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“IMAGINE no religion!”

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#422286
Nov 24, 2012
 

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God STILL love you all wrote:
I think you probably do.
I dont hate you or hold malice towards you because you dont believe in the truth but I hope you can find or return to the Lord, Jesus Christ, before it is too late. Here is the good news though, if you reject Jesus he will not force you to follow him.
<quoted text>
then why do all you fundie christurds try and shove it down our throat???

non-believers KNOW this, if we wanted it, we know where to find it.

thanks but no thanks.

dust your sandals off and mosey on down the road.

“Hello Darlings!”

Since: May 10

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#422287
Nov 24, 2012
 
Kaitlin the Wolf Witch wrote:
<quoted text>
No he didn't, coward viking. And there's nothing you can do about it.
<quoted text>
History is filled with *REAL* people who have affected our humanity for the better.
<quoted text>
I defy you to prove that it *isn't* my real picture. I think you are an idiot; and I don't care what *you* think.
TJ Monk wrote:
<quoted text>
May I suggest that we make out?
No.
TJ Monk wrote:
<quoted text>I am a good looking male
Sorry; I'm not into syphilitic and leprous midgets.

Since: Sep 12

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#422288
Nov 24, 2012
 

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Resurrectionologist wrote:
<quoted text>
You do? You really need to check your ego at the door. You're not gonna like my next statement, but I don't really care either.
Do YOU know Greek? I DO.
Do YOU know Hebrew? I DO.
Have YOU been to Jerusalem? I HAVE. TWICE.
Do YOU have an Undergraduate's Degree w/ honors in Ancient History from a secular University? I DO.(Binghamton University - SUNY)
Do YOU conduct historical research as a profession? I DO.(Not in religion either - just sayin')
If anyone around here has extensive knowledge without having gone to a Divinity School, it is I. But I do not correct your errors for my own ego, no matter what you might think. I correct your errors because they are just THAT. ERRORS.
Go ahead. Get mad, get nasty, it matters little to me how you react.
What does matter is what I've seen, where I've been, and that the conclusions I have reached are more plausible than not.
Your ego is dedicated to yourself.
My ego is dedicated to knocking your presuppositions right where they belong: in the dust.
Now shall we continue?
I went to Jerusalem in March of 09...We actually took the Exodus Tour that started in Egypt. We stayed there for 3 days and then went on to Israel for 6 days. We visited Bethleham, Jerusalem and Jericho. We had our Sunday morning service on a boat on the Sea of Galilee. Did you ride that boat too? Most people do. I was baptized in the River Jordon. We went to the Western Wall (wailing wall)..Very interesting. We walked the via Delarosa, Rode the cable car to the top of The Mount of Temptation. Went to the garden of Gethsemne and the garden Tomb. I saw so much while I was there. We are planning to go back in a few years. Wonderful, wonderful trip. I rode a Camel a few times while I was there. I loved it...I took about 1800 pictures while I was there. We stayed at the Olive Tree Hotel while we was in Jerusalem....Awesome trip. I will never forget it...

“Hello Darlings!”

Since: May 10

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#422289
Nov 24, 2012
 
water_nymph wrote:
<quoted text> Then the Christians who are always crying about their rights being taken away in the US should also be thankful for the same.
Every time I have asked what 'rights' have been taken away, I never get an answer.
You have the right to believe. You have the right to whine and complain. You even have the right to lie for your religion should you choose to. So what rights have been taken away?
Resurrectionologist wrote:
<quoted text>
Well some would complain that the right to display a Nativity scene during the Christmas Holiday, or the right to voluntary public prayer in school has been suppressed.
I have no problems with such; just don't use my money to do it.

**OR** let's use tax money to put up displays of *ALL* religions equally.

You christians want public money to promote your particular religion, and that is forbidden by the First Amendment.
Resurrectionologist wrote:
<quoted text> Then there are those who voice concerns over the equality of offering evolution and creation classes in public high schools.
Evolution is scientific fact; creationism is religious dogma, and not to be allowed in publicly funded science classes under the First Amendment. Period.

“Hello Darlings!”

Since: May 10

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#422290
Nov 24, 2012
 
Tony17 wrote:
<quoted text>Only the Biblically illiterate believes that Noah's bloodline was impure. No pointin aruging the fact with unlearned atheists that think they are even more intelligent than God Himsllf.
As scripture states,some of you thnik you are wise but they became fools instead. Always learning but never able to come to a knowledge of the truth
"Noah" is a myth; he never existed. Your "global flood" never occurred, and your buybull is a book of myths and lies.

Get over it.

“Hello Darlings!”

Since: May 10

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#422291
Nov 24, 2012
 
God STILL love you all wrote:
I think you probably do.
I dont hate you or hold malice towards you because you dont believe in the truth but I hope you can find or return to the Lord, Jesus Christ, before it is too late. Here is the good news though, if you reject Jesus he will not force you to follow him.
<quoted text>
You have no truth. You have a book of lies.

“Hello Darlings!”

Since: May 10

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#422295
Nov 24, 2012
 
Zen Master Ein wrote:
<quoted text>Why do you hate Grace Walker and call her Bible a book of lies?
Here's another "christian" accusing me of hating someone.

Hey, dummy? Where'd you ever get the idea that I hate Grace? I happen to like her. I don't agree with her religious beliefs, but she has never been pushy or rude to me; therefore, I treat her with the same respect she shows me.

We also work in the same field.

You fundies are always so quick on the trigger to accuse *others* of hate.

Since: Nov 12

Atlanta, GA

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#422296
Nov 24, 2012
 

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Kaitlin the Wolf Witch wrote:
<quoted text>
"Noah" is a myth; he never existed. Your "global flood" never occurred, and your buybull is a book of myths and lies.
Get over it.
LOL

People complain Christians and other religious folk shove religion down their throats, yet atheists and agnostics and other "non-believers" make statements like this. Aren't you doing the same thing you accuse religious people of doing?

“Hello Darlings!”

Since: May 10

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#422297
Nov 24, 2012
 
Zen Master Ein wrote:
<quoted text>Why do you hate Grace Walker and call her Bible a book of lies?
Why do you hate the truth?

Since: Nov 12

Atlanta, GA

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#422298
Nov 24, 2012
 

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Kaitlin the Wolf Witch wrote:
<quoted text>
Why do you hate the truth?
Why cant people believe what they want? What bearing does it have on your life? How does it affect you and how you live? In my country (U.S.), we are free to believe what we want.

“The future begins”

Since: Jul 07

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#422299
Nov 24, 2012
 
Resurrectionologist wrote:
<quoted text>
Have you been to Jerusalem? Why do you tell me that the platform that the temple rested on was part of the temple when I have seen it for myself and can tell you it's not?

So why not just say, "Okay, the information might be correct, but I choose not to accept it." Why not just go that route? it would be more honest than what you're currently doing.
Because your information is not correct. I am not impressed that you "looked" at it. Do you possibly tell yourself that we haven't seen it, and must take your word? We can look at it too, in books, documentaries, and we can "go" to it right now in Google maps.

The Wailing Wall formed a portion of the outer wall of the Temple grounds, not the foundation. In short, it was, most emphatically, a wall. Your assertion is patently ludicrous. It is curious as to why you insist on making this distinction. You have shown thus far that you consider your gratuitous speculations to be superior even to that of non-controversial scholarly inquiry. This one is by far the most egregious, and pointless, of the several you've proposed. It's only possible motive is to somehow demonstrate that you possess insights that have eluded scholars and scientists for centuries.

You probably don't realize that this display of yours is a perfect - perfect - example of the multi-layered legend-building process that has taken place around the corpse of Jesus. Convince enough people of your "vision", and we have yet another Christian splinter group, based on foolishness. This is why the Christian faith is split into tens of thousands of denominations. It is only the stability imposed by the secular state that keeps you all from disintegrating into the holy wars that plagued Europe for centuries, and plagues Islam to this day.

“The future begins”

Since: Jul 07

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#422300
Nov 24, 2012
 
water_nymph wrote:
<quoted text> I am sorry to hear that you do historical research as a profession. I hope it has nothing to do with Biblical research. You're not objective enough to do that.
An "historical research" profession could be as assistant librarian in the public school system. Judging by the vague references he's thrown out so far, he could be a Doctor of Biblical Studies, or just another fundie poser trying to bluff his way through a debate by cowing the illiterati with his "credentials".

Since: Sep 12

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#422301
Nov 24, 2012
 

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Kaitlin the Wolf Witch wrote:
<quoted text>
Here's another "christian" accusing me of hating someone.
Hey, dummy? Where'd you ever get the idea that I hate Grace? I happen to like her. I don't agree with her religious beliefs, but she has never been pushy or rude to me; therefore, I treat her with the same respect she shows me.
We also work in the same field.
You fundies are always so quick on the trigger to accuse *others* of hate.
Hi Kaitlin..There is only one group of "socks" on here that try a little "too" hard to turn you and me against one another all the time..Yes, we disagree on a lot but we still treat one another with respect. I have talked with you through private message and you respectfully declined to believe and I respectfully accepted your right to your own decision...Thats all I feel that I should do..Expect continue to be friendly and love all people. Did you have a nice Thanksgiving? I let my husband open his Christmas present early....I paid for a Walt Disney trip for us. He has never been and never flew in a airplane before..I just couldnt keep it a secret any longer. We will go away for a week in January..Its going to be awesome.

“ Ah see's lanlubbers Cap'n BT!”

Since: Oct 10

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#422302
Nov 24, 2012
 
JOlatidoye wrote:
<quoted text>
LOL
People complain Christians and other religious folk shove religion down their throats, yet atheists and agnostics and other "non-believers" make statements like this. Aren't you doing the same thing you accuse religious people of doing?
Try reading the title of the thread dummy.

“Live Love Laugh”

Since: Aug 07

Rings of Saturn Emporium

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#422303
Nov 24, 2012
 
Resurrectionologist wrote:
<quoted text>
Yes I can. Not with 100% certainty mind you, but ancient history isn't 100% certain. The criteria is "more plausible than not." Anyone who thinks that the standard is the same as a criminal court case "beyond reasonable doubt" isn't being realistic.
So in a nutshell, the writings of Origen and Irenaeus do claim that Matthew wrote his gospel in Aramaic/Hebrew while still in Palestine, and this is consistent with the language and Jewish themes we see there. Now I have admitted that I am speculating when I say he probably took notes while Jesus was still alive, as we really have no way of knowing. But on it's own merit, as a tax collector, wouldn't it be sensible to consider that he was literate and had access to writing materials?
Also, St Augustine quotes from Eusebius and other early church fathers as such:(Before dismissing it, look it up and read it for yourself. I am much more interested in pointing you in the right direction than I am trying to convince you myself)
"Now, those four evangelists whose names have gained the most remarkable circulation over the whole world, and whose number has been fixed as four,are believed to have written in the order which follows: first Matthew, then Mark, thirdly Luke, lastly John."
"Of these four, it is true, only Matthew is reckoned to have written in the Hebrew language; the others in Greek. And however they may appear to have kept each of them a certain order of narration proper to himself, this certainly is not to be taken as if each individual writer chose to write in ignorance of what his predecessor had done."
-St. Augustine, The Harmony of the Gospels, 2.
Origen, Irenaeus and Eusebeus did not write about Jesus during his lifetime. In fact, they were not even a gleam in their mother's eye during Jesus lifetime.

Origen lived from late second century to mid third century. He argued in favor of a spiritual rendering of the story of Jesus rather than a historical one, so using him as a historical source is pure irony. Also the fact that he was posthumously excommunicated by the church for his heretical commentary about Jesus and his ideas about pre-existence/transmigration and other things doesn't help your cause. He believed wholeheartedly in the reunification of all souls with God, no matter what. In other words, once saved/always saved. Peeved the church officials even hundreds of years later. Though he was the most prolific writer on Jesus, he was also the most controversial. He certainly had nothing more than what he had learned from previous writings. How could he? He was born almost 200 years later.

Irenaeus is an interesting person also. He was the one who named the four gospels and put them in the order he thought they should go. He wrote out the reasons as to why he thought they belonged in the approved teachings around 180 CE. It seems the Council of Laodicea agreed with him 170 or so years later. Until Irenaeus put the gospels together, there is no evidence that there were any 'approved' and not.

Eusebius was a historian who wrote is treatise on Jesus some time in the early 4th century, but very few of his works were saved because of the controversy in the 4th century of his advocacy of Arianism. But even he realized there were discrepancies between the gospels as he wrote a whole work on it.
Most of what we know about Eusebius is known through the writings of Jerome in the 4th century and Socrates and Theodoret in the 5th century.

None of these men knew anything of Jesus personally, but only the gospels they had read. By the time of Eusebius, it is doubtful that there were any original copies of the writings of any of the four gospel writers.

As I said before, if you have people who write accounts when an event happens with a well known person and all the accounts match, then there is probably more historical fact. If you don't, then it is mere speculation.
to be continued

Since: Sep 12

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#422304
Nov 24, 2012
 
JOlatidoye wrote:
<quoted text>
Why cant people believe what they want? What bearing does it have on your life? How does it affect you and how you live? In my country (U.S.), we are free to believe what we want.
We CAN believe anyway we want too. People can also choose to NOT believe. It is childish to fuss and fight over all this. I treat people with the same repect that they treat me with...Have a great night JO.

Since: Sep 12

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#422305
Nov 24, 2012
 
Black Thunder 42 wrote:
<quoted text>
Try reading the title of the thread dummy.
Hi BT...I have missed you..How was your Thanksgiving?

“Hello Darlings!”

Since: May 10

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#422306
Nov 24, 2012
 
JOlatidoye wrote:
<quoted text>
Why cant people believe what they want? What bearing does it have on your life? How does it affect you and how you live? In my country (U.S.), we are free to believe what we want.
Tell it to "Zen Master Ein," he's the one who falsely accused me of hating Grace Walker.

“The future begins”

Since: Jul 07

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#422307
Nov 24, 2012
 
Resurrectionologist wrote:
<quoted text>
Yes I can. Not with 100% certainty mind you, but ancient history isn't 100% certain. The criteria is "more plausible than not." Anyone who thinks that the standard is the same as a criminal court case "beyond reasonable doubt" isn't being realistic.
So in a nutshell, the writings of Origen and Irenaeus do claim that Matthew wrote his gospel in Aramaic/Hebrew while still in Palestine, and this is consistent with the language and Jewish themes we see there. Now I have admitted that I am speculating when I say he probably took notes while Jesus was still alive, as we really have no way of knowing. But on it's own merit, as a tax collector, wouldn't it be sensible to consider that he was literate and had access to writing materials?
I freely stipulate that Levi was very likely literate, and had regular use of writing materials in the course of his occupation.

How is it that we have thousands upon thousands of copies of NT writings, in various languages, but not one fragment of this Hebrew Matthew?

Produce a fragment of Hebrew Matthew, or chalk it up to wishful thinking. You are speculating, I am not. The vast consensus of Biblical paleography assigns it as the 2nd gospel, dependent on Mark and the Q source, as well as his own unique "additions". Textual analysis indicates an age after the destruction of Jerusalem and prior to Ignatius, or iow, 70-100CE. It was not written by the apostle Levi, but ascribed to him by an anonymous author, most likely originating in Antioch, again, as revealed by textual analysis. His understanding of Jewish custom is superficial, and his knowledge of Hebrew scripture is rife with error, produced most likely from a dependence on the faulty Septuagint translation. His anti-Semitic attitude is nearly as egregious, but just as historically tragic, as John's "Good News". This is not speculation, but historical fact.

“Live Love Laugh”

Since: Aug 07

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#422308
Nov 24, 2012
 
Resurrectionologist wrote:
<quoted text>
Yes I can. Not with 100% certainty mind you, but ancient history isn't 100% certain. The criteria is "more plausible than not." Anyone who thinks that the standard is the same as a criminal court case "beyond reasonable doubt" isn't being realistic.
So in a nutshell, the writings of Origen and Irenaeus do claim that Matthew wrote his gospel in Aramaic/Hebrew while still in Palestine, and this is consistent with the language and Jewish themes we see there. Now I have admitted that I am speculating when I say he probably took notes while Jesus was still alive, as we really have no way of knowing. But on it's own merit, as a tax collector, wouldn't it be sensible to consider that he was literate and had access to writing materials?
Also, St Augustine quotes from Eusebius and other early church fathers as such:(Before dismissing it, look it up and read it for yourself. I am much more interested in pointing you in the right direction than I am trying to convince you myself)
"Now, those four evangelists whose names have gained the most remarkable circulation over the whole world, and whose number has been fixed as four,are believed to have written in the order which follows: first Matthew, then Mark, thirdly Luke, lastly John."
"Of these four, it is true, only Matthew is reckoned to have written in the Hebrew language; the others in Greek. And however they may appear to have kept each of them a certain order of narration proper to himself, this certainly is not to be taken as if each individual writer chose to write in ignorance of what his predecessor had done."
-St. Augustine, The Harmony of the Gospels, 2.
Saint Augustine was not even born until mid-4th century. He took his information from others who had never met Jesus (Origen, Eusebius, etc).

If your profession is historical research, then you should know that the writings of these men is no more accurate than would be yours if you were writing on my great, great, great, great grandfather whom you never met, never a member of the family, never had any writings by or about my great, great, great, great grandfather while he was alive. All you would have is the stories told for several centuries, expanded on by family and friends and while it might hold some truth, it is impossible to know whether it does or not.

This is the reason I said I hope you are not a Biblical researcher. You do not have the scholar's eye to do so, IMO.

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