Prove there's a god.

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#619112 Apr 23, 2013
Al Garcia wrote:
<quoted text>
So what your saying us that you Believe that:
1. God dooms billions to torture.
2. Due to God's predestination, free will is not possible.
3. God is omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent.
Then I would have to say that:
You believe that God does exist and yet still you choose to say he doesn't.
Do you know for sure that free will cannot exist?
That God is to be bound by your thinking?
Just asking.....
1)It is a necessary condition of his omnipotence, omniscience, and omnipresence. There is nothing, by definition, that cannot happen without his approval. Even if we have "free will" in this scenario, it matters not, because god created people who he knew, unequivocally, would "choose" to go to hell. That such a being could knowingly create conditions in which the vast majority of creations would end up experiencing the greatest torment imaginable for eternity is morally repugnant. I wouldn't wish such a thing on my worst enemy.

2) Yes, that is correct. Even if he doesn't actively manipulate everything that happens, he set into motion a series of events for which he knew the outcome of down to the tiniest detail. In such a universe, it would be possible for us to feel like we have free will, but it would only be an illusion. If he knew the instant he set the universe into motion how everything would play out, while also having the ability to change it if he so wished, free will can't be possible.
3) According to the bible, and christian/catholic tradition, yes.

And no, I don't "believe god exists while also saying he doesn't." When I say he has these qualities, I am speaking hypothetically and within the confines of what the bible says about him - like, when you are talking about a book, you might say "john threw a tree" without stopping to clarify that john is a fictional character and that he did not, in fact, throw a tree.

I think that god is bound by the laws of logic. Free will cannot exist in a universe where everything is known to a supreme being, and more importantly, where he could change anything with a snap of his fingers. That takes free will out of the equation. He knows that most people will be damned to hell by the very nature of the universe he created and the creatures he populated it with, and he allows it to happen anyway. Therefore, god gives his tacit approval to the mass damnation of his creations.

That, to me, describes a being who, even if he does exist, is not worth of worship. Most human beings have a better developed set of morals than this god. Most people I know would not even seriously think of hurting someone who dealt them a minor insult, let alone consider the notion of torturing them for eternity.

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#619113 Apr 23, 2013
worthy*

“I never claimed to be Perfect”

Since: Nov 10

just better than yesterday

#619114 Apr 23, 2013
timn17 wrote:
<quoted text>
1)It is a necessary condition of his omnipotence, omniscience, and omnipresence. There is nothing, by definition, that cannot happen without his approval. Even if we have "free will" in this scenario, it matters not, because god created people who he knew, unequivocally, would "choose" to go to hell. That such a being could knowingly create conditions in which the vast majority of creations would end up experiencing the greatest torment imaginable for eternity is morally repugnant. I wouldn't wish such a thing on my worst enemy.
2) Yes, that is correct. Even if he doesn't actively manipulate everything that happens, he set into motion a series of events for which he knew the outcome of down to the tiniest detail. In such a universe, it would be possible for us to feel like we have free will, but it would only be an illusion. If he knew the instant he set the universe into motion how everything would play out, while also having the ability to change it if he so wished, free will can't be possible.
3) According to the bible, and christian/catholic tradition, yes.
And no, I don't "believe god exists while also saying he doesn't." When I say he has these qualities, I am speaking hypothetically and within the confines of what the bible says about him - like, when you are talking about a book, you might say "john threw a tree" without stopping to clarify that john is a fictional character and that he did not, in fact, throw a tree.
I think that god is bound by the laws of logic. Free will cannot exist in a universe where everything is known to a supreme being, and more importantly, where he could change anything with a snap of his fingers. That takes free will out of the equation. He knows that most people will be damned to hell by the very nature of the universe he created and the creatures he populated it with, and he allows it to happen anyway. Therefore, god gives his tacit approval to the mass damnation of his creations.
That, to me, describes a being who, even if he does exist, is not worth of worship. Most human beings have a better developed set of morals than this god. Most people I know would not even seriously think of hurting someone who dealt them a minor insult, let alone consider the notion of torturing them for eternity.
Have you considered that both conditions may exist?
God knows what the outcome will be, both if we choose his destiny for us or if we choose our own way. The choice is ours and he patiently waits for us to choose his destiny and plan for us, giving us repeated opportunities to choose his way. God knows what the outcome will be, both if we choose his destiny for us or if we choose our own way. Also something I've tossed around in the back of my mind.... Could it also be that God may actually have several different life paths prepared in advance for us, depending on what direction we choose to walk down giving us an opportunity to make corrections as we learn or don't learn?
Consider that some in the scientific community consider multiverses as viable possibilities could it just makes me wonder....

“Life's a Beach!!!”

Since: Mar 12

Sterling

#619115 Apr 24, 2013
I've personally "experienced" God in my life.

The best story I can think of for proof though would be Helen Keller's story. Blind and deaf as an child.......essentially an "animal." (yeah, I know we're all animals) Anyway, after she was "tamed" and learning to communicate, they called in a minister that could do sign language. After just a few minutes of "listening" to him, she signed back, "God.....I always KNEW You were there.....but I did not know Your Name!!!"

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#619116 Apr 24, 2013
Al Garcia wrote:
<quoted text>
Have you considered that both conditions may exist?
God knows what the outcome will be, both if we choose his destiny for us or if we choose our own way. The choice is ours and he patiently waits for us to choose his destiny and plan for us, giving us repeated opportunities to choose his way. God knows what the outcome will be, both if we choose his destiny for us or if we choose our own way. Also something I've tossed around in the back of my mind.... Could it also be that God may actually have several different life paths prepared in advance for us, depending on what direction we choose to walk down giving us an opportunity to make corrections as we learn or don't learn?
Consider that some in the scientific community consider multiverses as viable possibilities could it just makes me wonder....
Then god isn't omniscient. If he doesn't know which of the "paths" we will take, then he doesn't know everything. Which is not what the bible says. But for the purposes of this discussion, and to get around the "free will problem," I will allow it.

If each person does have a set of paths, all known to god, but with him having no control at all over which path we take, we still have our primary issue: that he created a universe that he knew would damn most of his creations to hell, and for a petty reason to boot. If he knows every possible path for every possible person, he knows that most of those paths end with hell. And he knows that the "free will" he has given us will lead most of us to question his existence, something that he has given us no evidence for. You can claim that the bible is evidence, or that "searching for him" will cause him to reveal himself to you, but these are objectively poor forms of evidence - and he knew that many people would come to that same conclusion. And to make matters worse, he condemns people for something as petty as not believing in him: he creates a world in which it is very easy to question his existence, and then doles out a punishment that is not at all in proportion to the "crime," if it can even be called a crime to not pay fealty to a jealous, possessive, fame hungry, vindictive god.

So, no, I don't think shoehorning "true free will" into the equation improves the situation at all, and it is an artificial constraint that I don't agree with anyway. There is no good reason why an omniscient god wouldn't know which path each of his creations would take.

The multiverse is an interesting idea though. Not necessarily in the sense you were talking about, because I think that it causes more problems than it solves, but an interesting idea nonetheless. I think your scenario would basically require an individual universe for each person, as some paths would be in conflict and not be compatible, requiring god to split timelines constantly in order to ensure the integrity of each path.

Since: Apr 13

New Hartford, NY

#619117 Apr 24, 2013
I don't need to, I know there is a GOD.

“I Am No One Else”

Since: Apr 12

Seattle

#619118 Apr 24, 2013
The FIrst from lainey wrote:
I don't need to, I know there is a GOD.
So you're a delusional liar.

“I see quantum effects”

Since: Jan 11

In the macro world.

#619119 Apr 24, 2013
realist wrote:
hey non beleivers, you know that thing inside YOU that tells you- you should not do this or that. that thing is called your GOD conscious. GOD puts this spirit in everyone. when you dont follow your GOD conscious and just do whatever you want, you drift farther and farther away from GOD until you have no more spirit. also non believers please note this FACT that atheist are always looking for ways to prove the bible accounts wrong and can never find it unaccurate or a lie. i guess thats why we call it the HOLY BIBLE. another note- i have never met anybody who ever denied GOD ALMIGHTY when i proclaim that ONLY GOD can make everything my eyes see on this earth and in the heavens
I call it the holey bible, because it's full of holes.

“I see quantum effects”

Since: Jan 11

In the macro world.

#619120 Apr 24, 2013
Al Garcia wrote:
<quoted text>So what your saying us that you Believe that:
1. God dooms billions to torture.
2. Due to God's predestination, free will is not possible.
3. God is omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent.
Then I would have to say that:
You believe that God does exist and yet still you choose to say he doesn't.

Do you know for sure that free will cannot exist?
That God is to be bound by your thinking?

Just asking.....
I think he's saying that if that god exists-the god described-then the concept of free will and omniscience are logically incompatible.

Like a round square or a married bachelor.

It just does not make sense, no matter what kind of thinking you use.

“I see quantum effects”

Since: Jan 11

In the macro world.

#619121 Apr 24, 2013
Al Garcia wrote:
<quoted text>Have you considered that both conditions may exist?
God knows what the outcome will be, both if we choose his destiny for us or if we choose our own way. The choice is ours and he patiently waits for us to choose his destiny and plan for us, giving us repeated opportunities to choose his way. God knows what the outcome will be, both if we choose his destiny for us or if we choose our own way. Also something I've tossed around in the back of my mind.... Could it also be that God may actually have several different life paths prepared in advance for us, depending on what direction we choose to walk down giving us an opportunity to make corrections as we learn or don't learn?
Consider that some in the scientific community consider multiverses as viable possibilities could it just makes me wonder....
If god doesn't know which path we we'll choose, then god is not omniscient.

You cannot have both conditions.

“I see quantum effects”

Since: Jan 11

In the macro world.

#619122 Apr 24, 2013
Wehms2 wrote:
I've personally "experienced" God in my life.

The best story I can think of for proof though would be Helen Keller's story. Blind and deaf as an child.......essentially an "animal." (yeah, I know we're all animals) Anyway, after she was "tamed" and learning to communicate, they called in a minister that could do sign language. After just a few minutes of "listening" to him, she signed back, "God.....I always KNEW You were there.....but I did not know Your Name!!!"
Where did you hear that story?

“Headless Body in Topless Bar”

Since: Sep 07

Hygiene, Colorado

#619124 Apr 24, 2013
Wehms2 wrote:
I've personally "experienced" God in my life.
The best story I can think of for proof though would be Helen Keller's story. Blind and deaf as an child.......essentially an "animal." (yeah, I know we're all animals) Anyway, after she was "tamed" and learning to communicate, they called in a minister that could do sign language. After just a few minutes of "listening" to him, she signed back, "God.....I always KNEW You were there.....but I did not know Your Name!!!"
Funny, but this is directly from Helen Keller's book, "The Story of My Life".

"There is much in the Bible against which every instinct of my being rebels, so much that I regret the necessity which has compelled me to read it through from beginning to end. I do not think that the knowledge which I have gained of its history and sources compensates me for the unpleasant details it has forced upon my attention."

-- Helen Keller

“Headless Body in Topless Bar”

Since: Sep 07

Hygiene, Colorado

#619125 Apr 24, 2013
Al Garcia wrote:
<quoted text>
Have you considered that both conditions may exist?
God knows what the outcome will be, both if we choose his destiny for us or if we choose our own way. The choice is ours and he patiently waits for us to choose his destiny and plan for us, giving us repeated opportunities to choose his way. God knows what the outcome will be, both if we choose his destiny for us or if we choose our own way. Also something I've tossed around in the back of my mind.... Could it also be that God may actually have several different life paths prepared in advance for us, depending on what direction we choose to walk down giving us an opportunity to make corrections as we learn or don't learn?
Consider that some in the scientific community consider multiverses as viable possibilities could it just makes me wonder....
Omniscience, Omnipresence, Omnipotence, Omnibenevolence, Evil. These five conditions can not co-exist. One must drop away. Besides:

"To talk of immaterial existences is to talk of nothings. To say that the human soul, angels, god, are immaterial, is to say they are nothings, or that there is no god, no angels, no soul. I cannot reason otherwise: but I believe I am supported in my creed of materialism by Locke, Tracy, and Stewart. At what age of the Christian church this heresy of immaterialism, this masked atheism, crept in, I do not know. But heresy it certainly is."

Thomas Jefferson

Since: May 11

Woodford Green, UK

#619126 Apr 24, 2013
Wehms2 wrote:
I've personally "experienced" God in my life.
The best story I can think of for proof though would be Helen Keller's story. Blind and deaf as an child.......essentially an "animal." (yeah, I know we're all animals) Anyway, after she was "tamed" and learning to communicate, they called in a minister that could do sign language. After just a few minutes of "listening" to him, she signed back, "God.....I always KNEW You were there.....but I did not know Your Name!!!"
“I had been told by narrow people that all who were not Christians would be punished, and naturally my soul revolted, since I knew of wonderful men who had lived and died for truth as they saw it in the pagan lands …”&#8232;&#8232;~ My Religion: by Hellen Keller

Helen Keller was into mysticism. You are wrong.

“Headless Body in Topless Bar”

Since: Sep 07

Hygiene, Colorado

#619127 Apr 24, 2013
realist wrote:
hey non beleivers, you know that thing inside YOU that tells you- you should not do this or that. that thing is called your GOD conscious. GOD puts this spirit in everyone. when you dont follow your GOD conscious and just do whatever you want, you drift farther and farther away from GOD until you have no more spirit. also non believers please note this FACT that atheist are always looking for ways to prove the bible accounts wrong and can never find it unaccurate or a lie. i guess thats why we call it the HOLY BIBLE. another note- i have never met anybody who ever denied GOD ALMIGHTY when i proclaim that ONLY GOD can make everything my eyes see on this earth and in the heavens
"Tell me there is a God in the serene heavens that will damn his children for the expression of an honest belief! More men have died in their sins, judged by your orthodox creeds, than there are leaves in all the forests in the wide world ten thousand times over. Tell me these men are in Hell; that these men are in torment; that these children are in eternal pain, and that they are to be punished forever and forever! I denounce this doctrine as the most infamous of lies." - Robert G. Ingersoll

Thank you for your argument from ignorance and your unsubstantiated, grammatically-incorrect rant. You just drove another stake through the heart of the cosmic Jewish zombie, and that is always welcome.

“Headless Body in Topless Bar”

Since: Sep 07

Hygiene, Colorado

#619128 Apr 24, 2013
Aerobatty wrote:
<quoted text>
Where did you hear that story?
Like most stories of the Christian meme, it is made up out of whole shroud.

“Headless Body in Topless Bar”

Since: Sep 07

Hygiene, Colorado

#619129 Apr 24, 2013
Al Garcia wrote:
<quoted text>
So what your saying us that you Believe that:
1. God dooms billions to torture.
2. Due to God's predestination, free will is not possible.
3. God is omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent.
Then I would have to say that:
You believe that God does exist and yet still you choose to say he doesn't.
Do you know for sure that free will cannot exist?
That God is to be bound by your thinking?
Just asking.....
Why do you think it is possible to debunk a myth without discussing the basic tenets of the myth? That is very strange.

OCB

“What a GLORIOUS day!!!”

Since: Apr 12

Orlando but NYC born & raised

#619130 Apr 24, 2013
Jorge W Arbusto wrote:
<quoted text>Funny, but this is directly from Helen Keller's book, "The Story of My Life".
"There is much in the Bible against which every instinct of my being rebels, so much that I regret the necessity which has compelled me to read it through from beginning to end. I do not think that the knowledge which I have gained of its history and sources compensates me for the unpleasant details it has forced upon my attention."
-- Helen Keller
Great that you posted this!

BTW, I love your "headline" on your avatar- I assume you know that was from an actual headline in the NY Post some years ago- I was living in Manhattan then and I remember it well the day that headline appeared on the cover of the NY Post!

LOL!

http://www.brooklynmutt.com/post/321924126/he...

“Headless Body in Topless Bar”

Since: Sep 07

Hygiene, Colorado

#619131 Apr 24, 2013
Al Garcia wrote:
<quoted text>well if you are questioning him and his actions then you must believe that he exists.
If you believe that he exists, then you have to ask “Would I rather have free will with the potential for suffering and pain or live a predetermined life devoid of any problems?” I have never had anyone respond with the desire to live a life without freedom. We all see the value in having our freedom, and I personally believe that this is how God created us.
If you don't believe in God, then your question is a moot point.
Why do you think it is possible to debunk a myth without discussing the beliefs of the adherents of the myth? That is very strange.

Case in point: The conditions on Mars would indicate that life as we not it could not exist on Mars, therefore, the odds that little green men from Mars will appear on Earth are quite slim.

Your response: If you are questioning the existence of little green men from Mars, you must believe in their existence! Whoop!

It's a very strange approach and wholly illogical. You do yourself a disservice.

“Headless Body in Topless Bar”

Since: Sep 07

Hygiene, Colorado

#619132 Apr 24, 2013
Al Garcia wrote:
<quoted text>
You are Muy intelligente! When I grow up, I want to be just like you señor!:)
An atheist.

Tell me when this thread is updated:

Subscribe Now Add to my Tracker

Add your comments below

Characters left: 4000

Please note by submitting this form you acknowledge that you have read the Terms of Service and the comment you are posting is in compliance with such terms. Be polite. Inappropriate posts may be removed by the moderator. Send us your feedback.

Top Stories Discussions

Title Updated Last By Comments
The Christian Atheist debate (Jun '15) 3 min Not religious 30,256
Why Should Jesus Love Me? (Feb '08) 20 min trifecta1 617,986
News Roman Catholic church only true church, says Va... (Jul '07) 32 min hojo 638,103
Play "end of the word" part 2 44 min ImFree2Choose 1,475
Sexy Whitegrl's Feet / RED TOES 45 min Jigsaww99 1
Jehovah's Witnesses are true disciple of Jesus ... (Mar '07) 1 hr Holy Saint dr Shrink 43,940
http://friendable.com 2 hr Stock analyst 1
American Soldiers - Duty, Honor, Country (Jun '11) 5 hr Naturally Wired 38,054
More from around the web