Prove there's a god.

Since: Jun 14

Location hidden

#759407 Jul 18, 2014
Hidingfromyou wrote:
<quoted text>
You're writing to a man - a lawyer - who travels the world to uphold the rights of the poor and disenfranchised.
It was lawyers who pushed abolition through the English system, and lawyers who ended slavery for tens of thousands of people.
I haven't seen him here in these parts..

“Why does my ignorance”

Since: Mar 11

justify your deity?

#759408 Jul 18, 2014
Lab28 wrote:
You're joking right?
No, I wasn't joking.
You really don't understand that you just said everyone is wrong but us.
I didn't make that claim.
My point is that the argument of "there are so many religions out there how are you sure yours is right?" Comes with the implication that they are all wrong, or as you put it "subjective realities."
No human has access to universal truth. No human is perfectly objective. All human realities are subjective. All worldviews are subjectively experienced and lived.

Mine is, yours is, everyone's is.
Which is self-refuting because at the same time you are saying "I have recognized them all as being subjective realities, therefore I'm right."
That isn't self-refuting. It's the only possible conclusion. The only other conclusion is that one worldview is correct and everyone else is wrong. That's just silly, childish, naive, infantile, arrogant and ethnocentric, and exactly as you believers would have it.

I don't think I can heap greater scorn on people who "know" they have ultimate truth via their religion. I can try, if you like.
Even better than that, you are seeing the truth. The ultimate wisdom! You are above the fray on this one!
No, I'm trapped in subjective reality as equal as you are. Unlike you, I recognize that all people have subjectively real experiences. When you walk outside, you are living in a Created world. You look at trees, you know they are Created, part of a plan. I never experience that reality. I walk outside and see evolution and math.

If you cannot understand that, you cannot understand other people and peoples. Cultural relativity and empathy are the beginnings of maturity.
Hence, my belief is right, all others are wrong.
It's more nuanced than that - the hypothesis that human brains are encultured, that we learn how to perceive reality through the social, has an enormous amount of evidence supporting it built up over the decades. Investigation into other cultures began, like so many disciplines, in total ignorance and arrogance and has taken decades, if not a century, to get over that while you remain mired in it because, at the heart of the matter, you do not have an evidence based belief system.
That's exactly what you're saying while at the same time asking me: "with so many religions out there, how can you be so sure yours is right?"
How can you be sure yours is the right one?

I know you will never attempt to answer that question - it's too mature of a question for you.
Do you really want my answer on why my "subjective reality" is the true one? I really don't want to give it now that you've basically told me you see anything having to do with the supernatural as primal. It obviously won't do me or you any good.
See? Maturity in human cognition is at the very heart of this discussion and your religion has walled that off from you. You only accept a position where your subjective reality is mistaken for objective reality so that you can ride that high horse and know all other religions are silly.

Let me end with reinforcing that your personal experiences are deeply meaningful to you. My position does not demean them or you for having them.They are the foundation of your lived reality. No less so believers of other religions. No less.
Lab28

Anaheim, CA

#759409 Jul 18, 2014
Hidingfromyou wrote:
<quoted text>
Oh, I know religion is good for some people, sure. I've often talked about people I know benefited from finding Christianity. Although I also see where Christianity is damaging to people.
Religions should not be supported by the state - history has demonstrated this over and over. State supported religions are destructive to the discovery and exploration of new knowledge and technology, dangerous to minority groups, and potentially harmful on the world stage.
To address your concerns, that religion is like mental health: sure, ok. Mental health clinics are taxed.
Not really sure about that, I believe counties actually fund mental health programs and then some rely on donations. I don't know where there is any room for profit in that field aside from private practices. At least that's how it works here in California.

So the county should fund churches right!

Since: Jun 14

Location hidden

#759410 Jul 18, 2014
Catcher1 wrote:
<quoted text>
Hahaha
You're the guy who offers somebody a warm embrace while holding a dagger behind his back.
I rescind my earlier legal advice.
They will take your passport, handcuff you, humiliate you in front of your fellow cruisers, and take you away to a Federal holding facility pending review of your case and arraignment.
If you need a lawyer, Catcher's motto is, HAVE LICENSE, WILL TRAVEL.
I am that guy that goes to find justice and that's what i find, Just Us!
you're speaking language I can understand with the handcuffs, and shyt, that is something I do know about.
I was curious about the cruise thang, I've never taken one and the bounty should be good this fall so I been thinking why the hell not.
I gotta get away for a while dude...

“Why does my ignorance”

Since: Mar 11

justify your deity?

#759411 Jul 18, 2014
Lab28 wrote:
<quoted text>
Not really sure about that, I believe counties actually fund mental health programs and then some rely on donations. I don't know where there is any room for profit in that field aside from private practices. At least that's how it works here in California.
So the county should fund churches right!
I don't know a lot about American law, to be honest. Until Regan, you guys had free mental institutions for the mentally disturbed, but he ended those (and thereby increased your homeless population).

In Japan, it took a loooooooooooong time, but mental illness is now simply part of the national healthcare, which means users pay 70%. I'm not sure how the state treats destitute seriously ill patients - like, incompetent to survive on their own. I shall have to find out. Pretty sure all the other G8 countries have free mental institutions for those who need them, although Canada may have followed the (poor) US example.

I'd be happy if religions, rather than focused on expanding their flock, simply focused on helping people's problems. The problem with religion doing so, though, is that they tend to use their ideas of what works, which may not be based in empirical evidence and could therefore be unhealthy and dangerous - or just rejected.

For example, in Japan, AA isn't very successful. Japanese men are not usually comfortable with the "higher power" stuff that is part of the 12 step doctrine. It works in a culture with that kind of background, but not here so well. We have about a 1-2% Christian population. There are some Buddhist sects moving toward the "Buddha has a plan for you" kind of Christian-theme, but most in Japan depict an aloof figure who really has nothing to do with your life. Shinto deities have greater effect on people's lives, but they're not conceived of as "higher powers." Just little deities that live around the country and in your house.

“Is that all you've got?”

Since: Jun 10

Location hidden

#759412 Jul 18, 2014
dirty white boy- wrote:
<quoted text> America is over run now with Illegal Immigrants, where does America draw the line River?
They're people here now, U.S.A. citizens and Military Vet's that need help, but can't get it..
Them childrens parents send them running to and across the boarder knowing ( thinking ) America will not turn them away.
That BS needs to stop period..
It's NOT Americas Job to raise their children, theirs plenty American children that need help and can't get it..
It's called "emotional blackmail", sending these "supposed" innocent children here and labeling themselves as "refugees". It's BS in its most extreme form. The newscasters call them refugees from "abject" poverty, but if you really eye them you will see that most are overweight and none are showing signs of being mal -or under-nourished like Somalian natives. Some of these so-called "innocents" have admitted to participating in torture and murder in their homeland. Not the kind of kids I want sitting next to mine in school. These kids are taught from birth to harden their hearts against whoever mom and pop tell them to. That would be "us", their reluctant hosts.

“Why does my ignorance”

Since: Mar 11

justify your deity?

#759413 Jul 18, 2014
Ok, as Catcher would say, "off to the gym." Except for me, it's off to the shower, then the 100 yen store to get beer bottling supplies and tape, then housework, then bottling beer while drinking beer and picking up a friend - fellow anthropologist is visiting - and have interesting discussions while making fun of ... no, not theists, but other anthropologists.

Seeeeee youuuuuuuuuu

“Is that all you've got?”

Since: Jun 10

Location hidden

#759414 Jul 18, 2014
dirty white boy- wrote:
S.O.A.Bytch!!
I fix the best sausage, biscuits and eggs!!
Dammit Man!
And gravy?
Lab28

Anaheim, CA

#759415 Jul 18, 2014
Hidingfromyou wrote:
<quoted text>
Ok, I give up. I'm going to argue the point that you think I am arguing so that you can see the difference in my wording. Ok? Ready? Please keep in mind, this is NOT the argument I am making but the argument you tell me I am making:
Atheists are logical and have the only objective position. Atheists know, because science shows us directly, what you are unable to know b/c of the blinders from religion. We have direct access to reality as it is. Our brains cease to function like human brains and plug directly into the universe, giving us special knowledge that no one else but atheists can acquire.
Sure, how do I know my religion is right where others are wrong. There are a bunch of key arguments for evidence of Christianity. Note I didn't say religion, I said Christianity. These are personal to me. I could reference a book I read about it, but I'm going to tell you the things that make me believe the things I do.

One is nifty little prophecies, you're going to laugh at this but one of the biggest things to convince me is actually in Genesis 16.
“You are now pregnant
and you will give birth to a son.
You shall name him Ishmael,[a]
for the Lord has heard of your misery.
12 He will be a wild donkey of a man;
his hand will be against everyone
and everyone’s hand against him,
and he will live in hostility
toward[b] all his brothers.”

Ishmael is the grandaddy of Islam, while Isaac is with Judaism. It's funny that the word brother is plural right? What other brother could the angel of the Lord possibly be referring to? Keep in mind also this is the OT and this stuff was being passed down way before Mohammed was even born.

Another one, well the poor! Jesus said the poor will always be among us. And Christianity is still the number one go to religion of the poor.

I asked you how poverty disproves God because being around poverty for as long as I have has revealed many things about the character of God to me. The most glaring thing being that Christ sets people free regardless of circumstance. That's another reason I believe.

I wish you would watch that documentary. It's secular, it isn't about religion. But the many practices that boost your happiness index are things that good church going folk do anyways, long before neuroscience.

The biggest most glaring thing is consistent philosophy. I am holy and blameless in the sight of God but not for anything I've done. This ought to make me confidently humble.(Most of the time it makes me arrogant, but whatever.) And in light of this how could I not want to give up the fancy fleeting things that this world has to offer that will end up failing me anyways in pursuit of something beautiful and eternal.

Don't think for a second that I don't know that this isn't foolish and passionate. Without reason or comprehension, blind faith walking ridiculousness. But it is more true than any "subjective reality."

For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.-1 Corinthians 1:18

Since: Oct 10

Location hidden

#759416 Jul 18, 2014
Catcher1 wrote:
<quoted text>
Well, you're special, River.
But what I think he means is that discretion is the better part of valor.
Or, as Dave would say, or something like that.
BTW, this is the first time I've seen him referred to as Carlos.
"Avoiding danger is no safer in the long run than outright exposure. The fearful are caught as often as the bold." ~ Helen Keller

Since: Sep 10

Long Beach, CA

#759417 Jul 18, 2014
Hidingfromyou wrote:
Ok, as Catcher would say, "off to the gym." Except for me, it's off to the shower, then the 100 yen store to get beer bottling supplies and tape, then housework, then bottling beer while drinking beer and picking up a friend - fellow anthropologist is visiting - and have interesting discussions while making fun of ... no, not theists, but other anthropologists.
Seeeeee youuuuuuuuuu
Seeeeee youuuuuuuuuu too!

Channel your energy!!!!!!

Since: Jun 14

Location hidden

#759418 Jul 18, 2014
nanoanomaly wrote:
<quoted text>And gravy?
I fix the best :)

Since: Sep 10

Long Beach, CA

#759419 Jul 18, 2014
nanoanomaly wrote:
<quoted text>And gravy?
I say yes.

Since: Jun 14

Location hidden

#759420 Jul 18, 2014
Hidingfromyou wrote:
Ok, as Catcher would say, "off to the gym." Except for me, it's off to the shower, then the 100 yen store to get beer bottling supplies and tape, then housework, then bottling beer while drinking beer and picking up a friend - fellow anthropologist is visiting - and have interesting discussions while making fun of ... no, not theists, but other anthropologists.
Seeeeee youuuuuuuuuu
You bottle beer?
Anon

Lakewood, OH

#759421 Jul 18, 2014
River Tam wrote:
<quoted text>
I must disagree with Carlos. I fear nothing and I don't think I'm a complete idiot.
You're encircled by a gang of Hell's Angels, each twirling a chain. No fear?

“Is that all you've got?”

Since: Jun 10

Location hidden

#759422 Jul 18, 2014
Hidingfromyou wrote:
<quoted text>
Thank you for correcting me on your minimum standards for what would constitute a deity. Your position is reasonable.
I'm sure you will pardon me if I do not find such creatures likely - and, I will continue to take the more extreme view that such things simply don't exist and cannot exist, based on what we know of humans.
I know that my views are not supportable from a "prove/disprove" point of view - and your position is tenable - but I believe all evidence about human evolution, cognition and experience strongly suggest that such things are impossible. Ergo, parsimony, no deities.
Well, I suspect that anybody that could create this type of hologram...

http://www.nature.com/news/simulations-back-u...

...would be considered a god for all intents and purposes. God's "substance" (exotic matter), could be as different from our own as you are from lightning.

Funny, but the "mama's got a squeeze box" tune is romping through my mind now. Those darn, dirty oscillators!

Since: Jun 14

Location hidden

#759423 Jul 18, 2014

“Is that all you've got?”

Since: Jun 10

Location hidden

#759424 Jul 18, 2014
It aint necessarily so wrote:
<quoted text>
<quoted text>
Gods don't merely travel between universes. They create them. If no such creatures exist, then there are no gods.
Do tell.

http://www.nature.com/news/simulations-back-u...

A reasonable person does not expect God to live inside the petri dish with them.

“Darwin was right..of course.”

Since: Jun 11

Evolution is true.....

#759425 Jul 18, 2014
Hidingfromyou wrote:
<quoted text>
Try as I might, I cannot give you the sum of my investigations into humanity via the disciplines of psych (evo, neuro), anth (bio, evo, cultural), biology and history. Given that I'm basing my position on the findings in social science, science and history, I think it's fair to say my position is an intellectual one.
And I am being completely honest when I write "there are no deities." It is precisely as if I am writing "I do not believe in deities" because I, with all my heart and understanding, believe that there are no deities. I am not being dishonest here, covering up my secret beliefs or lying - the above is what I think or what I "know."
I further believe that our science and social science demonstrate beyond any doubt that deities are all human inventions.
Just the cross-cultural evidence alone is compelling enough to conclude that. Hence, not a single believer here has ever been able to answer the "why your deity and not anyone else's" problem, and the "other believers of other religions "know" just as much as you do that their religion is true" and the, perhaps more damning reality that some cultures do not have deities (most South American ones, and many hunter-gatherers) and some do not even have sorcery or spirits, and some do not accept an afterlife.
Clearly, your religion - like any and all religions - are not human universals. The concepts you accept as normal and natural are foreign to many peoples.
And the whole Satan thing is silly and infantile. I don't know why I see that as worse than belief in your main deity. After all they amount to the same thing, but it just seems sillier.
Great post....thanks

“Is that all you've got?”

Since: Jun 10

Location hidden

#759426 Jul 18, 2014
waaasssuuup wrote:
<quoted text>
hell and her associates are both litterally and figuratively under the sole of a believers foot;-)
Lulu has been reading too many silly novels. "Forged in hell"....that's funny.

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