Since: May 11

Reality, USA

#422122 Nov 23, 2012
Just Results wrote:
<quoted text>
My day started off great yesterday....just like every day does. I'm not the one going to Hell.
It's YOU that starts and ends each day in misery and fear.
You are correct, no one is going to "hell". It is amusing how you and others still keep the fear alive...using the same tactics as have been used for centuries although now many look at the likes of you and laugh.

“BE BRAVE ENOUGH ”

Since: Oct 09

TO STEP IN MUD PUDDLES

#422123 Nov 23, 2012
love_spell wrote:
<quoted text>
wow! a son on thanksgiving! that's is definitely something to be happy about!
yes it is less expensive to eat out! after the gingerbread fest, we ate at cracker barrel [also did some shopping!] their thanksgiving dinner was 8.99
you got turkey or ham and three sides. extra sides were 1.25 and then your choice of pie. free cornbread and biscuits.
Yes...it was and still is something to be grateful for. Every year we celebrate his birthday on Thanksgiving. Last night we had his favorite dessert. On his actual birthday I am taking him out for sushi...I am not thrilled about that but that is what he picked.

I love love love Cracker Barrel...I almost always order their breakfast regardless of what time of day it is. I found the copy kat recipe for their hash brown casserole that I am going to try to make one day. It is my favorite!

“Live Love Laugh”

Since: Aug 07

Rings of Saturn Emporium

#422124 Nov 23, 2012
Resurrectionologist wrote:
<quoted text>
In response to your statement that I'm making it all up as I go along, don't I have the right to clarify my original intended argument? People misspeak all the time, and then back up to clarify. That's just intelligent conversation. It's expected that people will make mistakes in what they say. I'm not claiming perfection here. I wasn't specific enough, and now I'm correcting that. Are you saying that I can't or shouldn't now that you think you have me on the ropes? Sorry, but this is an open discussion. We all have the right to clarify our original intent.
Paul's letters weren't about detailing Jesus' miracles. Oral tradition of the time was already doing that. Paul wouldn't need to.
Paul's letters were instructions to the various early churches to unify them in a time when disunity would crush the growth of the church.
I am of the opinion that Matthew wrote his gospel first, and in Hebrew because he was a Jewish tax collector. I am also of the opinion that all 4 gospels plus Acts were written prior to the 70 A.D. destruction of Jerusalem. I have already gone into the reasons why I believe this. There are other reasons that I didn't go into, that I could, but will save for now. Do you want me to go over this again at a later date?
How could John be anti-Semitic in light of the fact that he was also a Jew? If anything, John was taking shots at the leaders who turned Jesus over to the Romans for execution. His comments wouldn't have been directed at ALL Jews.
You might want to think about who set up the churches to whom Paul wrote and then tell us why he never mentions anything...nothing...nada...ab out Jesus.

Paul teaches in direct opposition to Jesus in many places. I have heard all the apologetics that make it all better for those who wish to gloss over this fact. It doesn't change the fact that he puts himself at least on a level with Jesus, and at some points, even higher than Jesus.

“BE BRAVE ENOUGH ”

Since: Oct 09

TO STEP IN MUD PUDDLES

#422125 Nov 23, 2012
Just Results wrote:
<quoted text>
My day started off great yesterday....just like every day does. I'm not the one going to Hell.
It's YOU that starts and ends each day in misery and fear.
Thank you for sharing your faith with me. Always nice to see someone...living their faith.

“Live Love Laugh”

Since: Aug 07

Rings of Saturn Emporium

#422126 Nov 23, 2012
Resurrectionologist wrote:
<quoted text>
I can't take you seriously Kaitlin. Too many historians with much more training and education than either you or I say differently. Like it or not, Jesus existed. Saying he didn't is just lazy.
If you don't want to accept the deity of Jesus or any of the reported miracles, that's fine. Even though I disagree, I could respect that argument as it's debated often in much more scholarly discussion forums than this one.
Even early Jewish and Islamic literature don't deny that he existed as a person. Do you know the reason you deny the existence? I do.
If he existed, then that raises other questions that are just too much for your psyche to handle. It's easier to deny Jesus existed and then go find a book that agrees with you. I've read Archaya S. which is where you got your info. Have you read Lee Strobel's "The Case for the Real Jesus?" You see Kaitlin, I read the opposition. I bet you don't. It would challenge you too much.
I've seen your posts that claim we don't want anything to challenge our faith. It seems the opposite is true. Come back when you've read the Case for the Real Jesus and we'll talk. Until then, your argument (not you personally) deserves nothing but contempt and derision. In the interest of civility, I'll ignore your future myth arguments until you read an opposing book. If I can do it, so can you. Of course it will require an open mind. Kind of like a parachute. The human mind works best when open.
True historians do not make the claim that Jesus definitely existed. They are persuaded to think that he 'probably' existed and so am I. But there is not enough proof for a true historian to make the statement that it is a definite.

I have seen nowhere in Jewish literature where Jesus Christ was written about during his lifetime, which would be the kicker if you were looking to them as confirmation. Not a single line. Not a single little note on the itinerant rabbi who wreaked havoc with them to the degree that their priests had to go before the Sanhedrin to cure his malfeasance. Not a single record of his life exists anywhere but in the writings of the NT. No Roman records, now Jewish records, nothing. And even these were written decades after his death, not during his life. This is what true historians will tell you.

Yet, there is enough outside the writings of the Bible to suggest that this man Jesus lived. It's not overpowering, but it is there.

Islamic literature is useless, as they are just another branch of the Abrahamic faith, and came along decades after Jesus' death. They use the same source Christians as the base of their religion...the Jewish scriptures. They were exposed to Christianity and came up with...you got it...yet another God.

I do not hesitate to say that most of those reading your posts who have been Christians in the past do not see the open mind in you that you so quickly suggest others to keep. It goes both ways.

Everything anyone has said that challenges you with actual facts, you summarily dismissed while telling others to look up the word ethnocentrism or something that says you are right by belief and they are wrong by honest facts they have presented.

It isn't like you and I have not had this conversation in the past. While you haven't gone off the deep end in this conversation, I keep waiting for the other shoe to fall. There are many who will not even attempt a civil conversation with you about religion (or much else). So we are at a tentative peace only because you have thus far been civil, if somewhat arrogant.

You don't wish to talk with people who do not take part in your religion. You make no offer to have a 'human' conversation with them. That is because you are not here to do anything but promote your religious views and do not wish to have people say that your Jesus/God is a myth, even thought that is their belief and just as valid as yours.

Most here see that as a problem.

“Hello Darlings!”

Since: May 10

Location hidden

#422127 Nov 23, 2012
Kaitlin the Wolf Witch wrote:
"Minor details"--I love it!
Here's some "minor details" for you:
Witness # 1: "Resurrectionologist is a murderer! He killed his next-door neighbor after arguing religious doctrine by breaking into his house late one night, and shot him as he lay in bed."
Witness # 2: "I agree; Resurrectionologist killed his neighbor after fighting over his neighbor's dog crapping on his lawn all the time! So Resurrectionologist got his gun, broke into his neighbor's house one afternoon and shot him in his living room while he was watching "The Price is Right."
Witness # 3: "Resurrectionologist killed his neighbor one morning after he found out he was sleeping with his wife, and ran him down in the middle of the street with his Humvee!"
Witness # 4: "Resurrectionologist is a murderer! He loaned a chainsaw to his neighbor, it was never returned, and when the neighbor complained Resurrectionologist burned down his house, with his neighbor inside."
The "minor details" are not important; what's important is that these four "first-hand eyewitnesses" all agree in their testimonies that Resurrectionologist killed his neighbor.
Resurrectionologist is guilty; the "minor details" don't have any effect on core truths. He might wish they did, but they don't
Resurrectionologist wrote:
<quoted text>
Good imagination, but a pure straw-man fallacy.
It was inspired by Matthew, Mark, Luke and John.

“Live Love Laugh”

Since: Aug 07

Rings of Saturn Emporium

#422128 Nov 23, 2012
AnnieJ wrote:
<quoted text>
Thank you for sharing your faith with me. Always nice to see someone...living their faith.
LOL.*snark*

“Hello Darlings!”

Since: May 10

Location hidden

#422129 Nov 23, 2012
Kaitlin the Wolf Witch wrote:
<quoted text>
Your jesus never existed, and your buybull's "prophecies" are so vague and ambiguous as to be totally meaningless, yet easily *interpreted* as accurate after any given event. Not only do professional psychics work the same way, they undoubtedly got the idea for their scam from the buybull.
<quoted text>
And I don't take your cherry picked sources seriously.
You never did answer my quesiton: what does your god have to gain by punishing people for all eternity in the "lake of fire" for committing the thought crime of disbelief? What is there to be learned?
Resurrectionologist wrote:
<quoted text>
I have answered you a few times.[/QUTE]

No, you dodged and deflected.

[QUOTE who="Resurrectionologist "]<quoted text> I do not believe that God punishes people in the way that you're thinking.
Then you are in direct conflict with your "word of god."
Resurrectionologist wrote:
<quoted text> I believe that hell does exist, but not as a lake of fire that people physically burn in.
Then you disagree again with your buybull.
Resurrectionologist wrote:
<quoted text> I believe hell is a state of eternal consciousness separate from light and love and joy. Hell as I understand it is a place of darkness, loneliness, and regret, in which our spirit languishes forever.
That's not what your buybull says, though.
Resurrectionologist wrote:
<quoted text> It is not for the "crime of disbelief" as you say. The punishment is our own upon ourselves.
Revelations 21:8--"But for the cowardly and UNBELIEVING (emphasis added, just for you) and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."

This clearly shows that *disbelief is a thought crime.*
Resurrectionologist wrote:
<quoted text>What does God gain? God gains no joy by not allowing us into Heaven.
That does not tell us what he *does* gain by throwing people into the aforementioned lake of fire for the aforementioned thought crime of disbelief, as described in your bible.
Resurrectionologist wrote:
<quoted text> What He does gain are His creations who are willing to abide in peace and love with Him.
In other words, slavish and blind obedience. Thanks for clearing that up.

For a christian, you sure do contradict your "infallible word of God" a lot. Or are you prepared to concede the fact that the bible, like Captain Barbossa's Pirate's Code, "is more what you'd call guidelines" than the actual word of god?

You never answered *that* question, either.

Since: Oct 12

Location hidden

#422130 Nov 23, 2012
Kaitlin the Wolf Witch wrote:
Kaitlin the Wolf Witch wrote:
<quoted text>
Your jesus never existed, and your buybull's "prophecies" are so vague and ambiguous as to be totally meaningless, yet easily *interpreted* as accurate after any given event. Not only do professional psychics work the same way, they undoubtedly got the idea for their scam from the buybull.
<quoted text>
And I don't take your cherry picked sources seriously.
You never did answer my quesiton: what does your god have to gain by punishing people for all eternity in the "lake of fire" for committing the thought crime of disbelief? What is there to be learned?
<quoted text>
Then you are in direct conflict with your "word of god."
<quoted text>
Then you disagree again with your buybull.
<quoted text>
That's not what your buybull says, though.
<quoted text>
Revelations 21:8--"But for the cowardly and UNBELIEVING (emphasis added, just for you) and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."
This clearly shows that *disbelief is a thought crime.*
<quoted text>
That does not tell us what he *does* gain by throwing people into the aforementioned lake of fire for the aforementioned thought crime of disbelief, as described in your bible.
<quoted text>
In other words, slavish and blind obedience. Thanks for clearing that up.
For a christian, you sure do contradict your "infallible word of God" a lot. Or are you prepared to concede the fact that the bible, like Captain Barbossa's Pirate's Code, "is more what you'd call guidelines" than the actual word of god?
You never answered *that* question, either.
Jesus exsisted Freakshow. No other person EVER has affected our humanity.......just as it should be. Why not put your real picture on the page....I think you are an ugly......

Since: Sep 12

Location hidden

#422131 Nov 23, 2012
Kaitlin the Wolf Witch wrote:
Kaitlin the Wolf Witch wrote:
<quoted text>
Your jesus never existed, and your buybull's "prophecies" are so vague and ambiguous as to be totally meaningless, yet easily *interpreted* as accurate after any given event. Not only do professional psychics work the same way, they undoubtedly got the idea for their scam from the buybull.
<quoted text>
And I don't take your cherry picked sources seriously.
You never did answer my quesiton: what does your god have to gain by punishing people for all eternity in the "lake of fire" for committing the thought crime of disbelief? What is there to be learned?
<quoted text>
Then you are in direct conflict with your "word of god."
<quoted text>
Then you disagree again with your buybull.
<quoted text>
That's not what your buybull says, though.
<quoted text>
Revelations 21:8--"But for the cowardly and UNBELIEVING (emphasis added, just for you) and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."
This clearly shows that *disbelief is a thought crime.*
<quoted text>
That does not tell us what he *does* gain by throwing people into the aforementioned lake of fire for the aforementioned thought crime of disbelief, as described in your bible.
<quoted text>
In other words, slavish and blind obedience. Thanks for clearing that up.
For a christian, you sure do contradict your "infallible word of God" a lot. Or are you prepared to concede the fact that the bible, like Captain Barbossa's Pirate's Code, "is more what you'd call guidelines" than the actual word of god?
You never answered *that* question, either.
I can tell that you comprehend the bible in a literal manner. It's useless trying to explain it, because you don't want an explanation that is different from your presuppositions. Now if you want to talk about dogs or cats, I'm sure you will know more than I do. I know they have fur. Dogs bark, and cats meow. They eat. They poop. They play. Feel free to tell me all about them. I think that's why you take the bible literally. You're so used to reading charts where what it says is what it means, and that's fine for the medical profession. But that approach doesn't work with the Bible. I can admit that the bible can be a very difficult piece of literature to comprehend. Anyone who says they have it all figured out 100% is crazy, and that goes for me too. While many of you may think I'm arrogant, I can assure you that I'm really not. But for a layman who has never been enrolled in a theological seminary or other divinity school, I think I'm way above average in my knowledge.

To WN: I saw your comment about having a conversation and being civil. I can be quite civil. I get that you have your own views that you don't feel that I should be correcting. I'm okay with that. What else would you like to discuss? I'm entrenched in my views because of my experiences and research, not because I have a need to be right. I consider my standards to be realistic regarding the historical evidence for Jesus and Christianity. It's taken me years to reach this point in my personal quest for truth, and I'm not about to stop now. We are each entrenched, and neither is willing to concede or compromise our respective understandings of what we hold true. So would you care to tell me what your views are and why you hold them?

Since: Sep 12

Location hidden

#422132 Nov 23, 2012
water_nymph wrote:
<quoted text>True historians do not make the claim that Jesus definitely existed. They are persuaded to think that he 'probably' existed and so am I. But there is not enough proof for a true historian to make the statement that it is a definite.
I have seen nowhere in Jewish literature where Jesus Christ was written about during his lifetime, which would be the kicker if you were looking to them as confirmation. Not a single line. Not a single little note on the itinerant rabbi who wreaked havoc with them to the degree that their priests had to go before the Sanhedrin to cure his malfeasance. Not a single record of his life exists anywhere but in the writings of the NT. No Roman records, now Jewish records, nothing. And even these were written decades after his death, not during his life. This is what true historians will tell you.
Yet, there is enough outside the writings of the Bible to suggest that this man Jesus lived. It's not overpowering, but it is there.
Now this is a statement I can respect. Not because you agree he exists, but because you also look at the fact that while the evidence isn't 100% certain (an impossible standard in determining ancient history) you entertain that his existence is more likely than not.

Now with regard to contemporary accounts of Jesus written during His lifetime, I really do believe that it's at least plausible that one writer did record some of what Jesus said and did. Matthew, the tax collector. I do admit that it's speculation, but I don't need absolute conclusive "beyond-reasonable-doubt- Perry Mason-criminal-procedure-law " proof. I just need it to be more plausible than not. This is the way ancient history is evaluated with regard to what is available. It's realistic.

Consider the likelihood. A tax collector would be expected to keep notes in relation to his duties. Papyrus was readily available, and still is today in Egypt and other areas of the Middle East. A Jewish tax collector turned disciple would be more likely to record his experiences. Why? Because in that day and age, tax collectors were despised by nearly everybody. If it were me, I would want to write it all down because who would believe it later on if it remained just a few anecdotal stories told around a warming fire? Now I'm aware that this is a version of ethnocentrism too, but I try to avoid this as much as possible. I am speculating based upon what is known of tax collectors in Jewish society. At some point, we have to speculate because historical evidence becomes more elusive as time passes. Now you know what I think and how I reason this logically. I hope my tone here is civil enough for you.

“H-o-o-o-o-o-o-ld on thar!”

Since: Sep 08

The Borderland of Sol

#422133 Nov 23, 2012
Resurrectionologist wrote:
<quoted text>
The Wailing Wall isn't a "basement." It is the only part left of the platform that the temple was built upon. In some places this "platform" was 9 stories high. Have you been there to see it? The platform was built as an extension of the hill (called mountains by the Jews). You're trying to nitpick technical details to prove your point without sufficient personal knowledge of the subject, which I happen to have.
Would you disbelieve your doctor if he said that a growth on your kidney wasn't a part of your kidney or would you deny his personal knowledge of the subject?
Save up some $$, go to Jerusalem, and see for yourself. If you do go, avoid the Gaza Strip (for obvious reasons) and Salah ed-Din St.
Some streets in extreme orthodox areas are blocked off on weekends.
Security is tight. Expect to be searched. Dress moderately to avoid suspicion. Ein Kerem is a neat little neighborhood on the west side with good food and some interesting art studios and galleries. Try it sometime. You might be surprised at what you learn.
It's called the Western Wall, expert.

And unless the pictures lie, it consists of stones still standing one atop another.

Why is that, do you suppose?

“H-o-o-o-o-o-o-ld on thar!”

Since: Sep 08

The Borderland of Sol

#422134 Nov 23, 2012
water_nymph wrote:
<quoted text>WEll, he's leaving to put out imaginary fires on another Topix thread. I did not expect him to stay and answer to his own claim. But I am a little disappointed that he cut and ran.
I remain unsurprised.

What was that word again?

Buttinsky?

Interferenceist?

Oh, "Interventionist". That was it.

“H-o-o-o-o-o-o-ld on thar!”

Since: Sep 08

The Borderland of Sol

#422135 Nov 23, 2012
Tide with Beach wrote:
<quoted text>
Romans go home!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v =XbI-fDzUJXIXX
Romani ite domum!
*helpless laughter*

Since: Jul 09

Location hidden

#422136 Nov 23, 2012
G_O_D wrote:
<quoted text>
Hi Karl!
hi Guy

“Hello Darlings!”

Since: May 10

Location hidden

#422137 Nov 23, 2012
TJ Monk wrote:
<quoted text>
Jesus exsisted Freakshow.
No he didn't, coward viking. And there's nothing you can do about it.
TJ Monk wrote:
<quoted text> No other person EVER has affected our humanity.
History is filled with *REAL* people who have affected our humanity for the better.
TJ Monk wrote:
<quoted text> Why not put your real picture on the page....I think you are an ugly......
I defy you to prove that it *isn't* my real picture. I think you are an idiot; and I don't care what *you* think.

“Hello Darlings!”

Since: May 10

Location hidden

#422138 Nov 23, 2012
Resurrectionologist wrote:
<quoted text>
I can tell that you comprehend the bible in a literal manner.
Hey, it's *your* literal word of god, not mine. Unless you admit that it's more what you'd call guidelines, in which case you are in direct contradiction to the christian faith.

Resurrectionologist wrote:
<quoted text>It's useless trying to explain it, because you don't want an explanation
No, it's because you *can't* explain it.
Resurrectionologist wrote:
<quoted text> Now if you want to talk about dogs or cats, I'm sure you will know more than I do. I know they have fur. Dogs bark, and cats meow. They eat. They poop. They play. Feel free to tell me all about them. I think that's why you take the bible literally.
Do you, as a christian, take your bible as "god's infallible word?" A simple yes or no will do.
Resurrectionologist wrote:
<quoted text> You're so used to reading charts where what it says is what it means, and that's fine for the medical profession. But that approach doesn't work with the Bible. I can admit that the bible can be a very difficult piece of literature to comprehend.
I comprehend the English version well enough; it's crap.
Resurrectionologist wrote:
<quoted text> Anyone who says they have it all figured out 100% is crazy,
Then that includes me, Thomas Paine, and millions of other people. I'm in good company.
Resurrectionologist wrote:
<quoted text> .... While many of you may think I'm arrogant, I can assure you that I'm really not. But for a layman who has never been enrolled in a theological seminary or other divinity school, I think I'm way above average in my knowledge.
Yeah, you would. What else is new?

“ Ah see's lanlubbers Cap'n BT!”

Since: Oct 10

Location hidden

#422140 Nov 23, 2012
Resurrectionologist wrote:
<quoted text>
Good imagination, but a pure straw-man fallacy. In your analogy you're using the modern criminal procedure template in which the standard is beyond a reasonable doubt. With regard to history, the criteria aren't that high. It would be unreasonable and ridiculous to even attempt to hold history to such a high standard. I should know. I conduct historical research part time for a local historical society. Whether secular or religious, all reliable history must adhere to basic criteria. Now I'm sure you have some Biblical text in mind that you want to apply this analogy to. So what is it?
How about Mark 1:[9] And it came to pass in those days, that Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee, and was baptized of John in Jordan.

Nazareth of Galilee did not even exist at the time of jesus(proven by archeology). It didn't exist until after 100 AD-and not where the catholics said it did. It would have been impossible and totally inappropriate, as it was an area of burial.
There goes the credibility of the gospel...and it proves the fact that it was written after the cite was actually established, and the writer did not even realize it at the time it was written.

“ Ah see's lanlubbers Cap'n BT!”

Since: Oct 10

Location hidden

#422141 Nov 23, 2012
"archaeology"

“Thank you GOD for JESUS”

Since: Jul 07

And thank you JESUS for caring

#422142 Nov 24, 2012
Kaitlin the Wolf Witch wrote:
Kaitlin the Wolf Witch wrote:
<quoted text>
Your jesus never existed, and your buybull's "prophecies" are so vague and ambiguous as to be totally meaningless, yet easily *interpreted* as accurate after any given event. Not only do professional psychics work the same way, they undoubtedly got the idea for their scam from the buybull.
<quoted text>
And I don't take your cherry picked sources seriously.
You never did answer my quesiton: what does your god have to gain by punishing people for all eternity in the "lake of fire" for committing the thought crime of disbelief? What is there to be learned?
<quoted text>
Then you are in direct conflict with your "word of god."
<quoted text>
Then you disagree again with your buybull.
<quoted text>
That's not what your buybull says, though.
<quoted text>
Revelations 21:8--"But for the cowardly and UNBELIEVING (emphasis added, just for you) and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."
This clearly shows that *disbelief is a thought crime.*
<quoted text>
That does not tell us what he *does* gain by throwing people into the aforementioned lake of fire for the aforementioned thought crime of disbelief, as described in your bible.
<quoted text>
In other words, slavish and blind obedience. Thanks for clearing that up.
For a christian, you sure do contradict your "infallible word of God" a lot. Or are you prepared to concede the fact that the bible, like Captain Barbossa's Pirate's Code, "is more what you'd call guidelines" than the actual word of god?
You never answered *that* question, either.
Revelations 21:8--"But for the cowardly and UNBELIEVING (emphasis added, just for you) and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."

Second death WW, not the first death, which is the physical death! Why would all of the above in 21:8 end up in the same place as those who have an honorable intent? It is bad enough living with them here on earth, we surely don't need that for eternity. We each take with us that which we have earned.......

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