Prove there's a god.

Since: Jul 10

Location hidden

#675318 Nov 22, 2013
chance47 wrote:
<quoted text>
If god truly didn't want people to sin, then his will would prevent it.
So, the fact that people sin must imply either 1) god is incapable of preventing it or 2) god wants people to sin, or 3) god is impartial enough to allow people to sin.
In the case of 1) the challenge is whether or not humanity should revere such a god.
In both cases 2) and 3) the question is why poeple should ask to be forgiven at all.
Freewill allows a person to show God and himself on what kind of person he really is, meaning is he a man who loves God and tries diligently not to sin or is he a man who has no desire to do God's will as he loves this world and everything in it. This is the only way God can judge us by using freewill and sin to see whether or not you love God or you love this world more, it's all up to you. God is pure love and being such he can only judge in such a way that reflects no partiality towards anybody. This is the answer to your question.

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#675319 Nov 22, 2013
Skombolis wrote:
<quoted text>
You are just like I remembered you!
The onus isn't on anyone
I don't care if you believe it. If you want to look more into it then that is up to you. You seem to be under the notion I care one way or the other if you accept that explanation
And it is really would be more of a historical footnote anyway because if you keep reading the verse you will see Jesus is not telling the man he can't be saved because it would be impossible because nothing with God is impossible
Ok, if you aren't interested in supporting your assertions, then why share them?

I'm "under the notion" that if you suggest a novel way of interpreting a verse that I and seemingly no one else here has ever heard, you should be prepared to back it up. I could tell you that jesus was really an alien, but that you have to figure that out for yourself, and it would make about as much sense.

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#675320 Nov 22, 2013
Skombolis wrote:
<quoted text>Of course the goal is to always be striving to be more like Christ
But like I said, Jesus cares more about the sacrifice and the willingness of heart and whether or not we are helping others and putting Christ first
The PARABLE of the widow and the two mites helps to illustrate that. If you are simply going to ignore everything that was said and all those verses that show the need for balance and what the message was and how one can't put material things above Christ and simply come right back to the beginning just to repeat the very same thing you started with, which was why don't you give away all your money, then what is the point of these exchanges?
It takes certain material things just to survive and to fulfill legal obligations and to take care of family. All things we are bibliclaly required to do. People could give more now for more rewards later. But it isn't required. And so long as money is not coming before God and we still help our brothers in need, then it is an individual choice each person will make as far as how much he gives away
If man could be perfect he wouldn't need a savior. But there is nothing sinful about having money unless we don't share it make it more important than Christ in our lives
That's one interpretation.

I'll go with the actual words your deity spoke though.

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#675321 Nov 22, 2013
Skombolis wrote:
<quoted text>I am not getting into one of these silly conversations about why free-will can't exist and coming from atheists who don't even believe that.
His will could be as simple as he wants man to have free-will and to make his own choices
Philippians 2:12-13
12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; 13 for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.
But this will be my only post about free will. I simply won't do it. How you can want to talk about it again when I guarantee you have talked about it ad nauseum already year after year on Topis is hard for me to understand.
I hear some atheists say religion was a scam created by those in power to manipulate and control people. It is used to keep people busy and distracted.
Yet year after year it is some of the same atheists spending untold hours rehashing the same religious debates on Topix. Don't you find some irony in that? That it has ended up controlling more time of a person who doesn't even believe it?
Well, even if you don't see it. This is my only post on free will
What are you blabbering on about? If you can't reconcile the logical contradictions inherent in the christian notion of free will under an omnipotent deity, just say you want to appeal to godmagic. That makes more sense and is more honest than insisting I have talked about it too much (it should be noted I have 1/5 of your post count).

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#675322 Nov 22, 2013
Skombolis wrote:
<quoted text>
Like I said, how do you know you REALLY exist or how do you know you aren't REALLY part of my dream and thought thoughts have been created by subconscious?
I simply don't see the point of such conversations. By their nature nothing can be resolved and I just find them silly.
If you don't believe you have the ability to think for yourself and that you aren't responsible for your own actions then I guess we can just agree to disagree since there is no way to prove it
It doesn't matter if free will can or cannot be proven to exist - it logically cannot if a deity exists who both knows every outcome and has the power to change everything.

Also, recent research is suggesting that we are not as in control as we might like to think. So yes, there is (or at least there eventually will be) a way to prove it. It's not all philosophical mumbo jumbo.

Since: Mar 09

Location hidden

#675323 Nov 22, 2013
timn17 wrote:
<quoted text>That's one interpretation.
I'll go with the actual words your deity spoke though.
Good for you, nice to see ya go with the words Christ spoke

I am too.

Since: Mar 09

Location hidden

#675324 Nov 22, 2013
timn17 wrote:
<quoted text>What are you blabbering on about? If you can't reconcile the logical contradictions inherent in the christian notion of free will under an omnipotent deity, just say you want to appeal to godmagic. That makes more sense and is more honest than insisting I have talked about it too much (it should be noted I have 1/5 of your post count).
Did you really think I was claiming your entire post count was talking about free-will with Christians?

Although I guarantee most your posts are talking to Christians about something. And considering I am a Christian, one would expect more of my posts to be on it. Yet I bet you as an atheist have a higher percentage than me. It is all you really talk about. At least any time I have ever seen you in any room.

So I am simply saying of the many, many, many debates you have had repeatedly with Christians over the years, this particular one that I personally have seen you in at least two other times, is one I am not going to engage you again on

If you can find another Christian to talk to about it AGAIN, more power to ya.

Since: Mar 09

Location hidden

#675325 Nov 22, 2013
timn17 wrote:
<quoted text>
I'm "under the notion" that if you suggest a novel way of interpreting a verse that I and seemingly no one else here has ever heard, you should be prepared to back it up.
That's because you are an atheist who spends a good portion of his life arguing with total strangers on the internet over their religious beliefs

I couldn't possible be concerned less with some stranger on the Internet thinks I have an obligation to back up. Nor do I feel the need to prove to some stranger why I think what I do. Especially when I have now demonstrated it isn't even particularly relevant what the arches were called because even if it was impossible for man to do, the message was with God nothing is impossible. So wasting time looking up proof of the arches would be just that, a waste of my time.

“e pluribus unum”

Since: Dec 10

primus inter pares

#675326 Nov 22, 2013
Skombolis wrote:
<quoted text>
That's because you are an atheist who spends a good portion of his life arguing with total strangers on the internet over their religious beliefs
I couldn't possible be concerned less with some stranger on the Internet thinks I have an obligation to back up. Nor do I feel the need to prove to some stranger why I think what I do. Especially when I have now demonstrated it isn't even particularly relevant what the arches were called because even if it was impossible for man to do, the message was with God nothing is impossible. So wasting time looking up proof of the arches would be just that, a waste of my time.
That you can't prove arches is the least concern, you can't prove Jebus said it ...or that there is a god either.
That leaves you with an imaginary messiah an imaginary god and a bullshit story.
thewordofme

Tucson, AZ

#675333 Nov 22, 2013
Skombolis wrote:
<quoted text>I am not getting into one of these silly conversations about why free-will can't exist and coming from atheists who don't even believe that.
His will could be as simple as he wants man to have free-will and to make his own choices
Philippians 2:12-13
12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; 13 for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.
But this will be my only post about free will. I simply won't do it. How you can want to talk about it again when I guarantee you have talked about it ad nauseum already year after year on Topis is hard for me to understand.
I hear some atheists say religion was a scam created by those in power to manipulate and control people. It is used to keep people busy and distracted.
Yet year after year it is some of the same atheists spending untold hours rehashing the same religious debates on Topix. Don't you find some irony in that? That it has ended up controlling more time of a person who doesn't even believe it?
Well, even if you don't see it. This is my only post on free will
“Everyone believes himself a priori to be perfectly free, even in his individual actions, and thinks that at every moment he can commence another manner of life.… But a posteriori, through experience, he finds to his astonishment that he is not free, but subjected to necessity, that in spite of all his resolutions and reflections he does not change his conduct, and that from the beginning of his life to the end of it, he must carry out the very character which he himself condemns….”-- Schopenhauer

“All people living on the Earth will worship [The Devil], except those whose names were written before the creation of the world in the book of the living which belongs to [Jesus].” Revelations 13:8

“[God] has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity,” 2 Timothy 1:9
 
“Praise be to [God], who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will-to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves.” Ephesians 1:4-6 NIV

Some of the best known Christians in history have taught there is no free will, including St. Augustine , Martin Luther, and John Calvin. The Christian Bible states in many places that God creates our future and decides our fates. It constantly denies that we have free will. If God knows exactly what will happen,(Being omnipotent and omniscient of course) the status of choices as free, is questionable.

And of course no one has yet come up with ANY proof of God....which is what this particular thread is about.

“Is that all you've got?”

Since: Jun 10

Location hidden

#675336 Nov 22, 2013
VIKING WARRIOR wrote:
I have OBVIOUSLY TAKEN OVER THIS THREAD!!!!!!!!!
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAH AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
You should try decaf in the PM hours.

Since: Sep 08

Rocky Ford, CO

#675340 Nov 23, 2013
http://www.santafenewmexican.com/news/health_...

"Although Siats is the third-largest carnivore found on the continent, this fossil is no Sue, the largely intact T. rex skeleton that presides over the Field’s central hall. Indeed, it takes imagination to turn the smattering of bones that rested earlier this week on a striped tablecloth in the museum’s back office into a predatory behemoth."

Think I read a long time ago how they reconstructed a big dinosaur from a toe bone or something. Aren't those guys amazing?

Momma Earth and the Cosmos must have loved dinosaurs to have provided such a nice environment for them all those millions and millions of years. Maybe staying dumb and not burning fossil fuels allowed that.

Yep, many tens of millions of years and the environment didn't change too radically. Took a meteor to kill them off. Yep.

“I see quantum effects”

Since: Jan 11

In the macro world.

#675341 Nov 23, 2013
DeAngelo of Memphis wrote:
Hey, recently astronomers have discovered a quasar with a redshift greater than the galaxy quite further in distance that is seen. Now since we understand that "redshift" is characterized by the color of light on the visible spectrum which indicates how far away and object is in space, it is baffling to scientists because it refutes the big bang model. But it can't be ignored. More observations are necessary but this ONE is enough to get astronomers scrambling to focus on more. My question is...does this discovery lend proof to the fact that scientific theory should stay THEORY and that the big bang theory is not yet FACT?!?
Did you know that the Andromeda galaxy is actually blue shifted?

It is racing TOWARDS the Milky Way at some 3000 miles per second.

And it doesn't refute the Big Bang theory in any way.

Since: Mar 09

Location hidden

#675343 Nov 23, 2013
thewordofme wrote:
<quoted text>
“Everyone believes himself a priori to be perfectly free, even in his individual actions, and thinks that at every moment he can commence another manner of life.… But a posteriori, through experience, he finds to his astonishment that he is not free, but subjected to necessity, that in spite of all his resolutions and reflections he does not change his conduct, and that from the beginning of his life to the end of it, he must carry out the very character which he himself condemns….”-- Schopenhauer
“All people living on the Earth will worship [The Devil], except those whose names were written before the creation of the world in the book of the living which belongs to [Jesus].” Revelations 13:8
“[God] has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity,” 2 Timothy 1:9
 
“Praise be to [God], who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will-to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves.” Ephesians 1:4-6 NIV
Some of the best known Christians in history have taught there is no free will, including St. Augustine , Martin Luther, and John Calvin. The Christian Bible states in many places that God creates our future and decides our fates. It constantly denies that we have free will. If God knows exactly what will happen,(Being omnipotent and omniscient of course) the status of choices as free, is questionable.
And of course no one has yet come up with ANY proof of God....which is what this particular thread is about.
And you think what could be gained be trying to prove there is a God or there is free will?

That was my only point. Not that someone couldn't question it. It is some pretty much the first question someone asks when they take psychology 101 or smokes their first joint. But to intentionally get into an exchange to argue about something that can't be proven? And exchange I have seen repeat itself on Topix over and over again? No thanks

But because this conversation drives me nuts that people say someone knowing the future means there is no free will, let me leave you with one thought on why that isn't the case. Someone can see across a timeline to know a future. They can see past, present, and future. So say God look one year into the future at November 23, 2014 to see what I chose to do that Sunday. Whatever he saw me do is because he moved to a place in time where that was happening in the present. All he did was observe. He did not control my actions. And just because someone can see into the future doesn't mean someone else gets to live the same day twice. You guys act like I was predestined to do what I did on November 23, 2014 because God looked into the future. But I am not predestined to do it. I can only live that day once, And God simply saw what I chose to do on that day.

Its not like someone looking into the future to see what I did November 23, 2014 means I get a second crack at the day and can live it twice. I only see that day one time and whatever i choose on that day, God can could see. If Gog exists and if God can see the future. And if we exist. And if we have free will.

It is so baffling to me this conversation keeps repeating itself. God knowing the future wouldn't negate free-will. And nobody can prove we have free-will. Nobody can even prove we exist for that matter. And yes Timothy says that is what God wants for us. It also says many are called and few are chosen and narrow is the gate. Just because He wants it for us doesn't mean he is going to force it to happen

Since: Jan 12

Memphis, TN

#675344 Nov 23, 2013
Aerobatty wrote:
<quoted text>
Did you know that the Andromeda galaxy is actually blue shifted?
It is racing TOWARDS the Milky Way at some 3000 miles per second.
And it doesn't refute the Big Bang theory in any way.
While the Andromeda galaxy is the closest to us, it wouldn't appear redshifted at all (on a great scale anyway) compared to galaxies moving away. And if Andromeda is moving towards us, it's lightwaves would be more compressed anyway from our relative position. It wouldn't refute the big bang at all.because there isn't anything strange about that. But this quasar that I mention is something to SERIOUSLY check into if were going forward with this big bang shit. This is the scenario...two objects deep in space are moving away from us. The redshift of the closer object suggests that it should be in fact the farther object if the model of our big bang is correct. And since the discovery around 2005 scientists have observed many more of these anomalies but refuse to publish many of the details of their findings. Maybe furthur observations are necessary or it's too much of a bombshell to make public being that this theory that has taken decades to perfect is due a major overhaul.

“e pluribus unum”

Since: Dec 10

primus inter pares

#675345 Nov 23, 2013
Skombolis wrote:
<quoted text>And you think what could be gained be trying to prove there is a God or there is free will?
That was my only point. Not that someone couldn't question it. It is some pretty much the first question someone asks when they take psychology 101 or smokes their first joint. But to intentionally get into an exchange to argue about something that can't be proven? And exchange I have seen repeat itself on Topix over and over again? No thanks
But because this conversation drives me nuts that people say someone knowing the future means there is no free will, let me leave you with one thought on why that isn't the case. Someone can see across a timeline to know a future. They can see past, present, and future. So say God look one year into the future at November 23, 2014 to see what I chose to do that Sunday. Whatever he saw me do is because he moved to a place in time where that was happening in the present. All he did was observe. He did not control my actions. And just because someone can see into the future doesn't mean someone else gets to live the same day twice. You guys act like I was predestined to do what I did on November 23, 2014 because God looked into the future. But I am not predestined to do it. I can only live that day once, And God simply saw what I chose to do on that day.
Its not like someone looking into the future to see what I did November 23, 2014 means I get a second crack at the day and can live it twice. I only see that day one time and whatever i choose on that day, God can could see. If Gog exists and if God can see the future. And if we exist. And if we have free will.
It is so baffling to me this conversation keeps repeating itself. God knowing the future wouldn't negate free-will. And nobody can prove we have free-will. Nobody can even prove we exist for that matter. And yes Timothy says that is what God wants for us. It also says many are called and few are chosen and narrow is the gate. Just because He wants it for us doesn't mean he is going to force it to happen
There would be no such thing because knowing the past present and future,and being the alpha omega. All things are determined from the start, all outcomes have already been determined and the flow of time meaningless to such a being. You can trifle with this fact all you like, it doesn't change that free will becomes non existent
when the outcome has been determined before it happened.
All things to a all powerful being simply become the outcome it chose, or it could use its power to change it. So you see just how ridiculous the notion of your god is? It doesn't exist like you think. If there is a god,,,it is nothing like what was written in the bible.

“I never claimed to be Perfect”

Since: Nov 10

just better than yesterday

#675348 Nov 23, 2013
Aura Mytha wrote:
<quoted text>
There would be no such thing because knowing the past present and future,and being the alpha omega. All things are determined from the start, all outcomes have already been determined and the flow of time meaningless to such a being. You can trifle with this fact all you like, it doesn't change that free will becomes non existent
when the outcome has been determined before it happened.
All things to a all powerful being simply become the outcome it chose, or it could use its power to change it. So you see just how ridiculous the notion of your god is? It doesn't exist like you think. If there is a god,,,it is nothing like what was written in the bible.
What is free will?

Could it be that two people, under the same circumstances choosing to do different things?

Could it be one person, under the same conditions doing any of several things?

I just wonder if an all powerful God doesn't just know of a single outcome but of a range of multiple outcomes for a person or situation with all outcomes being valid.

What if he knows but still allows you to pick your choice among many choices? When a person makes a choice, they might review multiple options, but the choice they eventually make is due to who they are based on their personality, values and thoughts.

So what if God knowing the outcome still allows us to form our own values and thoughts? Who said the future is set in stone?

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#675350 Nov 23, 2013
Skombolis wrote:
<quoted text> Did you really think I was claiming your entire post count was talking about free-will with Christians?
Although I guarantee most your posts are talking to Christians about something. And considering I am a Christian, one would expect more of my posts to be on it. Yet I bet you as an atheist have a higher percentage than me. It is all you really talk about. At least any time I have ever seen you in any room.
So I am simply saying of the many, many, many debates you have had repeatedly with Christians over the years, this particular one that I personally have seen you in at least two other times, is one I am not going to engage you again on
If you can find another Christian to talk to about it AGAIN, more power to ya.
What a surprise, I talk about religion in a "prove there's a god" thread. This is going to blow your mind - if more muslims were here, that's what I'd be talking about. Religious people serve as foils, I don't have any particular preference.

“e pluribus unum”

Since: Dec 10

primus inter pares

#675351 Nov 23, 2013
Subliminal Criminal wrote:
<quoted text>
God is like string theory, can't prove either but both are possible.
I don't see you atheists complaining about string theory.
Hypocrite atheists.
God is not a theory, it is a belief.
It is admitted from the start string theory maybe completely wrong, and it is no more than a hypothesis. We search for evidence it is true. Not so with your god, which you have already assumed to exist.
Indeed to calculate it, as it it is so.

In your previous post you say the Indians slaughtered themselves, because they didn't colonize the land. But they did colonize the land, they did not unite together as one tribe, but that makes it no less a theft or a murder that they were conquered for their land. But you suppose god made it ok .

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#675352 Nov 23, 2013
Skombolis wrote:
<quoted text>
That's because you are an atheist who spends a good portion of his life arguing with total strangers on the internet over their religious beliefs
I couldn't possible be concerned less with some stranger on the Internet thinks I have an obligation to back up. Nor do I feel the need to prove to some stranger why I think what I do. Especially when I have now demonstrated it isn't even particularly relevant what the arches were called because even if it was impossible for man to do, the message was with God nothing is impossible. So wasting time looking up proof of the arches would be just that, a waste of my time.
You're just being silly. For one, you make a claim you can't back up, then try to shift the burden of proof for your claim on to me, and then you try to distract from your baseless claim after you're called out. If you don't think you have an obligation to support your claims, don't share them in a debate. Very simple. Share them with people who won't question them and will thank you for reinforcing their beliefs with muck. You won't have to look too far.

And then you insinuate that I spend too much time on here? Again, you have 5 times my post count. I don't even know why you feel this is relevant, both of us are free to spend our free time how we like.

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