Mormon Church Enters Calif. Gay Marriage Fight

[Buckster]

Are there any gay Mormons? If so, do they want to legalize same sex polygamy?

[No Surprise]

blackbirdxx wrote:

<quoted text>
Well, that's a very good point...you could ask for a financial statement..everybody wants to know the stability of the place where you intend to invest
your very soul...
just don't try that at the mormon church..it's top secret information.
i don't think churches 'go out of business' very often
anyway...and a church building, up for foreclosure
doesn't even sound right...and while having your church actually 'go out of business' when you were a child must have been a truly devastating experience..you also stated that you lived in a small community, and those are very rare now days...
and even in the unlikely hood that your choice of church jumps in the dumpter..i guess it could be partly your fault for your 'less than enthusiastic contributions.
and anyway..whats the big deal about finding a new church? there are many of them around, and if you don't like the stories one tells, there is always next sunday

Now considering the following information I got from the lds.org site that you refer to as secret financial information. Take a slow, long look at the following information and consider how much in a single year it would cost a religion like this to keep itself afloat.
..........

Membership 13,508,509
Missions 348
Missionaries 52,494
Missionary Training Centers 16
Temples 128
Congregations 28,109
Universities & Colleges 4
Seminary Students Enrollment 361,993
Institute Students Enrollment 337,237
Family History Centers 4,584 more
Countries with Family History Centers 134
Countries Receiving Humanitarian Aid Since 1985 167
Humanitarian Cash Donations Since 1985 $282.3 million
Value of Humanitarian Material Assistance Since 1985 $833.6 million
Welfare Service Missionaries
(Including Humanitarian Service Missionaries) 6,470
Languages Church Materials Available 166

..........

Consider how much the electric, water and heating bills are for just a single year world wide! Now toss in building maintenance costs for a single year. Then toss in the cost for printing publications of anything church related for one year in 166 different languages.
..........
And Smurf thinks this church is going to crumble and become as the dust of the earth one day.
What Smurf fails to acknowledge is regardless of what you think of the Mormon religion, most active Mormons are as honest as they day they were born. Active honest people run that church and so many are involved in the finances that if a bad apple shows itself, someone quickly will note them and their dishonesty if they are stealing funds. That is why this church has never had a financial problem like other religions and corporations.
In order for this church to collapse, all the apostles and prophets and seventies would literally have to die all within the same moment so that the church would be such a leaderless mess that it would collapse upon itself. Then Smurf and others would have their happy day :)

[No Surprise]

Buckster wrote:

Are there any gay Mormons? If so, do they want to legalize same sex polygamy?

lol, that was funny ;p

There are gay Mormons. But it is up to them to be honest if they are as any one, committing any sin, that is against their gospel standards and either stop and refrain from the sin or to ask for an excommunication if they won't give up doing the sin.
That church does not push for polygamy to be legalized. If it is in the future, as now, members by the law of the land can choose one on one or plural marriage between men and women.
This church won't ever sanction gay relationships any more then it would sanction adultry between married heteros or sex before marriage.

[Anti-Socialist Esquire]

Grandpasmurf952 wrote:

blackbirdxx said "Well, that seems pretty minor compared to all the fallacies and contradictions that the mormon religion is based on. This new age we live in, where information, and it's sources, available to everyone, will be the downfall of the mormon church. "
While I agree with you I am still somewhat concerned how it will be handled. A lot of people have their whole lives invested in this church. Logically it is just a matter of time before it crumbles into the dust of history but right now we need to be aware of the simple fact that despite their arrogance and violent history this group is also a part of the human family. This sticky problem needs to be approached with love and compassion towards all of the victims of the Patriarchal Religious Military Industrial Complex
I have posted a text file here to help people extricate themselves and others from this horror here:
http://grandpasmurf9520.wordpress.com/2009/07...

Arrogance and Violent history? The Catholic Church has alot more of that than the Mormon Church does. What about the Crusades? In Europe, the Pope used to have a Hand in Ruling. Sometimes Over the King, And you guys are saying that the Mormon Church is Too Powerful.

[Anti-Socialist Esquire]

Buckster wrote:

Are there any gay Mormons? If so, do they want to legalize same sex polygamy?

Mormons don't believe in Homosexuality. This is just the same as the Catholic Church, or Baptists, or Methodists Etc.

[Anti-Socialist Esquire]

Anti-Socialist Esquire wrote:

You're saying that i'm not a Christian? hmmm, I think that The Mormon Church is "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints" That Sounds Christian to me. It seems that "Jesus Christ" is right there in the Name.
The Catholic Church Doesn't even have that. In Fact, i think they're preoccupied with Worshiping Mary. Mary was no more than the woman that Gave Birth to Jesus. Jesus was the Main Event. Roserys are nothing more than a Cheap Piece of Jewelry. A Prop. You don't need a Prop to pray. In Fact, i visited the Vatican City in 1991. I was in the Navy Stationed in Sardina Italy. I was in Rome for a Rock Concert and had some time. The Path to the Vatican is Lined with Shops Shamelessly Selling Roserys and Religious Trinkets. I'm not talking about one or two shops, there was a Full Mile of Shops on both sides selling nothing but catholic trinkets. Some even had a Service that would allow you to have that item blessed in the Vatican and Delivered to your Hotel room (For a Fee of Course). I'm not even Catholic and i was disgusted at the Commerialism of this Church. It's about worshiping God, not Profiting at his Expense. It's Ridiculous. Also, Confession isn't a Confession if it's only known between two people, it's Secret. You want to confess, Do so in Public. Confessing in secret is no more useful than holding that secret.
Alright, Let's say i'll concede the Candles to you, But the Vatican is Just one Catholic Location. Are all Catholic Locations Candle powered? How about the Water bill? The Toilets have to flush. Who Pays for all those Wafers you use? Who pays to feed the Pope and all the Cardinals? Do they Feast on Faith alone? What about those Wine Sales? Does the Catholic Church Sell Wine? I don't remember them ever having sold wine. Oh, wait, On the Way to the Vatican...... The Catholic Church just looks like a Big Marketing Scheme to me.
I guess you could say i'm a "Jack Mormon", But i am so by Choice, not by my Deeds. I could go back at any time and be welcomed with open arms.
Here's another one if you don't consider me a Christian. Or, Rather, Mormons. These are the Articles of Faith. All New Members of The Priesthood must memorize these.
http://www.lds.org/library/display/0,4945,106...

You don't have anything to say about this? Not going to defend this? How come Mormons have to defend themselves from attack, but when i try the same approach on Catholics, you conveniently Ignore it? You must not dispute my Comments. If that's the case, you have no ground to stand on against Mormons.

[blackbirdxx]

Grandpasmurf952 wrote:

blackbirdxx said "Well, that seems pretty minor compared to all the fallacies and contradictions that the mormon religion is based on. This new age we live in, where information, and it's sources, available to everyone, will be the downfall of the mormon church. "
While I agree with you I am still somewhat concerned how it will be handled. A lot of people have their whole lives invested in this church. Logically it is just a matter of time before it crumbles into the dust of history but right now we need to be aware of the simple fact that despite their arrogance and violent history this group is also a part of the human family. This sticky problem needs to be approached with love and compassion towards all of the victims of the Patriarchal Religious Military Industrial Complex
I have posted a text file here to help people extricate themselves and others from this horror here:
http://grandpasmurf9520.wordpress.com/2009/07...

i read your post, and your text file, and while i am beginning to get my head around the concept, it will
be a difficult 'sell' to most people because it is pretty complicated.
i tend to try to keep things simple and logical..
try some of this and see what you think.
My definition of what a 'few' of the more prosperous religions have evolved into
A group of people who believe they are the only ones who know the real truth, and someday
all the rest of us will wake up from the religious stupor that has been our lives, and see your little piece of reality as the one and only 'real thing'.
I think religion is a bunch of people, running around with a hole in their head...looking for something, anything, to plug the hole with. And some people are so desperate to plug that hole, they will plug it with anything..
I am kinda surprised there aren't religions called 'hand' or 'finger' around..:)
And i think maybe i did have my own hole long ago.
Only it wasn't all that big, so i was not that desperate to plug it...And somewhere along the way
the hole repaired itself,
And what filled the hole was COMMON SENSE, supported by LOGIC..
l probl'if i cannot see it, or feel it with my hand, smell it, or hear it..it is not real'.
And while i do not believe in a God or an afterlife,
i do believe in many of the teaching that many of the religions have adopted.'
The difference between right and wrong, honesty and respect for ourselves and for those around us, and i have lived my life in that manner, and i am happy and, and
have 'No Regrets". And somewhere in there, the copy of the catholic ten commandments, that my mother hand stitched about 50 years ago,
and has been hanging on the wall ever since, seems to fit my needs...with a little creative interpretation to the references of God.
And in the event that i have totally blown it,and there really is a God, and there is some kind of afterlife..What happens to me?
I end up where all the rest of the people go who are just like me...i am happy now...and i get eternal happiness.
(that would depend on, if there really was a god, he he would be just enough, to segregate the simple non-believers from the
truly evil people that are part of every society)
The lack of logic involved with (that) religion

[blackbirdxx]

part 2...

begins with:
PAY MONEY
pay money..for what? if there is a god, he has no use for money.
pay money to buy your way to place you have never been..and only faith is the basis for its existence
(faith can only exist with the absolute lack of fact)
pay money to support a church? a basic church simple relays written information from a book that anyone can buy.
pay money "to spread the word"? the largest source of information ever available to mankind is everywhere,
and there seems to be definite lack of online sermons
pay money..(one church in particular) to promote prosperity..but it ends up being wealth and power and the ability to control that comes with it.
i.e. the control of an entire state.
And ends with:
any particular group of people, who think their beliefs are the one and only real truths, and that all those who have different beliefs, are wrong, and will pay for it with an eternity in the fires in hell.......need to be avoided like the plague
right up to and including that group of 12 million religious fanatics that state, in no uncertain terms, "that all other beliefs
are an abomination.."
so that means that out of everybody who has ever lived and died...these 12 million people are tho only ones who have chosen the correct path?
And i while believe disrespecting the personal beliefs of another is wrong......when people use their beliefs as a basis for wealth, power and control
over all those who do not want membership in their
..pick one
club
gang
organization
political party
cult
group of fanatics
congregation of religious zealots
largest financial scam of all time
all hiding under the banner of 'tax exempt non profit church"
Something needs to be done about it. It has taken them a little over 30 years to take control of an entire state and they are buying property everywhere.
and with more than 5 billion tax free dollars of disposable income last year alone, that they do not even have to
admit they received..and our justice does not seem to want to even challenge them..it's just another out of control problem

[blackbirdxx]

No Surprise wrote:

<quoted text>
Now considering the following information I got from the lds.org site that you refer to as secret financial information. Take a slow, long look at the following information and consider how much in a single year it would cost a religion like this to keep itself afloat.
..........
Membership 13,508,509
Missions 348
Missionaries 52,494
Missionary Training Centers 16
Temples 128
Congregations 28,109
Universities & Colleges 4
Seminary Students Enrollment 361,993
Institute Students Enrollment 337,237
Family History Centers 4,584 more
Countries with Family History Centers 134
Countries Receiving Humanitarian Aid Since 1985 167
Humanitarian Cash Donations Since 1985 $282.3 million
Value of Humanitarian Material Assistance Since 1985 $833.6 million
Welfare Service Missionaries
(Including Humanitarian Service Missionaries) 6,470
Languages Church Materials Available 166
..........
Consider how much the electric, water and heating bills are for just a single year world wide! Now toss in building maintenance costs for a single year. Then toss in the cost for printing publications of anything church related for one year in 166 different languages.
..........
And Smurf thinks this church is going to crumble and become as the dust of the earth one day.
What Smurf fails to acknowledge is regardless of what you think of the Mormon religion, most active Mormons are as honest as they day they were born. Active honest people run that church and so many are involved in the finances that if a bad apple shows itself, someone quickly will note them and their dishonesty if they are stealing funds. That is why this church has never had a financial problem like other religions and corporations.
In order for this church to collapse, all the apostles and prophets and seventies would literally have to die all within the same moment so that the church would be such a leaderless mess that it would collapse upon itself. Then Smurf and others would have their happy day :)

Well..you just shot your foot off...with your own numbers...

the first one..as your numbers...about 1.1 billion
output for humanitarian aid to foreign countries,
SINCE 1985!!!
And all them numbers...seems to have missed the important one..THE SECRET ONE...TOTAL NET INCOME
FROM ONE YEAR..ANY YEAR
I GUESS THAT 5 BILLION FROM LAST YEAR GOT LOST IN THE PAPER SHUFFLE...

And most of the other expenditures are little more than self imposed overhead and that advertising/recruitment thing...rather an inefficient way to run a business..but then,they have money to burn.

[No Surprise]

blackbirdxx wrote:

part 2...
begins with:
PAY MONEY
pay money..for what? if there is a god, he has no use for money.
pay money to buy your way to place you have never been..and only faith is the basis for its existence
(faith can only exist with the absolute lack of fact)
pay money to support a church? a basic church simple relays written information from a book that anyone can buy.
pay money "to spread the word"? the largest source of information ever available to mankind is everywhere,
and there seems to be definite lack of online sermons
pay money..(one church in particular) to promote prosperity..but it ends up being wealth and power and the ability to control that comes with it.
i.e. the control of an entire state.
And ends with:
any particular group of people, who think their beliefs are the one and only real truths, and that all those who have different beliefs, are wrong, and will pay for it with an eternity in the fires in hell.......need to be avoided like the plague
right up to and including that group of 12 million religious fanatics that state, in no uncertain terms, "that all other beliefs
are an abomination.."
so that means that out of everybody who has ever lived and died...these 12 million people are tho only ones who have chosen the correct path?
And i while believe disrespecting the personal beliefs of another is wrong......when people use their beliefs as a basis for wealth, power and control
over all those who do not want membership in their
..pick one
club
gang
organization
political party
cult
group of fanatics
congregation of religious zealots
largest financial scam of all time
all hiding under the banner of 'tax exempt non profit church"
Something needs to be done about it. It has taken them a little over 30 years to take control of an entire state and they are buying property everywhere.
and with more than 5 billion tax free dollars of disposable income last year alone, that they do not even have to
admit they received..and our justice does not seem to want to even challenge them..it's just another out of control problem

I know you were attempting to be honest and forth right in the above but it also came out quite funny seeing how you corral a single religion like they are the only religion on earth that thinks they are the "one true religion". We have over 10,000 different named Christian religions alone (not to include non-Christian religions with the same ideology that they are the "one true religion") that exist this very day and each and every one thinks they are the "one true religion".
You speak of a religion that rules a state and you forget one that literally rules countries. Your comparisons are a bit weak but I understand them :)

[blackbirdxx]

No Surprise:

POOOF!I guess you missed a bit of the point....
Yep...there are religions everywhere...all kinds....
But, there is only one 'religion' that pays no taxes,
has an annual income high enough to place them on the Fortune 500 list, refuses to justify their own existence with a profit/loss statement.

It has grown to the point that the term religion,
is little more than a label they hide behind in their quest for more power and control.
This is the UNITED STATES of AMERICA....and the federal government is allowing a single business
entity calling itself a church to control an entire
state. And they are reaching out to other states to.

Between the church and it's members, they threw down
over 2 million dollars out of pocket to influence the voters on prop 8 in ca....does that sound like any of the principals that our government was based on?

Or does it sound more like a business, with religious beliefs, using money as a tool, in an effort to control the laws in another state?

[blackbirdxx]

Anti-Socialist Esquire wrote:

<quoted text>
Arrogance and Violent history? The Catholic Church has alot more of that than the Mormon Church does. What about the Crusades? In Europe, the Pope used to have a Hand in Ruling. Sometimes Over the King, And you guys are saying that the Mormon Church is Too Powerful.

AS A MATTER OF FACT, YES....
you use history as a justification for present day events....that makes no sense..history cannot be changed, but it can be learned from in an effort to avoid mistakes...The mormon church does have to much power...and that power was gained using religion as a guise to hide their true intentions...

[No Surprise]

blackbirdxx wrote:

No Surprise:
POOOF!I guess you missed a bit of the point....
Yep...there are religions everywhere...all kinds....
But, there is only one 'religion' that pays no taxes,
has an annual income high enough to place them on the Fortune 500 list, refuses to justify their own existence with a profit/loss statement.
It has grown to the point that the term religion,
is little more than a label they hide behind in their quest for more power and control.
This is the UNITED STATES of AMERICA....and the federal government is allowing a single business
entity calling itself a church to control an entire
state. And they are reaching out to other states to.
Between the church and it's members, they threw down
over 2 million dollars out of pocket to influence the voters on prop 8 in ca....does that sound like any of the principals that our government was based on?
Or does it sound more like a business, with religious beliefs, using money as a tool, in an effort to control the laws in another state?

"But, there is only one 'religion' that pays no taxes,..."

Only one? So the Catholic church, the various Methodist, Baptist, Episcopalian etc., and non-Christian religions in America like the Buddists and Muslims and various Asian religions here in America, they all pay taxes? You are the one that stated only a single religion in America does not pay taxes which you didn't say it but you were referencing the Mormon church.
That is new news to me. So of what you claim, there is only one true tax exempt religion in America and that is the Mormon church.... interesting news no matter how incorrect you are :)

"...refuses to justify their own existence with a profit/loss statement."

That's a curious statement. Why do you feel they should they have to "justify" their finances? Anyone with any talent of mathmatics can figure out what they do with a good portion of their money in just yearly expenditures from the information they on their web site just concerning all they take care of that is church property. Then toss in the donation factor. Then for each chapel world wide, toss in on average a $100. dollars worth of groceries to about 30 people for each chapel from their welfare system that is for struggling members.
..........
Your problem is like many. You pick at what they have but you purposefully blind yourself to what they pay out for many, many costs each single year on a world wide basis. And then you don't really wonder what those investments go back into. You wish to believe like others that all the Mormon church does is make $ but it never spends any $.

[Grandpasmurf952]

Blackbirdxx said "i read your post, and your text file, and while i am beginning to get my head around the concept, it will
be a difficult 'sell' to most people because it is pretty complicated.
i tend to try to keep things simple and logical.."

Well, like I tried to convey in the text file each point that I introduce in the text should be meditated on and verified. The concept is simple visually. To meditate on what is and slowly watch it unfold in front of you for a number of years is what I have done to come up with what little I have found so far. Like I say in the title it's an unfolding revelation. The important thing to recognize is that it is something anyone can contribute to. This effects all of us and it isn't really a religion so much as it is an approach of inquiry into the nature of ultimate reality. I have so far confirmed for myself the existence of a foundation of consciousness. I call it LOVE. Some may have the same experience and decide another word might be more appropriate. I'm looking at the beginning of a new level of consciousness that humanity is transitioning into. Everything is new yet still the same :)

[No Surprise]

Grandpasmurf952 wrote:

blackbirdxx said "Well, that seems pretty minor compared to all the fallacies and contradictions that the mormon religion is based on. This new age we live in, where information, and it's sources, available to everyone, will be the downfall of the mormon church. "
While I agree with you I am still somewhat concerned how it will be handled. A lot of people have their whole lives invested in this church. Logically it is just a matter of time before it crumbles into the dust of history but right now we need to be aware of the simple fact that despite their arrogance and violent history this group is also a part of the human family. This sticky problem needs to be approached with love and compassion towards all of the victims of the Patriarchal Religious Military Industrial Complex
I have posted a text file here to help people extricate themselves and others from this horror here:
http://grandpasmurf9520.wordpress.com/2009/07...

I am glad you are coming together on your new found religious thinking.

I am curious....you stated...."Dismantling the Antichrist is a relatively simple process once one recognizes the basic foundation of our existence. Once you recognize the true nature of your relationship with all that exists you simply are no longer a part of the Antichrist! The Antichrist being the Patriarchal Religious Military Industrial Complex that currently is permeated throughout our culture."....but you don't realize that you are telling EVERY reader that they are part of the Antichrist. Did you know that? That DOES mean you have pre-judged all humans except for you to have errors in their present thoughts of religion unless they release themselves from the Antichrist you state they belong to in their present thinking patterns.

Maybe you might have a better effect on people if you just encourage them to consider a new and different way of thinking about God instead of the traditional ways? It might help if you don't state they are sons and daughters of the Antichrist unless they believe as you :)

[blackbirdxx]

Anti-Socialist Esquire wrote:

<quoted text>
If you don't like it. Move out of Utah. Simple.

I guess your reading/comprehension skills are a bit lacking... not only does the last line of my post
indicate that i moved to l.h.c., the city indicated below my avatar also says it

[blackbirdxx]

blackbirdxx wrote:

<quoted text>
I guess your reading/comprehension skills are a bit lacking... not only does the last line of my post
indicate that i moved to l.h.c., the city indicated below my avatar also says it

alright.....what kind of freekin dummmy voted clueless, nuts, and disagree on an obvious fact.....probably was that Anti-Socialist Esquire guy....he seems a little 'out of balance'

[Anti-Socialist Esquire]

blackbirdxx wrote:

<quoted text>
AS A MATTER OF FACT, YES....
you use history as a justification for present day events....that makes no sense..history cannot be changed, but it can be learned from in an effort to avoid mistakes...The mormon church does have to much power...and that power was gained using religion as a guise to hide their true intentions...

JUST LIKE the Catholic Church has done and continues to do.

[Anti-Socialist Esquire]

blackbirdxx wrote:

<quoted text>
I guess your reading/comprehension skills are a bit lacking... not only does the last line of my post
indicate that i moved to l.h.c., the city indicated below my avatar also says it

I agree, i was hasty in that post and i was wrong about where you live. Granted.

[Anti-Socialist Esquire]

blackbirdxx wrote:

<quoted text>
alright.....what kind of freekin dummmy voted clueless, nuts, and disagree on an obvious fact.....probably was that Anti-Socialist Esquire guy....he seems a little 'out of balance'

Nope, wasn't me. You got me cold on that one. There would be no reason for me to judge that one wrong because you were right. You might as well record this. I Admitted it when i was wrong.