Prove there's a god.

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#675353 Nov 23, 2013
thewordofme wrote:
<quoted text>
“Everyone believes himself a priori to be perfectly free, even in his individual actions, and thinks that at every moment he can commence another manner of life.… But a posteriori, through experience, he finds to his astonishment that he is not free, but subjected to necessity, that in spite of all his resolutions and reflections he does not change his conduct, and that from the beginning of his life to the end of it, he must carry out the very character which he himself condemns….”-- Schopenhauer
“All people living on the Earth will worship [The Devil], except those whose names were written before the creation of the world in the book of the living which belongs to [Jesus].” Revelations 13:8
“[God] has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity,” 2 Timothy 1:9
 
“Praise be to [God], who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will-to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves.” Ephesians 1:4-6 NIV
Some of the best known Christians in history have taught there is no free will, including St. Augustine , Martin Luther, and John Calvin. The Christian Bible states in many places that God creates our future and decides our fates. It constantly denies that we have free will. If God knows exactly what will happen,(Being omnipotent and omniscient of course) the status of choices as free, is questionable.
And of course no one has yet come up with ANY proof of God....which is what this particular thread is about.
But if we remove free will, then religious people will be confronted with the fact that god has created most of the human race for the express purpose of torturing them for eternity. They wouldn't like that. Well, some would.

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#675354 Nov 23, 2013
Skombolis wrote:
<quoted text>And you think what could be gained be trying to prove there is a God or there is free will?
That was my only point. Not that someone couldn't question it. It is some pretty much the first question someone asks when they take psychology 101 or smokes their first joint. But to intentionally get into an exchange to argue about something that can't be proven? And exchange I have seen repeat itself on Topix over and over again? No thanks
But because this conversation drives me nuts that people say someone knowing the future means there is no free will, let me leave you with one thought on why that isn't the case. Someone can see across a timeline to know a future. They can see past, present, and future. So say God look one year into the future at November 23, 2014 to see what I chose to do that Sunday. Whatever he saw me do is because he moved to a place in time where that was happening in the present. All he did was observe. He did not control my actions. And just because someone can see into the future doesn't mean someone else gets to live the same day twice. You guys act like I was predestined to do what I did on November 23, 2014 because God looked into the future. But I am not predestined to do it. I can only live that day once, And God simply saw what I chose to do on that day.
Its not like someone looking into the future to see what I did November 23, 2014 means I get a second crack at the day and can live it twice. I only see that day one time and whatever i choose on that day, God can could see. If Gog exists and if God can see the future. And if we exist. And if we have free will.
It is so baffling to me this conversation keeps repeating itself. God knowing the future wouldn't negate free-will. And nobody can prove we have free-will. Nobody can even prove we exist for that matter. And yes Timothy says that is what God wants for us. It also says many are called and few are chosen and narrow is the gate. Just because He wants it for us doesn't mean he is going to force it to happen
You are leaving out several important points.

1)God would not simply "peek" into the future - he would know what is happening everywhere at every possible moment.

2) Not only would he know every outcome (and every possible outcome for that matter), he would *have the ability to change it.* That is the important part.

3) By virtue of his omnipotence and omnipresence, as soon as the universe was set into motion (or even before), god knew *everything* that would ever happen, and because he has the ability to change everything, that means all events necessarily transpire according to his will.

So, if I had the ability to know someone I loved dearly (as god does us according to your mythology) was going make a bad choice and be tortured for eternity, and I could, with a snap of my fingers, prevent this from happening, what would it mean if I allowed them to be tortured?

It would mean that I wanted it to happen, or at least consented to it. It would mean that I am quite evil. It would also mean that they never really had any choice in the matter at all, only the illusion of it.

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#675355 Nov 23, 2013
Al Garcia wrote:
<quoted text>
What is free will?
Could it be that two people, under the same circumstances choosing to do different things?
Could it be one person, under the same conditions doing any of several things?
I just wonder if an all powerful God doesn't just know of a single outcome but of a range of multiple outcomes for a person or situation with all outcomes being valid.
What if he knows but still allows you to pick your choice among many choices? When a person makes a choice, they might review multiple options, but the choice they eventually make is due to who they are based on their personality, values and thoughts.
So what if God knowing the outcome still allows us to form our own values and thoughts? Who said the future is set in stone?
If he doesn't know the actual outcome then he is not omnipotent.

And if he knows your choice but still allows you to pick from a range of choices, then your choice is a convincing illusion.

“I never claimed to be Perfect”

Since: Nov 10

just better than yesterday

#675358 Nov 23, 2013
timn17 wrote:
<quoted text>If he doesn't know the actual outcome then he is not omnipotent.
And if he knows your choice but still allows you to pick from a range of choices, then your choice is a convincing illusion.
I never said he didn't know the actual outcome, I said he knows ALL the outcomes. All outcomesare valid.

Why must we limit our thinking to just one or two things?

Why should our limitations be his limitations just because we can't see or grasp what's beyond or current vison?

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#675359 Nov 23, 2013
Subliminal Criminal wrote:
<quoted text>
You are parsing words here because you believe what you say is true, through your faith in scientific theories.
The Indians built no great cities, had no great means of warfare, and thats why they lost their land.
Not because of any religion.
Don't forget the smallpox.

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#675360 Nov 23, 2013
Al Garcia wrote:
<quoted text>
I never said he didn't know the actual outcome, I said he knows ALL the outcomes. All outcomesare valid.
Why must we limit our thinking to just one or two things?
Why should our limitations be his limitations just because we can't see or grasp what's beyond or current vison?
I understand what you're getting at, but when applied to an omnipotent deity it doesn't make much sense. If he is omnipresent, he either must know which one of the potential outcomes will occur, or he is not truly omnipresent. One of the outcomes *must* be the actual outcome, and an omnipresent deity would necessarily know it, unless you are positing some sort of infinite universes scenario.

Since: Jun 13

Location hidden

#675361 Nov 23, 2013
Proof of God.

Stephen Hawking:

" It would have been what is called, a singularity. At a singularity, all the laws of physics would have broken down. This means that the state of the universe, after the Big Bang, will not depend on anything that may have happened before"

BS the laws of physics don't break down. That's why they are called laws.

" at this point was the beginning to the universe, and of time itself,"

YES he cannot explain time within reality.

"Many people were unhappy with the idea that the universe had a beginning, because it seemed to imply the existence of a supernatural being who created the universe. They preferred to believe that the universe, and the human race, had existed forever"

These "many people were unhappy with the idea that the universe had a beginning" would be Atheist.

Science has to stop all the laws of physics for them to explain time. Yup no laws of the universe could existence for time to start. No laws no universe. Science is basically claiming that time came from outside of the universe.

Definition of universe: ALL that is known or postulated

Looks like there is no outside of the universe with that true and current definition.

That just leaves Science MAGIC or GOD the creator.

http://www.hawking.org.uk/the-beginning-of-ti...

“Proud Member”

Since: Dec 10

The Basket of Deplorables

#675362 Nov 23, 2013
Al Garcia wrote:
<quoted text>
What is free will?
Could it be that two people, under the same circumstances choosing to do different things?
Could it be one person, under the same conditions doing any of several things?
I just wonder if an all powerful God doesn't just know of a single outcome but of a range of multiple outcomes for a person or situation with all outcomes being valid.
What if he knows but still allows you to pick your choice among many choices? When a person makes a choice, they might review multiple options, but the choice they eventually make is due to who they are based on their personality, values and thoughts.
So what if God knowing the outcome still allows us to form our own values and thoughts? Who said the future is set in stone?

Philosophers have puzzled this out for thousands of years,the conclusion is the same. This is as heavy as the cosmological argument, another never ending unsolvable mystery.
But the incompatibility between the issues shows us it is a human devised dilemma, illogical; and we are good at such.
It goes like this.

1 An all-powerful (omnipotent) God could prevent evil from existing in the world.
2 An all-knowing (omniscient) God would know that there was evil in the world.
3 An all-good (omnibenevolent) God would wish to prevent evil from existing in the world.
4 There is evil in the world.

Now you can go to Plantinga's argument, saying it's possible but
he did not address natural evil so you still have to revert back to god created evil allowed evil to exist and manipulated evil
either way free will is manicured by an omnipotent God , therefore nonexistent.
So it is more likely there is no omnipotent God , and we do have freewill, and all this philosophical mumbo jumbo as meaningless as the human concept of first sin.

I choose to think this is all nothing more than the working of our diametrically opposed brains working together and is nothing more than the human nature of the inquisitive animals we evolved to be.
We must conquer the battle within ourselves before we act in the world, though some of us never will do this. But we maintain a balance between what we feel is right in how we should treat others and the driving force of survival. We are three people in one head, all of us are good, evil and neutral, we find our own balance between them. Or at least the best of us find what we believe to be a correct balance between these brain functions.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alvin_Plantinga%...

“Ditat Deus”

Since: Jul 12

Location hidden

#675363 Nov 23, 2013
timn17 wrote:
<quoted text>But if we remove free will, then religious people will be confronted with the fact that god has created most of the human race for the express purpose of torturing them for eternity. They wouldn't like that. Well, some would.
"if we remove free will"

O_o

G'head. Try.

“Ditat Deus”

Since: Jul 12

Location hidden

#675364 Nov 23, 2013
timn17 wrote:
<quoted text>I understand what you're getting at, but when applied to an omnipotent deity it doesn't make much sense. If he is omnipresent, he either must know which one of the potential outcomes will occur, or he is not truly omnipresent. One of the outcomes *must* be the actual outcome, and an omnipresent deity would necessarily know it, unless you are positing some sort of infinite universes scenario.
Hey timn, when you get some God powers, then you can change reality to your preferred view.

Until then, you just gotta roll with it.

And enjoy your God given free will to not believe in Him.

You have that choice.

Thanks to God.

“Ditat Deus”

Since: Jul 12

Location hidden

#675365 Nov 23, 2013
Aura Mytha wrote:

1 An all-powerful (omnipotent) God could prevent evil from existing in the world.
2 An all-knowing (omniscient) God would know that there was evil in the world.
3 An all-good (omnibenevolent) God would wish to prevent evil from existing in the world.
4 There is evil in the world.
Correct.

Because God have us free will to do what we choose to do.

If He took away that free will, He wouldn't be all-loving, He'd be more like a dictator.

Is that what you'd prefer?

“I never claimed to be Perfect”

Since: Nov 10

just better than yesterday

#675366 Nov 23, 2013
Aura Mytha wrote:
<quoted text>
Philosophers have puzzled this out for thousands of years,the conclusion is the same. This is as heavy as the cosmological argument, another never ending unsolvable mystery.
But the incompatibility between the issues shows us it is a human devised dilemma, illogical; and we are good at such.
It goes like this.
1 An all-powerful (omnipotent) God could prevent evil from existing in the world.
2 An all-knowing (omniscient) God would know that there was evil in the world.
3 An all-good (omnibenevolent) God would wish to prevent evil from existing in the world.
4 There is evil in the world.
Now you can go to Plantinga's argument, saying it's possible but
he did not address natural evil so you still have to revert back to god created evil allowed evil to exist and manipulated evil
either way free will is manicured by an omnipotent God , therefore nonexistent.
So it is more likely there is no omnipotent God , and we do have freewill, and all this philosophical mumbo jumbo as meaningless as the human concept of first sin.
I choose to think this is all nothing more than the working of our diametrically opposed brains working together and is nothing more than the human nature of the inquisitive animals we evolved to be.
We must conquer the battle within ourselves before we act in the world, though some of us never will do this. But we maintain a balance between what we feel is right in how we should treat others and the driving force of survival. We are three people in one head, all of us are good, evil and neutral, we find our own balance between them. Or at least the best of us find what we believe to be a correct balance between these brain functions.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alvin_Plantinga%...
What if he chooses to do nothing? and lets us decide how to pilot our ship?

“Proud Member”

Since: Dec 10

The Basket of Deplorables

#675367 Nov 23, 2013
Subliminal Criminal wrote:
<quoted text>
You are parsing words here because you believe what you say is true, through your faith in scientific theories.
The Indians built no great cities, had no great means of warfare, and thats why they lost their land.
Not because of any religion.
The Indians were decimated by guns, germs and steel, the fact white man was technologically superior is part of the reason, but it does not make it right.

As far as great cities? there were great cities The American Indians were nomadic though and followed the buffalo. A few built permanent cities.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Pueblo_P...

But you are now saying you measure people by warfare?
The Indians had the first guerrilla warfare tactics, that our swamp fox learned to use, what they didn't have was unity in numbers fast enough to repel our invasion. But we ravaged them with smallpox and diseases. You are a apologist for the genocide and atrocities we committed, shame on you.

“Proud Member”

Since: Dec 10

The Basket of Deplorables

#675368 Nov 23, 2013
Al Garcia wrote:
<quoted text>
What if he chooses to do nothing? and lets us decide how to pilot our ship?
If there isn't one , it didn't have to choose to do nothing did it?

“I see quantum effects”

Since: Jan 11

In the macro world.

#675369 Nov 23, 2013
Al Garcia wrote:
<quoted text>What if he chooses to do nothing? and lets us decide how to pilot our ship?
Then there's not much sense in worshipping him.

Or even acknowledging him.

Hey, Al. How's things?

“Proud Member”

Since: Dec 10

The Basket of Deplorables

#675370 Nov 23, 2013
Aerobatty wrote:
<quoted text>
Then there's not much sense in worshipping him.
Or even acknowledging him.
Hey, Al. How's things?
Exactly, if god chose not to exist, then it doesn't exist.

“I never claimed to be Perfect”

Since: Nov 10

just better than yesterday

#675371 Nov 23, 2013
Aerobatty wrote:
<quoted text>
Then there's not much sense in worshipping him.
Or even acknowledging him.
Hey, Al. How's things?
Very well my friend..... at work today as always....
seems like I live here..........

Hows things going with you and your place of employment?
thewordofme

Tucson, AZ

#675372 Nov 23, 2013
Skombolis wrote:
<quoted text>And you think what could be gained be trying to prove there is a God or there is free will?
That was my only point. Not that someone couldn't question it. It is some pretty much the first question someone asks when they take psychology 101 or smokes their first joint. But to intentionally get into an exchange to argue about something that can't be proven? And exchange I have seen repeat itself on Topix over and over again? No thanks
But because this conversation drives me nuts that people say someone knowing the future means there is no free will, let me leave you with one thought on why that isn't the case. Someone can see across a timeline to know a future. They can see past, present, and future. So say God look one year into the future at November 23, 2014 to see what I chose to do that Sunday. Whatever he saw me do is because he moved to a place in time where that was happening in the present. All he did was observe. He did not control my actions. And just because someone can see into the future doesn't mean someone else gets to live the same day twice. You guys act like I was predestined to do what I did on November 23, 2014 because God looked into the future. But I am not predestined to do it. I can only live that day once, And God simply saw what I chose to do on that day.
Its not like someone looking into the future to see what I did November 23, 2014 means I get a second crack at the day and can live it twice. I only see that day one time and whatever i choose on that day, God can could see. If Gog exists and if God can see the future. And if we exist. And if we have free will.
It is so baffling to me this conversation keeps repeating itself. God knowing the future wouldn't negate free-will. And nobody can prove we have free-will. Nobody can even prove we exist for that matter. And yes Timothy says that is what God wants for us. It also says many are called and few are chosen and narrow is the gate. Just because He wants it for us doesn't mean he is going to force it to happen
Let’s go back to the beginning of all of this.
Picture Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden (assuming that they existed, but we know they didn't) and about to eat of the fruit of the ‘knowledge tree.’ God, because of His omniscience, already knows this is going to happen….knows they WILL consume the fruit and freak out about their nakedness.

Now God also knows, because of His omniscience, that although the Hebrew’s don’t mention it for 4,000 years, Paul will invent ‘Original Sin’ and posit that this sin applies to all mankind….this in spite of the fact that the Bible says several times that the sons DO NOT inherit the sins of the fathers (however in other verses it says they do).

Now right off the bat we are confronted with a dilemma….God knows without a doubt that Adam and Eve are going to eat of the fruit….He knows that Paul will invent ‘Original Sin’ 4000 years later. All of this happens, as God would have foresaw it, and it totally contradicts human ‘Free Will.’

This is just one small example of the lack of logic and the contradictory nature of the stories in ‘Gods Handbook’, the Bible. We both DO and DO NOT have free will and there seems to be no resolution.

I just love this little riff on the incomprehensible logic of the Jesus is God dogma.

“The belief that a walking dead Jewish deity who was his own father although he always existed, commits suicide by cop, although he didn't stay dead, in order to give himself permission not to send you to an eternal place of torture that he created for you, but instead to let you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh, drink his blood, and telepathically promise him you accept him as your master, so he can cleanse you of an evil force that is present in mankind because a rib-woman and a mud-man were convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree, which he knew they would do to begin with.”-- Anon.

“You Can't Throw MeTo TheWolves”

Since: May 10

THEY COME WHEN I CALL

#675373 Nov 23, 2013
Greens - tuf wrote:
<quoted text>. " You're just an angry, hateful little christian who has a really nasty tendency to bring out the worst in people."
Yep, you are proof of that.
Translation: "How dare you treat him the way he treats you?*You're* not a christian,*you* can't do that!"

“You Can't Throw MeTo TheWolves”

Since: May 10

THEY COME WHEN I CALL

#675374 Nov 23, 2013
Greens - tuf wrote:
<quoted text>
So.... What is real magic ?
Science not yet explained. As in, witches and other ancient herbalists who treated "heart palpitations" in their patients with foxglove. Do you know what's in the foxglove plant? Digitalis.

I don't expect you to understand that, and I fully expect you to reject the facts I'm giving you. After all, you are a superstitious christian atheist, whose "god" is nothing more than paper and ink.

Tell me when this thread is updated:

Subscribe Now Add to my Tracker

Add your comments below

Characters left: 4000

Please note by submitting this form you acknowledge that you have read the Terms of Service and the comment you are posting is in compliance with such terms. Be polite. Inappropriate posts may be removed by the moderator. Send us your feedback.

Top Stories Discussions

Title Updated Last By Comments
Jehovah's Witnesses are true disciple of Jesus ... (Mar '07) 4 min Neville Thompson 45,597
Cuckold (Jan '16) 9 min Marc 5
The Christian Atheist debate (Jun '15) 13 min Clearwater 70,429
Poll Was 9/11 a conspiracy?? (Oct '07) 14 min Neville Thompson 282,924
Moms having sex with their sons (Aug '12) 35 min Hilary 93
News Roman Catholic church only true church, says Va... (Jul '07) 1 hr guest 658,507
ye olde village pub (Jun '07) 2 hr Ruby88 53,931
Why I’m no longer a Christian (Jul '08) 3 hr cuckoldpaul 445,525
More from around the web