Why Iím no longer a Christian

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Since: Jul 08

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#423226
Nov 28, 2012
 
Skombolis wrote:
Edit New Age
Sorry, mneant to say if your business is run solely by those of faith AND all their employess are of the same faith as well. Obviously just cause the owner does or doesn't believe something he shouldn't be able to force his beliefs on others or withhold benefits from those who don't share his beliefs.
But at the same if an entire group feels a certain way for religious reasons then I don't think the government should be able to force them to do something they feel is against their beliefs. Within reason of course. Obviously someone can't say, well my religion tells me it is wrong to pay my employees their salary is something like that which is in violation of law and contract.
But if I owed a business put together for religious reasons and with people who shared my beliefs or said they did then no way would I pay for women to get ru40 or any other 'morning after' pill as I am against abortion and I think it is only fair I wouldn't have to if. But I understand why I would be opening myself up to the liability if I didn't hire based on belief but then tried not to pay for something claiming belief
(T0 Peace
I think what you are saying is that the government needs a "compelling interest" to proscribe behavior based on well-established religious principles. And I believe that was the test historically applied -- until the 1990 US Supreme Court case that allowed states to ban the use of peyote by Native Americans in religious rituals.

It's been awhile since I paid much attention to this, so someone may have better info than I do.

Since: Jul 08

Columbus, OH

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#423227
Nov 28, 2012
 

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Chess Jurist wrote:
<quoted text>
....
It's been awhile since I paid much attention to this, so someone may have better info than I do.
Or a better memory.

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#423228
Nov 28, 2012
 
water_nymph wrote:
<quoted text> Skombolis, the employer is not paying for these things. The Insurance companies are. But I agree that no one should be forced to take this action if it is against what they believe in.
I think if insurance companies and Medicare cover Viagra and other like drugs, they should cover birth control for women though. It's not either/or. It should be that they either cover both, or neither.
Employers pay the health-care premiums, in total or in part, for their employees. So they are paying for it too. And if they don't comply they are fined

"Church-affiliated universities, hospitals and charities would not have to provide or pay for such coverage. Instead, the White House said, coverage for birth control could be offered to women directly by their employersí insurance companies,ďwith no role for religious employers who oppose contraception.Ē

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#423230
Nov 28, 2012
 
Chess Jurist wrote:
<quoted text>
I think what you are saying is that the government needs a "compelling interest" to proscribe behavior based on well-established religious principles. And I believe that was the test historically applied -- until the 1990 US Supreme Court case that allowed states to ban the use of peyote by Native Americans in religious rituals.
It's been awhile since I paid much attention to this, so someone may have better info than I do.
Exactly

I didn't know that was the case but definitely the principle i was referring to

(T) Peace

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Since: Jul 07

every moment

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#423231
Nov 28, 2012
 

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Skombolis wrote:
<quoted text>As for the quotes I never said it summed up their entire lives. But it spoke specifically to what they based their personal morals on and that they felt society suffered when moving away from God. 2 of the quotes had the entire text. The other i shortened from a much longer paragraph just because it was pretty much reiterating the same things. I think it is very biased to selectively decide quotes basically cherry-picked and meaningless when they say something someone doesn't like unless you never rely on quotes for this reason then I would say fair enough. Quotes generally give a good idea of how someone feels about a specific subject. I don't think we need their life's work to get a pretty good idea of how they feel based on a specific quote

As to whether or not their idea of God was the same as mine is not relevant to me. I don't need anybody else's beliefs to mirror mine. But I respect the fact that these men of power recognized their is a higher power to the universe that men should answer to and that moving away from God can negatively impact us as a society. I agree with that. Organized religion may be a different argument but not God.

I still don't see why you feel those quotes are misleading. Can you please provide me other information for context so I can see why you think that? Thanks
Hope your day has been a good one
(T) Peace
I don't think they are misleading at all in and of themselves. I feel they are misleading in the context of what you gleaned from them based on what you expressed. You said that they showed that these people were "very religious". I could easily present opposing "quotes" that showed that many of them were suspicious, even contemptuous, of an over-reliance on religion, but as I said, I think it is fruitless to play dueling quotations. My best reply is the same as I said before - if one desires to make a per-determined point, than by all means, cherry-pick with abandon. It is the easiest thing in the world, not to say intellectually lazy.

I am certain that you could quote-mine my offerings over time on topix and depict me as a KJV-breathing evangelist. Likewise with yours - I could make you out to be whatever I desire to "prove" with careful selection. That's why I say what I've said from the start - if one >reallY< wants to know, one would look into their overall body of work. Spiritual expression in people who have given the matter any depth of study and thought at all is always a nuanced, often conflicted, and deeply personal undertaking. For instance (as I said) if you were to read Franklin's autobiography, you would be hard-pressed to call him "very religious". Likewise, to varying degrees, with Washington, Jefferson, Hamilton, Adams, Madison, and others. Thomas Paine was indispensable to our nation's independence, but his religious views were considered so radical that posterity has labeled him an atheist, with the slur under-scored with select "quotes", but Paine was nothing of the kind. Patrick Henry, otoh, was what you might call "very religious", yet you'll note he wasn't involved in the Constitution, and he was deeply critical of the result. Sam Adams is another - very instrumental in the nation's birth, but nowhere to be found in it's establishment.

“Are you a Problem or Solution?”

Since: Mar 09

Ann Arbor, MI

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#423232
Nov 28, 2012
 
AnnieJ wrote:
<quoted text>
Are you serious??? Who is we???
I have no desire to take away anyone's right to believe as they choose. The very same right that allows them to believe as they choose also affords me the same right to my beliefs.
We talk about how "ugly" some Christians are and fail to look at ourselves. Your post is just as hate filled as the one that you responded to. We complain when they don't call out their fellow believers for the things that they say and then we turn a blind eye to the other side of the fence simply because that is where we are standing.
I will stand for their right to believe as they choose even though I do not agree with some of their beliefs. It would be nice if some of them were a little kinder but that goes for both sides.
I used to think that I didn't care how someone else believed...that it didn't affect me. However in recent years I have come to believe that it does. Hatred...violence...negativity ...lack of compassion no matter what side of the fence it comes from affects us all.
I don't know who "we" is...but please...don't include me in that group.
On a side note...I am well aware that the poster (most Christians) that you responded to would not stand up for my right to believe as I choose. Obviously you wouldn't either unless I believed the same as you.
When I read your post...I couldn't help but think...if you took the words Christian and Dawkins and changed them to non-believers/agnostic/atheist and God...it would sound like the posts that many of the "Christians" that have been posting here recently.
Hatred is hatred no matter where is originates.
Beautifully stated in my opinion AnnieJ. I know that I do not tend to comment on what you say, but I always find it to be a pleasure to read what you write here. I hope that all is well in your slice of the world.

Since: Jul 08

Columbus, OH

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#423233
Nov 28, 2012
 
Skombolis wrote:
<quoted text>
Exactly
I didn't know that was the case but definitely the principle i was referring to
(T) Peace
Thank you.

But it doesn't answer the question; it merely frames it.

“Are you a Problem or Solution?”

Since: Mar 09

Ann Arbor, MI

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#423234
Nov 28, 2012
 
lightbeamrider wrote:
<quoted text> Functioning adults know the difference between hostile opinion and truth claims. Christian claims could be childish, self centered?(Don't know where you claim that since to offer is extended to everybody, obviously you reject based on your own choice) and escapist in your opinion and be objectively true at the same time. Your opinion does not alter truth one bit. If you are correct in your assessement then the claims of Christ are false. To vilify Christians does not make the truth claims of Christ automatically false. Functioning adults know that also.
I think you may want to go back and read his post again while taking into account, how the person he was replying to chooses to express his faith on here.

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#423235
Nov 28, 2012
 

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Kaitlin the Wolf Witch wrote:
<quoted text>
No he didn't. He's a myth.
Just Results wrote:
<quoted text>
You're very delusional.
Jesus never said anything; he's a myth.

Live with it.

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#423236
Nov 28, 2012
 

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Just Results wrote:
<quoted text>
I couldn't agree more.
Still making up posts, viking, so you can have something to knock down? You really are a pathetic christian.

“Don't be so dichotomous.”

Since: Jan 11

Embrace the grey.

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#423237
Nov 28, 2012
 
HipGnosis wrote:
<quoted text>I don't think they are misleading at all in and of themselves. I feel they are misleading in the context of what you gleaned from them based on what you expressed. You said that they showed that these people were "very religious". I could easily present opposing "quotes" that showed that many of them were suspicious, even contemptuous, of an over-reliance on religion, but as I said, I think it is fruitless to play dueling quotations. My best reply is the same as I said before - if one desires to make a per-determined point, than by all means, cherry-pick with abandon. It is the easiest thing in the world, not to say intellectually lazy.
I am certain that you could quote-mine my offerings over time on topix and depict me as a KJV-breathing evangelist. Likewise with yours - I could make you out to be whatever I desire to "prove" with careful selection. That's why I say what I've said from the start - if one >reallY< wants to know, one would look into their overall body of work. Spiritual expression in people who have given the matter any depth of study and thought at all is always a nuanced, often conflicted, and deeply personal undertaking. For instance (as I said) if you were to read Franklin's autobiography, you would be hard-pressed to call him "very religious". Likewise, to varying degrees, with Washington, Jefferson, Hamilton, Adams, Madison, and others. Thomas Paine was indispensable to our nation's independence, but his religious views were considered so radical that posterity has labeled him an atheist, with the slur under-scored with select "quotes", but Paine was nothing of the kind. Patrick Henry, otoh, was what you might call "very religious", yet you'll note he wasn't involved in the Constitution, and he was deeply critical of the result. Sam Adams is another - very instrumental in the nation's birth, but nowhere to be found in it's establishment.
Did you see the HBO mini series, "John Adams"?

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#423238
Nov 28, 2012
 

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Just Results wrote:
<quoted text>
That's why I'm a Christian fighting against the abuse and stench of atheism which you practice so well.
DearthOfCouth wrote:
<quoted text>
Is that what you're doing here?
"Fighting?"
JR Viking really is full of himself, isn't he?

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#423239
Nov 28, 2012
 

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waaasssuuup wrote:
<quoted text>
to be a Christian to me means to be justified by faith in Jesus.
i'm afraid that to be a 'christian' to most of christendom means to follow Jesus' teachings, as if Jesus was only a great teacher/person.
please consider how abel, abraham, isaac, jacob, david...etc obtained favor from God, whether it came through their own goodness/works or by believing God, which was accounted to them as righteousness:)
They didn't; your buybull is nothing but a book of fairytales and lies.

Live with it.

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#423240
Nov 28, 2012
 

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Mary Palm wrote:
<quoted text>You want men sent over, brokeback? That explains so much.
You're barking up the wrong tree with your overt misogyny. It doesn't insult me. It makes me feel sorry for you because I know you have such a deep seated animosity towards women because you have endured their lifelong rejection. I would pity you, but, you brought it on yourself. Keep going, though. The thought of you never being able to touch a willing woman pleases me.
waaasssuuup wrote:
<quoted text>
"your overt misogyny"?!
why do i seem disrespectful to women, cuz i don't condone female superiority like the rest of our culture does?
You disrespect women when you lie about them, as you constantly do. Women are not claiming superiority; we demand equal treatment under the law. You are opposed to equal treatment under the law.

You are a misogynist and a hypocrite--and a prick.

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#423241
Nov 28, 2012
 

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HipGnosis wrote:
<quoted text>I don't think they are misleading at all in and of themselves. I feel they are misleading in the context of what you gleaned from them based on what you expressed. You said that they showed that these people were "very religious".
Hip, I didn't give any commentary on the quotes other than to say thought it would provide some background and answer questions that have long been debated. Then I posted the quotes. You are saying this made it reasonable for me to be attacked. I said I thought the quotes showed they were very religious men who got their morals and guidance from their faith only after when you asked me what I thought the quotes meant. So we are talking two totally different situations here. And you said they were misleading before I ever gave my opinion.
HipGnosis wrote:
<quoted text>
I could easily present opposing "quotes" that showed that many of them were suspicious, even contemptuous, of an over-reliance on religion, but as I said, I think it is fruitless to play dueling quotations. My best reply is the same as I said before - if one desires to make a per-determined point, than by all means, cherry-pick with abandon. It is the easiest thing in the world, not to say intellectually lazy.
I am certain that you could quote-mine my offerings over time on topix and depict me as a KJV-breathing evangelist. Likewise with yours - I could make you out to be whatever I desire to "prove" with careful selection. That's why I say what I've said from the start - if one >reallY< wants to know, one would look into their overall body of work. Spiritual expression in people who have given the matter any depth of study and thought at all is always a nuanced, often conflicted, and deeply personal undertaking. For instance (as I said) if you were to read Franklin's autobiography, you would be hard-pressed to call him "very religious". Likewise, to varying degrees, with Washington, Jefferson, Hamilton, Adams, Madison, and others. Thomas Paine was indispensable to our nation's independence, but his religious views were considered so radical that posterity has labeled him an atheist, with the slur under-scored with select "quotes", but Paine was nothing of the kind. Patrick Henry, otoh, was what you might call "very religious", yet you'll note he wasn't involved in the Constitution, and he was deeply critical of the result. Sam Adams is another - very instrumental in the nation's birth, but nowhere to be found in it's establishment.
I agree one can learn more from doing thorough research tan just going by quotes. But you keep maintaining these quotes are out of context and don't accurately reflect how the founding fathers felt. You even said they wouldn't have believed in the same God despite the fact they were Christians. So if you have any reason to think these quotes aren't a perfect reflection of how these men felt in regards to faith and country then show me why you think that. Otherwise you have no reason not to take them at face-value. Or at bare minimum you have no basis to imply that they are somehow out of context thus distorting the image of how they really felt.

(T) Peace

“Are you a Problem or Solution?”

Since: Mar 09

Ann Arbor, MI

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#423242
Nov 28, 2012
 
DearthOfCouth wrote:
<quoted text>
AnnieJ is pure gold, as is NoStress4me and several other people here who have very little in common with me.
I suspect, Grace, that you and I would be able to find very little to agree over but I don't see why that should trouble either of us. I hope that you will always find yourself welcome here, and that you will stay as long as you like.
<<hugs>> Thank You for that DoC, and back at you. I enjoy what we do not have in common, just as much as (if not more than) the few things we do.

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#423243
Nov 28, 2012
 

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Mary Palm wrote:
<quoted text>See, there's the rub. It is not goodness, personified. It is not even real. The entire concept is immoral garbage and it destroys its adherents. You are implicit proof of that if you are anything at all like your presented persona. You are disturbing. Your religion has destroyed your humanity.
Nope, I have had a good life. Stress free. Obviously, unlike you. You have been molested by your dogma. Raped. Destroyed. You need to seek professional help. Immediately. And, no, I would never have a conversation with someone so mentally disturbed in private. Your sickness needs the disinfectant of he light.
waaasssuuup wrote:
<quoted text>
"Your religion has destroyed your humanity" - EXACTLY!!!
And you're *PROUD* of that??
waaasssuuup wrote:
<quoted text>the destruction of the fallen human nature is signified in the ceremony of....
You are insane.

You refuse to be reasoned with. You live in your own little world, far divorced from reality. You are a waste of time.

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#423244
Nov 28, 2012
 
Chess Jurist wrote:
<quoted text>
Thank you.
But it doesn't answer the question; it merely frames it.
I don't know the answer

But considering there is a difference between proscribing behavior and forcing someone to pay for it and that we are the last industrialized nation in the world without universal healthcare, we may not have any precedent on-point. This may be setting a new one

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#423246
Nov 28, 2012
 

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waaasssuuup wrote:
<quoted text>
i'm not afraid to talk about specific behaviors as it's obvious to anyone who's objective who it is who's being nasty to who on this thread
That's your typical reaction to having your lies and hypocrisy pointed out. You just hate that, don't you?

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#423247
Nov 28, 2012
 

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Edit Hip

Meant to say "you kept saying" not "you keep saying"

Although I may be hair splitting and you are still implying quotes can basically be manipulated to make it look like someone has a position they don't and someone needs to do more in-depth research because it would be a mistake to rely on the quotes. Well in some cases that may be true, do you have any reason to think it is the case with these quotes?

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