Prove there's a god.

“ad victoriam”

Since: Dec 10

arte et marte

#637964 Jul 8, 2013
Truth signed in wrote:
<quoted text>
What do you think of this...and I'm not saying it's accurate...as I have no clue...but it's interesting.
In 1987, a team at the University of California at Berkeley published a study comparing the mtDNA of 147 people from five of the world’s geographic locations.2 They concluded that all 147 had the same female ancestor. She is now called “the mitochondrial Eve.”
From a biblical perspective, do we know where Eve lived? Because the flood was so destructive, no one knows where the Garden of Eden was.4 However, Noah’s three daughters-in-law, who lived only a dozen or so generations after Eve, began raising their families near Mount Ararat in eastern Turkey—very near the common boundary of Asia, Africa, and Europe.(Each of us can claim one of Noah’s daughters-in-law as our ever-so-great grandmother.) So it is not surprising that Asia, Africa, and Europe are candidate homes for mitochondrial Eve.
Likewise, when similar words, sounds, and grammar of the world’s most widely spoken languages are traced back in time, they also seem to originate near Ararat.5 Another convergence near eastern Turkey is found when one traces agriculture back in time.6
When did mitochondrial Eve live? To answer this, one must know how frequently mutations occur in mtDNA. Initial estimates were based on the following faulty reasoning:“Humans and chimpanzees had a common ancestor about 5 million years ago. Because the mtDNA in humans and chimpanzees differ in 1,000 places, one mutation occurs about every 10,000 years.” Another erroneous approach began by assuming that Australia was first populated 40,000 years ago. The average number of mitochondrial mutations among Australian aborigines divided by 40,000 years provided another extremely slow mutation rate for mtDNA. These estimated rates, based on evolution, led to the mistaken belief that mitochondrial Eve lived 100,000–200,000 years ago.8 This surprised evolutionists who believe that our common ancestor was an apelike creature that lived 31/2 million years ago.9
A greater surprise, even disbelief, occurred in 1997, when it was announced that mutations in mtDNA occur 20 times more rapidly than had been estimated. Without assuming that humans and chimpanzees had a common ancestor 5 million years ago or that Australia was populated 40,000 years ago, mutation rates can now be determined directly by comparing the mtDNA of many mother-child pairs. Using the new, more accurate rate, mitochondrial Eve lived only about 6,500 years ago.10
Is there a “genetic Adam”? A man receives from his father a segment of DNA which lies on the Y chromosome; this makes him a male. Where did your father receive his segment? From his father. If we all descended from one man, all males should have the same Y chromosome segment—except for rare mutations.
A 1995 study of a worldwide sample of 38 men showed no changes in this segment of the Y chromosome that is always inherited from fathers. Had humans evolved and all men descended from one male who lived 500,000 years ago, each should carry about 19 mutations. Had he lived 150,000 years ago, 5.5 mutations would be expected.11 Because no changes were found, our common father probably lived only thousands of years ago. While Adam was father of all, our most recent common male ancestor was Noah.
This is deplorably laughable. For one to accept what you have written here, you will have to accept the framework theory of the evolution of man and accept Eve was a evolutionary descendant of the hominids and another species human as well as the status on the tree of life as a hominini. Next you are putting a definitive date for the flood and giving us a testable criteria to falsify your hypothesis and the flood. Are you sure you want to go there?

“A sentient umbrella speaks”

Since: Mar 11

Some stable somewhere

#637965 Jul 8, 2013
Dave Nelson wrote:
<quoted text>
The odd part about an educated and knowledgeable woman such as yourself making such a statement in that last paragraph is your taking such words as literal as a fundamentalist would and applying it to a whole group. It is obvious to most intelligent people that story is metaphorical, and has been for many years long before modern "scientific study".
You seem to expect others should see and believe in your developed logic of how existence developed. In spite of the fact that logic keeps changing as more info comes in and therefore different perspectives develop within the field of study, some of which will be contrary to your hide bound views.
I'm not saying you are being hypocritical, just maybe a little confused about what you do know and how you know it. Sprinkled with a lot of ego.
I wasn't actually speaking to all Christians, but just RR. My "you" was specific and not in general.

I would guess that most of what I know, especially in developmental biology and neuroscience, will be nearly obsolete in 10 years.

Since: Sep 08

Westcliffe, CO

#637966 Jul 8, 2013
True Truth wrote:
<quoted text>
Dave was lumping us up and talking about all Muslims throughout the world. I responded as such to him.
There are no Pakistani radicals. There are Afghan radicals in Pakistan. They are the Taliban and they were driven into west Pakistan by the U.S.. Now their oppression has spread to Pakistan. They are killing Pakistani Shias and Sufis, and any Pakistani woman who wants an education.
God help us if they ever cripple the Pakistani army and get hold of their nuclear weapons. They'll probably launch them all just for the fun of it.
If there were no Pakistani radicals there would be no Afghan, Saudi, or Muslim radicals from other countries allowed to live there. Plus the terrorism in India done by Pakistani based Muslim extremists on the Hindus.

“Listen to the sounds”

Since: Feb 09

of your own extinction......

#637968 Jul 8, 2013
Double Fine wrote:
<quoted text>
No, you misunderstand my question. I say YOU find an arrowhead. You carbon date it, only to find that bo carbon is present, meaning the artifact is older than 60,000 years. Now you use noter dating technique (truth be told, I dont know what they test the 100k year range with. I know with dinosaurs they use Strontium or Uraniu-Lead, but that is a lot further back) and find it roughly 120,000 years old.
So you have that. A sharpened arrowhead. A date of 120k years. What conclusions do you draw?
Dude, if you have two hours to spare, you have to watch this!



It has some evangelical preaching here and there, but it's very interesting to see the way they think and the evidence they claim to have. If it is real evidence, then some of it can really shake up a lot of evolution claims.

“First it steals your mind..”

Since: Jun 11

..and then it steals your soul

#637969 Jul 8, 2013
Truth signed in wrote:
<quoted text>
What do you think of this...and I'm not saying it's accurate...as I have no clue...but it's interesting.
In 1987, a team at the University of California at Berkeley published a study comparing the mtDNA of 147 people from five of the world’s geographic locations.2 They concluded that all 147 had the same female ancestor. She is now called “the mitochondrial Eve.”
From a biblical perspective, do we know where Eve lived? Because the flood was so destructive, However, Noah’s three daughters-in-law, who lived only a dozen or and Europe.(Each of us can claim one of Noah’s daughters-in-law as our ever-so-great grandmother.) So it is not surprising that Asia, griculture back in time.6
When did mitochondrial Eve live? To answer this, one must know how frequently mutations occur in mtDNA. Initial estimates were based on the following faulty reasoning:“Humans and chimpanzees had a common ancestor about 5 million years ago. Because the mtDNA in humans and chimpanzees differ in 1,000 places, one mutation occurs about at s provided another extremely slow mutation rate for mtDNA. These estimated rates, based on evolution, led to the mistaken belief illion years ago.9
A greater surprise, even disbelief, occurred in 1997, when it was announced that mutations in mtDNA occur 20 times more rapidly than had been estimated. Without assuming that humans and chimpanzees had a common ancestor 5 million years ago or that Australia was populated 40,000 years ago, mutation rates can now be determined directly by comparing the mtDNA of many mother-child pairs. Using the new, more accurate rate, mitochondrial Eve lived only about 6,500 years ago.10
Is there a “genetic Adam”? A man receives from his father a segment of DNA which lies on the Y chromosome; this makes him a male. Where did your father receive his segment? From his father. If we all descended from one man, all males should have the same Y chromosome segment—except for rare mutations.
A 1995 study of a worldwide sample of 38 men showed no changes in this segment of the Y chromosome that is always inherited from fathers. Had humans evolved and all men descended from one male who lived 500,000 years ago, each should carry about 19 mutations. Had he lived 150,000 years ago, 5.5 mutations would be expected.11 Because no changes were found, our common father probably lived only thousands of years ago. While Adam was father of all, our most recent common male ancestor was Noah.
An argument that has been refuted.

I am unable to post a link. You said earlier in the day that you are happy to use Wikipedia, so google the Wiki link to 'mitochondrial Eve'. Read the article, and then follow the links below.

TSI, Creationists and people who propagate Creationism are not scientists. They knowingly and wittingly lie to people like you, because they feel (and they are often right), that you would not fact check the information given.
I have heard all sorts of wacky claims. Kent Hovind said, without dropping a beat, that the geologic column is a lie. Such lies work against scientists, because it makes the Christian world prone to believe the crap they spew.
I am glad you put this forth to Hiding, and she will be able to refute it, out of hand.

Please, be skeptical when hearing abojt anything a Creationist claims. There are cases of them testifying in court where they rigged experiments (Michael Behe, Kitzmiller vs Dover School Distric. They are bottom of the barrel human beings whose only purpose is to lie and deceive.

Do not drink the cool aid

“First it steals your mind..”

Since: Jun 11

..and then it steals your soul

#637970 Jul 8, 2013
True Truth wrote:
<quoted text>
Dude, if you have two hours to spare, you have to watch this!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v =Q8DDIe_2cHMXX
It has some evangelical preaching here and there, but it's very interesting to see the way they think and the evidence they claim to have. If it is real evidence, then some of it can really shake up a lot of evolution claims.
Will take a look, amigo.

I can already guess the evidence. Does it involve giant humans? Dinosaurs spotted in Africa, etc?

They will be interested to know that I have definite proof of the Mysterious Cheesy Weasel, too! I have a skeleton of a 40 foot tall weasel, in my closet. I have not let any palaeontologist see it, because those evolutionist heretics will destroy the evidence! But the evidence is real!

Since: Sep 08

Westcliffe, CO

#637971 Jul 8, 2013
Hidingfromyou wrote:
<quoted text>
I wasn't actually speaking to all Christians, but just RR. My "you" was specific and not in general.
I would guess that most of what I know, especially in developmental biology and neuroscience, will be nearly obsolete in 10 years.
RR has expressed a less than literal interpretation many times.

If one is a true scientist they reserve judgments on all causations until all the facts are in. Jumping the gun is a sign of subjectivity.

One's training shapes the model one makes of this existence. Mine is shaded by the transfer of energies as is utilized by electricity. I was very good at making connections and using such, but I didn't truly understand it. They were essentially just blocks of info I learned to connect. But then one day I was exposed to a different perspective, which was much simpler to understand. Was just basic bipolarity and motion. From there a better understanding of what was happening developed. It went from knowing various laws and procedures to understanding how they came about. Still don't have the answers to the universe, but have a better picture of how it is put together and works without all of the esoteric stuff clouding the picture.

We all get buried in the bullshit and details of learning. Tons and tons of details your mind has to juggle that prohibit a simpler perspective of the overall system, which can allow a more direct analysis of what really is and ain't.

“I speak my mind”

Since: Sep 10

It hurts to bite my tongue

#637972 Jul 8, 2013
True Truth wrote:
<quoted text>
Dave was lumping us up and talking about all Muslims throughout the world. I responded as such to him.
There are no Pakistani radicals. There are Afghan radicals in Pakistan. They are the Taliban and they were driven into west Pakistan by the U.S.. Now their oppression has spread to Pakistan. They are killing Pakistani Shias and Sufis, and any Pakistani woman who wants an education.
God help us if they ever cripple the Pakistani army and get hold of their nuclear weapons. They'll probably launch them all just for the fun of it.
LOL...Wow! Really you think that if we had known the Taliban was going to move into Pakistan they would have ever made it there? I can tell you with 100% certainty, that had we known their plans to flee into the caves of Pakistan...we would have stopped them. I find it amazing that you place that blame on us. And even more appalling that you seem to think since they are killing Pakistani Shias and Sunis, it is our fault. They are terrorist...what don't you comprehend about that? They terrorized America and they are terrorizing Pakistan and multiple other nations. Your post suggests we purposely drove them into Pakistan. Don't you find it the least bit curious that they knew about the caves in Pakistan? Has it not occurred to you at all that perhaps there already Taliban terrorists in Pakistan preparing them a hide out? For Pete's sake...are you that brainwashed that you can't see the obvious?

Yes, God help us all if they get their hands on the nuclear weapons...You should be thankful that we are trying with every dime, person, and bit of knowledge we have to try and prevent that. Instead you blame us instead of the real culprit...the Taliban. Shame on you for biting your nose off to spite your own face!

“I speak my mind”

Since: Sep 10

It hurts to bite my tongue

#637973 Jul 8, 2013
Double Fine wrote:
<quoted text>
An argument that has been refuted.
I am unable to post a link. You said earlier in the day that you are happy to use Wikipedia, so google the Wiki link to 'mitochondrial Eve'. Read the article, and then follow the links below.
TSI, Creationists and people who propagate Creationism are not scientists. They knowingly and wittingly lie to people like you, because they feel (and they are often right), that you would not fact check the information given.
I have heard all sorts of wacky claims. Kent Hovind said, without dropping a beat, that the geologic column is a lie. Such lies work against scientists, because it makes the Christian world prone to believe the crap they spew.
I am glad you put this forth to Hiding, and she will be able to refute it, out of hand.
Please, be skeptical when hearing abojt anything a Creationist claims. There are cases of them testifying in court where they rigged experiments (Michael Behe, Kitzmiller vs Dover School Distric. They are bottom of the barrel human beings whose only purpose is to lie and deceive.
Do not drink the cool aid
Thanks! Don't worry...I never drink the Kool aid...I question everything. Like I said, I wasn't saying it was accurate, just interesting. Be rest assured, I do my homework.:)

“A sentient umbrella speaks”

Since: Mar 11

Some stable somewhere

#637974 Jul 8, 2013
Truth signed in wrote:
What do you think of this...and I'm not saying it's accurate...as I have no clue...but it's interesting.
Well, first off, you got that from a creationist site, so clearly they aren't a scientific source. Second, they get the science wrong - probably on purpose.
In 1987, a team at the University of California at Berkeley published a study comparing the mtDNA of 147 people from five of the world’s geographic locations.2 They concluded that all 147 had the same female ancestor.
It's a bit misleading to write it that way. They concluded that the women can trace their mitochondria back to one woman. So, yes, that bit of non-nuclear genetics ties them back. However, their other genes are not from "mitochondrial eve," but from all the sexual reproduction along the way.

You're 50% each parent,(up to) 25% each grandparent (plus your own mutations). Great grandparents get reduced even more - each generation decreases that percentage by half. And this is all b/c of sexual reproduction. So the percentage of your genes that you can trace directly back to your distant relatives is quite small - another way of saying this is that in the distant past, a lot of people are your ancestors.

Mitochondrial Eve certainly existed, but she lived with a group of other people. It was not just one women, but a whole bunch.
From a biblical perspective, do we know where Eve lived? Because the flood was so destructive, no one knows where the Garden of Eden was.4 However, Noah’s three daughters-in-law, who lived only a dozen or so generations after Eve, began raising their families near Mount Ararat in eastern Turkey—very near the common boundary of Asia, Africa, and Europe.
It's nice that they admit they've moved into mythology here.
Likewise, when similar words, sounds, and grammar of the world’s most widely spoken languages are traced back in time, they also seem to originate near Ararat.
This bit is grossly simplified. There are multiple language families that are not related to each other.
Initial estimates were based on the following faulty reasoning:“Humans and chimpanzees had a common ancestor about 5 million years ago. Because the mtDNA in humans and chimpanzees differ in 1,000 places, one mutation occurs about every 10,000 years.”
The article is close to correct here - the research was flawed for a no. of scientific reasons, one of which was that their estimation of the mutation rates in mtDNA was wrong. It was based on a separation from Pan at 5 mya. That's false; our best estimates place that at at ~6.3 mya.

However, the research was also flawed b/c the half-life of mtDNA information is 125000 years. So anything over 125kya is not estimable using mtDNA.

The study was heavily critiqued in science.
Another erroneous approach began by assuming that Australia was first populated 40,000 years ago.
AUS was populated about 40kya. The above info is incorrect.
This surprised evolutionists who believe that our common ancestor was an apelike creature that lived 31/2 million years ago.
False. The research was heavily critiqued for its weak points.
mutation rates can now be determined directly by comparing the mtDNA of many mother-child pairs. Using the new, more accurate rate, mitochondrial Eve lived only about 6,500 years ago.
The above is quote-mining. Not surprisingly, the creation site you went to ignored all information in that paper and only took what they wanted. The following sentence is "No one thinks that's the case."

http://www.dnai.org/teacherguide/pdf/referenc...

I ran out of room - the Adam stuff they wrote about was likewise pure nonsense; they just made up the data to support their religious beliefs.

That's the danger of dogma - it corrupts science to fit mythology. In science, we critique our work, find the problems, and move forward.
youtube

AOL

#637975 Jul 8, 2013
.

100% PROOF Pope Francis is ANTICHRIST______



.

“A sentient umbrella speaks”

Since: Mar 11

Some stable somewhere

#637976 Jul 8, 2013
Dave Nelson wrote:
<quoted text>
If there were no Pakistani radicals there would be no Afghan, Saudi, or Muslim radicals from other countries allowed to live there. Plus the terrorism in India done by Pakistani based Muslim extremists on the Hindus.
That doesn't really follow.

“I speak my mind”

Since: Sep 10

It hurts to bite my tongue

#637977 Jul 8, 2013
Aura Mytha wrote:
<quoted text>
This is deplorably laughable. For one to accept what you have written here, you will have to accept the framework theory of the evolution of man and accept Eve was a evolutionary descendant of the hominids and another species human as well as the status on the tree of life as a hominini. Next you are putting a definitive date for the flood and giving us a testable criteria to falsify your hypothesis and the flood. Are you sure you want to go there?
I didn't say any of this, I found it on the Internet....I ask an opinion on it and clearly stated I wasn't supporting it's accuracy.

“A sentient umbrella speaks”

Since: Mar 11

Some stable somewhere

#637978 Jul 8, 2013
Double Fine wrote:
<quoted text>
Will take a look, amigo.
I can already guess the evidence. Does it involve giant humans? Dinosaurs spotted in Africa, etc?
They will be interested to know that I have definite proof of the Mysterious Cheesy Weasel, too! I have a skeleton of a 40 foot tall weasel, in my closet. I have not let any palaeontologist see it, because those evolutionist heretics will destroy the evidence! But the evidence is real!
Can I see the evidence? Puuuuuuuhhhhleeeeeaase?

Just inside the closet hey?

What else do you have in there...?

mwahahahahahahahaa!

“First it steals your mind..”

Since: Jun 11

..and then it steals your soul

#637979 Jul 8, 2013
Dave Nelson wrote:
<quoted text>
The odd part about an educated and knowledgeable woman such as yourself making such a statement in that last paragraph is your taking such words as literal as a fundamentalist would and applying it to a whole group. It is obvious to most intelligent people that story is metaphorical, and has been for many years long before modern "scientific study".
You seem to expect others should see and believe in your developed logic of how existence developed. In spite of the fact that logic keeps changing as more info comes in and therefore different perspectives develop within the field of study, some of which will be contrary to your hide bound views.
I'm not saying you are being hypocritical, just maybe a little confused about what you do know and how you know it. Sprinkled with a lot of ego.
1) The Genesis story is 'metaphorical'? Tell that to the others on here that defend Creationism.

2) We await any new finding that disproves any of our hypothesis.

3) What do expect her to do? She is a scholar, up against soneone with only knowledge of Genesis 1? Do you not understand that she comes with a plethora more facts than anyone else on the topix?

4) Why do you hate academics so much?

“H-o-o-o-o-o-o-ld on thar!”

Since: Sep 08

The Borderland of Sol

#637980 Jul 8, 2013
RiversideRedneck wrote:
<quoted text>
BZZZZZT!
Wrong again.
As a matter of fact, I'm awaiting a book from Amazon that Mac recommended. "We Need To Talk About Kelvin".
It cost me a penny, so it better be good!
Well worth it. An easy read, and a first-rate intro to all manner of subjects...

“Listen to the sounds”

Since: Feb 09

of your own extinction......

#637981 Jul 8, 2013
Dave Nelson wrote:
<quoted text>
If there were no Pakistani radicals there would be no Afghan, Saudi, or Muslim radicals from other countries allowed to live there. Plus the terrorism in India done by Pakistani based Muslim extremists on the Hindus.
You assume the Pakistani government has as much control over its country as your government does over yours.

Plus, the Taliban are expert mountaineers and tunnelers, which is why even the U.S. could never exterminate them. They live in the mountains on the edge of Pakistan where hardly any Pakistanis were living anyway, apart from a few small villages which they easily overran.

India and Pakistan have been fighting over Kashmir for ages now. I can assure you, the Hindus give as good as they get.

“Listen to the sounds”

Since: Feb 09

of your own extinction......

#637982 Jul 8, 2013
Double Fine wrote:
<quoted text>
Will take a look, amigo.
I can already guess the evidence. Does it involve giant humans? Dinosaurs spotted in Africa, etc?
They will be interested to know that I have definite proof of the Mysterious Cheesy Weasel, too! I have a skeleton of a 40 foot tall weasel, in my closet. I have not let any palaeontologist see it, because those evolutionist heretics will destroy the evidence! But the evidence is real!
Nothing about giant humans or weasels, but the guy does mention the "mysterious Sauropod in the Congo!" "Mokele Mobembe!". But thats just one of the things. He mentions a lot of other stuff, some erroneous, other fascinating, assuming he's not lying.

“I speak my mind”

Since: Sep 10

It hurts to bite my tongue

#637983 Jul 8, 2013
Hidingfromyou wrote:
<quoted text>
Well, first off, you got that from a creationist site, so clearly they aren't a scientific source. Second, they get the science wrong - probably on purpose.
<quoted text>
It's a bit misleading to write it that way. They concluded that the women can trace their mitochondria back to one woman. So, yes, that bit of non-nuclear genetics ties them back. However, their other genes are not from "mitochondrial eve," but from all the sexual reproduction along the way.
You're 50% each parent,(up to) 25% each grandparent (plus your own mutations). Great grandparents get reduced even more - each generation decreases that percentage by half. And this is all b/c of sexual reproduction. So the percentage of your genes that you can trace directly back to your distant relatives is quite small - another way of saying this is that in the distant past, a lot of people are your ancestors.
Mitochondrial Eve certainly existed, but she lived with a group of other people. It was not just one women, but a whole bunch.
<quoted text>
It's nice that they admit they've moved into mythology here.
<quoted text>
This bit is grossly simplified. There are multiple language families that are not related to each other.
<quoted text>
The article is close to correct here - the research was flawed for a no. of scientific reasons, one of which was that their estimation of the mutation rates in mtDNA was wrong. It was based on a separation from Pan at 5 mya. That's false; our best estimates place that at at ~6.3 mya.
However, the research was also flawed b/c the half-life of mtDNA information is 125000 years. So anything over 125kya is not estimable using mtDNA.
The study was heavily critiqued in science.
<quoted text>
AUS was populated about 40kya. The above info is incorrect.
<quoted text>
False. The research was heavily critiqued for its weak points.
<quoted text>
The above is quote-mining. Not surprisingly, the creation site you went to ignored all information in that paper and only took what they wanted. The following sentence is "No one thinks that's the case."
http://www.dnai.org/teacherguide/pdf/referenc...
I ran out of room - the Adam stuff they wrote about was likewise pure nonsense; they just made up the data to support their religious beliefs.
That's the danger of dogma - it corrupts science to fit mythology. In science, we critique our work, find the problems, and move forward.
Thanks! appreciate your knowledge!

“Ditat Deus”

Since: Jul 12

Location hidden

#637984 Jul 8, 2013
ChristineM wrote:
<quoted text>
Are you an atheists? You juts pulled the spell check card AGAIN..
I don’t really care what your christian hatred tells you.
"an atheist"?

O_o

"jsut"?

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