Why I’m no longer a Christian

Since: Mar 09

Location hidden

#423364 Nov 29, 2012
Hidingfromyou wrote:
<quoted text>
It's directly measurable. Mutation is ongoing, allelic frequency changes in gene pools with every generation. In no species does gene frequency not change with every generation.
I can provide countless research papers here, if you like.
<quoted text>
No, it doesn't. You're misinformed.
<quoted text>
If we have the gene pool at Point A and Point Z, we can. It is being done in laboratories right now. If we have the genetic material from now dead individuals and compare them to living ones, we can. That has been done in humans a number of times. Now that we can measure DNA in ancient bones, we can do this. I'm actually working on a paper that relies on this method to discuss the evolution of vitamin A deficiency in a malaria population from 12 000 years ago.
<quoted text>
Of course I can't. Who can see the environment 1 million years from now?
I'd guess better metabolic processes to detoxify industrial pollution and plastics will evolve.
<quoted text>
Humans are continuing to evolve - this is directly measurable and observable. There's no guesswork here, it is happening. Humans are evolving most rapidly in our immune systems, followed by our central nervous systems and finally our physical stature.
<quoted text>
No. I'm a specialist in the field and you know almost nothing about it. It's not your fault. You just don't know what you're talking about.
I know enough to know you are contradicting yourself.

I said "You have no way of predicting what the next change will be in millions of years or from what I can see, any reason to say it is a certainty there will be one".

And you said "Of course I can't. Who can see the environment 1 million years from now?"

I said you can't even say with any certainly there will be any more changes and you agreed yet you maintain evolution is ongoing. That is a contradiction.

You have yet to provide a single piece of information to show why you believe evolution is ongoing

I know enough to know that

Since: Mar 09

Location hidden

#423365 Nov 29, 2012
Hidingfromyou wrote:
<quoted text>
Evolution is "allelic frequency change in gene pools, over time."
1. It only takes one generation, not millions of years (gross morphological evolution can take a long time, but it can also take a short time - as little as 5000 years)
2. We can follow it from A-Z if we can measure the gene pools at point A and point Z (we can do this today, for example, and do).
3. Adaptations are genetically coded mechanisms of solving problems. I tried to explain homeostasis above. In other words, adaptations have limits. When those limits are reached, the coping mechanisms fail, and either a) evolution occurs or b) extinction occurs.
Your question needs to be more specific to answer it - there's a lot about human morphological change in the last 200 000 years that was due to adaption, and a lot due to evolution.
Here's a model:
stressor=>adaptation=>ho meostasis=>most individuals ok
continued stressor=>adaptation=>st ressor increases=>some individuals live or die
mutation hits, modifying the adaptation to better deal with the stressor, mutant individuals survive and reproduce well while previous ones do less well = evolution
Almost all evolution by natural selection works like this.
How can it be any more specific than what proof is there that these changes are not simply adaptation compared to the claim that they are really part of a larger ongoing evolution?

I think I am beginning to see the problem and that is you have no basis for claiming evolution is ongoing. It is absurd to think anyone else could think they could prove something like that. Of course you can't know if evolution, something that takes millions of years per change and something you can't follow sequentially, is ongoing. There is no possible way that I have seen yet you can know that we haven't stopped evolving, if that is what even happened.

What do you base your position on that evolution is ongoing? How can you know that? How can know some things don't undergo 1 change or a dozen changes and stop? You are making up your own facts and then calling other people uninformed. While it is true i don't know a lot about this, I know when I am not getting an answer

Since: Mar 09

Location hidden

#423366 Nov 29, 2012
Catcher1 wrote:
<quoted text>
Hahaha.
You really are a lost cause.
Hey....Catcher....what a surprise

Since: Mar 09

Location hidden

#423367 Nov 29, 2012
Hidingfromyou wrote:
<quoted text>
Well you've definitely clarified that your religion is anti-gay.
It is also anti-hate and anti-prejudice and anti-bigotry.

And anybody that blames the Bible is anti-smart

I am being anti-serious by using the word anti-smart. I am just trying to find whatever clueless wavelength you are on hoping something gets thru to you.

Since: Mar 09

Location hidden

#423368 Nov 29, 2012
Hidingfromyou wrote:
<quoted text>
Well, ok, I misunderstood you. Part of that was b/c up until now, you refused to answer me directly and say what you believe, that homosexuality is a sin.
Are you insane? My very first post listed it as a sin of the flesh and I told you the problem is when someone tries to claim it is any worse than their own sins
Hidingfromyou wrote:
<quoted text>
If the Bible lists homosexuality as a sin - and G_O_D disagrees with you here, I defer to his knowledge, it's impeccable - then your religion is bigoted. There's no two ways about that. You can't condemn a behavior that causes no harm between two adults as sinful and pretend that the religion is about loving all people.
That's just your mental gymnastics to justify telling homosexuals they're sinners but you love them anyways.
Are you serious? You are incapable of loving someone if anything they do you think is wrong? I am sorry you are that narrow-minded and hypocritical. Jesus would have told you otherwise

“A sentient umbrella speaks”

Since: Mar 11

Some stable somewhere

#423369 Nov 29, 2012
Skombolis wrote:
<quoted text>
I know enough to know you are contradicting yourself.
I said "You have no way of predicting what the next change will be in millions of years or from what I can see, any reason to say it is a certainty there will be one".
And you said "Of course I can't. Who can see the environment 1 million years from now?"
I said you can't even say with any certainly there will be any more changes and you agreed yet you maintain evolution is ongoing. That is a contradiction.
You have yet to provide a single piece of information to show why you believe evolution is ongoing
I know enough to know that
I said no contradiction. Mutation is ongoing, evolution is ongoing. So what that I can't tell you where it's going?

I've said, over and over, that mutation is ongoing. What part about that don't you understand? Every new individual has mutations - in every generation the gene pool changes. That's evolution.

How is this difficult for you? Evolution is allelic frequency change in a gene pool over time.

Where in that does it say I should be able to predict evolution? How could I possibly predict evolution? Why are these your requirements for me telling you that evolution is ongoing?

Let's simplify: evolution=gene changes in a gene pool, over time

new mutation = new gene in gene pool = evolution

(mutation never stops)
(that means evolution never stops)
(the environment never stops changing)
(that means environmental selection pressures never stop changing)
(that means natural selection never stops)
(that means evolution is ongoing)

I honestly can't dumb it down more than that. Sorry if you don't understand. It's really not that hard.

Since: Mar 09

Location hidden

#423370 Nov 29, 2012
Rider on the Storm wrote:
<quoted text>

Whatever you need to think to get you through another of your miserable days on topix.
LOL, I am not the failed businessman who has spent over a year following me around to argue on an Internt chat-room. I think literally one single post in over a year did I write you first. other than that you just follow and follow and follow.

My brother runs his own business and made well over 6 figures last year and I know he would look at me like i was crazy if I asked him if he had the time to do what you do and play on the internet and engage in year long internet grudges. But he runs a successful business.

It is ok that you have all this free time because your business is doing terrible. Some people just aren't gifted with the know-how to run their own business. I am glad I don't have to as I earn a decent living and will be going to work in a few hours. Enjoy your soap operas and bon-bons and stalking people on Topix. Apparently you have the time!

Since: Mar 09

Location hidden

#423371 Nov 29, 2012
Hidingfromyou wrote:
Good night all, I'm going to sleep. Don't evolve while I'm gone! We can't have that.
I guess that's one way to not answer!

When you wake up, my question will still be here!

“A sentient umbrella speaks”

Since: Mar 11

Some stable somewhere

#423372 Nov 29, 2012
Skombolis wrote:
How can it be any more specific than what proof is there that these changes are not simply adaptation compared to the claim that they are really part of a larger ongoing evolution?
The actual genes change as opposed to a developmental change.
I think I am beginning to see the problem and that is you have no basis for claiming evolution is ongoing. It is absurd to think anyone else could think they could prove something like that.
hahahaha!!!

omg, that's great. Go read a textbook!

Dude, it's proved literally all the time. Here, first line from my first google scholar hit:

"The synthetic theory of evolution defines evolution as change in gene frequencies from generation to generation, within a breeding population (see Chapter 2 of the present volume). Such change results from four forces, three of which change the frequencies of"

http://books.google.co.jp/books...

Next:

"Microcephalin, a Gene Regulating Brain Size, Continues to Evolve Adaptively in Humans"

http://www.sciencemag.org/content/309/5741/17...

I could do this all day, Skom.

"Ongoing Adaptive Evolution of ASPM, a Brain Size Determinant in Homo sapiens"

http://www.eebweb.arizona.edu/faculty/nachman...

Just so you know it's not just humans:

"Ongoing evolution of the potato on the altiplano of western Bolivia"

http://www.springerlink.com/content/g30813g25...
Of course you can't know if evolution, something that takes millions of years per change and something you can't follow sequentially, is ongoing. There is no possible way that I have seen yet you can know that we haven't stopped evolving, if that is what even happened.
What do you base your position on that evolution is ongoing? How can you know that? How can know some things don't undergo 1 change or a dozen changes and stop? You are making up your own facts and then calling other people uninformed. While it is true i don't know a lot about this, I know when I am not getting an answer
Mutation is ongoing. Environmental change is ongoing.

What does that mean, Skom? It means that gene frequencies in gene pools will change over time.

There are no other alternatives. None. The only way evolution would stop is if every single reproducing adult had an identical number of children, who had equal access to resources, who all produced an identical number of children, each of which was a clone of the parent. That or extinction.

Repeat after me:

evolution is allelic frequency change in gene pools, over time.

("allele" is a technical word for "gene")

I'm sorry. I cannot make this simpler for you. If you cannot understand, you never will.

“A sentient umbrella speaks”

Since: Mar 11

Some stable somewhere

#423373 Nov 29, 2012
Skombolis wrote:
<quoted text>
I guess that's one way to not answer!
When you wake up, my question will still be here!
I've tried to answer your questions, Skom, but you really don't like the answers.

Mutation = ongoing therefore evolution = ongoing

“A sentient umbrella speaks”

Since: Mar 11

Some stable somewhere

#423374 Nov 29, 2012
Hidingfromyou wrote:
Well you've definitely clarified that your religion is anti-gay.
Skombolis wrote:
<quoted text>
It is also anti-hate and anti-prejudice and anti-bigotry.
And anybody that blames the Bible is anti-smart
I am being anti-serious by using the word anti-smart. I am just trying to find whatever clueless wavelength you are on hoping something gets thru to you.
Keyword above "also."

Your religion lays the foundation of being anti-gay. Believers take it from there. Yes, we can blame the Bible if what you said is correct, and not what G_O_D said. I believe him over you though because his knowledge of the Bible has been demonstrated over and over and you seem to have great difficulties understanding rather simple arguments.

And then you get all angry, lose your cool and insult to no end. Well, I give it right back to you.

Since: Mar 09

Location hidden

#423375 Nov 29, 2012
Hidingfromyou wrote:
<quoted text>
I've tried to answer your questions, Skom, but you really don't like the answers.
Mutation = ongoing therefore evolution = ongoing
I know that is what you believe. You haven't shown any basis for it

“A sentient umbrella speaks”

Since: Mar 11

Some stable somewhere

#423376 Nov 29, 2012
Skombolis wrote:
<quoted text>
Are you insane? My very first post listed it as a sin of the flesh and I told you the problem is when someone tries to claim it is any worse than their own sins
<quoted text>
Are you serious? You are incapable of loving someone if anything they do you think is wrong? I am sorry you are that narrow-minded and hypocritical. Jesus would have told you otherwise
You are the one telling gays "you are wrong. Fundamentally wrong" not me. Your mental gymnastics to make yourself feel not-bigoted doesn't change that you are slighting them from the first.

I am quite capable of loving people who sometimes make mistakes. That's totally different - you are labeling someone entirely wrong and then telling them "that's ok, because I forgive you for being you, a wrong thing."

Don't you realize you sound like someone pulling over their minority friend and saying "you're not like the other ones. You're better, despite your inborn sin."

It's quite disgusting and I hope you move beyond it. I hope you wake up one day and understand how your position demeans humanity. For we are not created sick and depraved - gays are not innately sinful - that is your religion's mechanism of manipulation. It creates social hierarchies of imagined morality that hurt people. Your religion produces and reproduces structural violence.

You can do better, Skom. I really hope you can do better.

Since: Mar 09

Location hidden

#423377 Nov 29, 2012
Hidingfromyou wrote:
<quoted text>
The actual genes change as opposed to a developmental change.
<quoted text>
hahahaha!!!
omg, that's great. Go read a textbook!
Dude, it's proved literally all the time. Here, first line from my first google scholar hit:
"The synthetic theory of evolution defines evolution as change in gene frequencies from generation to generation, within a breeding population (see Chapter 2 of the present volume). Such change results from four forces, three of which change the frequencies of"
http://books.google.co.jp/books...
Next:
"Microcephalin, a Gene Regulating Brain Size, Continues to Evolve Adaptively in Humans"
http://www.sciencemag.org/content/309/5741/17...
I could do this all day, Skom.
"Ongoing Adaptive Evolution of ASPM, a Brain Size Determinant in Homo sapiens"
http://www.eebweb.arizona.edu/faculty/nachman...
Just so you know it's not just humans:
"Ongoing evolution of the potato on the altiplano of western Bolivia"
http://www.springerlink.com/content/g30813g25...
<quoted text>
Mutation is ongoing. Environmental change is ongoing.
What does that mean, Skom? It means that gene frequencies in gene pools will change over time.
There are no other alternatives. None. The only way evolution would stop is if every single reproducing adult had an identical number of children, who had equal access to resources, who all produced an identical number of children, each of which was a clone of the parent. That or extinction.
Repeat after me:
evolution is allelic frequency change in gene pools, over time.
("allele" is a technical word for "gene")
I'm sorry. I cannot make this simpler for you. If you cannot understand, you never will.
You are claiming these are proven facts?

Aren't you the one that said science doesn't prove facts?

But suddenly when you want to say evolution is ongoing it is?

Don't link books to me I can't read online. I am sure you didn't come up with your belief because of those books either.

Just explain it in simple laymen terms. How can you know evolution doesn't stop at some point?

There is no way you can know that. That is a fact.

Since: Mar 09

Location hidden

#423378 Nov 29, 2012
Hidingfromyou wrote:
<quoted text>
<quoted text>
Keyword above "also."
Your religion lays the foundation of being anti-gay. Believers take it from there. Yes, we can blame the Bible if what you said is correct, and not what G_O_D said. I believe him over you though because his knowledge of the Bible has been demonstrated over and over and you seem to have great difficulties understanding rather simple arguments.
And then you get all angry, lose your cool and insult to no end. Well, I give it right back to you.
I feel sorry for you that you think someone can't feel what someone does is wrong without hating that person or hypocritically judging them.

“A sentient umbrella speaks”

Since: Mar 11

Some stable somewhere

#423379 Nov 29, 2012
Skombolis wrote:
<quoted text>
I know that is what you believe. You haven't shown any basis for it
Above, three scientific research papers that demonstrate what I'm talking about. Just 'cause you skipped it doesn't mean I didn't post it.

Here's some more:

Ongoing Evolution of Strand Composition in Bacterial Genomes

http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/18/9/17...

Comparative Genomics of BCG Vaccines by Whole-Genome DNA Microarray

"...this is evidence for the ongoing evolution of BCG strains since their original derivation."

http://www.sciencemag.org/content/284/5419/15...

"Evolution on ecological time-scales"

"Ecologically significant evolutionary change, occurring over tens of generations or fewer, is now widely documented in nature."

http://redpath-staff.mcgill.ca/hendry/Carroll...

Biological and biomedical implications of the co-evolution of pathogens and their hosts

http://lac-repo-live7.is.ed.ac.uk/handle/1842...

Localizing Recent Adaptive Evolution in the Human Genome

http://www.plosgenetics.org/article/info%3Ado...

"We identify 101 regions of the human genome with very strong evidence (p < 10&#8722;5) of a recent selective sweep and where our estimate of the position of the selective sweep falls within 100 kb of a known gene. Within these regions, genes of biological interest include genes in pigmentation pathways, components of the dystrophin protein complex, clusters of olfactory receptors, genes involved in nervous system development and function, immune system genes, and heat shock genes. We also observe consistent evidence of selective sweeps in centromeric regions. In general, we find that recent adaptation is strikingly pervasive in the human genome, with as much as 10% of the genome affected by linkage to a selective sweep."

So...whatever dude. You can continue to pretend evolution isn't ongoing. I can show you more evidence - there are hundreds of thousands of these research papers.

But why should I bother if you're going to be willfully ignorant?

Since: Mar 09

Location hidden

#423380 Nov 29, 2012
Hidingfromyou wrote:
<quoted text>
You are the one telling gays "you are wrong. Fundamentally wrong" not me. Your mental gymnastics to make yourself feel not-bigoted doesn't change that you are slighting them from the first.
I am quite capable of loving people who sometimes make mistakes. That's totally different - you are labeling someone entirely wrong and then telling them "that's ok, because I forgive you for being you, a wrong thing."
Don't you realize you sound like someone pulling over their minority friend and saying "you're not like the other ones. You're better, despite your inborn sin."
It's quite disgusting and I hope you move beyond it. I hope you wake up one day and understand how your position demeans humanity. For we are not created sick and depraved - gays are not innately sinful - that is your religion's mechanism of manipulation. It creates social hierarchies of imagined morality that hurt people. Your religion produces and reproduces structural violence.
You can do better, Skom. I really hope you can do better.
You are changing the subject. The conversation was is it the Bible's fault if someone doesn't follow it properly and uses it for justification to hate when it gives them no such authority. The answer is NO.

Of course someone who is gay would be offended by the beliefs that to be so is wrong. But Christians have no right to be in anyone's face about their sins anyway unless they are prepared for the same for their own sins, which they aren't

And people don't need your permission to think homosexuality is wrong nor does that belief make them immoral. Personally I don't care either way and have my own stuff to worry about. But so long as they treat all people with love and kindness people have aright to think however they want. You don't get to dictate universal morality to people.

But again, is there any biblical justification for hate and bigotry? The answer is NO. So you can't blame it. That is common sense

“A sentient umbrella speaks”

Since: Mar 11

Some stable somewhere

#423381 Nov 29, 2012
Skombolis wrote:
<quoted text>
You are claiming these are proven facts?
Aren't you the one that said science doesn't prove facts?
But suddenly when you want to say evolution is ongoing it is?
Don't link books to me I can't read online. I am sure you didn't come up with your belief because of those books either.
Just explain it in simple laymen terms. How can you know evolution doesn't stop at some point?
There is no way you can know that. That is a fact.
Wow, I give you research articles and you come back with goal post moving and arguing over definitions?

1. mutation is ongoing. It never stops.
2. evolution is "allelic frequency change in gene pools, over time"
3. that makes evolution ongoing

Skom, evolution stops when extinction happens.

If you can't understand what I've written - it's in laymen's terms, as I've done over and over for you - you're either too stupid or willfully stupid.

Not my problem.

“Live Love Laugh”

Since: Aug 07

Rings of Saturn Emporium

#423382 Nov 29, 2012
waaasssuuup wrote:
<quoted text>
1 more time: I DON'T CONDEMN ANYBODY!!!
will you please stop condemning christianity?:)
You condemn people every time you say homosexuality is a sin. You condemn people every time you tell them they have to 'get right with God'. You condemn people every time you tell them they are sinners. So don't go there.

“Live Love Laugh”

Since: Aug 07

Rings of Saturn Emporium

#423383 Nov 29, 2012
waaasssuuup wrote:
<quoted text>
i can see that we've been born morally corrupt and that's why we need to be born-again.
can you NOT see this??? read your local paper.....
This is condemning someone.

You have no idea what the words 'born again' mean or you wouldn't receive such derision here.

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