“Thank you GOD for JESUS”

Since: Jul 07

And thank you JESUS for caring

#422142 Nov 24, 2012
Kaitlin the Wolf Witch wrote:
Kaitlin the Wolf Witch wrote:
<quoted text>
Your jesus never existed, and your buybull's "prophecies" are so vague and ambiguous as to be totally meaningless, yet easily *interpreted* as accurate after any given event. Not only do professional psychics work the same way, they undoubtedly got the idea for their scam from the buybull.
<quoted text>
And I don't take your cherry picked sources seriously.
You never did answer my quesiton: what does your god have to gain by punishing people for all eternity in the "lake of fire" for committing the thought crime of disbelief? What is there to be learned?
<quoted text>
Then you are in direct conflict with your "word of god."
<quoted text>
Then you disagree again with your buybull.
<quoted text>
That's not what your buybull says, though.
<quoted text>
Revelations 21:8--"But for the cowardly and UNBELIEVING (emphasis added, just for you) and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."
This clearly shows that *disbelief is a thought crime.*
<quoted text>
That does not tell us what he *does* gain by throwing people into the aforementioned lake of fire for the aforementioned thought crime of disbelief, as described in your bible.
<quoted text>
In other words, slavish and blind obedience. Thanks for clearing that up.
For a christian, you sure do contradict your "infallible word of God" a lot. Or are you prepared to concede the fact that the bible, like Captain Barbossa's Pirate's Code, "is more what you'd call guidelines" than the actual word of god?
You never answered *that* question, either.
Revelations 21:8--"But for the cowardly and UNBELIEVING (emphasis added, just for you) and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."

Second death WW, not the first death, which is the physical death! Why would all of the above in 21:8 end up in the same place as those who have an honorable intent? It is bad enough living with them here on earth, we surely don't need that for eternity. We each take with us that which we have earned.......

Since: Oct 12

Location hidden

#422143 Nov 24, 2012
Kaitlin the Wolf Witch wrote:
<quoted text>
No he didn't, coward viking. And there's nothing you can do about it.
<quoted text>
History is filled with *REAL* people who have affected our humanity for the better.
<quoted text>
I defy you to prove that it *isn't* my real picture. I think you are an idiot; and I don't care what *you* think.
May I suggest that we make out? I am a good looking male .....if you look like your pic.....I would do you so well........

Since: Sep 08

Anderson, IN

#422144 Nov 24, 2012
Serah wrote:
<quoted text>
Revelations 21:8--"But for the cowardly and UNBELIEVING (emphasis added, just for you) and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."
Second death WW, not the first death, which is the physical death! Why would all of the above in 21:8 end up in the same place as those who have an honorable intent? It is bad enough living with them here on earth, we surely don't need that for eternity. We each take with us that which we have earned.......
Seriously? You quote Revelations in judging others? Wouldn't you better serve your alleged status as a Christian by quoting Christ on tolerance, love, nonjudgment and compassion? Just saying...

“What do I know?”

Since: Apr 08

Rings of Saturn Emporium

#422145 Nov 24, 2012
Just Results wrote:
<quoted text>
Fine. Then go to Hell where you belong, you stupid ass.
Hell is a fable.

Never really thought much about it, have you?

And getting angry doesn't achieve anything.

Bye, now.

“Selected Marksman”

Since: Aug 08

Northern Virginia

#422146 Nov 24, 2012
HipGnosis wrote:
<quoted text>
I'll tell ya, friend, if you don't see the smug condescending tone you've taken to using, you are quite possibly borderline sociopathic. If you are aware of it, then you're just another puffed-up pompous piety-peddler. We've seen scores of them file through here, believe me, each one declaring their Pyrrhic "victories", which itself belies a deep insecurity. In either case, it ain't conducive to a genuine dialogue. Just sayin'...
You're not going to catch too many flies using this tactic of asserting your research as somehow more in-depth and superior to those you deign to converse with. Again, if you've never come across anything that gives you pause, and so far you've admitted none, then you very obviously "researched" only that which underscored your pre-convictions. At the same time, you recognize it as a weakness, so you attempt to pre-emptively blunt such a charge with the common rhetorical tactic of accusing it in others before it can be used against you.
How would it be if you assume that your dance partner may have tramped these steps just as lively as yourself? Could it be that these lowly sinners really DO take the question seriously, really DO yearn for spiritual and/or philosophical truths, really do care for the nature of man and his folly? I've said it before - we ain't no young pups here (but dashed good-looking for all that;) and we're well past the age of seeking to escape our responsibilities to a possible God. We each of us also have our own "very unique perspective" on the scripture we grew up with, and which many of us lived with conviction, until that is, we got really serious about it and actually examined that which we'd believed. A little credit, as a courtesy, if nothing else?
<quoted text>This is where your argument is weakest. It is the "core historical" FACTS (as opposed to subjective "truths") that most severely undermine the gospel accounts, and yes, I say that having researched extensively the cultural and historical context. Again, faith that relies on historical "truths" is not faith at all. Paul warned you about that, didn't he?
Very well said Hip...excellent.

“Selected Marksman”

Since: Aug 08

Northern Virginia

#422147 Nov 24, 2012
Just Results wrote:
<quoted text>
My day started off great yesterday....just like every day does. I'm not the one going to Hell.
It's YOU that starts and ends each day in misery and fear.
This is the stuff used to indoctrinate children and weak minded people.
You are in the wrong place christer. We don't buy your projection.
Maybe if you gave up your religion you'd undersand that others don't live in the misery and fear you've been taught to experience.
I pity you.

“Selected Marksman”

Since: Aug 08

Northern Virginia

#422148 Nov 24, 2012
Resurrectionologist wrote:
<quoted text>
I have answered you a few times. I'll answer again. Would you like me to e-mail it to you to make sure you get it?
I do not believe that God punishes people in the way that you're thinking. I believe that hell does exist, but not as a lake of fire that people physically burn in. I believe hell is a state of eternal consciousness separate from light and love and joy. Hell as I understand it is a place of darkness, loneliness, and regret, in which our spirit languishes forever. It is not for the "crime of disbelief" as you say. The punishment is our own upon ourselves.
What does God gain? God gains no joy by not allowing us into Heaven. What He does gain are His creations who are willing to abide in peace and love with Him.
The sheer number of descriptions and beliefs and variations about what some heaven and hell are by the 38,000+ christian sects/cults nullify any possible valitidy as to their existance.

“Selected Marksman”

Since: Aug 08

Northern Virginia

#422149 Nov 24, 2012
USN Atheist wrote:
<quoted text>
You are correct, no one is going to "hell". It is amusing how you and others still keep the fear alive...using the same tactics as have been used for centuries although now many look at the likes of you and laugh.
It is applied and works on Children all the time.
I think there should be a harsh penalty for lying to a Child.

“Live Love Laugh”

Since: Aug 07

Rings of Saturn Emporium

#422150 Nov 24, 2012
Resurrectionologist wrote:
<quoted text>

To WN: I saw your comment about having a conversation and being civil. I can be quite civil. I get that you have your own views that you don't feel that I should be correcting. I'm okay with that. What else would you like to discuss? I'm entrenched in my views because of my experiences and research, not because I have a need to be right. I consider my standards to be realistic regarding the historical evidence for Jesus and Christianity. It's taken me years to reach this point in my personal quest for truth, and I'm not about to stop now. We are each entrenched, and neither is willing to concede or compromise our respective understandings of what we hold true. So would you care to tell me what your views are and why you hold them?
First of all, I feel the way I do (and I say 'feel' because faith/belief is just that, emotion) because of my experiences and my research.

For years I felt the need to do exactly what you do, and explain my religious beliefs to people. I did the research because I had questions....questions no one could answer. Those questions involved why God could find no way to correct the problems of his creations without committing genocide; why millions of children not only suffer in this life and go to bed hungry every night or are abused; why good people who are just as devout in their devotion to God should be punished because they do not wear the title of 'Christian'. And that's just the tip of the iceberg.

Just like you, I used the apologetics I found that agreed with my beliefs for decades. Finally, when I could no longer be dishonest with myself, I truly started on a search to confirm my faith.

It was only when I took of the 'suit of armor' that so many Christians talk about that my research, prayer and finally, honesty with myself that I left the church. I found that the suit of armor is ignorance. As long as you wear it, you'll blind yourself to all reason and all things divine. You will only have a fleeting sense of either safety or truly knowing the divine. When I say God, I am not talking about a man-God who made himself a divine being and then came to earth as a man and got himself killed for being a rebel. Nor am I talking about a man-God who, according to Paul, couldn't teach everything he was supposed to teach so that Paul had to come along and straighten out the things Jesus was mistaken about while Jesus/God himself went back to living in heaven with no problems while the fate of those he came to save is exactly the same. Believe or be abandoned/burned/annihiliated/ whatever.

I do not discuss my beliefs because they are personal. Telling the honest truth, all beliefs are personal. Each person's beliefs are just what you said yours are...based on personal experience and their own research. So if all beliefs are based on personal experience, none are universal. That's the reason there are 38,000 sects of Christianity *listed*, while in truth it is multiplied by the number of practicing Christians.

One example of you needing to be right is posted right here on Topix for the last couple of days. You stated III & IV Kings had was changed to 1 & 2 Kings. You said that I and II Esdras was changed to Ezra and Nehemiah. You said it was just a case of the names of the books being changed and nothing more.

I posted text from all the books under question and showed you that they are not the same books with just a name change. If it was a case of name change as you said, the texts would have remained the same as does Ezra and Nehemiah after the book of Ezra was split into two books. When you compare the older book of Ezra, you will see that it contains both Ezra and Nehemiah. The same is not true in the way you stated it. But you dismissed it without even looking further. I would have done the same at one point in my life.

And you never gave me your source for believing that they are all the same.*shrug*

“Selected Marksman”

Since: Aug 08

Northern Virginia

#422151 Nov 24, 2012
Zen Master Ein wrote:
<quoted text>You know that you are crazy. With a name like wolf witch the only thing that you have figured out is that you are mentally not functioning.
Another sock pops in with nothing to say.

“Selected Marksman”

Since: Aug 08

Northern Virginia

#422152 Nov 24, 2012
Serah wrote:
<quoted text>
Revelations 21:8--"But for the cowardly and UNBELIEVING (emphasis added, just for you) and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."
Second death WW, not the first death, which is the physical death! Why would all of the above in 21:8 end up in the same place as those who have an honorable intent? It is bad enough living with them here on earth, we surely don't need that for eternity. We each take with us that which we have earned.......
My my, what nice thoughts you have for your fellow humans who have committed no crime.
You hateful christians are odd if not completely illogical.

“Selected Marksman”

Since: Aug 08

Northern Virginia

#422153 Nov 24, 2012
TJ Monk wrote:
<quoted text>
May I suggest that we make out? I am a good looking male .....if you look like your pic.....I would do you so well........
Another waaaasup sock.

“Live Love Laugh”

Since: Aug 07

Rings of Saturn Emporium

#422154 Nov 24, 2012
Resurrectionologist wrote:
<quoted text>
Now this is a statement I can respect. Not because you agree he exists, but because you also look at the fact that while the evidence isn't 100% certain (an impossible standard in determining ancient history) you entertain that his existence is more likely than not.
Now with regard to contemporary accounts of Jesus written during His lifetime, I really do believe that it's at least plausible that one writer did record some of what Jesus said and did. Matthew, the tax collector. I do admit that it's speculation, but I don't need absolute conclusive "beyond-reasonable-doubt- Perry Mason-criminal-procedure-law " proof. I just need it to be more plausible than not. This is the way ancient history is evaluated with regard to what is available. It's realistic.
Consider the likelihood. A tax collector would be expected to keep notes in relation to his duties. Papyrus was readily available, and still is today in Egypt and other areas of the Middle East. A Jewish tax collector turned disciple would be more likely to record his experiences. Why? Because in that day and age, tax collectors were despised by nearly everybody. If it were me, I would want to write it all down because who would believe it later on if it remained just a few anecdotal stories told around a warming fire? Now I'm aware that this is a version of ethnocentrism too, but I try to avoid this as much as possible. I am speculating based upon what is known of tax collectors in Jewish society. At some point, we have to speculate because historical evidence becomes more elusive as time passes. Now you know what I think and how I reason this logically. I hope my tone here is civil enough for you.
It is 'possible' that the apostle Matthew wrote something down during the life of Jesus. However, no writings have ever been found that date to that time. So I look at it as 'possible', but not likely because the evidence is not there.

The authors of the 4 gospels are highly debated. Most scholars now agree that it is unlikely that any of the books named for the apostles were actually their writings, and with good reason. This includes Matthew. Even Dr. Craig Blomberg (author of A Case for Christ) says this:'It's important to acknowledge that strictly speaking, the gospels are anonymous.'

You say you don't take the Bible literally, yet you still believe against all the scholarship done by Bible Scholars such as Blomberg that the 4 gospels were written by the apostles themselves.

The gospel of Matthew cannot have been written by him, as it speaks of him in the third person. When these books were written, the words 'according to' meant 'in the tradition of', not 'written by'. In other words, the books are simply the understanding the writer had of the teachings and is second-hand. This is the reason that they disagree. Each person on earth sees the words and interprets them in the manner in which they are able to understand them.

Each of the apostles went off on their own, teaching as they understood. None of them match. And yes, the differences DO make a difference in core Christian doctrine or there would not be any arguments over who has the right translations/interpretations. Standing on the outside, it now seems extremely silly to see Christians argue over who has the right dogma.

Ancient history is a specialized area of study. I trust no apologist to give me correct information on Christian history simply because they start off with an answer and then fit the puzzle pieces to confirm their answer. They do not question; they only appear to question, but only ask a 'leading' question that will take you to their idea. For those apologists who do use historical facts, they mostly bend those facts to suit their preconceived answer.

It was hard for me to change my point of view and actually learn to leave the apologists to their own demise.

“Live Love Laugh”

Since: Aug 07

Rings of Saturn Emporium

#422155 Nov 24, 2012
macumazahn wrote:
<quoted text>I remain unsurprised.
What was that word again?
Buttinsky?
Interferenceist?
Oh, "Interventionist". That was it.
Actually, I was pleasantly surprised that he came back to finish the discussion. Though I was not pleasantly surprised to find that the information I gave was thrown out immediately.

“Selected Marksman”

Since: Aug 08

Northern Virginia

#422156 Nov 24, 2012
Cookie_Parker wrote:
<quoted text>
Seriously? You quote Revelations in judging others? Wouldn't you better serve your alleged status as a Christian by quoting Christ on tolerance, love, nonjudgment and compassion? Just saying...
The christian indoctrination of hate works well on those who are weak.

“Live Love Laugh”

Since: Aug 07

Rings of Saturn Emporium

#422157 Nov 24, 2012
Resurrectionologist wrote:
<quoted text>

What does God gain? God gains no joy by not allowing us into Heaven. What He does gain are His creations who are willing to abide in peace and love with Him.
I just want to address this one portion of your post.

Why didn't God just make people who would live in peace to start with. It would have eliminated the need for elaborate 'cures', for sure. No murder of a whole planet full of his 'children'. No death of a God-man. No need to grovel at the feet of religion. These are questions that have been answered by many apologists, and excused away because we are God's creations and he can do whatever he wishes with us because of that.

By that analogy, it's okay for humans to commit murder of your own children if they do not obey you or live in peace with you. But Christians will say 'NO!', it's not okay. When they say that, I always tell them that they are then more moral than the God they worship.

So do you believe the flood was an actual event that killed off at least a whole sect of people or do you believe that to be allegory?
HipG2LZ2SignIn

Victoria, IL

#422158 Nov 24, 2012
Kaitlin the Wolf Witch wrote:
<quoted text>
You seem like a pretty smart and trustworthy guy. So tell me--do you buy into this historicized myth? If so, why? Why should *I* buy into it?
I believe down underneath all the mythologizing there very likely existed a charismatic itinerant rabbi/shaman with a message that appealed to the common people but threatend the status quo. It's likely that he was executed for his radical views, among thousands of others over the years; IOW, no one worthy of special note to the ruling class once he was dead. I suspect that he was benignly delusional as to his role in the fulfillment of prophecy. I imagine that his anguished cry at the end offers a glimpse into his realization he might have been wrong, just before he expired. It's really tragic enough without all the dramatic enhancements.

I believe so simply because a preponderance of evidence suggests as much. It's not overwhelming by any means, just enough to cast a reasonable doubt either way. Nothing worth digging my heels in, anyway.

Now, the miraculous signs and stuff? That's a whole 'nother story.....

Since: Nov 12

Location hidden

#422159 Nov 24, 2012
I am not here to judge nor hate on your choice. I would like to remind you that there is a God, a God that never gives up on you and it will never be too late to come back to him.

“Live Love Laugh”

Since: Aug 07

Rings of Saturn Emporium

#422160 Nov 24, 2012
Zen Master Ein wrote:
<quoted text>You know that you are crazy. With a name like wolf witch the only thing that you have figured out is that you are mentally not functioning.
Wassuuuppp sock.

“Live Love Laugh”

Since: Aug 07

Rings of Saturn Emporium

#422161 Nov 24, 2012
TJ Monk wrote:
<quoted text>
May I suggest that we make out? I am a good looking male .....if you look like your pic.....I would do you so well........
This is TJ Monk proving over and over that he is waassuuupp.

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