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“Life's a Beach!!!”

Since: Mar 12

Sterling

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#619115
Apr 24, 2013
 
I've personally "experienced" God in my life.

The best story I can think of for proof though would be Helen Keller's story. Blind and deaf as an child.......essentially an "animal." (yeah, I know we're all animals) Anyway, after she was "tamed" and learning to communicate, they called in a minister that could do sign language. After just a few minutes of "listening" to him, she signed back, "God.....I always KNEW You were there.....but I did not know Your Name!!!"

Since: Sep 11

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#619116
Apr 24, 2013
 
Al Garcia wrote:
<quoted text>
Have you considered that both conditions may exist?
God knows what the outcome will be, both if we choose his destiny for us or if we choose our own way. The choice is ours and he patiently waits for us to choose his destiny and plan for us, giving us repeated opportunities to choose his way. God knows what the outcome will be, both if we choose his destiny for us or if we choose our own way. Also something I've tossed around in the back of my mind.... Could it also be that God may actually have several different life paths prepared in advance for us, depending on what direction we choose to walk down giving us an opportunity to make corrections as we learn or don't learn?
Consider that some in the scientific community consider multiverses as viable possibilities could it just makes me wonder....
Then god isn't omniscient. If he doesn't know which of the "paths" we will take, then he doesn't know everything. Which is not what the bible says. But for the purposes of this discussion, and to get around the "free will problem," I will allow it.

If each person does have a set of paths, all known to god, but with him having no control at all over which path we take, we still have our primary issue: that he created a universe that he knew would damn most of his creations to hell, and for a petty reason to boot. If he knows every possible path for every possible person, he knows that most of those paths end with hell. And he knows that the "free will" he has given us will lead most of us to question his existence, something that he has given us no evidence for. You can claim that the bible is evidence, or that "searching for him" will cause him to reveal himself to you, but these are objectively poor forms of evidence - and he knew that many people would come to that same conclusion. And to make matters worse, he condemns people for something as petty as not believing in him: he creates a world in which it is very easy to question his existence, and then doles out a punishment that is not at all in proportion to the "crime," if it can even be called a crime to not pay fealty to a jealous, possessive, fame hungry, vindictive god.

So, no, I don't think shoehorning "true free will" into the equation improves the situation at all, and it is an artificial constraint that I don't agree with anyway. There is no good reason why an omniscient god wouldn't know which path each of his creations would take.

The multiverse is an interesting idea though. Not necessarily in the sense you were talking about, because I think that it causes more problems than it solves, but an interesting idea nonetheless. I think your scenario would basically require an individual universe for each person, as some paths would be in conflict and not be compatible, requiring god to split timelines constantly in order to ensure the integrity of each path.

Since: Apr 13

Utica, NY

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#619117
Apr 24, 2013
 
I don't need to, I know there is a GOD.

“I Am No One Else”

Since: Apr 12

Seattle

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#619118
Apr 24, 2013
 
The FIrst from lainey wrote:
I don't need to, I know there is a GOD.
So you're a delusional liar.

“I see quantum effects”

Since: Jan 11

In the macro world.

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#619119
Apr 24, 2013
 
realist wrote:
hey non beleivers, you know that thing inside YOU that tells you- you should not do this or that. that thing is called your GOD conscious. GOD puts this spirit in everyone. when you dont follow your GOD conscious and just do whatever you want, you drift farther and farther away from GOD until you have no more spirit. also non believers please note this FACT that atheist are always looking for ways to prove the bible accounts wrong and can never find it unaccurate or a lie. i guess thats why we call it the HOLY BIBLE. another note- i have never met anybody who ever denied GOD ALMIGHTY when i proclaim that ONLY GOD can make everything my eyes see on this earth and in the heavens
I call it the holey bible, because it's full of holes.

“I see quantum effects”

Since: Jan 11

In the macro world.

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#619120
Apr 24, 2013
 
Al Garcia wrote:
<quoted text>So what your saying us that you Believe that:
1. God dooms billions to torture.
2. Due to God's predestination, free will is not possible.
3. God is omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent.
Then I would have to say that:
You believe that God does exist and yet still you choose to say he doesn't.

Do you know for sure that free will cannot exist?
That God is to be bound by your thinking?

Just asking.....
I think he's saying that if that god exists-the god described-then the concept of free will and omniscience are logically incompatible.

Like a round square or a married bachelor.

It just does not make sense, no matter what kind of thinking you use.

“I see quantum effects”

Since: Jan 11

In the macro world.

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#619121
Apr 24, 2013
 
Al Garcia wrote:
<quoted text>Have you considered that both conditions may exist?
God knows what the outcome will be, both if we choose his destiny for us or if we choose our own way. The choice is ours and he patiently waits for us to choose his destiny and plan for us, giving us repeated opportunities to choose his way. God knows what the outcome will be, both if we choose his destiny for us or if we choose our own way. Also something I've tossed around in the back of my mind.... Could it also be that God may actually have several different life paths prepared in advance for us, depending on what direction we choose to walk down giving us an opportunity to make corrections as we learn or don't learn?
Consider that some in the scientific community consider multiverses as viable possibilities could it just makes me wonder....
If god doesn't know which path we we'll choose, then god is not omniscient.

You cannot have both conditions.

“I see quantum effects”

Since: Jan 11

In the macro world.

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#619122
Apr 24, 2013
 
Wehms2 wrote:
I've personally "experienced" God in my life.

The best story I can think of for proof though would be Helen Keller's story. Blind and deaf as an child.......essentially an "animal." (yeah, I know we're all animals) Anyway, after she was "tamed" and learning to communicate, they called in a minister that could do sign language. After just a few minutes of "listening" to him, she signed back, "God.....I always KNEW You were there.....but I did not know Your Name!!!"
Where did you hear that story?

“Headless Body in Topless Bar”

Since: Sep 07

Hygiene, Colorado

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#619124
Apr 24, 2013
 
Wehms2 wrote:
I've personally "experienced" God in my life.
The best story I can think of for proof though would be Helen Keller's story. Blind and deaf as an child.......essentially an "animal." (yeah, I know we're all animals) Anyway, after she was "tamed" and learning to communicate, they called in a minister that could do sign language. After just a few minutes of "listening" to him, she signed back, "God.....I always KNEW You were there.....but I did not know Your Name!!!"
Funny, but this is directly from Helen Keller's book, "The Story of My Life".

"There is much in the Bible against which every instinct of my being rebels, so much that I regret the necessity which has compelled me to read it through from beginning to end. I do not think that the knowledge which I have gained of its history and sources compensates me for the unpleasant details it has forced upon my attention."

-- Helen Keller

“Headless Body in Topless Bar”

Since: Sep 07

Hygiene, Colorado

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#619125
Apr 24, 2013
 
Al Garcia wrote:
<quoted text>
Have you considered that both conditions may exist?
God knows what the outcome will be, both if we choose his destiny for us or if we choose our own way. The choice is ours and he patiently waits for us to choose his destiny and plan for us, giving us repeated opportunities to choose his way. God knows what the outcome will be, both if we choose his destiny for us or if we choose our own way. Also something I've tossed around in the back of my mind.... Could it also be that God may actually have several different life paths prepared in advance for us, depending on what direction we choose to walk down giving us an opportunity to make corrections as we learn or don't learn?
Consider that some in the scientific community consider multiverses as viable possibilities could it just makes me wonder....
Omniscience, Omnipresence, Omnipotence, Omnibenevolence, Evil. These five conditions can not co-exist. One must drop away. Besides:

"To talk of immaterial existences is to talk of nothings. To say that the human soul, angels, god, are immaterial, is to say they are nothings, or that there is no god, no angels, no soul. I cannot reason otherwise: but I believe I am supported in my creed of materialism by Locke, Tracy, and Stewart. At what age of the Christian church this heresy of immaterialism, this masked atheism, crept in, I do not know. But heresy it certainly is."

Thomas Jefferson

Since: May 11

UK

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#619126
Apr 24, 2013
 

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Wehms2 wrote:
I've personally "experienced" God in my life.
The best story I can think of for proof though would be Helen Keller's story. Blind and deaf as an child.......essentially an "animal." (yeah, I know we're all animals) Anyway, after she was "tamed" and learning to communicate, they called in a minister that could do sign language. After just a few minutes of "listening" to him, she signed back, "God.....I always KNEW You were there.....but I did not know Your Name!!!"
“I had been told by narrow people that all who were not Christians would be punished, and naturally my soul revolted, since I knew of wonderful men who had lived and died for truth as they saw it in the pagan lands …”&#8232;&#8232;~ My Religion: by Hellen Keller

Helen Keller was into mysticism. You are wrong.

“Headless Body in Topless Bar”

Since: Sep 07

Hygiene, Colorado

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#619127
Apr 24, 2013
 
realist wrote:
hey non beleivers, you know that thing inside YOU that tells you- you should not do this or that. that thing is called your GOD conscious. GOD puts this spirit in everyone. when you dont follow your GOD conscious and just do whatever you want, you drift farther and farther away from GOD until you have no more spirit. also non believers please note this FACT that atheist are always looking for ways to prove the bible accounts wrong and can never find it unaccurate or a lie. i guess thats why we call it the HOLY BIBLE. another note- i have never met anybody who ever denied GOD ALMIGHTY when i proclaim that ONLY GOD can make everything my eyes see on this earth and in the heavens
"Tell me there is a God in the serene heavens that will damn his children for the expression of an honest belief! More men have died in their sins, judged by your orthodox creeds, than there are leaves in all the forests in the wide world ten thousand times over. Tell me these men are in Hell; that these men are in torment; that these children are in eternal pain, and that they are to be punished forever and forever! I denounce this doctrine as the most infamous of lies." - Robert G. Ingersoll

Thank you for your argument from ignorance and your unsubstantiated, grammatically-incorrect rant. You just drove another stake through the heart of the cosmic Jewish zombie, and that is always welcome.

“Headless Body in Topless Bar”

Since: Sep 07

Hygiene, Colorado

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#619128
Apr 24, 2013
 
Aerobatty wrote:
<quoted text>
Where did you hear that story?
Like most stories of the Christian meme, it is made up out of whole shroud.

“Headless Body in Topless Bar”

Since: Sep 07

Hygiene, Colorado

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#619129
Apr 24, 2013
 
Al Garcia wrote:
<quoted text>
So what your saying us that you Believe that:
1. God dooms billions to torture.
2. Due to God's predestination, free will is not possible.
3. God is omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent.
Then I would have to say that:
You believe that God does exist and yet still you choose to say he doesn't.
Do you know for sure that free will cannot exist?
That God is to be bound by your thinking?
Just asking.....
Why do you think it is possible to debunk a myth without discussing the basic tenets of the myth? That is very strange.

OCB

“What a GLORIOUS day!!!”

Since: Apr 12

Orlando but NYC born & raised

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#619130
Apr 24, 2013
 

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Jorge W Arbusto wrote:
<quoted text>Funny, but this is directly from Helen Keller's book, "The Story of My Life".
"There is much in the Bible against which every instinct of my being rebels, so much that I regret the necessity which has compelled me to read it through from beginning to end. I do not think that the knowledge which I have gained of its history and sources compensates me for the unpleasant details it has forced upon my attention."
-- Helen Keller
Great that you posted this!

BTW, I love your "headline" on your avatar- I assume you know that was from an actual headline in the NY Post some years ago- I was living in Manhattan then and I remember it well the day that headline appeared on the cover of the NY Post!

LOL!

http://www.brooklynmutt.com/post/321924126/he...

“Headless Body in Topless Bar”

Since: Sep 07

Hygiene, Colorado

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#619131
Apr 24, 2013
 
Al Garcia wrote:
<quoted text>well if you are questioning him and his actions then you must believe that he exists.
If you believe that he exists, then you have to ask “Would I rather have free will with the potential for suffering and pain or live a predetermined life devoid of any problems?” I have never had anyone respond with the desire to live a life without freedom. We all see the value in having our freedom, and I personally believe that this is how God created us.
If you don't believe in God, then your question is a moot point.
Why do you think it is possible to debunk a myth without discussing the beliefs of the adherents of the myth? That is very strange.

Case in point: The conditions on Mars would indicate that life as we not it could not exist on Mars, therefore, the odds that little green men from Mars will appear on Earth are quite slim.

Your response: If you are questioning the existence of little green men from Mars, you must believe in their existence! Whoop!

It's a very strange approach and wholly illogical. You do yourself a disservice.

“Headless Body in Topless Bar”

Since: Sep 07

Hygiene, Colorado

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#619132
Apr 24, 2013
 
Al Garcia wrote:
<quoted text>
You are Muy intelligente! When I grow up, I want to be just like you señor!:)
An atheist.

“Headless Body in Topless Bar”

Since: Sep 07

Hygiene, Colorado

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#619133
Apr 24, 2013
 
psalms 23 wrote:
<quoted text>
LOL..
Oh my, another mean God hater..
Grow up will ya...
It is impossible to hate that which is not demonstrated to exist.

In the case of the god of the Old and New Testaments, it is impossible to hate that which is demonstrably false.

Just one of a million examples:

The Tower of Babel. While no one babbles for money better than a thieving, charlatan preacher, the Old Testamnet contends that the origin of languages is the Tower of Babel. We know that languages are not revolutionary but evolutionary and did not spring up out of a non-descript area of Mesopotamia as retribution by a tyrant that had already performed genocide as retribution for mistakes it had made. Your sky tyrant is perhaps the most incompetent middle manager ever conceived.

“Headless Body in Topless Bar”

Since: Sep 07

Hygiene, Colorado

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#619134
Apr 24, 2013
 
OCB wrote:
<quoted text>Great that you posted this!
BTW, I love your "headline" on your avatar- I assume you know that was from an actual headline in the NY Post some years ago- I was living in Manhattan then and I remember it well the day that headline appeared on the cover of the NY Post!
LOL!
http://www.brooklynmutt.com/post/321924126/he...
An awesome headline. An instant classic. Too bad Murdoch ruined the rag. Murray Hill here, back in the day.

“Headless Body in Topless Bar”

Since: Sep 07

Hygiene, Colorado

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#619135
Apr 24, 2013
 
psalms 23 wrote:
<quoted text>
Do you believe God/Jesus exist?
If not, we dont have much to say to one another. Meaning if you are only interested in bashing and mocking like the most here do, then i can only hope the best for you on your journey.
That poster was not bashing or mocking you. That you would respond to their legitimate questions with this miserable deflection is tacit evidence that your "faith" is built on a foundation of shifting sands and the religious shell game that harms so many while lining the coffers of admitted con men, thieves, charlatans, and larcenists.

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