Prove there's a god.

“THE LORD IS MY SHEPHERD;”

Since: Apr 09

Location hidden

#618721 Apr 21, 2013
christianity is EVIL wrote:
<quoted text>
there always was something imo,our universe was most likely part of a multiverse
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiverse
They are plenty of speculations for sure, but wouldnt you agree they had to be a ''first cause''? Who/what had the intelligence and power to give knowledge, to make that ''first'' cell with all of that information in it?

Who put it there? For arguments sake, lets say that possibly could be true, but the same question applies. They had to be a beginning, rather it be one universe or multiple.

“Truth is beyond wavelength ”

Since: Jan 11

Location hidden

#618722 Apr 21, 2013
Aura Mytha wrote:
<quoted text>
No all this is your bull sjit because.
Groups of molecules never became aware of themselves.
Cells may have become somewhat aware of themselves, but not at a level we can call conscious. So your whole scheme is wrong, and you call me crazy. If you want to say science is still puzzling
out the mystery of life, then say it.
But molecules aren't alive or aware of themselves and defining life as a collection of molecules is ridiculous.
You are really asking how did organic matter become living organisms .
Holy sh*t. You really are whacked. Molecules "never" became aware of themselves? What are we but a bunch of molecules? Matter fact that's what any good topix atheist will try to convince others of, that we are nothing but molecules and as such have no truly free will. And now you're saying we're not? What are we then, psycho man? However you want to slice it, call it molecules call it cells; if there really was an abiogenesis event (and it was not driven by an eternal consciousness) then there most definitely had to be an instant in time when these molecules or cells (which *are* groups of molecules, or don't you get that?) had become "aware". There exists awareness now and you claim awareness did'nt exist eternally, so there's is no such thing as becoming aware slowly. The very instant you *start* becoming aware, no matter how little or slowly, that is the instant you become aware. A nanometer of awareness is still awareness.

“Truth is beyond wavelength ”

Since: Jan 11

Location hidden

#618723 Apr 21, 2013
timn17 wrote:
<quoted text>There is a distinction. I did not say "consciousness and awareness," I said "consciousness and self awareness." A cat is conscious. It is not self aware. Not everything that is conscious has a sense of self.
Don't understand the last question. Comfortable with what? I don't care where consciousness "comes from" either way.
and
And I don't know for sure, but based on testing for animal self awareness, there are only a select few animals that have a sense of self. I would link the proof to you, but I know that at this point you will respond with "well, you can't really know they don't have a sense of self unless you know what makes consciousness possible" or some other such nonsense. The point is, given the evidence we have, dogs do not have a sense of self. Before you start yelling, take a moment and make sure you really know what is meant by "sense of self." It does not mean "ability to think."
You guys are really flipping me out. If your boss IANS was here he would smack you and Aura and then fire you. How can anyone possibly know if a cat is self aware or has a sense of self? That is completely a subjective phenomenon. No one knows if I have a sense of being. But you assume I do sine you do and we are all humans. Heck everyone else in the world could be aliens or angels and this life could just be "my test". I don't believe that but it could be true for all I know. Get it? YOU really think animals have no sense of self? They might not but science cannot approach that.

_-Alice-_

Since: Apr 13

Location hidden

#618724 Apr 21, 2013
Pokay wrote:
<quoted text>Holy sh*t. You really are whacked. Molecules "never" became aware of themselves? What are we but a bunch of molecules? Matter fact that's what any good topix atheist will try to convince others of, that we are nothing but molecules and as such have no truly free will. And now you're saying we're not? What are we then, psycho man? However you want to slice it, call it molecules call it cells; if there really was an abiogenesis event (and it was not driven by an eternal consciousness) then there most definitely had to be an instant in time when these molecules or cells (which *are* groups of molecules, or don't you get that?) had become "aware". There exists awareness now and you claim awareness did'nt exist eternally, so there's is no such thing as becoming aware slowly. The very instant you *start* becoming aware, no matter how little or slowly, that is the instant you become aware. A nanometer of awareness is still awareness.
I spent some time in the Yale-New Haven Psychiatric Hospital.

Where did you spend your time?

“THE LORD IS MY SHEPHERD;”

Since: Apr 09

Location hidden

#618725 Apr 21, 2013
Aura Mytha wrote:
<quoted text> It will suffice to say your mentor was missing the concept of our 4th dimension when thinking about nothing vs something.
LOL, forgive me for laughing..

But it was you who spoke about "all" the things that author said, was only "concepts" of my/his mind..

"pot calling the kettle black"!

And here you have your own concept and your mentor's concept of a 4th demension, a theory based only on a ''mans'' coined term. to which he cant prove to be true.

In mathematics, four-dimensional space ("4D") is an abstract concept derived by generalizing the rules of three-dimensional space.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four-dimensional...

In 1908, Hermann Minkowski presented a paper[6] consolidating the role of time as the fourth dimension of spacetime, the basis for Einstein's theories of special and general relativity.[7] But the geometry of spacetime, being non-Euclidean, is profoundly different from that popularised by Hinton. The study of such Minkowski spaces required new mathematics quite different from that of four-dimensional Euclidean space, and so developed along quite different lines. This separation was less clear in the popular imagination, with works of fiction and philosophy blurring the distinction, so in 1973 H. S. M. Coxeter felt compelled to write:


Little, if anything, is gained by representing the fourth Euclidean dimension as time. In fact, this idea, so attractively developed by H. G. Wells in The Time Machine, has led such authors as John William Dunne (An Experiment with Time) into a serious misconception of the theory of Relativity. Minkowski's geometry of space-time is not Euclidean, and consequently has no connection with the present investigation.

—H. S. M. Coxeter, Regular Polytopes[8]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-Euclidean

“Truth is beyond wavelength ”

Since: Jan 11

Location hidden

#618726 Apr 21, 2013
timn17 wrote:
Woah. Wow. Consciousness is only molecular now when I can show how cells became conscious "during abiogensis?" First of all, who the fuck says that cells became immediately conscious during abiogenisis? And secondly, are you serious? So, evolution only happened if we can show how life started during abiogenisis, the universe is only expanding if we can show what happened at t=0, etc.. etc... etc...
WTF are you going on about? If it would make you feel better then we can say life came into being first and then awareness came into being subsequently (according to your speculation). It doesn't matter when it happened, numbnuts, fact is it happened. And if it happened, then we obviously went from a state of 'non-awareness' to 'awareness'. Go read the post I addressed to Aura; same answer, that is, unless you say you believe in an eternal consciousness and I Know that's not true.

“THE LORD IS MY SHEPHERD;”

Since: Apr 09

Location hidden

#618727 Apr 21, 2013
Aura Mytha wrote:
<quoted text> You do realize these concepts, and yes they are concepts.
Were entirely constructed by the limitations of your own capacity and fabricated in your mind, and that however these constraints were fashioned in your own mind. They do not necessarily reflect what really must happen , or indeed what really happens but in fact..... are constructs of your own device. Reality can be different.. and you do not know, these are the things we can count on.

..Had to repost this..

Everything you said to me in this post, can be directed back to you and your own concepts..

So again, what problem did you have with that analogy??? HMMM

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#618728 Apr 21, 2013
nanoanomaly wrote:
<quoted text>Prove cats are not self-aware.
I don't know how well you have been following this conversation, but I believe I specifically said that we cannot prove that any animals are *not* self aware. And even if you hadn't been following the conversation, you should know that it is always dumb to ask someone to prove a negative. Cats, and most other animals, have not shown any sign of self awareness in any test we have come up with. This doesn't mean that they aren't self aware, of course - it might mean that we don't know how to test for it. However, since some animals have "passed" self awareness tests, it would seem that we do know how to test for it in some instances, which reduces the chance that we simply aren't giving the right tests.

One person objected to the notion that dogs do not have self awareness, noting that dogs do not use sight as their primary sense and as such the mirror test would probably mean nothing to them. Possibly a valid point, so he designed a "smell test" of self awareness, and this failed as well.

“Truth is beyond wavelength ”

Since: Jan 11

Location hidden

#618729 Apr 21, 2013
Awareness is a finished product. It can't be called 'awareness' until it is aware. Anything that is created cannot be called a finished product until it is done. So, there is an instant in time when a finished product is realized. Awareness, according to you ignoramuses, evolved from groups of molecules. So, there is a moment in time when 'awareness' was realized. Even if it was the tiniest finite amount.

Atheist motto in this case :
When there are no holes just one yourself out of nothing. You guys are really talented making something out of nothing. Here I thought it was impossible

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#618730 Apr 21, 2013
RiversideRedneck wrote:
<quoted text>
First of all, I don't think God creates everything, I think He created everything long ago but not that He is still creating things.
Secondly, God allows everything to have free will, which includes Satan. He created a beautiful creature that chose to be evil and had the power to become Satan.
God gives everybody and everything free will, including Satan.
But you think God created evil. I'm curious as to why. What is evil? It is the absence of good, which God created.
God created good because God is good. In the absence of God you have evil - you have Satan.
Imagine you know everything. Imagine you can do anything. Imagine that time does not exist for you - you are not bound to a single moment. Ok?

Now imagine you create a colony of little creatures. Imagine that you know everything that they will ever do, even if you don't explicitly make them do it. Imagine that you have the power to change the course of any event in their timeline. K?

Now, imagine you create one who you immediately know, by virtue of your omniscience, will go on to become evil. You know of all the lives he will destroy and all the bad things he will do. Imagine you could, by snapping your fingers, make all of the bad things he will ever do go away. k?

Now imagine that you don't. You see, in your infinite wisdom, untold suffering brought upon your creation by this creature. Even if you technically gave this creature "free will" (which technically can't exist in this universe since you know everything that will happen and can change it, but we will ignore that), you still know that this creature will use this "free will" to inflict suffering. k?

You have created evil. Even if you didn't "make" this creature evil intentionally, and even if he "chose" to become evil on his own - he did so under the watchful eye of you, a being who has the power to stop him effortlessly.

So yes, your god created evil. He set into motion a series of events that he knew, for a fact, would result in unimaginable levels of suffering in this universe, and he does not life a finger to stop it. That, to me, is worse than any sin of any evil man. Your god could snap his fingers and make sure that no child ever loses his parents, that no girl is ever raped, and that no kid is ever sold into slavery ever again. And he doesn't. That's even worse than your devil, because while he is evil, he doesn't have control over all of creation.

And, no, the absence of good/god is not evil. The absence of good is the absence of good. You don't automatically start butchering babies if you aren't a "good person."

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#618731 Apr 21, 2013
Aura Mytha wrote:
<quoted text> See if they are on the list of animals determined to be self aware.
http://listnation.blogspot.com/2012/03/9-anim...
Get out of here with your "lists" of your "evidence."

Seriously though, I think most people just naturally anthropomorphize their pets - assuming that since *they* personally have self awareness, their pet must have it too. It's an easy assumption to make. When a dog nearly explodes with happiness when you come home, it's easy to make assumptions like that.

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#618732 Apr 21, 2013
reesy wrote:
Why don't you ask god to prove his existence to you. Remember when we communicate in spirit it is through our emotions so you might not ''see'' anything you will feel god though. Also he will let himself known to you only if you have an open heart and mind and let him know you want him in your life.remember we have free will.Another really good suggestion for you if you struggle with religion. Separate God from it. plain and simple . I promise god wouldn't mind one bit. In fact the only important thing is that You have a relationship with god . Religion or not. God Bless You and keep searching for answers we all have a spiritual path to follow :)
Believe before you believe. Classic.

“THE LORD IS MY SHEPHERD;”

Since: Apr 09

Location hidden

#618733 Apr 21, 2013
Pokay wrote:
Awareness is a finished product. It can't be called 'awareness' until it is aware. Anything that is created cannot be called a finished product until it is done. So, there is an instant in time when a finished product is realized. Awareness, according to you ignoramuses, evolved from groups of molecules. So, there is a moment in time when 'awareness' was realized. Even if it was the tiniest finite amount.
Atheist motto in this case :
When there are no holes just one yourself out of nothing. You guys are really talented making something out of nothing. Here I thought it was impossible
And most of em say they are open to reason and logic.. Ive yet to see any "evidence" of that.

When faced with what you have shown them, they assume the position and begin to fill in the blanks with indoctrination.

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#618734 Apr 21, 2013
psalms 23 wrote:
<quoted text>
What? Huh? Those are not my words and didnt come from my head, but they sounded very logical and reasonable to me..
So do you want to explain your concepts, that you have fabricated and fashioned in your mind, and those of others who has influenced your constructed view of how life began??
So you disagree with anaology, so what would your analogy be(scientificly)??
Your link is just one big error of false equivalence. It tries to compare the macro world and what we think we know about it (room full of tennis balls), to the universe as a whole, and more specifically the problem of creation ex nihilo. The conditions that would have caused the big bang, if it was the big bang that made our universe, are not analogous to a room full of tennis balls. It is theorized that the big bang was spawned out of a singularity resulting from a virtual particle that was "loaned" into existence by "borrowing" energy from a negative gravitational field. Which sounds like creation ex nihilo, but it's not.

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#618735 Apr 21, 2013
psalms 23 wrote:
<quoted text>
Keep seeking with an open mind and willing heart, check your motive i would think..
Are you seeking "just for" the curiousity of his existence?, or are you truly wanting what God wants to give you?
Have you asked yourself if you found the evidence you seek, are you willing to serve God?
You can't "truly want what god wants to give to you" if you don't believe he exists. You can't "be willing to serve" a being that you don't believe in. And it would be irresponsible to short circuit your mind with belief in something for which you have no real evidence for, simply so you can "find" proof for it.
Expert in all Things

Redding, CA

#618736 Apr 21, 2013
timn17 wrote:
<quoted text>You can't "truly want what god wants to give to you" if you don't believe he exists. You can't "be willing to serve" a being that you don't believe in. And it would be irresponsible to short circuit your mind with belief in something for which you have no real evidence for, simply so you can "find" proof for it.
But your belief has no real evidence, so why is your choice any better?

“ad victoriam”

Since: Dec 10

arte et marte

#618737 Apr 21, 2013
Pokay wrote:
<quoted text>Holy sh*t. You really are whacked. Molecules "never" became aware of themselves? What are we but a bunch of molecules? Matter fact that's what any good topix atheist will try to convince others of, that we are nothing but molecules and as such have no truly free will. And now you're saying we're not? What are we then, psycho man? However you want to slice it, call it molecules call it cells; if there really was an abiogenesis event (and it was not driven by an eternal consciousness) then there most definitely had to be an instant in time when these molecules or cells (which *are* groups of molecules, or don't you get that?) had become "aware". There exists awareness now and you claim awareness did'nt exist eternally, so there's is no such thing as becoming aware slowly. The very instant you *start* becoming aware, no matter how little or slowly, that is the instant you become aware. A nanometer of awareness is still awareness.
I'm not interested in your impression of what a topix atheist tries to do good or bad, but anyone who defines a human as a lump of molecules would have see a masterpiece work of art as a hunk of marble or a bunch of notes, while we can be reduced to a being defined as a lump of atoms I find that a moronic description of anything.
But when we speak of animals on the microscopic level such as Atoms and molecules, they follow the same forces of nature that govern all matter in the universe. When talking on a cellular level , they follow the instructions of information DNA has them perform and this or even the information is not conscious.
As well as DNA itself only part of a system where the parts are not conscious nor aware of anything other than its instructions to perform a task.

Indeed to become aware as a unit it first forms a neural lobe, and nervous system. The idea that atoms or molecules are aware is preposterous. It maybe that cells carry enough information to function that it be aware on the very most basic concept of aware because it must absorb nutrients, but again to call this conscious is also preposterous.

As I have said before the awareness and consciousness comes from a system of the senses delivered to the neural network where it is collected ,constructed, deciphered and interpreted in the brain.
There is no point in time when molecules or groups of molecules became "aware" as indeed to be aware, requires some sort of input of sensory device to be aware of. The only ability on a cellular level is to chemically communicate via special molecules such as hormones sent to signal the instructions programed by it's DNA or organs. These hormones penetrate cells and cause it to produce and activate proteins until it initiates a cellular response.

But calling any of that awareness is like saying molecules attract themselves and clump in space because they are consciously assembling themselves purposely in effort to become a asteroid.
They are just following chemical reactions and fundamental forces of nature. Only a functioning neural network is conscious and aware.

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#618738 Apr 21, 2013
Pokay wrote:
<quoted text>and
<quoted text>You guys are really flipping me out. If your boss IANS was here he would smack you and Aura and then fire you. How can anyone possibly know if a cat is self aware or has a sense of self? That is completely a subjective phenomenon. No one knows if I have a sense of being. But you assume I do sine you do and we are all humans. Heck everyone else in the world could be aliens or angels and this life could just be "my test". I don't believe that but it could be true for all I know. Get it? YOU really think animals have no sense of self? They might not but science cannot approach that.
I didn't say I "know," I said based on the evidence we have, most animals do not seem to be self aware. The tests that we have designed to test for self awareness have only been "passed" by a select few. Yes, "your" particular sense of self is completely subjective, but having a sense of self in general is not subjective. You either recognize yourself as a unique individual, or you do not. We can't possibly know what self awareness is "like" for other people and especially other animals, but we can try to test for it. I believe I mentioned the mirror test in my post, but if I did not, that is the main way we test for self awareness. It is not perfect, and the main criticism is that it may not be relevant for animals who do not use sight as their primary sense.

Your little blurb at the end about "aliens and angels" and the fact that I assume you have a sense of self is not relevant to this discussion. This has to do with theory of mind, the knowledge that other people have minds like ours, not whether or not certain animals have self awareness.

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#618739 Apr 21, 2013
Pokay wrote:
<quoted text>and
<quoted text>You guys are really flipping me out. If your boss IANS
Also, my "boss" IANS? You consistently act as if there is some hierarchy of atheists with a "playbook" who seek to put down your ideas. Goodness.

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#618740 Apr 21, 2013
Pokay wrote:
<quoted text>Holy sh*t. You really are whacked. Molecules "never" became aware of themselves? What are we but a bunch of molecules? Matter fact that's what any good topix atheist will try to convince others of, that we are nothing but molecules and as such have no truly free will. And now you're saying we're not? What are we then, psycho man? However you want to slice it, call it molecules call it cells; if there really was an abiogenesis event (and it was not driven by an eternal consciousness) then there most definitely had to be an instant in time when these molecules or cells (which *are* groups of molecules, or don't you get that?) had become "aware". There exists awareness now and you claim awareness did'nt exist eternally, so there's is no such thing as becoming aware slowly. The very instant you *start* becoming aware, no matter how little or slowly, that is the instant you become aware. A nanometer of awareness is still awareness.
Yes, but the foundations necessary for awareness could have been laid long before awareness was achieved.

Tell me when this thread is updated:

Subscribe Now Add to my Tracker

Add your comments below

Characters left: 4000

Please note by submitting this form you acknowledge that you have read the Terms of Service and the comment you are posting is in compliance with such terms. Be polite. Inappropriate posts may be removed by the moderator. Send us your feedback.

Top Stories Discussions

Title Updated Last By Comments
News Plurality of Americans think Trump is failing 24 min Lawrence Wolf 291
Poll Was 9/11 a conspiracy?? (Oct '07) 1 hr AussieBobby 286,315
News Roman Catholic church only true church, says Va... (Jul '07) 2 hr Michael 675,941
The Christian Atheist debate (Jun '15) 2 hr Catcher1 110,883
Bush is a hero (Sep '07) 3 hr UIDIOTRACEMAKEWOR... 184,782
Targeted Individuals, those illegally surveille... 3 hr targetedinvw 1
God is REAL - Miracles Happen! (Jun '11) 3 hr Tony 6,233
More from around the web