Why I’m no longer a Christian

[DearthOfCouth]

lightbeamrider wrote:

<quoted text> If you don't have that established (existence of Jesus) <quoted text> You have zero evidence from history for any of this.
<quoted text> More reasonable than your imaginations with zero objective evidence.
<quoted text> Then you pontificate from a position of ignorance. <quoted text> If you are mistaken, what happens then?

In summary then you find my theory, which is that an ill-formed confederation of seers and opportunists arrived over a period of centuries at a mythology -- improbable and greatly in need of historical justification.

While you consider your theory, which includes a virgin birth, faith-healings, walking on water and rising from the dead -- perfectly reasonable and consistent with the facts as we know them.

Is that pretty much right?

[DearthOfCouth]

HipGnosis wrote:

<quoted text>the climactic leap over the sanctuary wall into real freedom of conscience. Permission to explore all metaphysical and/or philosophical vistas, or none at all. Celebrating science and reason over suspicion and ritual.

Oh.

THAT leap.

Silly question.

[Home Ohs]

DearthOfCouth wrote:

<quoted text>
Oh.
THAT leap.
Silly question.

Why don't you two get a room?

[Hey Pibbstraa]

Where's Wiggly?

[water_nymph]

lightbeamrider wrote:

<quoted text> Is that important? All the witnesses had to see was the results. They knew He was dead. They knew He was in the tomb. They knew the tomb was guarded.
<quoted text> The body of Jesus was in the tomb before the fact.

Eye witnesses are not all that important? Then why mention them?

Why not just say the tomb was guarded and leave it at that?

But to make it more believable, witnesses are mentioned. Yet these same witnesses that Christians use as proof are different in each gospel. You can't say there were witnesses as proof of your story and then come back when there is a conflict and say,'Oh, well. Witnesses don't matter. It was guarded.', because that story is in conflict also.

It's easier to just excuse away any differences than to ask why there are differences.

[BenAdam]

Black Thunder 42 wrote:

<quoted text>
With me there are NO sides...it is what it is...don't take my "cutting" your beliefs as "camping". I have no camps...only actuality the best as I can see it. So, there will surely be times that we will be sorely at odds-and then times that we will entirely agree.
There are times that I am entirely disgusted with the stupidity and/or ignorance and arrogance of the "god" camp and like to completely decimate and destroy the entire idiom from it's essence(including yours in the process),but what is the point? Could do more harm than good...so I just STFU...if you know what I mean...and I think you do.
"Truth" is not even a question of "sides" or "camps"...it is what it is...I know what it IS!

I know what you mean. Sadly as many atheists as theists are just bashing and trolling and "truth" doesn't enter into it at all.

I have no problem with intelligent "cutting" of my beliefs, I do so myself.

[water_nymph]

lightbeamrider wrote:

Or it could mean you don't know how to interpret history.

I think this pretty much says it all when it comes to fundamentalist views.

[Double Fine]

Qu_innocence wrote:

Hey Neighbors,
I have some real fine news for you. According to a real popular Christian Theology that says that, "Once you are saved, then you are always saved."
Then it doesn't matter if any of you have rejected the Lord Jesus Christ, left Jesus and Christianity behind for good... or become a witch... hey, don't even dare try to be holy... whatz that archaic word anyways? There is absolutely nothing you can do to thwart your Salvation. You will always be saved.
That's right.. it's a great deal isn't it? Come one, come all. Step right up... step right up. So live it up to your hearts' content! Do your best... you might as well...

Wooohooo!

So we get to have heavy metal music, wild sex with many partners, all kinds of drugs AND we get to go to heaven?? BONUS!

:)

[Double Fine]

The Gloop wrote:

<quoted text>Gloop!

Gloop!

How fares ye?

We missed you!

P.S Here is some other impostor turd in here, with the handle "Gioop", capitalising the I to make it look like you!

But we have him scouted.

Hope all is well, Gloopie

[Qu_innocence]

lightbeamrider wrote:

<quoted text> Well it is either that or get saved then probationary salvation. If you can lose your salvation then it is ultimately you who saves self and Jesus is just foreplay. Ultimately it is you who decides your fate through conduct. This is not to say you can get saved and go out and do what you want. It is to say that God who knows all things actual and possible and is outside space and time knows who are His and who are not.
Then it doesn't matter if any of you have rejected the Lord Jesus <quoted text> That is a distortion.

Good Morning L,

Jesus: "Your faith has saved you; go in peace."

Jesus said that quite a bit... so yes, it's by His Grace THROUGH FAITH that one is saved... not of works. And the works that is being talked about there is works of the Mosaic Law and there is history as to why the Apostle was talking to them as such.... because in the next verse the Apostle is talking about having good works. In another place, Faith without works is dead. And the works being discussed there are works of love. So yes, I would say that one needs to continue in Faith, Love and Obedience in order to be saved or they will fall away. the person that endures to the end will be saved. Now if one gets caught up in sin, if they genuinely repent then God will forgive them and they can get back into right relationship with God.

But no, the once saved always gospel teaches differently, so for those of you who once believed in Jesus at one time and now shake your fists brazingly towards heaven... there is absolutely nothing you can do about it. You're saved... hey I might as well party hardy also...

[Qu_innocence]

Double Fine wrote:

<quoted text>
Wooohooo!
So we get to have heavy metal music, wild sex with many partners, all kinds of drugs AND we get to go to heaven?? BONUS!
:)

Good Morning DF, yup. You now have a "perfect" excuse to do what ye will. If you believed in Jesus at one time and was saved... then there is absolutely nothing you can do about. It is already settled in heaven.. you're saved. At least that is what that particular once saved gospel teaches. Just make sure you practice safe sex though. Might as well go for it.

[Skombolis]

Rider on the Storm wrote:

<quoted text>
What do the girls think? Is skombo irresistable when he's angry?

I am sure they find you irresistible since you are broke. Get that business off the ground Larry and stop fixating on another dude on the internet! LOL

[Skombolis]

macumazahn wrote:

<quoted text>Was my name even mentioned before I stepped in?
I didn't notice.

Repeatedly

And since W-N doesn't allow someone to eve ignore her I see little recourse. That was the situation and you know it mac. Sure me qnd Nymph might have been able to sling a couple of shots across the bow and been done with it without dragging other people into it but she was having none of that. There would be no ending. Even now she continues to post me when I have ask her repeatedly not to and starts fights when my only contact is asking about her son.

Yes at some point I realized the choice allow her to constantly claim I said things I didn't and ignore post after post after post if I wanted to keep things fine with you but seems to me a friend that would require that wasn't a friend worth keeping. Don't get me wrong, I understand this was never a contest and why you did or didn't do what you did. But Nymph is a lot for a patient man to ignore. I held out for as long as I could mac because you are a good guy. But everybody has their limit.

[Qu_innocence]

Folks, those of you are sick and tired of Christians preaching the gospel in this thread... and me too. Well, to use a former linguistic term, "I can dig it."

Now, if one named Dr. REALITY ever comes in here again with his world-wide ministry and blast some of you for walking away from Jesus, why not just tell him, "Once saved, Always Saved"... that should do the trick, perhaps it would be like seeing a deer stuck in the road looking at headlights. Why any further time in discussing with them the finer points of your departure from Christianity?

[Skombolis]

Tide with Beach wrote:

An argument that I will make any time I can, is that faith does much more harm than good, and ridding ourselves of it would be awesome. Rational skepticism, and everywhere it leads, is simply better
<quoted text>
I base it on history.
<quoted text>
Ration skepticism gave us the scientific method. Applying faith to science never did work. Rational skepticism gave us humanist ethics. Removing faith from government gave us a free country.
<quoted text>
Societies with an atheist majority are doing great. Why don't you google them for yourself so you don't have to trust me.
It's not a guess. Faith is a hindrance to freethinking. It creates barriers in a persons brain that impede learning.
<quoted text>
No, I can just add up the deaths caused by faith based thinking. If you want to balance the scales with "Heaven" and "Eternal Souls", I will just laugh.
<quoted text>
Otay.

First of all remove religion and all the deaths you allude to simply fall to the next reason be it nationalism or racism or power or greed or whatever. If you think removing religion ushers in some type of utopia then I think you give man way too much credit and think him way too easily swayed from his true nature by religion then. Man has shown throughout history he is essentially greedy and violent. Removing religion won't change that.

Now as to what I am balancing the bad with, the bad that I think would simply manifest itself in different forms, no it is not heaven and saved souls. I am talking about the millions of good acts done every day by people motivated by God and conscience. The acts that don't make the newspapers or the evening news but make a difference in the lives of people all over the world. It is easy to box all Christians into some cookie-cutter right-wing tea-party extremists but most Christians are like offensive linesman in football. When they are doing their job correctly you hardly notice them. They don't get the press, they don't seek the spot-light, but they go about their business and try to do their job.

Now without religion would the same people be motivated to the same degree merely by conscience? I honestly don't think so. I think they would still do good things for people but I see how faith pushes people to go the extra mile. I see how it pushes me to drag my butt off the couch on my one day off to do something for someone else. And it isn't guilt or fear of not going to Heaven but it more of an awareness that i have a lot to be grateful for and God has helped me turn my life around and I feel like I owe it back. Now someone can mock that for whatever reason but the bottom line is things get done because of it.

You wanna go after the extremists and make sure the dividing line between faith and society stays drawn then fine, there are even some of us in the faith that agree. More that you might imagine actually. But you will never rid the world of faith so long as man believes there is a higher power than him and I don't see that ever changing. Might as well pick the battles you can win at election time or through legislation and try to improve on the system we have. Because God isn't going anywhere nor are the people who believe in him. But that doesn't mean there aren't a lot of us that want to see a better world/

(T) Peace

[Sister Kathryn Lust]

HipGnosis wrote:

DearthOfCouth wrote: Jesus ....was an itinerant young Rabbi wandering about first century Palestine, preaching some sort of new doctrine to Jews. The authorities perceived him to be a threat so they put his lights out.
Next, a diverse gaggle of cranks, shamans, spiritualists and one opportunistic Roman emperor cobbled together a makeshift, elaborate fable based upon local folklore, creative theology, pagan myths and old Jewish texts, packaged it all up and sold the whole bundle for political purposes. Rather successfully, it turns out.<quoted text>You like to toss the terms "subjective" and "objective" around, but you show right here your definitions are pretty loose, and not to be applied equally around. You cannot possibly have studied Christianity in any depth and be able to make this absolute statement above.
I feel that most of the absolutists I've met - and this is true for both ends of the spectrum - utilize a lot of buzzwords and icons with extreme emotional and symbolic values. They carry heavy connotations for the speaker, and so these folks easily fall into the rut of assuming they carry the same weight with others. In a discussion at Wednesday Bible Study, such a tacit understanding would have a place. Here, in a secular setting, your sacred chakras and symbols are just words and icons to me. To assume more is self-centered and arrogant, protestations of "agape love" notwithstanding.
Your conviction is quaint and all, but the tenets on which it's based carry no uber-mojo any further than your own nose.
"zero evidence". shee.....

There you are - how nice to see you again!
Hope your day is going well.
Miss you in La-la Land....

:)

[waaasssuuup]

New Age Spiritual Leader wrote:

<quoted text>
If you have never died and existed "eternally" - how can you be so sure it is the truth.
Wouldn't it be more honest for you to state:
- "I'd like to suppose that there is an eternal life, so why reject it?"
This, in fact, shows you are being honest enough to understand that you really don't know the "truth" and are forethright with saying it.
But on the flip-side, you really can't because you seem to prefer to mislead and misdirect otehrs into some sort of hypothesis of yours.

actually new ager - i have been crucified with Christ and was also reborn in Him. JESUS IS ETERNAL LIFE so i'm already experiencing it!

like i've bee trying to tell you; it's good over here and you're more than welcome to join us:)

[Sister Kathryn Lust]

Skombolis wrote:

<quoted text>
First of all remove religion and all the deaths you allude to simply fall to the next reason be it nationalism or racism or power or greed or whatever. If you think removing religion ushers in some type of utopia then I think you give man way too much credit and think him way too easily swayed from his true nature by religion then. Man has shown throughout history he is essentially greedy and violent. Removing religion won't change that.
Now as to what I am balancing the bad with, the bad that I think would simply manifest itself in different forms, no it is not heaven and saved souls. I am talking about the millions of good acts done every day by people motivated by God and conscience. The acts that don't make the newspapers or the evening news but make a difference in the lives of people all over the world. It is easy to box all Christians into some cookie-cutter right-wing tea-party extremists but most Christians are like offensive linesman in football. When they are doing their job correctly you hardly notice them. They don't get the press, they don't seek the spot-light, but they go about their business and try to do their job.
Now without religion would the same people be motivated to the same degree merely by conscience? I honestly don't think so. I think they would still do good things for people but I see how faith pushes people to go the extra mile. I see how it pushes me to drag my butt off the couch on my one day off to do something for someone else. And it isn't guilt or fear of not going to Heaven but it more of an awareness that i have a lot to be grateful for and God has helped me turn my life around and I feel like I owe it back. Now someone can mock that for whatever reason but the bottom line is things get done because of it.
You wanna go after the extremists and make sure the dividing line between faith and society stays drawn then fine, there are even some of us in the faith that agree. More that you might imagine actually. But you will never rid the world of faith so long as man believes there is a higher power than him and I don't see that ever changing. Might as well pick the battles you can win at election time or through legislation and try to improve on the system we have. Because God isn't going anywhere nor are the people who believe in him. But that doesn't mean there aren't a lot of us that want to see a better world/
(T) Peace

It appears all the good posters left the political threads, to land on the religious ones, post-election.

Bummer.

Miss you too.

:)

[waaasssuuup]

A Former Liberal wrote:

<quoted text>
Same here, Annie, same here. There's got to be something more, something greater than us. Because if there isn't, and mankind is the ultimate....ultimate whatever, then we're in big trouble.
It's much like believing in life on other planets; if we're truly alone in this universe, then--as Carl Sagan once said--"It's an awful lot of wasted space."

now we're getting somewhere!

the Bible has specific information on cosmic issues and you just have to humble yourself to receive it. carl (proud-heart) sagan couldn't seem to do that cuz he wanted to make a name for himself so he only came up with nonsense

[Skombolis]

Tide with Beach wrote:

<quoted text>
If we are defining what a god is, we don't have to say that a god must be a being that created us. It could be a god that was created at the same time as the universe, and is simply out enjoying the sights and sounds of outer space. A god could have made us, just for entertainment, if that's what it wanted. We don't know anything about any gods, or that they exist. All we have are people that want to believe in gods enough to make them u
"Not only are there living planets, there is a rare breed of living planet that eats other living planets. The living planets that don't eat other living planets don't like the living planets that would eat them, but they can't break orbit so there's no use worrying. At least that's what I believe, about living planets."
<quoted text>
Some god inventors may be aware that they are fabricating a belief, while others just believe they are writing down what the god in their head is telling them.
<quoted text>
If I was in an imaginary relationship, I might imagine it in many different ways.
I think you would love Buddha long time.
<quoted text>
I want to believe that I can turn rocks into gold. I can't believe that enough for it to actually happen. Beliefs tied to religions are those that seem to be justified, but you'll never be able to do any magic tricks with religious beliefs. There will be a lot of things happening in your brain that support your beliefs. Those can all be induced independent any gods. They can all happen to believers of just about any god. The religious experience is a human experience. The programming doesn't matter.
<quoted text>
You mean her?
<quoted text>
What if the god comes and poops on your head, and nothing else?

It isn't rationalizing, you can't ask questions in the context of faith-based beliefs and then when you get the response chide someone because what they say isn't fact. Of course what I believe is based on faith. You seem to feel it is some sort of inherently superior thing that you are unable to believe in anything greater than yourself. That you can't believe the universe started by anything other than chance. That you can't believe in anything that can't be empirically proven to you. You are welcome to that stance. You belong to about 5% of the population. You mock what you can't understand and that is the ability to trust in something greater than yourself.

And when you wonder why the discourse devolves look no further than comments like

"What if the god comes and poops on your head, and nothing else?"

I know a certain percentage of the peanut gallery on Topix will hoot and chair but I can get the same response by going on Jerry Springer and chanting "U-S-A, U-S-A". Now you may want to respond with something clever like you take it as seriously as the topic but man has followed his spiritual side since he can remember. You still have those that have left the faith who talk about their spiritual experiences. There are things in this universe beyond your understanding. The intelligent man knows there are things he can't know. Is that proof there is God? Of course not. But to mock a belief in a fundamental force behind the universe which you liken to chance is just silly imo. At best your answer to everything is you don't know. Hardly a position of superiority.