Why I’m no longer a Christian

[water_nymph]

G_O_D wrote:

<quoted text>
Nope. Note the differing accounts of the Iraq war. Does that mean that the war didn't occur ? No. Just several different accounts that may or may not have some truth to them.

In a way, I agree with your statement.

When talking about 1 person dying in such a profound way as Jesus was supposed to have died, and having no records whatsoever from the time that it happened, would be like having no records of the Iraq war and *then* telling about it.

We are speaking not only of eye-witnesses, but of timing.

I do not write as eloquently as some here, so my points may not be as definitive.

If you have a crime where one person shoots another and there are four witnesses (as the gospels represent 4 witnesses), and none of them write down anything for decades or centuries then their reports are worth nothing by the time people read them. If then, on top of the time lag, you have four different accounts of people who claim to have been in the same place (across the street or in front of the cross) and those four accounts are vastly different, they are rendered null due to time and substance.

Comparing the news coverage with an event that had no coverage at all, IMO, is not quite the same thing. You may disagree.

Had the Iraq war taken place 2000 years ago, and people had not written or published anything on it for 50 to 200 years later, and all the accounts differed, would you be so quick to make this analogy? Apples to apples, oranges to oranges.

[DearthOfCouth]

Mr Wiggley wrote:

<quoted text>
Yepper...
How are ya DoC??
Hope all is well.

Doing just fine, MW. Thanks for asking.

I've been offline a while. How's our episode of "Certification Challenge" doing today?

[water_nymph]

G_O_D wrote:

<quoted text>
I got tired of the accusations so posted them. Just like many professionals place them on their office walls. It proves that some organization has confered a level of authority in a particular subject.
I ran out of room on my wall.

G, I have always liked you. That doesn't mean I think you are correct in everything you do and say.

This was a matter of ego and nothing else, just as Resurrectionist's claims are also of ego and nothing else.

I don't think a single person on here really cares how much education you have or how many degrees. I think what people do care about is how you apply that knowledge. But I can't speak for everyone here. I'm just going on observation.

The fundies know they can get to you by hitting your most vulnerable spot. In your case it is your ego about your education.

Education doesn't make you smart. It makes you educated. You did something I thought was extremely NOT smart by posting personal information. You played right into their hands. They got to you and that's what they set out to do.

Everyone has a vulnerable spot. They found mine at one time and I let it get to me. Then I decided that I could do that and allow them a win, or I could just ignore it and move ahead. I chose the latter. I hope you will learn to do the same. It's not worth a stalker showing up at your house, and you gave enough information with those degrees that anyone can find out who you are. You may think that's not anything to worry about, but you would be wrong.

Crazy stalkers who spend their lives thinking about a person and finding information on them show up on people's doorsteps sooner or later.

As much as it would bother me to shoot a stalker, I would not hesitate if I thought it necessary. I don't give them any more than they can learn on the internet simply because I have an ISP address. And if you think Topix isn't the source of some of this information, again, you are not being smart.

Take care. And, take care.

[water_nymph]

Mr Wiggley wrote:

<quoted text>
But Wait!!! There's more!!! For just the S&H we'll include a second magic bible decoder ring...in fact we'll give you as many as you want!!!
Just pay the additional S&H for each ring...consider it a tithe...
Haha...

You forgot to give the legal disclaimer.

Warning: Decoder rings may differ in color and design. Each decoder ring will give you a different answer to a single question. You must play 'Eenie, meenie, miney, mo' to choose an answer until you get an answer that confirms your predetermined beliefs.'

[Mr Wiggley]

Resurrectionologist wrote:

<quoted text>
Failure? Not so fast there Chicago Tribune!("Dewey Defeats Truman!" look that up here: http://www.deweydefeatstruman.com/ )
The written "records" you say? Are you referring to the official records of the 12th Precinct of the Roman garrison in Jerusalem or the Temple Guard over in the 11th Ward?(LOL @ you)
FYI, the 4 gospels are ancient attempts at biographies. They aren't modern biographies, and they are primitive by our own standards, but they do attempt to record what Jesus said and did. Now you need to understand that the culture of that time didn't really place much emphasis on Jesus' life as a young child. It wouldn't have mattered in the context of what He accomplished in adulthood.
Now, as it relates to my example, the Gospel of Luke is actually a letter and starts with a prologue that is intended to assure a wealthy Roman citizen (Theophilus) that what has been passed down by oral tradition is correct. This prologue points to the exact same historical method that I described in my JFK scenario. The same process was used then, and is still in use today. Here is the opening passage in Luke that illustrates this:
" (1)Many people have set out to write accounts about the events that have been fulfilled among us.(2) They used the eyewitness reports circulating among us from the early disciples.(3) Having carefully investigated everything from the beginning, I also have decided to write a careful account for you, most honorable Theophilus,(4) so you can be certain of the truth of everything you were taught." -Luke 1:1-4
This statement is written to show historical integrity, and if written even with 50 years of the time of Jesus' would still be accurate.
Your comparison of 1st century reporting and 20th century reporting is historical ethnocentrism, because we cannot transpose our methods upon that culture at that time in history. Their culture was different, and to accurately understand them, we have to adapt to their style when interpreting both the text and the purpose of their writing.
Would you compare a 1922 Model T Ford to a 2012 Ford Fusion if you were interested in how the Ford Model T was designed? No. You would stick with the story of the Model T. Now if you were talking about the engineering history of the Ford Motor Company, then you could show the changes in design and manufacturing, and how Ford became more efficient through time. But you still wouldn't compare the Fusion to the Model T, because the Model T was the latest technology available from 1908 to about 1926-27.
Cultural ethnocentrism might be valid when comparing something like modern political views with opposing modern political views,(or religions) but not with regard to history.
I'm sorry if I've made too much sense for you folks to handle today.
I'll take a break and let your minds relax. I can smell the smoke from here.

No need to be sorry. Total lack of understanding and Logic is a reasonable excuse.
When JFK was assasinated there was at least the 3 major TV networks, ABC, NBC, and CBS. Not to mention the hundreds if not thousands of newspapers and radio stations that recorded the event that fateful day.
Please list the TV stations, Radio stations, news papers etc that recorded and commented on the death of your jesus.
I'll wait...

[water_nymph]

Resurrectionologist wrote:

<quoted text>
Failure? Not so fast there Chicago Tribune!("Dewey Defeats Truman!" look that up here: http://www.deweydefeatstruman.com/ )
The written "records" you say? Are you referring to the official records of the 12th Precinct of the Roman garrison in Jerusalem or the Temple Guard over in the 11th Ward?(LOL @ you)
FYI, the 4 gospels are ancient attempts at biographies. They aren't modern biographies, and they are primitive by our own standards, but they do attempt to record what Jesus said and did. Now you need to understand that the culture of that time didn't really place much emphasis on Jesus' life as a young child. It wouldn't have mattered in the context of what He accomplished in adulthood.
Now, as it relates to my example, the Gospel of Luke is actually a letter and starts with a prologue that is intended to assure a wealthy Roman citizen (Theophilus) that what has been passed down by oral tradition is correct. This prologue points to the exact same historical method that I described in my JFK scenario. The same process was used then, and is still in use today. Here is the opening passage in Luke that illustrates this:
" (1)Many people have set out to write accounts about the events that have been fulfilled among us.(2) They used the eyewitness reports circulating among us from the early disciples.(3) Having carefully investigated everything from the beginning, I also have decided to write a careful account for you, most honorable Theophilus,(4) so you can be certain of the truth of everything you were taught." -Luke 1:1-4
This statement is written to show historical integrity, and if written even with 50 years of the time of Jesus' would still be accurate.
Your comparison of 1st century reporting and 20th century reporting is historical ethnocentrism, because we cannot transpose our methods upon that culture at that time in history. Their culture was different, and to accurately understand them, we have to adapt to their style when interpreting both the text and the purpose of their writing.
Would you compare a 1922 Model T Ford to a 2012 Ford Fusion if you were interested in how the Ford Model T was designed? No. You would stick with the story of the Model T. Now if you were talking about the engineering history of the Ford Motor Company, then you could show the changes in design and manufacturing, and how Ford became more efficient through time. But you still wouldn't compare the Fusion to the Model T, because the Model T was the latest technology available from 1908 to about 1926-27.
Cultural ethnocentrism might be valid when comparing something like modern political views with opposing modern political views,(or religions) but not with regard to history.
I'm sorry if I've made too much sense for you folks to handle today.
I'll take a break and let your minds relax. I can smell the smoke from here.

Can you give me an actual history/archaeology site where anything is mentioned about the subject that was being discussed is specifically mentioned?

I can't find those records online. All I can find is apologetics with no references/sites/museums/etc. for any of the commentary. I must admit that this is a new version for me and one of which I have heard nothing.

I'm open to all historical data, whether it confirms or disseminates my views. I am not open to apologetics which give no references where I can find this information in it's original form or gives the writings of other apologists only as their source. I'm sure you get my drift.

[T-Town Clown]

AnnieJ wrote:

<quoted text>
Yes...there are sad times in our lives just as there is in a believer's life. The one thing that we have going for us (non-believers) is that we are not sitting around waiting to die or predicting dooms day every time something "sad" happens. We work our way through it and look forward to the next day and keep on going.
BTW The term non-believer is erroneous...we all believe in something...just not all of us believe as you do.

stop being a cry-baby/whiner

[macumazahn]

Kaitlin the Wolf Witch wrote:

It's Saturday night, and Stephie and I have movies to watch. "Dracula's Daughter" on DVD.

Yet another reason to like you!

1936, Otto Kruger, Gloria Holden...

One has a fondness for classic B-movies.

And new B-movies.

And classic hit movies.

And a very, very, very few newish hit movies.

[water_nymph]

Resurrectionologist wrote:

<quoted text>

I'll take a break and let your minds relax. I can smell the smoke from here.

There's no smoke. That's because there's no fire. But we've already discussed this comparison.

You can't put out an imaginary fire. You can, however, throw in some smoke bombs to make smoke so that you can pretend to put out a fire. This is, I think, what you did with this post.

[macumazahn]

Mary Palm wrote:

<quoted text>Wouldn't you make a mint selling your superior secret decoder ring on an infomercial?
"For just $19.99, plus S&H, get the Tony17 magic Bible decoder ring, so you too can claim to be the only one who can "accurately comprehend" that big, old dusty Bible. But wait! There's more! If you act now, Tony will throw in a free prayer cloth replica of the Shroud of Turin! Amaze you friends. Call now! Sham operators are standing by!"
If I had a dollar for every a christian who claimed that their interpretation was right, no matter whose it differs from, I would have 2 billion dollars. GMAFB.

"But wait! If you call in the next 50 minutes, you get a SECOND Magic Bible Decoder Ring absolutely free!

Just pay separate shipping and handling*

__________
*$327

**Shit, that wasn't supposed to be in there.

[T-Town Clown]

G_O_D wrote:

<quoted text>
I love ferrets. Only three left and they are getting old now.
Ex has them now. I am now owned by a cat.

thats disgusting

[T-Town Clown]

Kaitlin the Wolf Witch wrote:

<quoted text>
Just home from church, are you? I can imagine what the sermon was about.

shut yo pie hole

[water_nymph]

Mr Wiggley wrote:

<quoted text>
No need to be sorry. Total lack of understanding and Logic is a reasonable excuse.
When JFK was assasinated there was at least the 3 major TV networks, ABC, NBC, and CBS. Not to mention the hundreds if not thousands of newspapers and radio stations that recorded the event that fateful day.
Please list the TV stations, Radio stations, news papers etc that recorded and commented on the death of your jesus.
I'll wait...

Since they didn't have any news media, I would be satisfied with writings from the time it allegedly happened instead of decades and centuries later. Provide me with something that can be dated to that period without a doubt, and I'll take another look at it.

[Grace Walker]

karl44 wrote:

<quoted text>
You do not seem to read well. I DO NOT BELIEVE, I have no respect for those who do!
I do not believe in evolution --- I accept the theory, as proven; and I fully expect that there will be more evidence in the future and "a better understanding and explanation" will develop. This is NOT a Belief!, it is an understanding of evidence.
The big bang is a religious explanation of the beginnings of the universe, and while it seems probable that there was an event at T>0, I find the BB a weak explanation. Hawking has proposed a deeper hypothesis (M theory), I find this explanation appealing on two or three levels, I do not believe it and I do not accept it, I do however adopt it provisionally as the best hypothesis to date. This is not a belief either, it is a provisional hypothesis.

Can you please explain your "belief" in creation?? A very simple one will do. Where or how did human life come from? In YOUR hypotheseis??

[macumazahn]

water_nymph wrote:

<quoted text> More scare tactics for little innocent children and feeble-minded adults.
When will you learn that no one here is going to buy your snake oil?

BUT WHAT ABOUT THE CHIRRUN??

Laffin.

[Black Thunder 42]

Mr Wiggley wrote:

<quoted text>
Must be we do the same thing...I work on computers also. I play every day and get paid for it....

LOL!

[water_nymph]

Mr Wiggley wrote:

<quoted text>
No need to be sorry. Total lack of understanding and Logic is a reasonable excuse.
When JFK was assasinated there was at least the 3 major TV networks, ABC, NBC, and CBS. Not to mention the hundreds if not thousands of newspapers and radio stations that recorded the event that fateful day.
Please list the TV stations, Radio stations, news papers etc that recorded and commented on the death of your jesus.
I'll wait...

Oh, and make those sources outside of the religion as well as those within.

You know...like records from the Jews who took him before the judges and before Pharaoh. Or records from the Romans that actually tell of crucifying a man named Jesus because he claimed to be God.

Religious writings might confirm it for Christians, but I would look for sources outside as well as inside the religion. Surely such a momentous event in the history of the Jews and Romans must have been recorded somewhere. Yet in all the records from that time, there is nothing. I'll be waiting for Resurrectionist to point me to a site where such records of the Roman garrisons etc can be found by me or anyone else.

[macumazahn]

water_nymph wrote:

<quoted text> Are you aware that there were two towns known as Bethlehem and that the one who fits the description in the Bible is not the one tourists are led to?
How would anyone know where Jesus was crucified? Thousands of people were crucified at that time. They lined the Roman roads and hills. Since there is no Roman record of Jesus being crucified, there is no placement for a crucifixion. You've been sold a bill of goods.
I have a nail I'd like to sell you.

I have a guaranteed splinter of the Holy Rood.

And TWO skulls of John the Baptist - one at age 18, one at age 34.

[water_nymph]

macumazahn wrote:

<quoted text>"But wait! If you call in the next 50 minutes, you get a SECOND Magic Bible Decoder Ring absolutely free!
Just pay separate shipping and handling*
__________
*$327
**Shit, that wasn't supposed to be in there.

Now that there was funny, I don't care who you are.

[macumazahn]

Kaitlin the Wolf Witch wrote:

<quoted text>
The more radical jesus people love to yammer about "voluntary public prayer." Didn't their own "messiah" tell them they were supposed to pray in private?

Hmm.

They support "voluntary prayer"...

How if that prayer started with "La illaha il'-Allah"?

In, say, Middle School?

Watch THAT tide go out.