Prove there's a god.

“Life may be sweeter for this”

Since: Nov 08

Fennario

#573901 Dec 16, 2012
It aint necessarily so wrote:
Jesus may not even be the most important person in Christian history. Constantine probably did more for Christianity than Jesus.
lightbeamrider wrote:
Now you are talking about Christian history. That is not what Ehrman is referencing. He is referencing human history.
It aint necessarily so wrote:
Was there a point to that? In what way does that change anything in this discussion?
<crickets>

Incidentally, like most people, I tend to assume when you ignore a point that it is because you had no acceptable answer.
It aint necessarily so wrote:
If Jesus isn't the most important person in Christian history, he isn't the most important person inhuman history, either.
lightbeamrider wrote:
Then who is and why?
I already told you that both Paul and Constantine were more instrumental in establishing the Christian religion and its church
than Christ. Of the two, I think Constantine was the more important. Wasn't he the one that made Paul relevant and kept him off of the cutting room floor when the bible was being cobbled at the Council of Nicea? Jesus, too, for that matter. This is where it was decided which words would be imputed to Jesus and which would be ignored. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

“A sentient umbrella speaks”

Since: Mar 11

Some stable somewhere

#573902 Dec 16, 2012
Aura Mytha wrote:
<quoted text>
That isn't true , the theory civilization was born from war is wrong.
It didn't start that way , to prove it they had to find an untainted original civilization. One was finally found and the evidence shows it was peaceful , somehow greed took over though and they became the way you describe.
Caral proves civilization was born without the restraints we placed on it. It's sad it has become that way , perhaps it is the rivalry between different ones that made it become that way.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v =61x7jHvBcYYXX
Do you have a scientific reference I can read?

Sorry, but I just don't believe these "it used to be perfect" stories.

“Life may be sweeter for this”

Since: Nov 08

Fennario

#573903 Dec 16, 2012
lightbeamrider wrote:
Ignores the fact if it was not for Jesus; Paul would have nothing to write about.
So what? The same would be true about Mr. and Mrs. Christ, assuming anybody named Jesus was actually involved.

Even if such a man existed, we have no way of knowing which of the words attributed to him were ever actually spoken by him. Jesus is a shadowy character, and the words ascribed to him of unknown authenticity.

“Life may be sweeter for this”

Since: Nov 08

Fennario

#573904 Dec 16, 2012
lightbeamrider wrote:
Much of what Paul wrote about is similar to the teachings of Jesus.
More importantly, much is not.

Jesus taught in Matt. 5:18-19 that Old Testament law was still in effect:

"For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach [them], the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven."

But Paul had a different idea in Romans 10:4:

"For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness for every one who believes."

That's two radically different religions there - Jesus version, which includes the 613 Commandments called the Law of Moses - and Paul's, which dismissed them and starts over. Which tradition do you think you resemble more, the one that doesn't tolerate witches, working on the Sabbath, or sassy children, or the one that ignores those Commandments?

Since: Jun 12

Location hidden

#573905 Dec 16, 2012
MisterCharrington wrote:
Semper Fi Brother Beam
say some more stuff that Bart wrote down we're strapped for comedy.
Actually i was in the Navy. Go read Bart yourself. Bart is a double PH.D. who is agnostic with 30+ years experience and he is a gentleman. Although i do not agree with his interpretations, he certainly does make know what he is talking about which makes him a cut above Topix biblical illiterates who pontificate from positions of ignorance with impunity for the time being.

“A sentient umbrella speaks”

Since: Mar 11

Some stable somewhere

#573906 Dec 16, 2012
timn17 wrote:
<quoted text>No, god guides him here so that he can see the satanic evil of atheism first hand! Duh.
Meaning that Satan is actually manipulating God so that waaasssuuup finds His handiwork.

And I won't say "dddduuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu h!" to you since I want you to like me so I can pull you over to Satan's side.

Want some cherries? Wine? Pomegranate! Sex?

What's your pleasure, baby?

Just Results

“Jesus is Love”

Since: Jul 12

Hutchinson, MN

#573907 Dec 16, 2012
Sharkey wrote:
<quoted text>You are an atheist, too, because you don't believe in Allah.
YOU ARE AN INDIDEL AND YOU MUST DIE!
No...you are an atheist because you don't believe in Krishna.
MAY YOU SUFFER EVIL KARMA!
No...you are an atheist because you don't believe in Buddha.
MAY BUDDHA SMACK YOU WITH THE TRUNK OF HIS BO TREE!
Yes, Just Results, you may believe in "god" but you don't believe in those other "gods" so that makes you an atheist...to ALLAH, BUDDHA and KRISHNA!
JUST RESULTS IS AN ATHEIST!!!!!!!
Your ignorance is showing again.

Just Results is a Christian.

Just Results

“Jesus is Love”

Since: Jul 12

Hutchinson, MN

#573908 Dec 16, 2012
scaritual wrote:
<quoted text>
Then the Jesus doesn't fulfill OT Mashiach prophecy as required, you follow a false "Messiah".
I guess you think if you repeat this lie enough times, it will become true. You foliow a true "Destroyer"....Satan .

Stop humiliating yourself and become a courageous Christian,.....

drop your lies, drop your ignorance, remove yourself from your lifestyle of hatred and become a Christian.

Just Results

“Jesus is Love”

Since: Jul 12

Hutchinson, MN

#573909 Dec 16, 2012
Susie wrote:
<quoted text>I am not engaging in this battle with you. Jesus was Jewish and the Bible says anyone/nation who goes against His chosen people will not stand. I am sure God above would not like me to badger or harass the people who chose him before all others; his chosen people.
I am a gentile and the only way I can be seen before God is through his son and I am not playing a game of religion with someone I actually admire for the bloodline of my Christ; it is not right and God would not want me too; neither would Jesus. I have chosen my path and it will lead me to God. You do not have to believe me, I don't care. You do not have to accept Christ; that is your choice; you are not a gentile and from my understanding Jesus is not your key, but he is mine. I am not of Jewish decent so I do not know how that works and I won’t pretend. The way to God is through Christ and that is what I choose
It's awesome to be a Christian. Being on the winning side takes a lot of pressure off the mind, allowing a person to think freely.

“Life may be sweeter for this”

Since: Nov 08

Fennario

#573910 Dec 16, 2012
lightbeamrider wrote:
You have no objective standard for justice in th first place.
Nobody does, most certainly not the Christian church.
lightbeamrider wrote:
In the real world, might does make right. If you want to test that hypothesis just get in your car and run some red lights and speed down the road. Do it all the time until they catch you. Run some red lights. A man with a gun strapped to his side will pull you over and demand to see your Drivers License. If you smart off to him then you may get arrested which means you will be put in handcuffs and taken to jail. Might makes right!
Your ethics are simply atrocious. All that you are arguing here is that might is power, not that its use is necessarily right.

“Life may be sweeter for this”

Since: Nov 08

Fennario

#573911 Dec 16, 2012
lightbeamrider wrote:
You have to leech off objective standards while at the same time deny they really exist.
Au contraire.

Rational ethicists have been ignoring your bible and reshaping your brutal moral code for centuries now. We just saw Paul doing exactly that. He simply rejected the Old Law and the words of Jesus to obey it.

Good call, and entirely consistent with rational, compassionate ethics. The laws were counterproductive, somebody noticed, and they were jettisoned.

And such thought has been whittling away at your so called objective moral code ever since. Paul told you to stop stoning children. We were the ones that taught you that it is wrong to burn people alive and to own or beat slaves.

Your so called god gets zero credit for coming up with anything worth keeping. People already knew not to lie or murder, and to obey the Golden Rule long before your religion existed. What else is in that book worth preserving? Is there even one original idea in it worth keeping? If so, I don't know what it is.

So, as a matter of record, it is you throwbacks that are the ethical parasites. You have given us nothing. And there are still a few Christian values that need to be purged from Western culture: your hatred of mankind, your estrangement from the real material world, your hatred of science, your scapegoating of gays and atheists, your antisemitism, your misogyny, and your guilt provoking and frigidity producing sexual prudery for starters.

“The eye has it...”

Since: May 09

Russell's teapot

#573912 Dec 16, 2012
lightbeamrider wrote:
<quoted text> Actually i was in the Navy. Go read Bart yourself. Bart is a double PH.D. who is agnostic with 30+ years experience and he is a gentleman. Although i do not agree with his interpretations, he certainly does make know what he is talking about which makes him a cut above Topix biblical illiterates who pontificate from positions of ignorance with impunity for the time being.
Using the words of Bart Ehrman, who you often reference because he is an agnostic, as if it buttresses your position.

“The more I studied the manuscript tradition of the New Testament, the more I realized just how radically the text had been altered over the years at the hands of scribes, who were not only conserving scripture but also changing it." - Misquoting Jesus, the Story Behind Who Changed the Bible and Why, by Bart D. Ehrman

"My faith -- based on the inspired words of the Bible -- came under assault. That was especially true when I realized that in many cases, we don't have the original words. We have copies that were made hundreds of years later -- in most cases, many hundreds of years later. And these copies are all different from one another.”-“Misquoting Jesus”, the Story Behind Who Changed the Bible and Why, by Bart D. Ehrman

"Doctrines such as the divinity of Jesus and Heaven and Hell are not based on anything Jesus or his earlier followers said. At least 19 of the 27 books in the New Testament are forgeries. Believing the Bible is infallible is not a condition for being a Christian." - Jesus, Interrupted - by Bart D. Ehrman



Here's the best thing.

Your religion is being shown more and more to be a collection of bits and pieces of earlier religions and cultural beliefs, and not original.

The historical/archaeological evidence is growing and it shows nothing similar to what Christianity and Judaism have always purported things to be.

Maybe you should consider changing your name to .....







"LightDreamRider"

Just Results

“Jesus is Love”

Since: Jul 12

Hutchinson, MN

#573913 Dec 16, 2012
It aint necessarily so wrote:
<quoted text>
Au contraire.
Rational ethicists have been ignoring your bible and reshaping your brutal moral code for centuries now. We just saw Paul doing exactly that. He simply rejected the Old Law and the words of Jesus to obey it.
Good call, and entirely consistent with rational, compassionate ethics. The laws were counterproductive, somebody noticed, and they were jettisoned.
And such thought has been whittling away at your so called objective moral code ever since. Paul told you to stop stoning children. We were the ones that taught you that it is wrong to burn people alive and to own or beat slaves.
Your so called god gets zero credit for coming up with anything worth keeping. People already knew not to lie or murder, and to obey the Golden Rule long before your religion existed. What else is in that book worth preserving? Is there even one original idea in it worth keeping? If so, I don't know what it is.
So, as a matter of record, it is you throwbacks that are the ethical parasites. You have given us nothing. And there are still a few Christian values that need to be purged from Western culture: your hatred of mankind, your estrangement from the real material world, your hatred of science, your scapegoating of gays and atheists, your antisemitism, your misogyny, and your guilt provoking and frigidity producing sexual prudery for starters.
Are you aware that you will be in Hell after you die?

I bet you are enraged as to how the news coverage is showing how many people are praying to God for the victims families after your atheist buddy shot up 26 people.
Why do you teach the opposite of LOVE by bashing the word of God?

You are a mentally sick advocate of murder.

“The eye has it...”

Since: May 09

Russell's teapot

#573914 Dec 16, 2012
Just Results wrote:
<quoted text>
I guess you think if you repeat this lie enough times, it will become true. You foliow a true "Destroyer"....Satan .
Stop humiliating yourself and become a courageous Christian,.....
drop your lies, drop your ignorance, remove yourself from your lifestyle of hatred and become a Christian.
<Just Results> "robble robble HELL! robble robble GODZILLA! robble robble SATAN! robble XANADU! robble..."

“I see quantum effects”

Since: Jan 11

In the macro world.

#573915 Dec 16, 2012
Susie wrote:
<quoted text>That made me laugh really hard.. You are the least rational person on here...
No.

That would be Just Results.

Since: May 11

Ilkeston, UK

#573916 Dec 16, 2012
lightbeamrider wrote:
<quoted text> Actually i was in the Navy. Go read Bart yourself. Bart is a double PH.D. who is agnostic with 30+ years experience and he is a gentleman. Although i do not agree with his interpretations, he certainly does make know what he is talking about which makes him a cut above Topix biblical illiterates who pontificate from positions of ignorance with impunity for the time being.
you were?

Well the Marine Corps are just naval infantry after all.

What about when you were a Pershing Missile crewman?

“I see quantum effects”

Since: Jan 11

In the macro world.

#573917 Dec 16, 2012
Susie wrote:
<quoted text>It was the culture.. accepted then, troubling now.. Live and learn
But it is the perfect word of a perfect god.

An omniscient god.

What can an omniscient god possibly learn?

Since: Jun 12

Location hidden

#573918 Dec 16, 2012
It aint necessarily so wrote:
<quoted text>
More importantly, much is not.
Jesus taught in Matt. 5:18-19 that Old Testament law was still in effect:
And at that time it was. That was pre resurrection. Besides Jesus effectively declared all foods clean in Mark 7:18-19.''...whatever goes into a man cannot defile him. 19. Because it does not go into his heart, but into his stomach, and is eliminated?" (Thus He declared all foods clean) The meaning is obvious. Ceremonial law as it relates to circumcision, eating restrictions, animal sacrafice; all was not part of the program when it came to Gentile Christians. They were exclusively Jewish. The change is addressed in Acts 15 at the first council of Jerusalem. So you have two independent accounts of the change. Christianity is Jesus dependent and not self dependent through law keeping and animal sacrifice.
"For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach [them], the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven."
But Paul had a different idea in Romans 10:4:
"For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness for every one who believes."
That's two radically different religions there - Jesus version, which includes the 613 Commandments called the Law of Moses - and Paul's, which dismissed them and starts over. Which tradition do you think you resemble more, the one that doesn't tolerate witches, working on the Sabbath, or sassy children, or the one that ignores those Commandments?
Christianity is not an exact blueprint of Judaism. It came out of Judaism. I would say Paul's, along with the council of Jerusalem was a practical application from the Old to resurrected Christianity in which animal sacrifice was effectively abolished and non Jews were brought in. So yeah there is change but the circumstances changed. Jesus was a pacifist, for one thing. There is no theocratic Christian nation like Israel was a Theocracy from before the time of the Kings. So even in Israel circumstances changed as did regulation. If it was not for Jesus and the Old Testament then Paul would have nothing to teach about. Besides if you think New Testament Christians should be circumcised, keep kosher diets, which is actually not a bad idea since kosher foods are actually healthy. Imagine that. A healthy diet written thousands of years ago. Well that is all just crazy. I would also add staying away from occult practices is also a good idea since one subjects themselves to powerful influences or spirits which have their own agenda and that does not include the best interest of the person. Your agenda is not to learn anything. It is hostile. Where are you getting your informtion from? Who is feeding you? What outside source are you referencing? Five to one it is a hostile site.
feces for jesus

East Meadow, NY

#573919 Dec 16, 2012
Just Results wrote:
<quoted text>
Are you aware that you will be in Hell after you die?
I bet you are enraged as to how the news coverage is showing how many people are praying to God for the victims families after your atheist buddy shot up 26 people.
Why do you teach the opposite of LOVE by bashing the word of God?
You are a mentally sick advocate of murder.
Your ignorance is only eclipsed by your stupidity.

Since: Jun 12

Location hidden

#573920 Dec 16, 2012
scaritual wrote:
<quoted text>
Using the words of Bart Ehrman, who you often reference because he is an agnostic, as if it buttresses your position.
“The more I studied the manuscript tradition of the New Testament, the more I realized just how radically the text had been altered over the years at the hands of scribes, who were not only conserving scripture but also changing it." - Misquoting Jesus, the Story Behind Who Changed the Bible and Why, by Bart D. Ehrman
"My faith -- based on the inspired words of the Bible -- came under assault. That was especially true when I realized that in many cases, we don't have the original words. We have copies that were made hundreds of years later -- in most cases, many hundreds of years later. And these copies are all different from one another.”-“Misquoting Jesus”, the Story Behind Who Changed the Bible and Why, by Bart D. Ehrman
"Doctrines such as the divinity of Jesus and Heaven and Hell are not based on anything Jesus or his earlier followers said. At least 19 of the 27 books in the New Testament are forgeries. Believing the Bible is infallible is not a condition for being a Christian." - Jesus, Interrupted - by Bart D. Ehrman
Here's the best thing.
Your religion is being shown more and more to be a collection of bits and pieces of earlier religions and cultural beliefs, and not original.
The historical/archaeological evidence is growing and it shows nothing similar to what Christianity and Judaism have always purported things to be.
Maybe you should consider changing your name to .....
"LightDreamRider"
You are a biblical illiterate who only quotes from sites which validate youir hostile opinion. When it comes to resurrection Ehrman says he does not know what happened. That is the bottom line.

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