“Are you a Problem or Solution?”

Since: Mar 09

Ann Arbor, MI

#423234 Nov 28, 2012
lightbeamrider wrote:
<quoted text> Functioning adults know the difference between hostile opinion and truth claims. Christian claims could be childish, self centered?(Don't know where you claim that since to offer is extended to everybody, obviously you reject based on your own choice) and escapist in your opinion and be objectively true at the same time. Your opinion does not alter truth one bit. If you are correct in your assessement then the claims of Christ are false. To vilify Christians does not make the truth claims of Christ automatically false. Functioning adults know that also.
I think you may want to go back and read his post again while taking into account, how the person he was replying to chooses to express his faith on here.

“How You Treat Me”

Since: May 10

Determines How I Treat You

#423235 Nov 28, 2012
Kaitlin the Wolf Witch wrote:
<quoted text>
No he didn't. He's a myth.
Just Results wrote:
<quoted text>
You're very delusional.
Jesus never said anything; he's a myth.

Live with it.

“How You Treat Me”

Since: May 10

Determines How I Treat You

#423236 Nov 28, 2012
Just Results wrote:
<quoted text>
I couldn't agree more.
Still making up posts, viking, so you can have something to knock down? You really are a pathetic christian.

“What's left to defend?”

Since: Jan 11

Freedom

#423237 Nov 28, 2012
HipGnosis wrote:
<quoted text>I don't think they are misleading at all in and of themselves. I feel they are misleading in the context of what you gleaned from them based on what you expressed. You said that they showed that these people were "very religious". I could easily present opposing "quotes" that showed that many of them were suspicious, even contemptuous, of an over-reliance on religion, but as I said, I think it is fruitless to play dueling quotations. My best reply is the same as I said before - if one desires to make a per-determined point, than by all means, cherry-pick with abandon. It is the easiest thing in the world, not to say intellectually lazy.
I am certain that you could quote-mine my offerings over time on topix and depict me as a KJV-breathing evangelist. Likewise with yours - I could make you out to be whatever I desire to "prove" with careful selection. That's why I say what I've said from the start - if one >reallY< wants to know, one would look into their overall body of work. Spiritual expression in people who have given the matter any depth of study and thought at all is always a nuanced, often conflicted, and deeply personal undertaking. For instance (as I said) if you were to read Franklin's autobiography, you would be hard-pressed to call him "very religious". Likewise, to varying degrees, with Washington, Jefferson, Hamilton, Adams, Madison, and others. Thomas Paine was indispensable to our nation's independence, but his religious views were considered so radical that posterity has labeled him an atheist, with the slur under-scored with select "quotes", but Paine was nothing of the kind. Patrick Henry, otoh, was what you might call "very religious", yet you'll note he wasn't involved in the Constitution, and he was deeply critical of the result. Sam Adams is another - very instrumental in the nation's birth, but nowhere to be found in it's establishment.
Did you see the HBO mini series, "John Adams"?

“How You Treat Me”

Since: May 10

Determines How I Treat You

#423238 Nov 28, 2012
Just Results wrote:
<quoted text>
That's why I'm a Christian fighting against the abuse and stench of atheism which you practice so well.
DearthOfCouth wrote:
<quoted text>
Is that what you're doing here?
"Fighting?"
JR Viking really is full of himself, isn't he?

“How You Treat Me”

Since: May 10

Determines How I Treat You

#423239 Nov 28, 2012
waaasssuuup wrote:
<quoted text>
to be a Christian to me means to be justified by faith in Jesus.
i'm afraid that to be a 'christian' to most of christendom means to follow Jesus' teachings, as if Jesus was only a great teacher/person.
please consider how abel, abraham, isaac, jacob, david...etc obtained favor from God, whether it came through their own goodness/works or by believing God, which was accounted to them as righteousness:)
They didn't; your buybull is nothing but a book of fairytales and lies.

Live with it.

“How You Treat Me”

Since: May 10

Determines How I Treat You

#423240 Nov 28, 2012
Mary Palm wrote:
<quoted text>You want men sent over, brokeback? That explains so much.
You're barking up the wrong tree with your overt misogyny. It doesn't insult me. It makes me feel sorry for you because I know you have such a deep seated animosity towards women because you have endured their lifelong rejection. I would pity you, but, you brought it on yourself. Keep going, though. The thought of you never being able to touch a willing woman pleases me.
waaasssuuup wrote:
<quoted text>
"your overt misogyny"?!
why do i seem disrespectful to women, cuz i don't condone female superiority like the rest of our culture does?
You disrespect women when you lie about them, as you constantly do. Women are not claiming superiority; we demand equal treatment under the law. You are opposed to equal treatment under the law.

You are a misogynist and a hypocrite--and a prick.

Since: Mar 09

Location hidden

#423241 Nov 28, 2012
HipGnosis wrote:
<quoted text>I don't think they are misleading at all in and of themselves. I feel they are misleading in the context of what you gleaned from them based on what you expressed. You said that they showed that these people were "very religious".
Hip, I didn't give any commentary on the quotes other than to say thought it would provide some background and answer questions that have long been debated. Then I posted the quotes. You are saying this made it reasonable for me to be attacked. I said I thought the quotes showed they were very religious men who got their morals and guidance from their faith only after when you asked me what I thought the quotes meant. So we are talking two totally different situations here. And you said they were misleading before I ever gave my opinion.
HipGnosis wrote:
<quoted text>
I could easily present opposing "quotes" that showed that many of them were suspicious, even contemptuous, of an over-reliance on religion, but as I said, I think it is fruitless to play dueling quotations. My best reply is the same as I said before - if one desires to make a per-determined point, than by all means, cherry-pick with abandon. It is the easiest thing in the world, not to say intellectually lazy.
I am certain that you could quote-mine my offerings over time on topix and depict me as a KJV-breathing evangelist. Likewise with yours - I could make you out to be whatever I desire to "prove" with careful selection. That's why I say what I've said from the start - if one >reallY< wants to know, one would look into their overall body of work. Spiritual expression in people who have given the matter any depth of study and thought at all is always a nuanced, often conflicted, and deeply personal undertaking. For instance (as I said) if you were to read Franklin's autobiography, you would be hard-pressed to call him "very religious". Likewise, to varying degrees, with Washington, Jefferson, Hamilton, Adams, Madison, and others. Thomas Paine was indispensable to our nation's independence, but his religious views were considered so radical that posterity has labeled him an atheist, with the slur under-scored with select "quotes", but Paine was nothing of the kind. Patrick Henry, otoh, was what you might call "very religious", yet you'll note he wasn't involved in the Constitution, and he was deeply critical of the result. Sam Adams is another - very instrumental in the nation's birth, but nowhere to be found in it's establishment.
I agree one can learn more from doing thorough research tan just going by quotes. But you keep maintaining these quotes are out of context and don't accurately reflect how the founding fathers felt. You even said they wouldn't have believed in the same God despite the fact they were Christians. So if you have any reason to think these quotes aren't a perfect reflection of how these men felt in regards to faith and country then show me why you think that. Otherwise you have no reason not to take them at face-value. Or at bare minimum you have no basis to imply that they are somehow out of context thus distorting the image of how they really felt.

(T) Peace

“Are you a Problem or Solution?”

Since: Mar 09

Ann Arbor, MI

#423242 Nov 28, 2012
DearthOfCouth wrote:
<quoted text>
AnnieJ is pure gold, as is NoStress4me and several other people here who have very little in common with me.
I suspect, Grace, that you and I would be able to find very little to agree over but I don't see why that should trouble either of us. I hope that you will always find yourself welcome here, and that you will stay as long as you like.
<<hugs>> Thank You for that DoC, and back at you. I enjoy what we do not have in common, just as much as (if not more than) the few things we do.

“How You Treat Me”

Since: May 10

Determines How I Treat You

#423243 Nov 28, 2012
Mary Palm wrote:
<quoted text>See, there's the rub. It is not goodness, personified. It is not even real. The entire concept is immoral garbage and it destroys its adherents. You are implicit proof of that if you are anything at all like your presented persona. You are disturbing. Your religion has destroyed your humanity.
Nope, I have had a good life. Stress free. Obviously, unlike you. You have been molested by your dogma. Raped. Destroyed. You need to seek professional help. Immediately. And, no, I would never have a conversation with someone so mentally disturbed in private. Your sickness needs the disinfectant of he light.
waaasssuuup wrote:
<quoted text>
"Your religion has destroyed your humanity" - EXACTLY!!!
And you're *PROUD* of that??
waaasssuuup wrote:
<quoted text>the destruction of the fallen human nature is signified in the ceremony of....
You are insane.

You refuse to be reasoned with. You live in your own little world, far divorced from reality. You are a waste of time.

Since: Mar 09

Location hidden

#423244 Nov 28, 2012
Chess Jurist wrote:
<quoted text>
Thank you.
But it doesn't answer the question; it merely frames it.
I don't know the answer

But considering there is a difference between proscribing behavior and forcing someone to pay for it and that we are the last industrialized nation in the world without universal healthcare, we may not have any precedent on-point. This may be setting a new one

“How You Treat Me”

Since: May 10

Determines How I Treat You

#423246 Nov 28, 2012
waaasssuuup wrote:
<quoted text>
i'm not afraid to talk about specific behaviors as it's obvious to anyone who's objective who it is who's being nasty to who on this thread
That's your typical reaction to having your lies and hypocrisy pointed out. You just hate that, don't you?

Since: Mar 09

Location hidden

#423247 Nov 28, 2012
Edit Hip

Meant to say "you kept saying" not "you keep saying"

Although I may be hair splitting and you are still implying quotes can basically be manipulated to make it look like someone has a position they don't and someone needs to do more in-depth research because it would be a mistake to rely on the quotes. Well in some cases that may be true, do you have any reason to think it is the case with these quotes?

Since: Jul 08

Columbus, OH

#423248 Nov 28, 2012
Skombolis wrote:
<quoted text>
I don't know the answer
But considering there is a difference between proscribing behavior and forcing someone to pay for it and that we are the last industrialized nation in the world without universal healthcare, we may not have any precedent on-point. This may be setting a new one
I don't have an answer either.

I rarely do.

“What are you looking at?”

Since: Jan 08

Albuquerque, NM

#423249 Nov 28, 2012
Skombolis wrote:
Edit New Age
Sorry, mneant to say if your business is run solely by those of faith AND all their employess are of the same faith as well. Obviously just cause the owner does or doesn't believe something he shouldn't be able to force his beliefs on others or withhold benefits from those who don't share his beliefs.
But at the same if an entire group feels a certain way for religious reasons then I don't think the government should be able to force them to do something they feel is against their beliefs. Within reason of course. Obviously someone can't say, well my religion tells me it is wrong to pay my employees their salary is something like that which is in violation of law and contract.
But if I owed a business put together for religious reasons and with people who shared my beliefs or said they did then no way would I pay for women to get ru40 or any other 'morning after' pill as I am against abortion and I think it is only fair I wouldn't have to if. But I understand why I would be opening myself up to the liability if I didn't hire based on belief but then tried not to pay for something claiming belief
(T0 Peace
I understand what you are saying, and I think those "details" will be applied accordingly.

The scenario I posited was just that - speculation if a court will look at the details in that regard.

As we can see - there are many mitigating factors involved.

It will be interesting on how it all plays out.

Cheers!

“How You Treat Me”

Since: May 10

Determines How I Treat You

#423250 Nov 28, 2012
Kaitlin the Wolf Witch wrote:
<quoted text>
You have no truth; all you have is lies, which I will continue to refute with the truth.
<quoted text>
Okay, fine; start taking baby steps in agreeing with *me.*
waaasssuuup wrote:
<quoted text>
"Okay, fine; start taking baby steps in agreeing with *me*"
okay, let's do it!
we ain't gonna talk about that evolution fantasy that can't be proven in several billion years, are we?
You have to agree with me that evolution is a proven fact while your buybull is a book of lies and your jesus is a myth; otherwise we have nothing to discuss.

“How You Treat Me”

Since: May 10

Determines How I Treat You

#423251 Nov 28, 2012
Kaitlin the Wolf Witch wrote:
<quoted text>
I push nothing on others; I don't demand that people join in *my* spiritual beliefs. I don't use childish scare tactics in a lame attempt to sway people's opinions, or to seek recruits; that is exclusively yours.
<quoted text>
You don't have any paradise to offer.
You have the mindset of a rapist.
waaasssuuup wrote:
<quoted text>
i don't DEMAND anything from anybody!
You demand that everyone accept your false hypothesis that the bible is god's word and that science is satanic and anti-christian.
waaasssuuup wrote:
<quoted text> i'm here debating just like you and you can't bully me away from it;)
You don't know what the word "debate" means.
waaasssuuup wrote:
<quoted text>"I don't use childish scare tactics"
you don't call eternal annhilation hopeless, depressing and terrifying???
Those are childish scare tactics. Thanks for proving my point.

“How You Treat Me”

Since: May 10

Determines How I Treat You

#423252 Nov 28, 2012
Kaitlin the Wolf Witch wrote:
<quoted text>
The myth of Hercules--the son of Zeus and his Twelve Labors--is several thousand years older than your jesus and his alleged twelve apostles.
Where do you think the jesus idea came from?
<quoted text>
I repeat: The myth of Hercules--the son of Zeus and his Twelve Labors--is several thousand years older than your jesus and his alleged twelve apostles. Are you attempting to deny what you know is real and true?
It sure looks like it!
<quoted text>
And your ignorance is indescribable.
waaasssuuup wrote:
<quoted text>
its' funny how the Bible remains on the best seller list ALWAYS but books about zeus don't!
How 'bout you address what I posted? Oh, wait; you don't *want* to, because you know I'm right and you can't bring your misogynistic self to admit it.
waaasssuuup wrote:
<quoted text> in fact, i can't even find a church of zeus in my city, but i can't swing a dead cat & not hit one that teaches about Jesus!
Your religion reminds me of that old magician's saying: "People *want* to be fooled, so let's fool 'em."
waaasssuuup wrote:
<quoted text> no excuses, kait, and i'm just prepping you for your day in court.
I don't answer to your kangaroo court.

“How You Treat Me”

Since: May 10

Determines How I Treat You

#423253 Nov 28, 2012
Kaitlin the Wolf Witch wrote:
<quoted text>
What are you buying your wife for la festa dell' inverno--the winter solstice?
<quoted text>
Actually, you do; you just don't realize it. Celebration of the Winter Solstice--Dec. 21-22--came long, long, long before the catholics invented Christmas.
I don't celebrate "christmas," and neither does anyone in my family. I choose to spend it working, and making a positive difference in my community.
waaasssuuup wrote:
<quoted text>
we're having a 'Testify of Christ' day right up in here now! EVERY day is a Holy day in God:)
In your world, maybe, but not in the real one.

“Are you a Problem or Solution?”

Since: Mar 09

Ann Arbor, MI

#423254 Nov 28, 2012
waaasssuuup wrote:
<quoted text>
to be a Christian to me means to be justified by faith in Jesus.

i'm afraid that to be a 'christian' to most of christendom means to follow Jesus' teachings, as if Jesus was only a great teacher/person.

please consider how abel, abraham, isaac, jacob, david...etc obtained favor from God, whether it came through their own goodness/works or by believing God, which was accounted to them as righteousness:)
OK. So in your own opinion, what does it mean to be justified by faith in Jesus?

Have you heard the saying that works are the fruit of faith? They are not the means to God, but the outcome of a faith based life in my honest opinion. Jesus did not simply preach his message, he lived it, and by doing so in my opinion he became (as intended) the living example of what faith and God痴 love can do in and for our own lives. To me receiving Christ as your Savior and placing your faith in God is only one part of what it is to be a Christian.

I do not think that faith alone put the above examples(etc) in God壮 favor. I believe that it was the actions they chose to take based on their personal faith in God, that earned his favor. Let me explain my own view from a different direction if I may. The Bible says that faith is a gift from God, so why would God favor us for simply having a gift given to us? I believe that what we personally choose do with our gift, is just as important as the receiving of it.

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