Since: Jul 08

Columbus, OH

#423527 Nov 29, 2012
Hidingfromyou wrote:
<quoted text>
You know Darwin initially called it "transmogrification" but that never caught on.
Yes it did:

http://www.lovine.com/hobbes/comics/transmogr...

Since: Mar 09

Location hidden

#423528 Nov 29, 2012
Hidingfromyou wrote:
<quoted text>
You're not the boss of me!
(sorry, sorry, I love that line)
Second, and this is obsessive on my part, it's important for me to be able to explain what adaptation is in the context of evolution simply. Grrrr! If I cannot do that, I'm failing.
LOL...that line will go down for the ages! Ok..let me see then if I can show u explained it to me when I am not just looking to pick things apart. Tell me if I am close. Adaption is not by species but by individual and while gentic the catalyst is environmental and the change that takes place is more limited in scope and only occurs long enough for the desired result. evolution on the other hand is by species and is ongoing although it can have periods of domancy and can bring about wholesale changes and the species will continue to gentically improve as a survival instinct unless wiped out. close or not even?

“Don't be so dichotomous.”

Since: Jan 11

Embrace the grey.

#423529 Nov 29, 2012
Skombolis wrote:
Hey Tide...gonna respond here for space. Now I have no idea what your orientation is and am totally confused! If straight I can see why others were offended. Me personally I was not. I think humor is an effective weapon when combatting bigotry. I agree with you........there was never a biblical justification to kill witches either. The Bible says "vengeance is mine sayeth the Lord" and tells us it rains on the just and un just alike and dont worry about who is getting punished for their sins as that is God's job as only God can see what's in the heart and our job is to love everyone. People have been twisting and isusing the Bible for a very long time. But that doesnt mean they were right or that the Bible actually gives them any reason to think those actions would be justified.(T) PEACE
The Bible also says to kill witches, but I guess on balance you can cancel that out with some other verse. So the key to interpreting the Bible is knowing the whole thing, canceling out contradictions and tallying up the winners? I'm just askin'.

If I was an average guy in Salem during the witch trials, and I was walking around reading my Bible, and I tripped on something, and looked up, and saw an old ugly lady stirring a huge pot, giving me the evil eye, and I got up and looked down at my Bible, and just happened to read, "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.", I'd be like, "Oh yeah, you're gonna get it now. You tripped me witch!"

The best way to control how someone interprets words is to be explicit and precise. Surely I would put some blame on the interpreters, the ones that killed the witches, but I would also hold responsible any person who passes this off as "safe advice". Don't give idiots a Bible, or kids, or anyone who isn't already against witch burning, just to be safe. If you have to give them something, give them something error-free. The Bible ain't it.

I've kinda gone off on a tangent, but you've made the point, correct me if I'm wrong, that there are "good" interpretations, and "bad" interpretations. I think we can go a bit further than that, and throw out the idea that homosexuality is a sin. We (Christian society) have thrown out the flat circle Earth idea. We (American Christians at least) have thrown out the witch burning idea. I'll hold the waste basket for you. Dunk it.
endtime

AOL

#423530 Nov 29, 2012
.

PROOF Obama's ReElection = ANTICHRIST_______

&fe ature=plcp

.

Since: Sep 10

Long Beach, CA

#423531 Nov 29, 2012
Tide with Beach wrote:
<quoted text>
The Bible also says to kill witches, but I guess on balance you can cancel that out with some other verse. So the key to interpreting the Bible is knowing the whole thing, canceling out contradictions and tallying up the winners? I'm just askin'.
If I was an average guy in Salem during the witch trials, and I was walking around reading my Bible, and I tripped on something, and looked up, and saw an old ugly lady stirring a huge pot, giving me the evil eye, and I got up and looked down at my Bible, and just happened to read, "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.", I'd be like, "Oh yeah, you're gonna get it now. You tripped me witch!"
The best way to control how someone interprets words is to be explicit and precise. Surely I would put some blame on the interpreters, the ones that killed the witches, but I would also hold responsible any person who passes this off as "safe advice". Don't give idiots a Bible, or kids, or anyone who isn't already against witch burning, just to be safe. If you have to give them something, give them something error-free. The Bible ain't it.
I've kinda gone off on a tangent, but you've made the point, correct me if I'm wrong, that there are "good" interpretations, and "bad" interpretations. I think we can go a bit further than that, and throw out the idea that homosexuality is a sin. We (Christian society) have thrown out the flat circle Earth idea. We (American Christians at least) have thrown out the witch burning idea. I'll hold the waste basket for you. Dunk it.
Well stated, Tide.

“Why does my ignorance”

Since: Mar 11

justify your deity?

#423532 Nov 29, 2012
Skombolis wrote:
<quoted text>LOL...that line will go down for the ages! Ok..let me see then if I can show u explained it to me when I am not just looking to pick things apart. Tell me if I am close. Adaption is not by species but by individual and while gentic the catalyst is environmental and the change that takes place is more limited in scope and only occurs long enough for the desired result. evolution on the other hand is by species and is ongoing although it can have periods of domancy and can bring about wholesale changes and the species will continue to gentically improve as a survival instinct unless wiped out. close or not even?
Thanks for indulging me! Close-ish.

1. adaptations are the product of evolution, specifically natural selection (there are lots of mechanisms of evolution, NS is one such)
2. they're mechanisms of problem solving.

3. evolution can't go dormant, although I suppose parts of it can appear to slow down or speed up. Speeding up happens after mass extinction events. Evolution appears to slow down when optimal morphologies (bodies) are reached - like crocodiles - but it continues at the genetic level (the genes of crocodiles, like all species, are constantly shuffling through differential reproduction - some crocs have more kids that survive to adulthood than others).

4. evolution isn't about "improvement" but "survival and reproduction." When the environment changes, the genes that produce the best survival and reproduction change. Evolution isn't going anywhere - it's a blind process. If you want to believe God is directing it, you'd have to conclude that we aren't smart enough to understand the plan, because it appears directionless.

5. It's more accurate to think of evolution occurring within populations as opposed to species, but this is a pretty sophisticated way of thinking about evo.

6. On a population scale, environmental stress pushes adaptive response. When the limits of those adaptations are met and exceeded, you get differential survival amongst individuals in the population.

If, for example, industrial pollution was so bad that almost everyone was sick, that our detoxification mechanisms were overwhelmed, we would see a difference in who was able to have kids. Those who could not would not be leaving genes behind in the next generation's gene pool. Those who could reproduce would be represented in the next gen, with those with the most children dominating that gene pool.

If a mutation improved the detoxification mechanisms (the adaptive response to industrial pollution), and those people were able to be healthy, have children more easily, etc., their mutation and genetics would come to dominate in the gene pool - their adaptive response would be "selected for."

7. Humans are currently undergoing high rates of evolutionary change. I always ask my students where it is taking place - in what populations. They almost never get it. The greatest amount of evolutionary change is happening in the genes that control our immune systems.

We live in a social hierarchy with those in wealthy, high tech nations on top, with those in poor nations on the bottom. The poor face all kinds of stressors, such as low nutrition, high parasite load, high pathogen load. In the extremes of poverty, there's more than 50% mortality rates. This is where most evolutionary change is ongoing in humans. People who can withstand the stressors from poverty and disease enough to reproduce, and those who cannot.

B/c humans engage in gene flow across all populations at high rates, the genes selected for in the most extreme populations migrates into all populations, and the human gene pool changes over time.

Evolution isn't nice. It isn't moral. It works through death and it's a failing in our global society that we are allowing people to live and die in extreme poverty.

“Don't be so dichotomous.”

Since: Jan 11

Embrace the grey.

#423533 Nov 29, 2012
Skombolis wrote:
Tide...gonna respond here again for space. Let me start by saying I think you make some valid points however I think we need to lookat them practically.
Okay. I'm really just putting stuff in this portion of my reply to separate the above quote from the quote below. I want you to know what my response is directed at. You'll see. You're almost there.
Skombolis wrote:
I dont think there is a single person who was fine with homosexuality and then read the Bible and suddenly had a problem with it.
Bullshit.

I don't even need to look for statistics. Ask some of the apostates in the threads. I had no problem with homosexuality prior to adopting Christianity, and struggled with the issue because it seemed illogical. Christianity made me homophobic for most of my high school years. I stopped going to church as a senior, and realized that I had been a total bigot to a few very nice people.
Skombolis wrote:
Now does singling it out over the other 665 sins listed in the bible promote bigotry? Absolutely. But is it inherently immoral for someone to be opposed to gay relationships?
Excellent question. I would only say that it is unethical to spread that belief to others. Holding it, keeping it to yourself, as long as you're straight, may cause no significant damage. In this context though, if you want to be ethical, and hold the belief, I just don't see the point in it.

I'm not really sure about things being inherently immoral. I'm thinking of two examples of things that probably are; rape and slavery. There may be others, but I can't see any possible justification for authoring either of these acts.
Skombolis wrote:
idk. Personally, whiile admittedly dont know why anybody cares what consenting adults do, think it is not immoral in and of itself. ppl cant help how they feel. I used to be predjudiced against homosexuality when I was a kid until education, science, life-experience, and many other factors made me realize i didnt have an issue with it. At the same time someone can say "well a lot of pedophiles are born gay so am I ok with that too so long as they dont act on it?" I am not comparing the two obviously but I have to admit it is a valid argument that being ...cont
Remember when I said "Bullshit", I hadn't read the above quote yet. I'm not going to go back and change it, as I think it illustrates a good point. You seem to have had a "change of heart" as well about homosexuality, yet you don't think other people can have them in the other direction due to religious indoctrination? I don't think that you do. I think you just spoke expediently, without really considering what you were saying. I want to give you the benefit of the doubt so it might be returned to me in the future. But if you want to play a game with me, which I LOVE TO DO, that would be fine too.

Since: Mar 09

Location hidden

#423534 Nov 29, 2012
Tide...i probably didnt explain that as well as I could of but you did hit on part of it when you said the key is to knowing the entire Bible. The verse about suffering no witch to live is in the Old Testament which is when we were under Mosaic Law. When Christ died on the Cross the Bible said he freed us from the curse of law. We are now in what is commonly known as The Age of Grace in which all commandments fall under the umbrella of what is known as the Two Greatest Commandments which are love God and love your neighbor as yourself. Jesus went on to explain what it means to love your neighbor in the parable of the Good Samritan. He also expanded on it. He said you have been taught love your neighbor and hate youjr enemy but I tell you to love ur enemy. That even sinners love those who love them back so one has accomplished nothing by doing this. It is by loving and praying even for our enemies do we remain obedient. Now it shows throughout Galatians, Hebrews, and John we are now under the NT..cont
beijair

Charlotte, NC

#423535 Nov 29, 2012
We need to place the lips of our minds around the engorged brain of babysan and suck out the juicy knowledge and swallow the goodness.
He completes me.

Since: Mar 09

Location hidden

#423536 Nov 29, 2012
Tide..cont...Jesus also finished in Matthew after explaining we must love our enemy that we also must forgive others if we want our Father in heaven to forgive us. Now it is true that Jesus said he did not come to abolish the law (old testament-mosaic law) but to fulfill it. He did so when he gave up his spirit on the cross and his last words were "it is finished". Now Christians who first received the Holy Spirit at Anotoch after the Crucifixtion were under the New Testament and the two greates commandments..love God and love thy neighbor. The Christians in salem in the 1700s were under the NT and had no right to burn witches. So understaning we follow the NT is why Christians should know they have no biblical justification to do anything but love. And Jesus said in the book of John he remains in his fathers love by being obedient and for us to remain in his we must also be obedient.(T) PEACE

Since: Mar 09

Location hidden

#423537 Nov 29, 2012
Tide....not even sure what the game is you think would even be a possibility but I can assure you I am talking from the heart. It is not that I dont think others can have a change of heart, in fact I specifically said some may feel how they do because they lack the necesarry experience or information that would help them see otherwise. and what you are talking about is someone teaching u hate. that is different than what I was talking about. I am saying nobody entering the faith imo who simply read the Bible and came to their own conclusions would suddenly turn bigot if they understood and wanted to follow the commandments of Christ. Sure if someone used the Bible to teach u to be homophobic or bigoted that was wrong but nothing in the nt would have allowed them to do that. and can ppl have a change of heart? sure. I did so y not others. I am saying I dont think until them someone is immoral because they sincerely believe homosexuality is an act peoploe shouldnt engage in. Ppl can say they think they ..cont

Since: Jul 08

Columbus, OH

#423538 Nov 29, 2012
endtime wrote:
.
PROOF Obama's ReElection = ANTICHRIST_______
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v =6z-v0iNbVBwXX&feature=plc p
.
What a hoot.

Four years ago, on this very thread, nuts were proclaiming end times if Obama were elected:

http://www.topix.com/forum/topstories/TSHQAVD...

I guess they meant if he were reelected in four more years, huh?

Dilbert.

“Why does my ignorance”

Since: Mar 11

justify your deity?

#423539 Nov 29, 2012
beijair wrote:
We need to place the lips of our minds around the engorged brain of babysan and suck out the juicy knowledge and swallow the goodness.
He completes me.
I'm a vampire.

Since: Mar 09

Location hidden

#423540 Nov 29, 2012
Tide...ppl can say they are wrong and disagree with them. But if a person with no malicious forethought cant help that they think it is wrong I dont think that qualifies them as immoral, especially if they say even though they disagree with it that everyone is deserving of love, respect, and equal treatment under the law. I just dont think we can hold someone morally accountable under tghat scenario.And if someone does truly feel God doesnt want us to do it but also knows God says love everyone and leave the judging to Him then I dont think they have done anything wrong. Bigots however and those who promote bigotry are immoral imo(T) PEACE

“Why does my ignorance”

Since: Mar 11

justify your deity?

#423541 Nov 29, 2012
Chess Jurist wrote:
hahaha!

“Don't be so dichotomous.”

Since: Jan 11

Embrace the grey.

#423542 Nov 29, 2012
Skombolis wrote:
Tide...cont...being born a certain way is a guaranteed free pass. And I dont think there is anything wrong with being born gay and I actually do feel bad if someone is born a pedophile...so long as they dont act on it as what a nightmare it would be to be a decent person and realize u were attracted to kids.
Let's also consider the past of a person, not just condition of birth. If homosexuality was the result of both nature/nurture, is it any more a choice than if it was just nature? A person that is homosexual today probably cannot choose to not be homosexual tomorrow. Even if everyone was born with only an attraction to the opposite sex, but some developed same sex attraction due to the environment in which they were raised, a condition mostly out of their control, how is that a choice?

Since you're not arguing that homosexuality is a choice, consider this a clarification of my position and arguments that I would make, if you were to offer the argument that homosexuality is a choice. I think it needs to be said, even if I don't need to tell you, others might find it not boring at all.
Skombolis wrote:
But I still think even thinking about it is wrong. Now I am kind of all over the place here but my point is do any of us have the right to set a universal morality for anybody else? If someone truly believes ppl arent supposed to be gay, they may be misguided or lacking information but does that make them immoral?
I'm here to educate (and learn, and have fun, and flirt). If someone can't "learn" about ethical behavior, we need to investigate why that is. I would suspect that they are unmovable because of indoctrinated beliefs. I can't answer your question. I would need specifics to do that.

Responsibility is a tricky issue. Ethics are tricky. Whenever we write down what we think is "right", and stop considering it, invariably, we do harm because of it. We should never stop considering the questions we have about what is right and wrong.
Skombolis wrote:
I dont think so unless they discriminate or show hate. definitely not if they still show love. now in a country where u can order ur bride thru the mail do i think there is something wrong with 2 guys who love each other? no. But that is my personal belief. I just happen to feel that way. does that make me morally superior to those who dont? i dont think so. again i think ppl cant help...cont
"morally superior" - There is a way to determine which value is objectively superior from an ethical standpoint.

The moral code that says non-believers should die at the hand of believers is inferior to the code that says non-believers should be treated with respect and tolerance.

Morality tells us things like, "It is wrong to steal.", but it doesn't tell us the same thing in a different way, "It is better to die, and let your family die, than it is to steal."

“Love much, trust none”

Since: Jul 11

There

#423543 Nov 29, 2012
Tide with Beach wrote:
<quoted text>
The Bible also says to kill witches,....
The Hebrew version (the original from 500 BC) says to kill astrologers and fortune tellers. Most likely a dig at their Babylonian cousins and recent (500BC) antagonists who were famous for astrological prophecies.

Now, how many Christians visit "fortune tellers" and read their horoscopes while foaming at the mouth about "witches".

If it wasn't so real and hateful it would be hilarious hypocricy.

“xcntrik.wordpres s.com”

Since: Mar 07

Location hidden

#423545 Nov 29, 2012
Jesus vs. Christianity

Matthew 5:17-20
船o not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets; I have come not to abolish but to fulfil. For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth pass away, not one letter, not one stroke of a letter, will pass from the law until all is accomplished.

Therefore, whoever breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, will be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

“Love much, trust none”

Since: Jul 11

There

#423546 Nov 29, 2012
Skombolis wrote:
....Jesus also finished in Matthew after explaining we must love our enemy that we also must forgive others if we want our Father in heaven to forgive us....
Which is antichristian isn't it ? Most Christian doctrines teach that forgiveness comes from "belief in ____" and that actions or thoughts (forgiving others) are not required.

This is why I maintain that Modern Christianity (Paulinism) contradicts Jesus' own teachings.

Since: Mar 09

Location hidden

#423547 Nov 29, 2012
Hiding....i think I understand the distinctions you are making. although I had a question. if it is a survival instinct, how can it not be considered an improvement? wouldnt by definition anything that was spurred on to ensure survival be an improvement? or are you saying that while survival may have been the initiqal catalyst there is no guarantee evolution will result in a better species and some species while trying tol evolve to survive might in actuality evolve into something more suceptible to extinction?

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