Why I’m no longer a Christian

“CHRISTIANITYIS AMENTAL DISEASE”

Since: May 10

"---TOO BAD IT'S NOT FATAL"

#422295 Nov 24, 2012
Zen Master Ein wrote:
<quoted text>Why do you hate Grace Walker and call her Bible a book of lies?
Here's another "christian" accusing me of hating someone.

Hey, dummy? Where'd you ever get the idea that I hate Grace? I happen to like her. I don't agree with her religious beliefs, but she has never been pushy or rude to me; therefore, I treat her with the same respect she shows me.

We also work in the same field.

You fundies are always so quick on the trigger to accuse *others* of hate.

Since: Nov 12

Union City, GA

#422296 Nov 24, 2012
Kaitlin the Wolf Witch wrote:
<quoted text>
"Noah" is a myth; he never existed. Your "global flood" never occurred, and your buybull is a book of myths and lies.
Get over it.
LOL

People complain Christians and other religious folk shove religion down their throats, yet atheists and agnostics and other "non-believers" make statements like this. Aren't you doing the same thing you accuse religious people of doing?

“CHRISTIANITYIS AMENTAL DISEASE”

Since: May 10

"---TOO BAD IT'S NOT FATAL"

#422297 Nov 24, 2012
Zen Master Ein wrote:
<quoted text>Why do you hate Grace Walker and call her Bible a book of lies?
Why do you hate the truth?

Since: Nov 12

Union City, GA

#422298 Nov 24, 2012
Kaitlin the Wolf Witch wrote:
<quoted text>
Why do you hate the truth?
Why cant people believe what they want? What bearing does it have on your life? How does it affect you and how you live? In my country (U.S.), we are free to believe what we want.

“The future begins”

Since: Jul 07

every moment

#422299 Nov 24, 2012
Resurrectionologist wrote:
<quoted text>
Have you been to Jerusalem? Why do you tell me that the platform that the temple rested on was part of the temple when I have seen it for myself and can tell you it's not?

So why not just say, "Okay, the information might be correct, but I choose not to accept it." Why not just go that route? it would be more honest than what you're currently doing.
Because your information is not correct. I am not impressed that you "looked" at it. Do you possibly tell yourself that we haven't seen it, and must take your word? We can look at it too, in books, documentaries, and we can "go" to it right now in Google maps.

The Wailing Wall formed a portion of the outer wall of the Temple grounds, not the foundation. In short, it was, most emphatically, a wall. Your assertion is patently ludicrous. It is curious as to why you insist on making this distinction. You have shown thus far that you consider your gratuitous speculations to be superior even to that of non-controversial scholarly inquiry. This one is by far the most egregious, and pointless, of the several you've proposed. It's only possible motive is to somehow demonstrate that you possess insights that have eluded scholars and scientists for centuries.

You probably don't realize that this display of yours is a perfect - perfect - example of the multi-layered legend-building process that has taken place around the corpse of Jesus. Convince enough people of your "vision", and we have yet another Christian splinter group, based on foolishness. This is why the Christian faith is split into tens of thousands of denominations. It is only the stability imposed by the secular state that keeps you all from disintegrating into the holy wars that plagued Europe for centuries, and plagues Islam to this day.

“The future begins”

Since: Jul 07

every moment

#422300 Nov 24, 2012
water_nymph wrote:
<quoted text> I am sorry to hear that you do historical research as a profession. I hope it has nothing to do with Biblical research. You're not objective enough to do that.
An "historical research" profession could be as assistant librarian in the public school system. Judging by the vague references he's thrown out so far, he could be a Doctor of Biblical Studies, or just another fundie poser trying to bluff his way through a debate by cowing the illiterati with his "credentials".

Since: Sep 12

Location hidden

#422301 Nov 24, 2012
Kaitlin the Wolf Witch wrote:
<quoted text>
Here's another "christian" accusing me of hating someone.
Hey, dummy? Where'd you ever get the idea that I hate Grace? I happen to like her. I don't agree with her religious beliefs, but she has never been pushy or rude to me; therefore, I treat her with the same respect she shows me.
We also work in the same field.
You fundies are always so quick on the trigger to accuse *others* of hate.
Hi Kaitlin..There is only one group of "socks" on here that try a little "too" hard to turn you and me against one another all the time..Yes, we disagree on a lot but we still treat one another with respect. I have talked with you through private message and you respectfully declined to believe and I respectfully accepted your right to your own decision...Thats all I feel that I should do..Expect continue to be friendly and love all people. Did you have a nice Thanksgiving? I let my husband open his Christmas present early....I paid for a Walt Disney trip for us. He has never been and never flew in a airplane before..I just couldnt keep it a secret any longer. We will go away for a week in January..Its going to be awesome.

“ Ah see's lanlubbers Cap'n BT!”

Since: Oct 10

Location hidden

#422302 Nov 24, 2012
JOlatidoye wrote:
<quoted text>
LOL
People complain Christians and other religious folk shove religion down their throats, yet atheists and agnostics and other "non-believers" make statements like this. Aren't you doing the same thing you accuse religious people of doing?
Try reading the title of the thread dummy.

“Live Love Laugh”

Since: Aug 07

Rings of Saturn Emporium

#422303 Nov 24, 2012
Resurrectionologist wrote:
<quoted text>
Yes I can. Not with 100% certainty mind you, but ancient history isn't 100% certain. The criteria is "more plausible than not." Anyone who thinks that the standard is the same as a criminal court case "beyond reasonable doubt" isn't being realistic.
So in a nutshell, the writings of Origen and Irenaeus do claim that Matthew wrote his gospel in Aramaic/Hebrew while still in Palestine, and this is consistent with the language and Jewish themes we see there. Now I have admitted that I am speculating when I say he probably took notes while Jesus was still alive, as we really have no way of knowing. But on it's own merit, as a tax collector, wouldn't it be sensible to consider that he was literate and had access to writing materials?
Also, St Augustine quotes from Eusebius and other early church fathers as such:(Before dismissing it, look it up and read it for yourself. I am much more interested in pointing you in the right direction than I am trying to convince you myself)
"Now, those four evangelists whose names have gained the most remarkable circulation over the whole world, and whose number has been fixed as four,…are believed to have written in the order which follows: first Matthew, then Mark, thirdly Luke, lastly John."
"Of these four, it is true, only Matthew is reckoned to have written in the Hebrew language; the others in Greek. And however they may appear to have kept each of them a certain order of narration proper to himself, this certainly is not to be taken as if each individual writer chose to write in ignorance of what his predecessor had done."
-St. Augustine, The Harmony of the Gospels, 2.
Origen, Irenaeus and Eusebeus did not write about Jesus during his lifetime. In fact, they were not even a gleam in their mother's eye during Jesus lifetime.

Origen lived from late second century to mid third century. He argued in favor of a spiritual rendering of the story of Jesus rather than a historical one, so using him as a historical source is pure irony. Also the fact that he was posthumously excommunicated by the church for his heretical commentary about Jesus and his ideas about pre-existence/transmigration and other things doesn't help your cause. He believed wholeheartedly in the reunification of all souls with God, no matter what. In other words, once saved/always saved. Peeved the church officials even hundreds of years later. Though he was the most prolific writer on Jesus, he was also the most controversial. He certainly had nothing more than what he had learned from previous writings. How could he? He was born almost 200 years later.

Irenaeus is an interesting person also. He was the one who named the four gospels and put them in the order he thought they should go. He wrote out the reasons as to why he thought they belonged in the approved teachings around 180 CE. It seems the Council of Laodicea agreed with him 170 or so years later. Until Irenaeus put the gospels together, there is no evidence that there were any 'approved' and not.

Eusebius was a historian who wrote is treatise on Jesus some time in the early 4th century, but very few of his works were saved because of the controversy in the 4th century of his advocacy of Arianism. But even he realized there were discrepancies between the gospels as he wrote a whole work on it.
Most of what we know about Eusebius is known through the writings of Jerome in the 4th century and Socrates and Theodoret in the 5th century.

None of these men knew anything of Jesus personally, but only the gospels they had read. By the time of Eusebius, it is doubtful that there were any original copies of the writings of any of the four gospel writers.

As I said before, if you have people who write accounts when an event happens with a well known person and all the accounts match, then there is probably more historical fact. If you don't, then it is mere speculation.
to be continued

Since: Sep 12

Location hidden

#422304 Nov 24, 2012
JOlatidoye wrote:
<quoted text>
Why cant people believe what they want? What bearing does it have on your life? How does it affect you and how you live? In my country (U.S.), we are free to believe what we want.
We CAN believe anyway we want too. People can also choose to NOT believe. It is childish to fuss and fight over all this. I treat people with the same repect that they treat me with...Have a great night JO.

Since: Sep 12

Location hidden

#422305 Nov 24, 2012
Black Thunder 42 wrote:
<quoted text>
Try reading the title of the thread dummy.
Hi BT...I have missed you..How was your Thanksgiving?

“CHRISTIANITYIS AMENTAL DISEASE”

Since: May 10

"---TOO BAD IT'S NOT FATAL"

#422306 Nov 24, 2012
JOlatidoye wrote:
<quoted text>
Why cant people believe what they want? What bearing does it have on your life? How does it affect you and how you live? In my country (U.S.), we are free to believe what we want.
Tell it to "Zen Master Ein," he's the one who falsely accused me of hating Grace Walker.

“The future begins”

Since: Jul 07

every moment

#422307 Nov 24, 2012
Resurrectionologist wrote:
<quoted text>
Yes I can. Not with 100% certainty mind you, but ancient history isn't 100% certain. The criteria is "more plausible than not." Anyone who thinks that the standard is the same as a criminal court case "beyond reasonable doubt" isn't being realistic.
So in a nutshell, the writings of Origen and Irenaeus do claim that Matthew wrote his gospel in Aramaic/Hebrew while still in Palestine, and this is consistent with the language and Jewish themes we see there. Now I have admitted that I am speculating when I say he probably took notes while Jesus was still alive, as we really have no way of knowing. But on it's own merit, as a tax collector, wouldn't it be sensible to consider that he was literate and had access to writing materials?
I freely stipulate that Levi was very likely literate, and had regular use of writing materials in the course of his occupation.

How is it that we have thousands upon thousands of copies of NT writings, in various languages, but not one fragment of this Hebrew Matthew?

Produce a fragment of Hebrew Matthew, or chalk it up to wishful thinking. You are speculating, I am not. The vast consensus of Biblical paleography assigns it as the 2nd gospel, dependent on Mark and the Q source, as well as his own unique "additions". Textual analysis indicates an age after the destruction of Jerusalem and prior to Ignatius, or iow, 70-100CE. It was not written by the apostle Levi, but ascribed to him by an anonymous author, most likely originating in Antioch, again, as revealed by textual analysis. His understanding of Jewish custom is superficial, and his knowledge of Hebrew scripture is rife with error, produced most likely from a dependence on the faulty Septuagint translation. His anti-Semitic attitude is nearly as egregious, but just as historically tragic, as John's "Good News". This is not speculation, but historical fact.

“Live Love Laugh”

Since: Aug 07

Rings of Saturn Emporium

#422308 Nov 24, 2012
Resurrectionologist wrote:
<quoted text>
Yes I can. Not with 100% certainty mind you, but ancient history isn't 100% certain. The criteria is "more plausible than not." Anyone who thinks that the standard is the same as a criminal court case "beyond reasonable doubt" isn't being realistic.
So in a nutshell, the writings of Origen and Irenaeus do claim that Matthew wrote his gospel in Aramaic/Hebrew while still in Palestine, and this is consistent with the language and Jewish themes we see there. Now I have admitted that I am speculating when I say he probably took notes while Jesus was still alive, as we really have no way of knowing. But on it's own merit, as a tax collector, wouldn't it be sensible to consider that he was literate and had access to writing materials?
Also, St Augustine quotes from Eusebius and other early church fathers as such:(Before dismissing it, look it up and read it for yourself. I am much more interested in pointing you in the right direction than I am trying to convince you myself)
"Now, those four evangelists whose names have gained the most remarkable circulation over the whole world, and whose number has been fixed as four,…are believed to have written in the order which follows: first Matthew, then Mark, thirdly Luke, lastly John."
"Of these four, it is true, only Matthew is reckoned to have written in the Hebrew language; the others in Greek. And however they may appear to have kept each of them a certain order of narration proper to himself, this certainly is not to be taken as if each individual writer chose to write in ignorance of what his predecessor had done."
-St. Augustine, The Harmony of the Gospels, 2.
Saint Augustine was not even born until mid-4th century. He took his information from others who had never met Jesus (Origen, Eusebius, etc).

If your profession is historical research, then you should know that the writings of these men is no more accurate than would be yours if you were writing on my great, great, great, great grandfather whom you never met, never a member of the family, never had any writings by or about my great, great, great, great grandfather while he was alive. All you would have is the stories told for several centuries, expanded on by family and friends and while it might hold some truth, it is impossible to know whether it does or not.

This is the reason I said I hope you are not a Biblical researcher. You do not have the scholar's eye to do so, IMO.

“CHRISTIANITYIS AMENTAL DISEASE”

Since: May 10

"---TOO BAD IT'S NOT FATAL"

#422309 Nov 24, 2012
Grace Walker wrote:
<quoted text>
Hi Kaitlin..There is only one group of "socks" on here that try a little "too" hard to turn you and me against one another all the time..Yes, we disagree on a lot but we still treat one another with respect. I have talked with you through private message and you respectfully declined to believe and I respectfully accepted your right to your own decision...Thats all I feel that I should do..Expect continue to be friendly and love all people.
You truly are a sweetheart; don't ever change!
Grace Walker wrote:
<quoted text> Did you have a nice Thanksgiving? I let my husband open his Christmas present early....I paid for a Walt Disney trip for us.
*Oo*-rah! How cool is *that??* Which one are you guys going to? I've been to Disneyland in Anaheim a number of times as a little (and even as a not-so-little) girl; I loved it! I've never been to the one in Florida, though.
Grace Walker wrote:
<quoted text>He has never been and never flew in a airplane before..I just couldnt keep it a secret any longer. We will go away for a week in January..Its going to be awesome.
I know it will; Disneyland and Disney World have a way of turning us all into wide-eyed little kids again.

“The future begins”

Since: Jul 07

every moment

#422310 Nov 24, 2012
water_nymph wrote:
<quoted text> Origen, Irenaeus and Eusebeus did not write about Jesus during his lifetime. In fact, they were not even a gleam in their mother's eye during Jesus lifetime.
Origen lived from late second century to mid third century. He argued in favor of a spiritual rendering of the story of Jesus rather than a historical one, so using him as a historical source is pure irony. Also the fact that he was posthumously excommunicated by the church for his heretical commentary about Jesus and his ideas about pre-existence/transmigration and other things doesn't help your cause. He believed wholeheartedly in the reunification of all souls with God, no matter what. In other words, once saved/always saved. Peeved the church officials even hundreds of years later. Though he was the most prolific writer on Jesus, he was also the most controversial. He certainly had nothing more than what he had learned from previous writings. How could he? He was born almost 200 years later.
Irenaeus is an interesting person also. He was the one who named the four gospels and put them in the order he thought they should go. He wrote out the reasons as to why he thought they belonged in the approved teachings around 180 CE. It seems the Council of Laodicea agreed with him 170 or so years later. Until Irenaeus put the gospels together, there is no evidence that there were any 'approved' and not.
Eusebius was a historian who wrote is treatise on Jesus some time in the early 4th century, but very few of his works were saved because of the controversy in the 4th century of his advocacy of Arianism. But even he realized there were discrepancies between the gospels as he wrote a whole work on it.
Most of what we know about Eusebius is known through the writings of Jerome in the 4th century and Socrates and Theodoret in the 5th century.
None of these men knew anything of Jesus personally, but only the gospels they had read. By the time of Eusebius, it is doubtful that there were any original copies of the writings of any of the four gospel writers.
As I said before, if you have people who write accounts when an event happens with a well known person and all the accounts match, then there is probably more historical fact. If you don't, then it is mere speculation.
to be continued
Good stuff, Maynard.

Isn't Iraneus the one who rationalizes the use of four gospels, because there were "four winds, and four corners of the earth", so it just seemed right and proper that there should be four gospels?

“Live Love Laugh”

Since: Aug 07

Rings of Saturn Emporium

#422311 Nov 24, 2012
HipGnosis wrote:
<quoted text>This is supposed to be analogous to the gospel "witnesses", with the same technology, right?
So, to begin, you weren't born yet, so "eyewitness" is out.
You have no written record.
You have nothing left but interviews with witnesses and participants. But wait! Most, if not all, of whom are now dead. So, your witness list is very short. You can interview friends and colleagues. Now we're at second-hand.
I'll really be interested to see how you sort this out. Second shooter on the grassy knoll, or not? What's up with the mystery bullet on the gurney? Was the Mafia involved? Castro? LBJ?
And we're just scratching the surface.
Actually, with all the rumors and conspiracy theories swirling around the JFK assassination, the subject is far murkier now than it was in 1963. The fact is, you could not write an authoritative account 50 years later. The best you could do is recap the various theories and scuttlebutt, and scribble out your opinion as to which works for you.
Kinda like the "gospels". Right?
Great analogy.
AT least we know JFK died of a gunshot wound to the head, as there is at least one movie of it. Even with that, there are still inaccuracies in the reporting and conspiracy theories galore.

Since: Sep 12

Location hidden

#422312 Nov 24, 2012
Kaitlin the Wolf Witch wrote:
<quoted text>
Tell it to "Zen Master Ein," he's the one who falsely accused me of hating Grace Walker.
Zen Master is Lie Buster..I know that you don't hate me. Thats why HE hates me. Thats ok though. We will continue to be on friendly terms. I have no reason to hate anybody..not even zen master/lie buser/knowledge/viking/lord hoho and all his other personalities.

“Live Love Laugh”

Since: Aug 07

Rings of Saturn Emporium

#422313 Nov 24, 2012
Resurrectionologist wrote:
<quoted text>
Have you been to Jerusalem? Why do you tell me that the platform that the temple rested on was part of the temple when I have seen it for myself and can tell you it's not?
Let me put it another way.
What do I have to gain?
Are you going to join my church? I doubt it. I'm not asking you to.
Are you going to send me money? I don't want or need your money.
I don't want to say "I told you so! Neener! Neener!"
Oh and as far as historical writing goes, nobody is 100% objective in writing history. Everyone has some presuppositions. I know I do.
The important thing is to keep them to a minimum.
I didn't become a historian to validate my faith. I was agnostic when I was injured as a firefighter in southern New York State. After hip surgery, I had to find a new profession. I put myself through college, most days in pain. I decided on history. I never expected to become a spiritual person. The evidence I found is what finally convinced me. Not the other way around. I learned that history is not 100% absolute. Neither is faith. But I have come to that place in my life where I have had the experiences and the formal education to know what I'm talking about, and my conclusion is that the origins of Christianity as we currently know it are far more likely than not.
You don't have to become a Christian. Nobody is forcing you to do so. I think that you're afraid that the information is correct. If the information we evangelical apologists is more likely than unlikely, then you have choices to make. It is those choices that bother you.
So why not just say, "Okay, the information might be correct, but I choose not to accept it." Why not just go that route? it would be more honest than what you're currently doing.
I'm not afraid of any information that is historically correct. I am not afraid of apologetics, for sure.

I choose not to accept things that were written decades and centuries after the fact by people who never met the person of whom they wrote because I have no way of knowing whether it is correct or not. While there may be some truth in it, I can see the evolution of the teachings of the gospels and how Jesus became grander over time. This is like playing telephone.

Why don't you just admit that it's your belief and you'll not look at anything that disagrees with what you believe? That's what I see.

I have no doubt that you are intelligent enough to put together pieces of the puzzle for yourself. But I don't think you are a historian in any true sense of the word as you totally ignore the methods of historians when presenting your 'research'.

Since: Sep 12

Location hidden

#422314 Nov 24, 2012
Kaitlin the Wolf Witch wrote:
<quoted text>
You truly are a sweetheart; don't ever change!
<quoted text>
*Oo*-rah! How cool is *that??* Which one are you guys going to? I've been to Disneyland in Anaheim a number of times as a little (and even as a not-so-little) girl; I loved it! I've never been to the one in Florida, though.
<quoted text>
I know it will; Disneyland and Disney World have a way of turning us all into wide-eyed little kids again.
We are going to Orlando Florida. I went to Animal Kindom, Sea World and Universal Studios with my boss 2 years ago. They had a Vet Conference in Orlando and she always takes 2 of her employee's with her. I got to go...Yeah, We will have a blast.. I wanted to give him a Christmas Gift that he will always remember. He LOVED it. Now, He is constantly watching the Disney videos and checking out the rides..LOL

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