Prove there's a god.

“Life may be sweeter for this”

Since: Nov 08

Fennario

#709075 Mar 31, 2014
Ghost Writer 2 You wrote:
Let's take a closer look at Genesis. I'll commentate as we go along. My commentary will be in brackets.
Great. I just cited it.
Ghost Writer 2 You wrote:
3 And God said,“Let there be light,” and there was light. 4 God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light “day,” and the darkness he called “night.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day.[When God said "Let there be light." it indicates an intention to create light. God declared a goal, and then accomplished the goal. What happened and how it happened between those two events doesn't matter.

It doesn't describe any process whatsoever. Agreed?
No, I don't agree. It does describe a process, albeit a magical one. God spoke and matter responded. What happened in between would matter had it actually happened. It is the essence of this discussion. For most believers, nothing else happened. The deity spoke it and it came to pass.

“Life may be sweeter for this”

Since: Nov 08

Fennario

#709076 Mar 31, 2014
Ghost Writer 2 You wrote:
Let's move along. Notice that God separates light from darkness but still no process is described. It only says what He did, and NOT HOW it was done. Therefore, we can use reasoning to infer that the author doesn't care how it was done. Or at least not enough to offer a description.

It's irrelevant.
Not to me. It indicates that the author was unsophisticated. He didn't realize that there would be no light without a source of illumination like the sun, and no darkness without an opaque body like the earth to block it out - two things which hadn't been created yet.
Ghost Writer 2 You wrote:
He doesn't take any pains to describe a process. If it was central to the purpose of the narrative, don't you think it would've been written down? Even if wrong by our own modern understanding of science? I mean really. If such a book as the Bible is so important to humanity, and if the process by which creation occurred is so important, then the process would've been written down. And it wasn't. So all of your debunking is in vain. It's like trying to officiate a baseball game using ice hockey rules.]
What?

Genesis reads like the words of primitive men. I'm sure that they did the best that they could to come up with a plausible story. It simply doesn't curt the mustard any more. You can't make it seem godlike with any number of words.

“Life may be sweeter for this”

Since: Nov 08

Fennario

#709077 Mar 31, 2014
BenAdam wrote:
I make up yard work so I can 'hire' a local couple so they can buy food and diapers for their baby. They won't accept "charity".
That's a good thing to do - direct spending.

And that's what Susie does as well - spends her charitable money directly rather than giving it to an agency or a church. It's the only way to be certain that our charitable dollars are not being wasted or stolen, which is our moral obligation. Big projects far away like disaster relief are better handled by governments, or, if you prefer, by going there yourself and spending your money directly. There is plenty of need right in front of you, and some of it is handled with service rather than spending money.

I had a good day yesterday. I got a dog that was living in a very small space on a very short chain hooked up with a loving home. I was there to see this dog run for what may have been the first time in weeks or months.

“When you treat people as they ”

Since: Nov 10

treat you they get offended.

#709078 Mar 31, 2014
wilderide wrote:
<quoted text>
Lol. No prob. Hey, some of my best friends are women. ;)
Honestly, I feel a bit sorry for women. First of all, they have all that complicated plumbing that can really be a drag for some of them. And THEN they have to put up with men, who seem more victimized by their own testosterone than anything else. You have two people who are hormonally thrust together (pun intended) who will often have completely different agendas. If humans were created by a deity, that deity loves practical jokes.
That plumbing can be a drag and so can men, so often profoundly egotestical (correct spelling) but without them there would be no us.

“When you treat people as they ”

Since: Nov 10

treat you they get offended.

#709079 Mar 31, 2014
nanoanomaly wrote:
<quoted text>...but did IT see you (coming)...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v =UYd9I5i1_PsXX
...babee?
hahahahaha...
it wouldna if it couldna nodda seen you...evah, evah, evah
Methinks you need to see your doctor about increasing your meds.

“When you treat people as they ”

Since: Nov 10

treat you they get offended.

#709080 Mar 31, 2014
BenAdam wrote:
Bankers' best guesses about the Vatican's wealth put it at $10 billion to $15 billion.
A single meal to feed a starving child costs only 22 cents to produce.
So much for Christian Charity.
The collection plate will be handed round after this short message

Bless you my son.

Since: Feb 14

Location hidden

#709081 Mar 31, 2014
Scrooge wrote:
<quoted text>
Child in Time is a classic. I really miss Blackmore playing heavy rock.
Yeah, He Rocks! one of the greats for sure..

“"None shall pass"”

Since: Jul 11

There

#709082 Mar 31, 2014
It aint necessarily so wrote:
<quoted text>
I just read these two articles and wanted to share them with you, Susie.
[1] "Texas legislature fails on abortion, passes masturbation bill"
http://tribuneherald.net/2013/06/26/texas-leg...
"Coming down to the final minute as Texas Lt. Governor David Dewhurst forced Sen. Wendy Davis to end her filibuster, the legislature was unable to pass a widely decried abortion bill. The legislature was able to accomplish another aspect of their pro-life agenda though, a ban on male masturbation. One Texas lawmaker joyously announced after the passing of the measure,“this marks a milestone for the pro-life movement! We must protect the unborn any way we can; I’m very proud that my fellow legislators voted to protect life, even in its earliest stages!”
[2] "Alabama Supreme Court Upholds Anti-Masturbation Law"
http://digitaljournal.com/article/280303
Non-Christians don't really care what Christians think Jesus wants, and it's absurd to think that they should be prosecuted by the law for offending Christian sensitivities, but entirely within the Christian mindset to try.
These laws are a taste of what I believe would be the kind of freedom we could expect should zealous Christians ever gain control of the government. As you can see, there is zero respect for non-Christian values and freedoms, something to keep in mind when complaining about Christian rights not being respected.
The USA South (AKA Bible Belt) is full of these ignorant perverts who worry 24/7 about gay men and men masturbating. "Southern Man" sure fantasizes a lot about other men's genitalia.

“"None shall pass"”

Since: Jul 11

There

#709083 Mar 31, 2014
It aint necessarily so wrote:
<quoted text>
Here are a few terms from psychology relevant to the topic of faith, and the proclivity of some to see a god where others do not:
[1] Need for closure - psychological term that describes an individual's desire for a firm answer to a question and an aversion toward ambiguity. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v =2jHO-7aodbwXX
[2] Primacy effect - that which is heard first has the greatest effect. It is greatest in those with the greatest need for closure (relates to childhood messages about gods) http://psychology.wikia.com/wiki/Primacy_effe...
[3] Seizing and freezing – latching onto whatever information comes along first and then ignoring contradictory information that comes along later. An extreme manifestation of the need for closure and primacy effect.“The urgency tendency represents an individual's inclination to attain closure as soon as possible, and the permanence tendency represents an individual's inclination to maintain it for as long as possible.”
[4] Belief perseverance - the tendency to cling to ideas even when confronted with evidence to the contrary. http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-belief-persev...
[5] Teleological thinking – hardwired tendency to see things as having a purpose.
[6] Psychological attribution - the tendency to assign reasons and infer the causes of events or behaviors. http://psychology.about.com/od/socialpsycholo...
[7] Patternicity (apophenia and pareidolia)- the experience of seeing meaningful patterns or connections in random or meaningless data. http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/pat... .
[8] Agenticity - the belief that things are controlled by a thinking and deciding mind, a type of anthropomophization. http://www.youtube.com/watch...
Excellent post !

“"None shall pass"”

Since: Jul 11

There

#709084 Mar 31, 2014
It aint necessarily so wrote:
<quoted text>
That's a good thing to do - direct spending.
And that's what Susie does as well - spends her charitable money directly rather than giving it to an agency or a church. It's the only way to be certain that our charitable dollars are not being wasted or stolen, which is our moral obligation. Big projects far away like disaster relief are better handled by governments, or, if you prefer, by going there yourself and spending your money directly. There is plenty of need right in front of you, and some of it is handled with service rather than spending money.
I had a good day yesterday. I got a dog that was living in a very small space on a very short chain hooked up with a loving home. I was there to see this dog run for what may have been the first time in weeks or months.
There is a need for trusted "middlemen" for charitable work outside ones direct area, they are far and few and "the church" is on a par with "governments" as far as trust is concerned.

During the last Indonesian tsunami, the US Government provided a paltry $35 million dollars in aid.
The death toll was 6000.
The homeless who sere in the process of adding to the death toll through exposure, starvation and thirst was 2,000,000.

“Life may be sweeter for this”

Since: Nov 08

Fennario

#709085 Mar 31, 2014
Ghost Writer 2 You wrote:
I'm being civil because I like and respect you.
Thanks. Me, too.
Ghost Writer 2 You wrote:
What I find excessive and unreasonable is your standard for evidence. It's unreasonable precisely because it is excessive. Evidence has its limits. Especially historical evidence. Historical evidence is not evaluated with the same scrutiny as criminal justice analysis.
I don't find the evidence for the Christian god sufficient for belief. The claims for it are extraordinary, and the evidence is weak.
Ghost Writer 2 You wrote:
I'm a historian. Professionally trained. If there's one thing I'm aware of, it's how to evaluate evidence for credibility. I wouldn't be paid for what I do if I didn't know the value of evidence. Please don't assume I settle for lower standards if you don't know what I do and what my job entails ... I was agnostic. I came to believe BECAUSE of the evidence. I did NOT apply evidence to what I already believed. It's the historical evidence for the reliability of the New Testament and the canonical gospels specifically that led me to trust.
I'm also pretty good at evaluating evidence. It was my job as well. I disagree with you about the quality of the evidence for the Christian god, and how to interpret it.
It aint necessarily so wrote:
I apply evidence based methods to all my analyses.
Ghost Writer 2 You wrote:
And that's what I do for a living, on a daily basis. You should see the criteria that is applied to determine if a document is historically reliable. I think you'd be pleasantly surprised, if you aren't too cynical going into it at the start.
I'm sure that you are very good at your job.
It aint necessarily so wrote:
You seem to trust faith. That seems like surefire way to be deceived
Ghost Writer 2 You wrote:
Trust is synonymous with faith. Your statement is rhetorically redundant. That seems like a surefire way to keep repeating yourself.:)
I will repeat myself every time you do. Anything can be trusted, although not always justifiably so. And the word faith can used in two radically different ways, one tied to evidence, and the other only to the will to believe. Your repeated blurring of the distinction and your faith in an unseen god undermine your professional credential as an evidence based thinker.

Sorry, but I understand religious faith, and how it corrupts judgment and objectivity.

Since: Feb 14

Location hidden

#709086 Mar 31, 2014
BenAdam wrote:
<quoted text>
The USA South (AKA Bible Belt) is full of these ignorant perverts who worry 24/7 about gay men and men masturbating. "Southern Man" sure fantasizes a lot about other men's genitalia.
It seems that the courts and people, should be worried about something other than people treating themselves like an amusement park! that is just plum [email protected] ridiculous for the courts to be worried or even consider dumb shyt like that!! Southern Man sure lives up to the Label..Pitiful!!

“Faith = Trust”

Since: Mar 14

Location hidden

#709087 Mar 31, 2014
Darwins Stepchild wrote:
<quoted text>
Now, now. Play nice.
Ghost Writer believes what he believes because his mommy told him it was true when he was a wee lad. That is why 99.9% of all believers believe.(OK...I did pull that number out of my arse, but the percentage is way up there.) That is why you may have people change from one sect to another, but almost never change their base religion. People born to Christians stay Christian. People born to Islam stay Islam. Etc (ad nauseam)
Not so fast there. You're using a genetic fallacy. I actually grew up agnostic. My family wasn't real big on religion, nor were they against any religious belief. It was just irrelevant in our house. I came to believe after becoming a professional historian. You'd be surprised at how much history is in the Bible.
feces for jesus

Brooklyn, NY

#709088 Mar 31, 2014
Scrooge is a Liar wrote:
<quoted text>
Ahh, I see your demons were upset about my comment.
It is the Hell designed and created for cretins like you to suffer in. Many like you are burning in Hell right now and have been for centuries. Eternity is a long time and that is how long you will be there as punishment for your debauchery and blasphemy, you despicable and repugnant human filth.
You are the one that has rejected Christ and therefore you are to suffer in Hell along with the demons that you have embraced. It's not my fault, it's yours.
You are a person of hate and you deserve to be eternally damned.
Hell isnt in the bible, numbnuts

Since: Feb 14

Location hidden

#709089 Mar 31, 2014
Ghost Writer 2 You wrote:
<quoted text>
Not so fast there. You're using a genetic fallacy. I actually grew up agnostic. My family wasn't real big on religion, nor were they against any religious belief. It was just irrelevant in our house. I came to believe after becoming a professional historian. You'd be surprised at how much history is in the Bible.
Can't Science be applied to the Bible through Archaeological means? And History by confirming cities?

“When you treat people as they ”

Since: Nov 10

treat you they get offended.

#709090 Mar 31, 2014
Ghost Writer 2 You wrote:
<quoted text>
Not so fast there. You're using a genetic fallacy. I actually grew up agnostic. My family wasn't real big on religion, nor were they against any religious belief. It was just irrelevant in our house. I came to believe after becoming a professional historian. You'd be surprised at how much history is in the Bible.
Oh I don’t think he’d be surprised, on the contrary DS is no doubt fully aware that certain personalities and places in the babble actually have evidence to support them being a reality. Like all good stories a certain amount of realism adds to the drama.

That in no way means that the main characters in the babble are any more real. In fact, as a historian I am surprised that you have not realised that there is actually no validated evidence for any god or jesus or adam or eve or abraham or noah etc.

In the latter case there is considerable historical evidence to show the story is complete BS.

Adam and Eve surely lived, genetic evidence shows this, the fact that Y chromosome adam and mdna eve lived over 100,000 years apart does give rise to some questions

In the case of jesus there is contradictory evidence as to whether he actually existed or not, some of that evidence brands him as a murderer and terrorist.

You say you are an historian, study the evidence.

Since: Feb 14

Location hidden

#709092 Mar 31, 2014
Ghost Writer 2 You wrote:
<quoted text>
Not so fast there. You're using a genetic fallacy. I actually grew up agnostic. My family wasn't real big on religion, nor were they against any religious belief. It was just irrelevant in our house. I came to believe after becoming a professional historian. You'd be surprised at how much history is in the Bible.
I would think the Oral Tradition of the Bible and One God would go back much further, than when the Bible was actually written, that would, for sure, make it's origin hard to trace.. when was that rock with the Hebrew Alphabet craved into found? I can't remember what age they had dated the Rock to be..

“"None shall pass"”

Since: Jul 11

There

#709097 Mar 31, 2014
pusherman_ wrote:
<quoted text> Can't Science be applied to the Bible through Archaeological means? And History by confirming cities?
Your theory would mean that because London, England exists then Harry Potter books are documentaries.

Note, there is little archeological evidence supporting a single thing in the Bible other than some place and people names. In fact the evidence often contradicts what the Bible says.

Example, "Nazareth" is not mentioned outside the Gospel of Luke until 300 years after Jesus died. It also places the writing of (the current iteration of) Luke as being written centuries after Jesus and Paul (and any 'Luke' of the time) were long dead.

Imagine a copy of the Declaration of Independence that refereed to the Lunar landining . Would you believe it was written in 1776 ?

“"None shall pass"”

Since: Jul 11

There

#709098 Mar 31, 2014
pusherman_ wrote:
<quoted text> I would think the Oral Tradition of the Bible and One God would go back much further, than when the Bible was actually written, that would, for sure, make it's origin hard to trace.. when was that rock with the Hebrew Alphabet craved into found? I can't remember what age they had dated the Rock to be..
Oral Tradition is notoriously useless.

"My grandad's grandad's grandad's grandad's grandad's grandad's said -------"

“Ditat Deus”

Since: Jul 12

Location hidden

#709099 Mar 31, 2014
Ghost Writer 2 You wrote:
<quoted text>
Have a great weekend RR. Shalom.:)
Mission accomplished.

Tell me when this thread is updated:

Subscribe Now Add to my Tracker

Add your comments below

Characters left: 4000

Please note by submitting this form you acknowledge that you have read the Terms of Service and the comment you are posting is in compliance with such terms. Be polite. Inappropriate posts may be removed by the moderator. Send us your feedback.

Top Stories Discussions

Title Updated Last By Comments
News Letter: DNC accept responsibility 1 min PoliciaFederal 42
News Roman Catholic church only true church, says Va... (Jul '07) 3 min New Age Spiritual... 667,755
The Christian Atheist debate (Jun '15) 5 min Rider on the Storm 92,611
Jehovah's Witnesses are true disciple of Jesus ... (Mar '07) 1 hr Student 46,035
Bush is a hero (Sep '07) 1 hr Rider on the Storm 183,621
Poll Was 9/11 a conspiracy?? (Oct '07) 5 hr onemales son 286,022
Poll If you're Christain what kind are you? (Oct '07) 6 hr dolarsbill 19,322
More from around the web