Prove there's a god.

Since: Jun 12

Location hidden

#758553 Jul 16, 2014
scaritual wrote:
<quoted text>
Works form me and others. maybe your comp needs "some prayin".
This is your post 758145
I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say that whatever you want to call it, a death in that era most often and likely occurred from a premature birth, early birth, etc... et al.

Especially due to a woman being caught in the middle of a fight and being hit, slammed, kicked or whatever the physical impact was to cause a birth to happen before a full term.

Okay, and, I'm also gonna go out on a limb and say that when the event begins, it could have been in the street, a field, a road side.

I'd say the circumstance of that happening in the home or close to a midwife's residence and such was pretty rare, too.

Couple that with the fact that numerous translations use the exact term, "miscarriage", and in the Targumim the word following the words/terms for "to produce" - "fetus" - "and also" - "to come to pass"...

Is >> "death" http://i1246.photobucket.com/al

Then it's really difficult to imagine anything else was meant.

I cut that pic down so it would hopefully fit your screen. Maybe it will.
It explains nothing. You have a specific Hebrew word for dead fetus. The Hebrew language has a term (shachol) that denotes an abortion, or miscarriage (see 2 Kgs. 2:21; Hos. 9:14), yet that word is not used in Exod. 21:22.
KENTUCKY

Louisville, KY

#758554 Jul 16, 2014
Thx and I didn't have restful evening with a sick child. No biggie and yes he alright, thx for askin.:)

Corruption and evil acts happen in every organization, business, church, government, association, etc. since the beginning of time. It will ultimately be up to the good people of such entity's to set them straight. well.......I hope anyway.
Al Garcia wrote:
<quoted text>
I don't hate Catholics. I just have a very great and grave concern about those in charge and what they're allowing to be happening to their followers.
Good night KENTUCKY
Have a restful evening!
KENTUCKY

Louisville, KY

#758555 Jul 16, 2014
Thx and ..... O.K., peace brother
Lab28 wrote:
<quoted text>
God bless the catholics. But thank God for Martin Luther.

“"None shall pass"”

Since: Jul 11

There

#758556 Jul 16, 2014
lightbeamrider wrote:
<quoted text> Pedigree, for one.....
ROFLMAO

"I believe what ever Saint Bernards tell me !" Lightheaded Retard

Since: May 09

Location hidden

#758557 Jul 16, 2014
lightbeamrider wrote:
<quoted text>
This is your post 758145
<quoted text>
It explains nothing. You have a specific Hebrew word for dead fetus. The Hebrew language has a term (shachol) that denotes an abortion, or miscarriage (see 2 Kgs. 2:21; Hos. 9:14), yet that word is not used in Exod. 21:22.
Right, a specific word for dead fetus, and so the ambiguity comes into play when the times happen that the child does not die, because, why would the man need to pay a fine if the child lives?

Use that cavernous noggin.

Since: Jun 12

Location hidden

#758558 Jul 16, 2014
sweets2360 wrote:
<quoted text>
What the heck is wrong with you? Are you saying you don't know the difference between an accident and something deliberate?
Abortions today are deliberate. Take a good look at Amos 1:13. That is Old for deliberate abortion.

When they attacked Gilead to extend their borders, they ripped open pregnant women with their swords.
----------
The only difference being in these days the mother is in collusion with the abortionist. And they say the Old does not say anything about deliberate abortions.

----------

2 Kings 8:12.....and their little ones you will dash in pieces, and their women with child you will rip up.”
----------

Hosea 13:16New American Standard Bible (NASB)

16 [a]Samaria will be held guilty,
For she has rebelled against her God.
They will fall by the sword,
Their little ones will be dashed in pieces,
And their pregnant women will be ripped open.

So there you have intentional abortion in the Old. Now they want to say a miscarriage on account of a so called accident only carries a fine? Don't think so because in every other context it is an outrage.

in connection with Hazael (2 Kings 8:12), in concert with whom probably the Ammonites acted (comp. 2 Kings 15:16; Hosea 13:16). Another rendering would refer the clause to the removing of landmarks, and yet a

Since: Jun 12

Location hidden

#758559 Jul 16, 2014
scaritual wrote:
<quoted text> Right, a specific word for dead fetus, and so the ambiguity comes into play when the times happen that the child does not die, because, why would the man need to pay a fine if the child lives?
Use that cavernous noggin.
Use google, Einstein.
http://www.str.org/articles/what-exodus-21-22...
Babies born prematurely require special care. Because their prenatal development has been interrupted, they are especially prone to difficulty. Pre-term babies often can't breast feed, and there can be respiratory problems leading to permanent brain damage. The fine represents reimbursement for the expense of an untimely birth, and punitive damages for the serious trauma.
Anyway, even if the fine was for the miscarriage, this wouldn't prove the child was less than human. A few verses later (v. 32), Moses imposes a fine for the death of a slave, but this doesn't mean the slave is sub-human.
Second, was this the only word that could be used to indicate a miscarriage? No. Two other words were available to convey this particular meaning, if that's what the writer had in mind: nepel and sakal. These are used seven times in the Hebrew text.
The noun nepel[11] means "miscarriage" or "abortion," and is used three times:
----------

A word's meaning in any language is determined in two steps. We learn a word's range of meaning--its possible definitions--inductively by examining its general usage. We learn its specific meaning within that range by the immediate context.

The relevant phrase in the passage, "...she has a miscarriage...," reads w&#730;yase û ye ladêhâ in the Hebrew. It's a combination of a Hebrew noun, yeled, and a verb, yasa, and literally means "the child comes forth." The NASB makes note of this literal rendering in the margin.

The Hebrew noun translated "child" in this passage is yeled[4](yeladim in the plural), and means "child, son, boy, or youth."[5] It comes from the primary root word yalad,[6] meaning "to bear, bring forth, or beget." In the NASB yalad is translated "childbirth" 10 times, some form of "gave birth" over 50 times, and either "bore," "born," or "borne" 180 times.

The verb yasa[7] is a primary, primitive root that means "to go or come out." It is used over a thousand times in the Hebrew Scriptures and has been translated 165 different ways in the NASB--escape, exported, go forth, proceed, take out, to name a few. This gives us a rich source for exegetical comparison. It's translated with some form of "coming out" (e.g., "comes out," "came out," etc.) 103 times, and some form of "going" 445 times.

What's most interesting is to see how frequently yasa refers to the emergence of a living thing:

Genesis 1:24 "Then God said,'Let the earth bring forth living creatures after their kind: cattle and creeping things and beasts of the earth after their kind'; and it was so."

Genesis 8:17 [to Noah] "Bring out with you every living thing of all flesh that is with you, birds and animals and every creeping thing that creeps on the earth...."

“Life may be sweeter for this”

Since: Nov 08

Fennario

#758560 Jul 16, 2014
Hidingfromyou wrote:
Well, we'd have to have a god to test to see if they could pop into existence uncreated and undesigned. I wonder if what you wrote before would actually qualify as deities - the "indifferent, unknowing, insufficiently powerful, and malevolent gods." I mean, why wouldn't we just call them "advanced beings" or something?
If you are a byproduct of evolution in this universe, you are not a god as most monotheists understand and mean the word, however advanced you are. "God" means the sentient, powerful creator of the universe and mankind. So that's my litmus test for a god - creator of the universe or creation of the universe?

The deist god appears to be unknowing or indifferent.

When talking about pantheons, most gods are not universe creators, and many were born the children of gods - hardly the same word at all in that context.

Since: Apr 14

Location hidden

#758561 Jul 16, 2014
Proxy Queen wrote:
<quoted text>
They do keep track of that stuff, sweets. I have a family member that's and accountant for a church, it's a full-time job.
They just don't have to report it. So what? Until they start charging at the door, they shouldn't have to.
Agreed. It is not a requirement to tithe. Many do not tithe. It is no more than a voluntary choice to donate to charity.

Since: Jul 11

Location hidden

#758562 Jul 16, 2014
Joyful8118 wrote:
<quoted text>
Thank you. I, like others, have faltered and slipped into saying hurtful things to others, when they have to me, here and in life. However, I try to improve and better myself. Tolerance is what we all should strive for.
I have read your posts and have enjoyed them. Thanks for the great posts. Have a lovely day, Brenda.
Thank you, Joy, I have enjoyed reading your posts, as well. You seem like a very kind person. Hey, we're all just human, right? All of us make mistakes. The only thing we can strive for is self-improvement in all areas.

You have a good day, too!

Since: May 09

Location hidden

#758563 Jul 16, 2014
lightbeamrider wrote:
<quoted text> Abortions today are deliberate. Take a good look at Amos 1:13. That is Old for deliberate abortion.
When they attacked Gilead to extend their borders, they ripped open pregnant women with their swords.
----------
The only difference being in these days the mother is in collusion with the abortionist. And they say the Old does not say anything about deliberate abortions.
----------
2 Kings 8:12.....and their little ones you will dash in pieces, and their women with child you will rip up.”
----------
Hosea 13:16New American Standard Bible (NASB)
16 [a]Samaria will be held guilty,
For she has rebelled against her God.
They will fall by the sword,
Their little ones will be dashed in pieces,
And their pregnant women will be ripped open.
So there you have intentional abortion in the Old. Now they want to say a miscarriage on account of a so called accident only carries a fine? Don't think so because in every other context it is an outrage.
in connection with Hazael (2 Kings 8:12), in concert with whom probably the Ammonites acted (comp. 2 Kings 15:16; Hosea 13:16). Another rendering would refer the clause to the removing of landmarks, and yet a
lightbeamrider wrote:
Another rendering would refer the clause to the removing of landmarks, and yet a
Gold giraffe?

LEVIATHAN?

Talking donkey?

WHAT, LIGHTBEANRIDER, WHAT? COMPLETE THE SENTENCE!

Since: Jun 12

Location hidden

#758564 Jul 16, 2014
scaritual wrote:
<quoted text>
<quoted text>
Gold giraffe?
LEVIATHAN?
Talking donkey?
WHAT, LIGHTBEANRIDER, WHAT? COMPLETE THE SENTENCE!
Well OK resorting to sarcasm means you are punking out. Go spank your monkey loser.

Since: Jun 14

Location hidden

#758565 Jul 16, 2014
KENTUCKY wrote:
Thx and ..... O.K., peace brother<quoted text>
What up bro?
Did you float green river?
find any fossils?

“Life may be sweeter for this”

Since: Nov 08

Fennario

#758566 Jul 16, 2014
Lab28 wrote:
I didn't mean I'm retiring, I meant I'm done with the semantic argument about fulfilling the law.
OK. It's all been said.
Lab28 wrote:
But I would argue that faith can be broken down with logic and reason.
That's ambiguous. Did you mean that faith can be penetrated by reason? If so, I'd say only rarely. Did you mean that faith could be dissected and analyzed by reason? If so, go for it.
Lab28 wrote:
It isn't an impenetrable wall, but the keys to it are on the inside. There are plenty of difficult questions and complicated answers in Christianity. I don't think it's going to be the well articulated argument on an internet forum that's going to smash it, it's going to be the trials of life. The questions like "how can this be part of the plan" or "where are you when I need you" or "how could you let this happen to me." That's where I see people walk away, it is where they decide that God cannot be in respect to the circumstances they are facing. I have seen it in the lives of my friends, and a piece of them goes away with their faith, they become a degree more cynical than before and they seem so burdened, they lose a lot of the hope I've known them to possess, I've seen some spiral into a hedonistic insanity to end up institutionalized. Is that really where you want to help people?
Abandoning faith was a very good move for me.

And it had nothing to do with anger in gods or rough patches in life. I simply came to the realization that the claims of Christianity were unbelievable to me, that no such god existed, and that religion was unnecessary in my life - about 35 years ago. There was no anger. Just a sense of freedom and hope. I have had a satisfying life, and I have a clear conscience. How do you account for that in your worldview?

It was much later, incidentally, that I understood how much damage the church does and began posting about it.

Since: May 09

Location hidden

#758567 Jul 16, 2014
lightbeamrider wrote:
(edited for space) he child was less than human. A few verses later (v. 32), Moses imposes a fine for the death of a slave, but this doesn't mean the slave is sub-human.
Second, was this the only word that could be used to indicate a miscarriage? No. Two other words were available to convey this particular meaning, if that's what the writer had in mind: nepel and sakal. These are used seven times in the Hebrew text.
The noun nepel[11] means "miscarriage" or "abortion," and is used three times:
----------
A word's meaning in any language is determined in two steps. We learn a word's range of meaning--its possible definitions--inductively by examining its general usage. We learn its specific meaning within that range by the immediate context.
The relevant phrase in the passage, "...she has a miscarriage...," reads w&#730;yase û ye ladêhâ in the Hebrew. It's a combination of a Hebrew noun, yeled, and a verb, yasa, and literally means "the child comes forth." The NASB makes note of this literal rendering in the margin.
The Hebrew noun translated "child" in this passage is yeled[4](yeladim in the plural), and means "child, son, boy, or youth."[5] It comes from the primary root word yalad,[6] meaning "to bear, bring forth, or beget." In the NASB yalad is translated "childbirth" 10 times, some form of "gave birth" over 50 times, and either "bore," "born," or "borne" 180 times.
The verb yasa[7] is a primary, primitive root that means "to go or come out." It is used over a thousand times in the Hebrew Scriptures and has been translated 165 different ways in the NASB--escape, exported, go forth, proceed, take out, to name a few. This gives us a rich source for exegetical comparison. It's translated with some form of "coming out" (e.g., "comes out," "came out," etc.) 103 times, and some form of "going" 445 times.
What's most interesting is to see how frequently yasa refers to the emergence of a living thing:
Genesis 1:24 "Then God said,'Let the earth bring forth living creatures after their kind: cattle and creeping things and beasts of the earth after their kind'; and it was so."
Genesis 8:17 [to Noah] "Bring out with you every living thing of all flesh that is with you, birds and animals and every creeping thing that creeps on the earth...."
We're not talking about what the Christians want it to say, and we aren't talking about the we're talking about what the adherents of Judaism say it says and means.

They were using it long before Christianity was even dreamed up.

It's their book. The Jews wrote it.

"The Torah contains no direct references to pregnancy termination, only to miscarriage following violent altercation. The chief biblical source referring to abortion is Exodus 21:22–25 concerning the man who inadvertently strikes a pregnant woman, causing her to lose the pregnancy. The attacker is not liable for homicide for the death of the fetus, but if the woman dies, the man is liable for her homicide."
http://jwa.org/encyclopedia/article/abortion

"In principle, Judaism does not regard the fetus as a full human being. While deliberately killing a day old baby is murder, according to the Mishnah, a fetus is not covered by this strict homicide rule." Schiff p.27 on mNiddah 5:3, Abortion in Judaism

"The entire Tanakh (Hebrew Bible), is silent on the topic of abortion. A passage in the Torah, however, does reflect a biblical view of a fetus. The passage concerns an injury to a pregnant woman which causes a miscarriage of her fetus. The Torah states that such conduct warrants financial compensation but nothing greater, specifically not the same penalty that would be imposed for murder.(See Ex. 21:22-23.) In other words, this passage considers the fetus as not fully a nefesh, a person, and more akin to personal property."
http://www.jewishjournal.com/judaismandscienc...

Since: Sep 10

Manhattan Beach, CA

#758568 Jul 16, 2014
Joyful8118 wrote:
<quoted text>
Agreed. It is not a requirement to tithe. Many do not tithe. It is no more than a voluntary choice to donate to charity.
OMG.

Those who fail to tithe will spend eternity in a ghastly circle of hell.

For those who do tithe, as Tetzel so well put it,

"As soon as the coin in the coffer rings, the soul from purgatory springs."

As for me, it's Rob Roy time.

Cheers.

Since: Sep 10

Manhattan Beach, CA

#758569 Jul 16, 2014
lightbeamrider wrote:
<quoted text> Well OK resorting to sarcasm means you are punking out. Go spank your monkey loser.
I don't have a monkey loser.

I have a dog, but I don't believe in corporal punishment.

“I never claimed to be Perfect”

Since: Nov 10

just better than yesterday

#758570 Jul 16, 2014
Joyful8118 wrote:
<quoted text>
Agreed. It is not a requirement to tithe. Many do not tithe. It is no more than a voluntary choice to donate to charity.
Tithing is definately in the old Testamant. The tithe was a requirement of the Law in which the Israelites were to give 10 percent of the crops they grew and the livestock they raised to the tabernacle/temple (Leviticus 27:30; Numbers 18:26; Deuteronomy 14:24; 2 Chronicles 31:5).

The New Testament nowhere commands, or even recommends, that Christians submit to a tithe. The New Testament nowhere designates a percentage of income a person should set aside, but only says gifts should be “in keeping with income”(1 Corinthians 16:2). Some in the Christian church have taken the 10 percent figure from the Old Testament tithe and applied it as a “recommended minimum” for Christians in their giving.

Most of my Pastors have preached that this 10% minimum be given joyfully and with a greatful heart. I know that when I was going to Church I had this amount set to come out automatically every week. In addition I donated my time, my talent and sometimes even additional monies to special projects.

I do believe that all of us (not just Christians) should give joyfully to others to help and better those less fortunate. It's just the right thing to do.

I did have a problem when one Sunday, we had a guest speaker (Pastor) who had come into town and was stomping for monies to start his own Church. Anaheim Hills he said. He wanted to save souls in Anaheim Hills. Anaheim Hills the area of Affluent people with an Income very well above all the cities around.

Save souls or get rich? The pastor had arrived in a big new Benz and was dressed to the nines. Needless to say, I contributed nothing to his cause.

I soon left that Church when they started to bring in "guest pastors" and huge video screens and slick commercials at the beginning of the services.

“Life may be sweeter for this”

Since: Nov 08

Fennario

#758571 Jul 16, 2014
Lab28 wrote:
<quoted text>
Okay, so it's a trick because it is an embarrassment to our culture? But what about to the culture of newly converted Jews to which Paul wrote to in Galatians? Would Mosaic law be an insult to them? Of course not, in fact they were insisting that gentiles would need to live by some of those laws in order to find salvation.
If we look at the bible naturalistically, and say that it was written by ancient men, we would expect it to reflect a different worldview. We could talk about cultural relativism, and not judging ancients through modern eyes. I would agree.

Or, you can claim that the bible is the word of a supernatural, universal mind. But if you do, you lose the right to plead cultural relativism. Such a mind would need to be timeless and unchanging.
Lab28 wrote:
Paul's argument is that we aren't righteous due to obedience to the law, though the law is still there in full affect. That the law serves to curse us, but that Christ took the curse for us. Therefore the law was not rescinded, abolished, amended, reformed or whatever else you can do to a law. It was something completely different, something that doesn't really exist outside of the context of Mosaic law and its' relation to a Christian saved by grace, fulfilled.
That's your theology. Righteous, curse, grace. It really doesn't mean much to me, nor serve as an answer.

And your "therefore" was quite a daring leap of faith. It was immediately preceded by the masterful, "the law serves to curse us." How did that get in there? In order to give "fulfill" an application?

Do you believe that your god issued laws as a curse?
Lab28 wrote:
Yeah a law can't be fulfilled, unless you're Jesus.
And I said I was done with the semantic argument, oh well, not the first time I've been a hypocrite.
KENTUCKY

Louisville, KY

#758572 Jul 16, 2014
hey bud.

Not green river but a local creek and yes we found about 15 brachiopods(sea shell) fully intact. They everywhere, I prolly got 100 of em stashed away. Only one kid showed great interest the others just liked swimming and rafting. haha Good times.

Takin a fossil found 10 yrs ago upon Scaritual advise to a local geologist at the Falls of the Ohio Museum 2mrw. Good learning experience for lil ones and me 2.

How you "babies" doin ? growin up strong I hope. hehe... getting about that time.

...and for you



knock em dead kid !.
dirty white boy- wrote:
<quoted text> What up bro?
Did you float green river?
find any fossils?

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