Prove there's a god.

Since: Mar 09

Location hidden

#675309 Nov 22, 2013
timn17 wrote:
<quoted text>Let's assume that being rich and being saved are not mutually exclusive. It it not clear what jesus prefers, and what he considers more conducive towards spiritual fulfillment?
Why should you not behave as your deity likes? Why should you choose the exception to the rule as the model for your life as opposed to what jesus says is best? Why is the story of the widow in the bible if god doesn't want you to live by her example and give everything?
Of course the goal is to always be striving to be more like Christ

But like I said, Jesus cares more about the sacrifice and the willingness of heart and whether or not we are helping others and putting Christ first

The PARABLE of the widow and the two mites helps to illustrate that. If you are simply going to ignore everything that was said and all those verses that show the need for balance and what the message was and how one can't put material things above Christ and simply come right back to the beginning just to repeat the very same thing you started with, which was why don't you give away all your money, then what is the point of these exchanges?

It takes certain material things just to survive and to fulfill legal obligations and to take care of family. All things we are bibliclaly required to do. People could give more now for more rewards later. But it isn't required. And so long as money is not coming before God and we still help our brothers in need, then it is an individual choice each person will make as far as how much he gives away

If man could be perfect he wouldn't need a savior. But there is nothing sinful about having money unless we don't share it make it more important than Christ in our lives

“Get it right”

Since: Nov 10

Location hidden

#675310 Nov 22, 2013
Catcher1 wrote:
<quoted text>
Sorry.
I meant to suggest that perhaps this Satan fellow may be responsible for bad things happening.
Some "Christian" posters here actually believe there is a Satan at work.
Ah, got it now.

Catcher1

Since: Sep 10

Redondo Beach, CA

#675311 Nov 22, 2013
chance47 wrote:
<quoted text>
I will bite, what is that?
No gods.

Since: Mar 09

Location hidden

#675312 Nov 22, 2013
timn17 wrote:
<quoted text>Choice is not possible in a world governed by an omnipresent, omnipotent deity. Everything that happens is necessarily according to his will, regardless of whatever guilt inducing tripe you hear from preachers.
I am not getting into one of these silly conversations about why free-will can't exist and coming from atheists who don't even believe that.

His will could be as simple as he wants man to have free-will and to make his own choices

Philippians 2:12-13
12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; 13 for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.

But this will be my only post about free will. I simply won't do it. How you can want to talk about it again when I guarantee you have talked about it ad nauseum already year after year on Topis is hard for me to understand.

I hear some atheists say religion was a scam created by those in power to manipulate and control people. It is used to keep people busy and distracted.

Yet year after year it is some of the same atheists spending untold hours rehashing the same religious debates on Topix. Don't you find some irony in that? That it has ended up controlling more time of a person who doesn't even believe it?

Well, even if you don't see it. This is my only post on free will

“Get it right”

Since: Nov 10

Location hidden

#675313 Nov 22, 2013
Dave Nelson wrote:
<quoted text>
You are lumping 2 and 3 together...
I combined them because the follow up is the same for both.
Dave Nelson wrote:
<quoted text>
...And in 3 you say impartial enough to allow, but left out something important. For what purpose would the "impartial" be for?
Perhaps looking for the final product?
You wind them up, let them do their thing, then they run through QA. You keep the ones that work for your purpose..
I wouldn't speculate on a godly purpose for imaprtiality.

But, if god at the same time both doesn't want to prevent sin and he doesn't want to force people to sin, then the only option left is that he is impartial.

And frankly, if he doesn't care... why should anyone else? That was the point of 3).

Since: Mar 09

Location hidden

#675314 Nov 22, 2013
chance47 wrote:
<quoted text>
How exactly do you know it isn't an illusion of choice?
<quoted text>
Of course he would be absolutely share responsibility every time. In every legal system if you allow someone to break the law and you could have easily prevented it you are culpable.
<quoted text>
Why doesn't god ask your forgiveness for creating options that were immoral, letting you be tempted and finally for letting you sin?
How do you know you even exist or aren't part of my dream or this universe isn't the head of a pin on a bigger pin in a coffee cup?

I mean psychology 101 is fun and all but there is no point in debating anything if someone wants to deny even the ability to think for themselves or look for some way to claim people aren't responsible for their own actions

And not preventing someone from committing a crime doesn't make someone guilty if they do. That is just silly. By that logic it would be justifiable to lock every person up at night so they can't commit crimes.

And some things are trade-offs. We accept there will be crime because we have rights. If we had every citizen under armed guard 24/7 we could reduce crime but there is a trade-off for what is more important

Could God take over man's mind so he won't sin? Sure. But there are tradeoffs. What would life be if we were pre-programmed robots? I believe we are put on this earth for a reason and to seek out our destiny and fate. But regardless of the reason, someone else is not responsible for our actions. That is just as basic as it gets

“Get it right”

Since: Nov 10

Location hidden

#675315 Nov 22, 2013
Skombolis wrote:
<quoted text>How do you know you even exist or aren't part of my dream or this universe isn't the head of a pin on a bigger pin in a coffee cup?
I mean psychology 101 is fun and all but there is no point in debating anything if someone wants to deny even the ability to think for themselves or look for some way to claim people aren't responsible for their own actions
...
the difference is that you're not asking 'what if' typoe questions. You are stating that god does indeed give man free will and choices as if you know the mind of god somehow.

Asking you how you know this is not a petty rhetorical question. Trying to dismiss it as such is simply avoidance.

So,*serious question alert* how do you know that what you think is free choice is not merely the appearance/ illustion of such?
Or,(even if we pretend you could NEVER be tricked by a powerful god that way),
...how do you know you REALLY have free will?

“Get it right”

Since: Nov 10

Location hidden

#675316 Nov 22, 2013
Good night.

Since: Mar 09

Location hidden

#675317 Nov 22, 2013
chance47 wrote:
<quoted text>
the difference is that you're not asking 'what if' typoe questions. You are stating that god does indeed give man free will and choices as if you know the mind of god somehow.
Asking you how you know this is not a petty rhetorical question. Trying to dismiss it as such is simply avoidance.
So,*serious question alert* how do you know that what you think is free choice is not merely the appearance/ illustion of such?
Or,(even if we pretend you could NEVER be tricked by a powerful god that way),
...how do you know you REALLY have free will?
Like I said, how do you know you REALLY exist or how do you know you aren't REALLY part of my dream and thought thoughts have been created by subconscious?

I simply don't see the point of such conversations. By their nature nothing can be resolved and I just find them silly.

If you don't believe you have the ability to think for yourself and that you aren't responsible for your own actions then I guess we can just agree to disagree since there is no way to prove it

Since: Jul 10

Location hidden

#675318 Nov 22, 2013
chance47 wrote:
<quoted text>
If god truly didn't want people to sin, then his will would prevent it.
So, the fact that people sin must imply either 1) god is incapable of preventing it or 2) god wants people to sin, or 3) god is impartial enough to allow people to sin.
In the case of 1) the challenge is whether or not humanity should revere such a god.
In both cases 2) and 3) the question is why poeple should ask to be forgiven at all.
Freewill allows a person to show God and himself on what kind of person he really is, meaning is he a man who loves God and tries diligently not to sin or is he a man who has no desire to do God's will as he loves this world and everything in it. This is the only way God can judge us by using freewill and sin to see whether or not you love God or you love this world more, it's all up to you. God is pure love and being such he can only judge in such a way that reflects no partiality towards anybody. This is the answer to your question.

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#675319 Nov 22, 2013
Skombolis wrote:
<quoted text>
You are just like I remembered you!
The onus isn't on anyone
I don't care if you believe it. If you want to look more into it then that is up to you. You seem to be under the notion I care one way or the other if you accept that explanation
And it is really would be more of a historical footnote anyway because if you keep reading the verse you will see Jesus is not telling the man he can't be saved because it would be impossible because nothing with God is impossible
Ok, if you aren't interested in supporting your assertions, then why share them?

I'm "under the notion" that if you suggest a novel way of interpreting a verse that I and seemingly no one else here has ever heard, you should be prepared to back it up. I could tell you that jesus was really an alien, but that you have to figure that out for yourself, and it would make about as much sense.

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#675320 Nov 22, 2013
Skombolis wrote:
<quoted text>Of course the goal is to always be striving to be more like Christ
But like I said, Jesus cares more about the sacrifice and the willingness of heart and whether or not we are helping others and putting Christ first
The PARABLE of the widow and the two mites helps to illustrate that. If you are simply going to ignore everything that was said and all those verses that show the need for balance and what the message was and how one can't put material things above Christ and simply come right back to the beginning just to repeat the very same thing you started with, which was why don't you give away all your money, then what is the point of these exchanges?
It takes certain material things just to survive and to fulfill legal obligations and to take care of family. All things we are bibliclaly required to do. People could give more now for more rewards later. But it isn't required. And so long as money is not coming before God and we still help our brothers in need, then it is an individual choice each person will make as far as how much he gives away
If man could be perfect he wouldn't need a savior. But there is nothing sinful about having money unless we don't share it make it more important than Christ in our lives
That's one interpretation.

I'll go with the actual words your deity spoke though.

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#675321 Nov 22, 2013
Skombolis wrote:
<quoted text>I am not getting into one of these silly conversations about why free-will can't exist and coming from atheists who don't even believe that.
His will could be as simple as he wants man to have free-will and to make his own choices
Philippians 2:12-13
12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; 13 for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.
But this will be my only post about free will. I simply won't do it. How you can want to talk about it again when I guarantee you have talked about it ad nauseum already year after year on Topis is hard for me to understand.
I hear some atheists say religion was a scam created by those in power to manipulate and control people. It is used to keep people busy and distracted.
Yet year after year it is some of the same atheists spending untold hours rehashing the same religious debates on Topix. Don't you find some irony in that? That it has ended up controlling more time of a person who doesn't even believe it?
Well, even if you don't see it. This is my only post on free will
What are you blabbering on about? If you can't reconcile the logical contradictions inherent in the christian notion of free will under an omnipotent deity, just say you want to appeal to godmagic. That makes more sense and is more honest than insisting I have talked about it too much (it should be noted I have 1/5 of your post count).

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#675322 Nov 22, 2013
Skombolis wrote:
<quoted text>
Like I said, how do you know you REALLY exist or how do you know you aren't REALLY part of my dream and thought thoughts have been created by subconscious?
I simply don't see the point of such conversations. By their nature nothing can be resolved and I just find them silly.
If you don't believe you have the ability to think for yourself and that you aren't responsible for your own actions then I guess we can just agree to disagree since there is no way to prove it
It doesn't matter if free will can or cannot be proven to exist - it logically cannot if a deity exists who both knows every outcome and has the power to change everything.

Also, recent research is suggesting that we are not as in control as we might like to think. So yes, there is (or at least there eventually will be) a way to prove it. It's not all philosophical mumbo jumbo.

Since: Mar 09

Location hidden

#675323 Nov 22, 2013
timn17 wrote:
<quoted text>That's one interpretation.
I'll go with the actual words your deity spoke though.
Good for you, nice to see ya go with the words Christ spoke

I am too.

Since: Mar 09

Location hidden

#675324 Nov 22, 2013
timn17 wrote:
<quoted text>What are you blabbering on about? If you can't reconcile the logical contradictions inherent in the christian notion of free will under an omnipotent deity, just say you want to appeal to godmagic. That makes more sense and is more honest than insisting I have talked about it too much (it should be noted I have 1/5 of your post count).
Did you really think I was claiming your entire post count was talking about free-will with Christians?

Although I guarantee most your posts are talking to Christians about something. And considering I am a Christian, one would expect more of my posts to be on it. Yet I bet you as an atheist have a higher percentage than me. It is all you really talk about. At least any time I have ever seen you in any room.

So I am simply saying of the many, many, many debates you have had repeatedly with Christians over the years, this particular one that I personally have seen you in at least two other times, is one I am not going to engage you again on

If you can find another Christian to talk to about it AGAIN, more power to ya.

Since: Mar 09

Location hidden

#675325 Nov 22, 2013
timn17 wrote:
<quoted text>
I'm "under the notion" that if you suggest a novel way of interpreting a verse that I and seemingly no one else here has ever heard, you should be prepared to back it up.
That's because you are an atheist who spends a good portion of his life arguing with total strangers on the internet over their religious beliefs

I couldn't possible be concerned less with some stranger on the Internet thinks I have an obligation to back up. Nor do I feel the need to prove to some stranger why I think what I do. Especially when I have now demonstrated it isn't even particularly relevant what the arches were called because even if it was impossible for man to do, the message was with God nothing is impossible. So wasting time looking up proof of the arches would be just that, a waste of my time.

“ad victoriam”

Since: Dec 10

arte et marte

#675326 Nov 22, 2013
Skombolis wrote:
<quoted text>
That's because you are an atheist who spends a good portion of his life arguing with total strangers on the internet over their religious beliefs
I couldn't possible be concerned less with some stranger on the Internet thinks I have an obligation to back up. Nor do I feel the need to prove to some stranger why I think what I do. Especially when I have now demonstrated it isn't even particularly relevant what the arches were called because even if it was impossible for man to do, the message was with God nothing is impossible. So wasting time looking up proof of the arches would be just that, a waste of my time.
That you can't prove arches is the least concern, you can't prove Jebus said it ...or that there is a god either.
That leaves you with an imaginary messiah an imaginary god and a bullshit story.
thewordofme

Tucson, AZ

#675333 Nov 22, 2013
Skombolis wrote:
<quoted text>I am not getting into one of these silly conversations about why free-will can't exist and coming from atheists who don't even believe that.
His will could be as simple as he wants man to have free-will and to make his own choices
Philippians 2:12-13
12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; 13 for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.
But this will be my only post about free will. I simply won't do it. How you can want to talk about it again when I guarantee you have talked about it ad nauseum already year after year on Topis is hard for me to understand.
I hear some atheists say religion was a scam created by those in power to manipulate and control people. It is used to keep people busy and distracted.
Yet year after year it is some of the same atheists spending untold hours rehashing the same religious debates on Topix. Don't you find some irony in that? That it has ended up controlling more time of a person who doesn't even believe it?
Well, even if you don't see it. This is my only post on free will
“Everyone believes himself a priori to be perfectly free, even in his individual actions, and thinks that at every moment he can commence another manner of life.… But a posteriori, through experience, he finds to his astonishment that he is not free, but subjected to necessity, that in spite of all his resolutions and reflections he does not change his conduct, and that from the beginning of his life to the end of it, he must carry out the very character which he himself condemns….”-- Schopenhauer

“All people living on the Earth will worship [The Devil], except those whose names were written before the creation of the world in the book of the living which belongs to [Jesus].” Revelations 13:8

“[God] has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity,” 2 Timothy 1:9
 
“Praise be to [God], who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will-to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves.” Ephesians 1:4-6 NIV

Some of the best known Christians in history have taught there is no free will, including St. Augustine , Martin Luther, and John Calvin. The Christian Bible states in many places that God creates our future and decides our fates. It constantly denies that we have free will. If God knows exactly what will happen,(Being omnipotent and omniscient of course) the status of choices as free, is questionable.

And of course no one has yet come up with ANY proof of God....which is what this particular thread is about.

“Is that all you've got?”

Since: Jun 10

Location hidden

#675336 Nov 22, 2013
VIKING WARRIOR wrote:
I have OBVIOUSLY TAKEN OVER THIS THREAD!!!!!!!!!
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAH AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
You should try decaf in the PM hours.

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