Why I知 no longer a Christian

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“H-o-o-o-o-o-o-ld on thar!”

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#422135
Nov 23, 2012
 
Tide with Beach wrote:
<quoted text>
Romans go home!
http://www.youtube.com/watch...
Romani ite domum!
*helpless laughter*

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#422136
Nov 23, 2012
 
G_O_D wrote:
<quoted text>
Hi Karl!
hi Guy

“Hello Darlings!”

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#422137
Nov 23, 2012
 
TJ Monk wrote:
<quoted text>
Jesus exsisted Freakshow.
No he didn't, coward viking. And there's nothing you can do about it.
TJ Monk wrote:
<quoted text> No other person EVER has affected our humanity.
History is filled with *REAL* people who have affected our humanity for the better.
TJ Monk wrote:
<quoted text> Why not put your real picture on the page....I think you are an ugly......
I defy you to prove that it *isn't* my real picture. I think you are an idiot; and I don't care what *you* think.

“Hello Darlings!”

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#422138
Nov 23, 2012
 
Resurrectionologist wrote:
<quoted text>
I can tell that you comprehend the bible in a literal manner.
Hey, it's *your* literal word of god, not mine. Unless you admit that it's more what you'd call guidelines, in which case you are in direct contradiction to the christian faith.

Resurrectionologist wrote:
<quoted text>It's useless trying to explain it, because you don't want an explanation
No, it's because you *can't* explain it.
Resurrectionologist wrote:
<quoted text> Now if you want to talk about dogs or cats, I'm sure you will know more than I do. I know they have fur. Dogs bark, and cats meow. They eat. They poop. They play. Feel free to tell me all about them. I think that's why you take the bible literally.
Do you, as a christian, take your bible as "god's infallible word?" A simple yes or no will do.
Resurrectionologist wrote:
<quoted text> You're so used to reading charts where what it says is what it means, and that's fine for the medical profession. But that approach doesn't work with the Bible. I can admit that the bible can be a very difficult piece of literature to comprehend.
I comprehend the English version well enough; it's crap.
Resurrectionologist wrote:
<quoted text> Anyone who says they have it all figured out 100% is crazy,
Then that includes me, Thomas Paine, and millions of other people. I'm in good company.
Resurrectionologist wrote:
<quoted text> .... While many of you may think I'm arrogant, I can assure you that I'm really not. But for a layman who has never been enrolled in a theological seminary or other divinity school, I think I'm way above average in my knowledge.
Yeah, you would. What else is new?

“ Ah see's lanlubbers Cap'n BT!”

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#422140
Nov 23, 2012
 

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Resurrectionologist wrote:
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Good imagination, but a pure straw-man fallacy. In your analogy you're using the modern criminal procedure template in which the standard is beyond a reasonable doubt. With regard to history, the criteria aren't that high. It would be unreasonable and ridiculous to even attempt to hold history to such a high standard. I should know. I conduct historical research part time for a local historical society. Whether secular or religious, all reliable history must adhere to basic criteria. Now I'm sure you have some Biblical text in mind that you want to apply this analogy to. So what is it?
How about Mark 1:[9] And it came to pass in those days, that Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee, and was baptized of John in Jordan.

Nazareth of Galilee did not even exist at the time of jesus(proven by archeology). It didn't exist until after 100 AD-and not where the catholics said it did. It would have been impossible and totally inappropriate, as it was an area of burial.
There goes the credibility of the gospel...and it proves the fact that it was written after the cite was actually established, and the writer did not even realize it at the time it was written.

“ Ah see's lanlubbers Cap'n BT!”

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#422141
Nov 23, 2012
 
"archaeology"

“Thank you GOD for JESUS”

Since: Jul 07

And thank you JESUS for caring

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#422142
Nov 24, 2012
 
Kaitlin the Wolf Witch wrote:
Kaitlin the Wolf Witch wrote:
<quoted text>
Your jesus never existed, and your buybull's "prophecies" are so vague and ambiguous as to be totally meaningless, yet easily *interpreted* as accurate after any given event. Not only do professional psychics work the same way, they undoubtedly got the idea for their scam from the buybull.
<quoted text>
And I don't take your cherry picked sources seriously.
You never did answer my quesiton: what does your god have to gain by punishing people for all eternity in the "lake of fire" for committing the thought crime of disbelief? What is there to be learned?
<quoted text>
Then you are in direct conflict with your "word of god."
<quoted text>
Then you disagree again with your buybull.
<quoted text>
That's not what your buybull says, though.
<quoted text>
Revelations 21:8--"But for the cowardly and UNBELIEVING (emphasis added, just for you) and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."
This clearly shows that *disbelief is a thought crime.*
<quoted text>
That does not tell us what he *does* gain by throwing people into the aforementioned lake of fire for the aforementioned thought crime of disbelief, as described in your bible.
<quoted text>
In other words, slavish and blind obedience. Thanks for clearing that up.
For a christian, you sure do contradict your "infallible word of God" a lot. Or are you prepared to concede the fact that the bible, like Captain Barbossa's Pirate's Code, "is more what you'd call guidelines" than the actual word of god?
You never answered *that* question, either.
Revelations 21:8--"But for the cowardly and UNBELIEVING (emphasis added, just for you) and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."

Second death WW, not the first death, which is the physical death! Why would all of the above in 21:8 end up in the same place as those who have an honorable intent? It is bad enough living with them here on earth, we surely don't need that for eternity. We each take with us that which we have earned.......

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#422143
Nov 24, 2012
 

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Kaitlin the Wolf Witch wrote:
<quoted text>
No he didn't, coward viking. And there's nothing you can do about it.
<quoted text>
History is filled with *REAL* people who have affected our humanity for the better.
<quoted text>
I defy you to prove that it *isn't* my real picture. I think you are an idiot; and I don't care what *you* think.
May I suggest that we make out? I am a good looking male .....if you look like your pic.....I would do you so well........

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Anderson, IN

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#422144
Nov 24, 2012
 

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Serah wrote:
<quoted text>
Revelations 21:8--"But for the cowardly and UNBELIEVING (emphasis added, just for you) and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."
Second death WW, not the first death, which is the physical death! Why would all of the above in 21:8 end up in the same place as those who have an honorable intent? It is bad enough living with them here on earth, we surely don't need that for eternity. We each take with us that which we have earned.......
Seriously? You quote Revelations in judging others? Wouldn't you better serve your alleged status as a Christian by quoting Christ on tolerance, love, nonjudgment and compassion? Just saying...

“What do I know?”

Since: Apr 08

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#422145
Nov 24, 2012
 
Just Results wrote:
<quoted text>
Fine. Then go to Hell where you belong, you stupid ass.
Hell is a fable.

Never really thought much about it, have you?

And getting angry doesn't achieve anything.

Bye, now.

“Selected Marksman”

Since: Aug 08

Northern Virginia

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#422146
Nov 24, 2012
 
HipGnosis wrote:
<quoted text>
I'll tell ya, friend, if you don't see the smug condescending tone you've taken to using, you are quite possibly borderline sociopathic. If you are aware of it, then you're just another puffed-up pompous piety-peddler. We've seen scores of them file through here, believe me, each one declaring their Pyrrhic "victories", which itself belies a deep insecurity. In either case, it ain't conducive to a genuine dialogue. Just sayin'...
You're not going to catch too many flies using this tactic of asserting your research as somehow more in-depth and superior to those you deign to converse with. Again, if you've never come across anything that gives you pause, and so far you've admitted none, then you very obviously "researched" only that which underscored your pre-convictions. At the same time, you recognize it as a weakness, so you attempt to pre-emptively blunt such a charge with the common rhetorical tactic of accusing it in others before it can be used against you.
How would it be if you assume that your dance partner may have tramped these steps just as lively as yourself? Could it be that these lowly sinners really DO take the question seriously, really DO yearn for spiritual and/or philosophical truths, really do care for the nature of man and his folly? I've said it before - we ain't no young pups here (but dashed good-looking for all that;) and we're well past the age of seeking to escape our responsibilities to a possible God. We each of us also have our own "very unique perspective" on the scripture we grew up with, and which many of us lived with conviction, until that is, we got really serious about it and actually examined that which we'd believed. A little credit, as a courtesy, if nothing else?
<quoted text>This is where your argument is weakest. It is the "core historical" FACTS (as opposed to subjective "truths") that most severely undermine the gospel accounts, and yes, I say that having researched extensively the cultural and historical context. Again, faith that relies on historical "truths" is not faith at all. Paul warned you about that, didn't he?
Very well said Hip...excellent.

“Selected Marksman”

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#422147
Nov 24, 2012
 

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Just Results wrote:
<quoted text>
My day started off great yesterday....just like every day does. I'm not the one going to Hell.
It's YOU that starts and ends each day in misery and fear.
This is the stuff used to indoctrinate children and weak minded people.
You are in the wrong place christer. We don't buy your projection.
Maybe if you gave up your religion you'd undersand that others don't live in the misery and fear you've been taught to experience.
I pity you.

“Selected Marksman”

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#422148
Nov 24, 2012
 

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Resurrectionologist wrote:
<quoted text>
I have answered you a few times. I'll answer again. Would you like me to e-mail it to you to make sure you get it?
I do not believe that God punishes people in the way that you're thinking. I believe that hell does exist, but not as a lake of fire that people physically burn in. I believe hell is a state of eternal consciousness separate from light and love and joy. Hell as I understand it is a place of darkness, loneliness, and regret, in which our spirit languishes forever. It is not for the "crime of disbelief" as you say. The punishment is our own upon ourselves.
What does God gain? God gains no joy by not allowing us into Heaven. What He does gain are His creations who are willing to abide in peace and love with Him.
The sheer number of descriptions and beliefs and variations about what some heaven and hell are by the 38,000+ christian sects/cults nullify any possible valitidy as to their existance.

“Selected Marksman”

Since: Aug 08

Northern Virginia

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#422149
Nov 24, 2012
 

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USN Atheist wrote:
<quoted text>
You are correct, no one is going to "hell". It is amusing how you and others still keep the fear alive...using the same tactics as have been used for centuries although now many look at the likes of you and laugh.
It is applied and works on Children all the time.
I think there should be a harsh penalty for lying to a Child.

“Live Love Laugh”

Since: Aug 07

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#422150
Nov 24, 2012
 
Resurrectionologist wrote:
<quoted text>

To WN: I saw your comment about having a conversation and being civil. I can be quite civil. I get that you have your own views that you don't feel that I should be correcting. I'm okay with that. What else would you like to discuss? I'm entrenched in my views because of my experiences and research, not because I have a need to be right. I consider my standards to be realistic regarding the historical evidence for Jesus and Christianity. It's taken me years to reach this point in my personal quest for truth, and I'm not about to stop now. We are each entrenched, and neither is willing to concede or compromise our respective understandings of what we hold true. So would you care to tell me what your views are and why you hold them?
First of all, I feel the way I do (and I say 'feel' because faith/belief is just that, emotion) because of my experiences and my research.

For years I felt the need to do exactly what you do, and explain my religious beliefs to people. I did the research because I had questions....questions no one could answer. Those questions involved why God could find no way to correct the problems of his creations without committing genocide; why millions of children not only suffer in this life and go to bed hungry every night or are abused; why good people who are just as devout in their devotion to God should be punished because they do not wear the title of 'Christian'. And that's just the tip of the iceberg.

Just like you, I used the apologetics I found that agreed with my beliefs for decades. Finally, when I could no longer be dishonest with myself, I truly started on a search to confirm my faith.

It was only when I took of the 'suit of armor' that so many Christians talk about that my research, prayer and finally, honesty with myself that I left the church. I found that the suit of armor is ignorance. As long as you wear it, you'll blind yourself to all reason and all things divine. You will only have a fleeting sense of either safety or truly knowing the divine. When I say God, I am not talking about a man-God who made himself a divine being and then came to earth as a man and got himself killed for being a rebel. Nor am I talking about a man-God who, according to Paul, couldn't teach everything he was supposed to teach so that Paul had to come along and straighten out the things Jesus was mistaken about while Jesus/God himself went back to living in heaven with no problems while the fate of those he came to save is exactly the same. Believe or be abandoned/burned/annihiliated/ whatever.

I do not discuss my beliefs because they are personal. Telling the honest truth, all beliefs are personal. Each person's beliefs are just what you said yours are...based on personal experience and their own research. So if all beliefs are based on personal experience, none are universal. That's the reason there are 38,000 sects of Christianity *listed*, while in truth it is multiplied by the number of practicing Christians.

One example of you needing to be right is posted right here on Topix for the last couple of days. You stated III & IV Kings had was changed to 1 & 2 Kings. You said that I and II Esdras was changed to Ezra and Nehemiah. You said it was just a case of the names of the books being changed and nothing more.

I posted text from all the books under question and showed you that they are not the same books with just a name change. If it was a case of name change as you said, the texts would have remained the same as does Ezra and Nehemiah after the book of Ezra was split into two books. When you compare the older book of Ezra, you will see that it contains both Ezra and Nehemiah. The same is not true in the way you stated it. But you dismissed it without even looking further. I would have done the same at one point in my life.

And you never gave me your source for believing that they are all the same.*shrug*

“Selected Marksman”

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#422151
Nov 24, 2012
 

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Zen Master Ein wrote:
<quoted text>You know that you are crazy. With a name like wolf witch the only thing that you have figured out is that you are mentally not functioning.
Another sock pops in with nothing to say.

“Selected Marksman”

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#422152
Nov 24, 2012
 

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Serah wrote:
<quoted text>
Revelations 21:8--"But for the cowardly and UNBELIEVING (emphasis added, just for you) and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."
Second death WW, not the first death, which is the physical death! Why would all of the above in 21:8 end up in the same place as those who have an honorable intent? It is bad enough living with them here on earth, we surely don't need that for eternity. We each take with us that which we have earned.......
My my, what nice thoughts you have for your fellow humans who have committed no crime.
You hateful christians are odd if not completely illogical.

“Selected Marksman”

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#422153
Nov 24, 2012
 

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TJ Monk wrote:
<quoted text>
May I suggest that we make out? I am a good looking male .....if you look like your pic.....I would do you so well........
Another waaaasup sock.

“Live Love Laugh”

Since: Aug 07

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#422154
Nov 24, 2012
 
Resurrectionologist wrote:
<quoted text>
Now this is a statement I can respect. Not because you agree he exists, but because you also look at the fact that while the evidence isn't 100% certain (an impossible standard in determining ancient history) you entertain that his existence is more likely than not.
Now with regard to contemporary accounts of Jesus written during His lifetime, I really do believe that it's at least plausible that one writer did record some of what Jesus said and did. Matthew, the tax collector. I do admit that it's speculation, but I don't need absolute conclusive "beyond-reasonable-doubt- Perry Mason-criminal-procedure-law " proof. I just need it to be more plausible than not. This is the way ancient history is evaluated with regard to what is available. It's realistic.
Consider the likelihood. A tax collector would be expected to keep notes in relation to his duties. Papyrus was readily available, and still is today in Egypt and other areas of the Middle East. A Jewish tax collector turned disciple would be more likely to record his experiences. Why? Because in that day and age, tax collectors were despised by nearly everybody. If it were me, I would want to write it all down because who would believe it later on if it remained just a few anecdotal stories told around a warming fire? Now I'm aware that this is a version of ethnocentrism too, but I try to avoid this as much as possible. I am speculating based upon what is known of tax collectors in Jewish society. At some point, we have to speculate because historical evidence becomes more elusive as time passes. Now you know what I think and how I reason this logically. I hope my tone here is civil enough for you.
It is 'possible' that the apostle Matthew wrote something down during the life of Jesus. However, no writings have ever been found that date to that time. So I look at it as 'possible', but not likely because the evidence is not there.

The authors of the 4 gospels are highly debated. Most scholars now agree that it is unlikely that any of the books named for the apostles were actually their writings, and with good reason. This includes Matthew. Even Dr. Craig Blomberg (author of A Case for Christ) says this:'It's important to acknowledge that strictly speaking, the gospels are anonymous.'

You say you don't take the Bible literally, yet you still believe against all the scholarship done by Bible Scholars such as Blomberg that the 4 gospels were written by the apostles themselves.

The gospel of Matthew cannot have been written by him, as it speaks of him in the third person. When these books were written, the words 'according to' meant 'in the tradition of', not 'written by'. In other words, the books are simply the understanding the writer had of the teachings and is second-hand. This is the reason that they disagree. Each person on earth sees the words and interprets them in the manner in which they are able to understand them.

Each of the apostles went off on their own, teaching as they understood. None of them match. And yes, the differences DO make a difference in core Christian doctrine or there would not be any arguments over who has the right translations/interpretations. Standing on the outside, it now seems extremely silly to see Christians argue over who has the right dogma.

Ancient history is a specialized area of study. I trust no apologist to give me correct information on Christian history simply because they start off with an answer and then fit the puzzle pieces to confirm their answer. They do not question; they only appear to question, but only ask a 'leading' question that will take you to their idea. For those apologists who do use historical facts, they mostly bend those facts to suit their preconceived answer.

It was hard for me to change my point of view and actually learn to leave the apologists to their own demise.

“Live Love Laugh”

Since: Aug 07

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#422155
Nov 24, 2012
 
macumazahn wrote:
<quoted text>I remain unsurprised.
What was that word again?
Buttinsky?
Interferenceist?
Oh, "Interventionist". That was it.
Actually, I was pleasantly surprised that he came back to finish the discussion. Though I was not pleasantly surprised to find that the information I gave was thrown out immediately.

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