Prove there's a god.

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#619763
Apr 25, 2013
 

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RiversideRedneck wrote:
<quoted text>
Wrong.
Just because He knows what you're gonna do doesn't mean he's controlling what you do.
You choose.
I think I addressed that point. Even if he's not actively controlling the details of our lives, free will is incompatible with omniscience, omnipresence, and omnipotence. You may "choose" to "reject" god, but your fate is still known to god and has been set in stone since the beginning of time - meaning that he knows exactly how many of his creations will be doomed to hell by their "choice," and he lets it happen anyway. "Free will" is not truly free if you are merely checking off points on your way to a predetermined fate.

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#619764
Apr 25, 2013
 

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RiversideRedneck wrote:
<quoted text>
Then you didn't read his post in detail.
"both"
"God knows what the outcome will be, both if we choose his destiny for us or if we choose our own way"
No, I did read his post, you just failed to understand both his post and my response. He said that god knows all possible paths available, and that the "choices" we make that lead us down those paths are unknown to god. It was an attempt to retain both free will and the omniscience of god, but it doesn't work because if he doesn't know what choices we will make he is not omniscient.

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#619765
Apr 25, 2013
 

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RiversideRedneck wrote:
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"approval"??
What do you mean?
God doesn't approve of any sin.
Do you mean "knowledge"?
Same thing in this context. Perhaps I should have said "tacit approval," but it really makes no difference. If you are all knowing and all powerful, then anything that happens, be definition, has your approval - you are necessarily allowing it to happen.

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#619766
Apr 25, 2013
 
Aerobatty wrote:
<quoted text>
This is one of those areas where I think Christianity-ALL Christianity-is harmful.
You think we can go on wasting resources and making garbage all we want because "someday" Jesus is going to come back and fix it all.
I think that's one of the reasons our infrastructure is crumbling, too.
Because the almost overwhelming opinion in this country especially, is that Jesus is coming.
Daft.
Truly daft.
Yep. The concept of "dominion" is truly disgusting.

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#619767
Apr 25, 2013
 
RiversideRedneck wrote:
<quoted text>
Dudette....
How could one person prove to another person that God is real?
The same way one person could prove anything to another person. Except you seem to think that proof means "stepping inside someone's head and seeing what they know to be true." You "prove" something by demonstrating evidence for it. That the evidence for your god resides only in the heads of believers does not excuse your claim from the rules of evidence, proof, and logic.

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#619768
Apr 25, 2013
 
RiversideRedneck wrote:
<quoted text>
You don't get to define anything, OCB.
A war is not a sin because a sin is a personal act, not a national one.
Aren't national acts collections of personal acts? Obviously, not everyone in the US supports war, but the ones that do support it and take part in it can't just pass off their responsibility to "the nation." And if anything can be considered a sin, I'd say supporting or taking part in organized murder and domination would be one of them.

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#619769
Apr 25, 2013
 
RiversideRedneck wrote:
<quoted text>
You stated emphatically that "Omniscience, Omnipresence, Omnipotence, Omnibenevolence, Evil. These five conditions can not co-exist."
Again, is that peer reviewed, observable and repeatable? Or just your opinion?
I'll betcha it's the latter.
Ae you being serious? Do you not understand simple logic?

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#619770
Apr 25, 2013
 
waaasssuuup wrote:
<quoted text>
well gee thanks tim, but since God is no respecter of persons (particullarly not of those who worship the lil grey blob between their ears), intelligence has nothing to do with it! obeying one's conscience, however, has EVERYTHING to do with having wisdom/common sense:)
Such self awareness too! Truly, a model citizen you are.

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#619771
Apr 25, 2013
 
Jorge W Arbusto wrote:
<quoted text>“Good Christians, like slaves and soldiers, ask no questions.”~ Jerry Falwell
“Grown men should not be having sex with prostitutes unless they are married to them.”~ Jerry Falwell
“How did [the Holocaust] happen? Because God allowed it to happen… because God said,‘My top priority for the Jewish people is to get them to come back to the land of Israel.’”~ Rev. John Hage
“Trees cause more pollution than automobiles.”~ Ronald Reagan
“My grandmother was not a highly educated woman, but she told me as a small child to quit feeding stray animals. You know why? Because they breed. You’re facilitating the problem if you give an animal or a person ample food supply. They will reproduce, especially ones that don’t think too much further than that. And so… what you’ve got to do is you’ve got to curtail that type of behavior. They don’t know any better.”~ Andre Bauer
”The feminist agenda is not about equal rights for women. It is about a socialist, anti-family political movement that encourages women to leave their husbands, kill their children, practice witchcraft, destroy capitalism and become lesbians.”~ Pat Robertson
“President Washington, President Lincoln, President Wilson, President Roosevelt have all authorized electronic surveillance on a far broader scale.”~ Attorney General Alberto Gonzalez, testifying before Congress
Juarez is reported to be the most dangerous city in America.”~ Rick Perry
“From time to time there are going to be things that occur that are acts of God that cannot be prevented.”~ Rick Perry, on the BP oil spill in the Gulf of Mexico, in 2010
“I will tell you that I had a mother last night come up to me here in Tampa, Florida, after the debate. She told me that her little daughter took that vaccine, that injection, and she suffered from mental retardation thereafter.”~ Michele Bachmann on the HPV vaccine.(It doesn’t cause mental retardation.)
“I feel the best way to ensure Americans’ freedom is to tighten restrictions on that freedom in any way possible. Only through wiretaps, illegal searches and seizures, unfettered government intrusion, a controlled media and a complete crackdown on free speech can we ensure the liberties of all people.”~ Attorney General John Ashcroft
”I find it interesting that it was back in the 1970s that the swine flu broke out under another, then under another Democrat president, Jimmy Carter. I’m not blaming this on President Obama, I just think it’s an interesting coincidence.”~ Rep. Michele Bachmann
“Carbon dioxide is portrayed as harmful. But there isn’t even one study that can be produced that shows that carbon dioxide is a harmful gas.”~ Rep. Michele Bachmann
“Capital punishment is our way of demonstrating the sanctity of life.””~ Orrin Hatch
“What people recognize is that there’s a fear that the United States is in an unstoppable decline. They see the rise of China, the rise of India, the rise of the Soviet Union and our loss militarily going forward.”
Michele Bachmann, unaware that the Soviet Union collapsed more than two decades ago
“It’s not uncommon to meet pastors’ wives who really let themselves go.“
—Minister Mark Driscoll of the Mars Hill Church of Seattle, defending the homosexual escapades of Rev. Ted Haggard in 2006
Christian pretzel logic
Illuminating quotes, but I find it hard to believe that ashcroft said that. Even if he thought that way, I don't think he'd be stupid enough to say it out loud.

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#619772
Apr 25, 2013
 
RiversideRedneck wrote:
<quoted text>
Oh no, no, no....
The atheist handbook is quite clear on this.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary explanations.
And "Omniscience, Omnipresence, Omnipotence, Omnibenevolence, Evil. These five conditions can not co-exist." Is pretty damned extraordinary.
What do they say? "The onus is on you"?
Ready?
Go.
That is absolutely not an extraordinary claim. That is very simple logic. It does not need defending. The only possible realm such conditions could exist simultaneously is in the olympic sized gym most christians have in their head, wherein hangs a giant banner that says "anything is possible with god."

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#619773
Apr 25, 2013
 
RiversideRedneck wrote:
<quoted text>
No, killing someone in war is not sin. Neither is killing in self defense.
Yes, a person (PERSON) stealing from a store IS sin.
Derp.
Do tell, how exactly does war make killing another human being ok. In some situations it may be necessry to preserve one's own life, like in self defense, but that does not make it moral. A necessary wrong, if you will.

So, a person stealing from a store is a sin, but a group of people, united under the modern idea of a "nation," plundering another nation's resources is peachy?

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#619774
Apr 25, 2013
 
waaasssuuup wrote:
just though of this so i have to lay it down:
the opposite of the christian philosophy to -"love the sinner, hate the sin"
is the antichrist version of
'love the sin(homosexuality), hate the christian!'
Wow. Truer words have never been spoken. I'm quite happy that you had access to a computer with which you could immortalize this little nugget of genius, lest it be overtaken by another transcendent revelation and be lost forever.

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#619775
Apr 25, 2013
 
Al Garcia wrote:
<quoted text>Omniscience, Omnipresence, Omnipotence, Omnibenevolence, Evil. These five conditions can not co-exist. One must drop away.?
One must drop away?
Just because one doesn't understand how those could possibly fit together then either we must do something or God MUST do something?
Perhaps we all can't yet see the big picture. Perhaps there are pieces to our life's puzzle that we don't yet know are missing.
This would be the equivalent of the Atheist saying that the glass is half full and the Christians saying that it's half empty.
Both may be right yet wrong at the same time. Impossible?
No. Maybe the glass is too big..... something neither side considered.
We may all be staunchly set in our beliefs or non-beliefs that we simply fail to see that we may not have all the information and we are all just simply flinging poo at each other.
The "cup" analogy doesn't really fit. That's a matter of perspective. That omniscience, omnipresence, omnipotence, and omnibenevolence cannot exist in the same realm as evil is not a matter of perspective. It's simple logic. A universe in which evil exists cannot possibly be presided over by an omnibenevolent, all powerful, all knowing being. Special pleading and appeals to ignorance do not change this fact. The only way you can get around this is to suggest that god thinks unimaginable suffering is good for us in the grand scheme of things which is why he allows it to happen, and that would be a difficult position to defend.

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#619776
Apr 25, 2013
 
RiversideRedneck wrote:
<quoted text>
Really?
You think "Omniscience, Omnipresence, Omnipotence, Omnibenevolence, Evil. These five conditions can not co-exist." is self evidentiary?
Go ahead and explain that one.
My, oh my.

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#619777
Apr 25, 2013
 
RiversideRedneck wrote:
<quoted text>
Your assumptions ate incorrect.
I HAVE disowned a brother.
And I'm "paying the price" for it.
My morals are worth it to me.
Blood is not thicker than water.
Fun fact. The phrase "blood is thicker than water" was originally meant to mean your opinion of it - not the common interpretation of "family over all." It originally meant that the "blood" that runs after "blood oaths" is thicker than the "water of the womb." The original reading was "the blood of the covenant is thicker than the water of the womb."

As with all awesome things, it has it's roots in the "covenant making" rituals of the bible.

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#619778
Apr 25, 2013
 
RiversideRedneck wrote:
<quoted text>
HA HA HA !!!!
Right wingers are against bigger and bigger gub'ment.
You're confusing us with the libtards.
Except when the government wants to go pillage some third world country or take our rights away in the name of "security" and "freedom," then it's full steam ahead for the right.

“It's all about the struggle”

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#619779
Apr 25, 2013
 

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OCB wrote:
<quoted text>Exactly what the sentiment has been from everyone I've told that story to.
My mother had a great and very witty sense of humor and this was one of those gems.
Being a rude, sarcastic bitch is not witty or funny except to another rude, sarcastic bitch.

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#619780
Apr 25, 2013
 
psalms 23 wrote:
<quoted text>
Well God wont and doesnt punish you just for following your evidence. God punish sin, and the simple fact you reject his Son.
<quoted text>
Case being, as far as you know there isnt a God correct? As you know the outcome of an unbelievers fate.. Well, that being said ''if you'' were to die today/tonight then your hope was not in Christ. Your hope was in this world and the things of this world. So yes you are playing russian roulette.. btw, isnt but one way to heaven!
<quoted text>
Yes, and you hold that belief firmly. MY point , is you guys will NEVER get the evidence you all seek from under a microscope, math problems,measure of space time and matter.. YES, knowledge is good, man should learn all he can.. But knowledge will only take you so far..
NO, not dence as you.. just have a lot more commom sence then you..
The evidence leads away from his son, so yes, god would be punishing me for following the evidence. There is no good reason to believe. Simple as that. I can't "reject" something that I don't believe in.

I don't "know" that there is not a god. I simply don't believe in one. This is not a hard distinction to understand. But thanks for throwing in that old christian standby, the threat of eternal damnation for the unbeliever. That was nice.

And no, I don't "firmly believe" that the universe started one way or the other. "Firm belief" denotes a belief that is resistant to change and impervious to reason, and that does not describe my views on the matter. I choose to "believe" where the evidence takes me. If tomorrow the evidence suggested that the universe was birthed by a giant dragon, I would adjust my views accordingly.

That's the difference between you and I. You start with a conclusion and look for evidence to support it, and I start with the evidence and look for a conclusion that fits.

“It's all about the struggle”

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#619781
Apr 25, 2013
 
RiversideRedneck wrote:
<quoted text>
Yes, I'm sure a libtard, non-parent like you knows all the best ways to raise kids.....
Why would you NOT discipline a 6 month old?!
You must like the sound of screaming babies.

You can't seriously expect a 6 month old to grasp why it is being disciplined!

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#619782
Apr 25, 2013
 
psalms 23 wrote:
<quoted text>
Thats your choice,, by all means persue your theories and hopes in the science world...
No point in discussing my God with you, you are not seeking God..
Everything science has was ''loaned and borrowed remember??? And they got that from GOD...
I'm not "pursuing hopes" in the science world. What are you talking about?

But ok, nice cop out. No point in discussing "your god" because I am not looking to be indoctrinated.

"Loaned and borrowed?" What? I was not saying that science borrows from anything, especially god, I was explaining the big bang to you using simple terminology, and you completely misunderstood it. The universe might have started when a virtual particle was "loaned" (so as not to violate the law of conservation), spawning a singularity and a rapid expansion. Where did you get "science loans and borrows everything" from that?

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