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Since: Jul 10

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#570192
Dec 6, 2012
 

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nanoanomaly wrote:
<quoted text>You are a lunatic if you are attracted to the faux kitten.
Though I may also be a lunatic.

“let's do this thang!”

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#570193
Dec 6, 2012
 
Skitz wrote:
<quoted text>
Paki babes?
That's the kind of talk that lands you in a lot of trouble where I'm from.
we (currently) have some freedoms of speech where i'm from. "infidel" is unacceptable language tho, and all girls get the same treatment. therefore, don't bring your daughters to America if you don't want them to be American;)
Evo-Lotion is Rub-ish

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#570194
Dec 6, 2012
 
It aint necessarily so wrote:
<quoted text>
What accident? The appearance of a new trait in a population? That's not natural selection. That's the substrate of natural selection.
The selection process is relatively deterministic, like the selection process that separates out rocks, pebbles, sand and silt on a river bottom. Individual movements of these subject to the caprices of various flows and eddies appear random. But the continual unidirectional influence of gravity over time makes the outcome pretty inevitable and predictable.
Natural selection is like gravity in the analogy, and it produces semi-predictable results. It continually exerts pressure to prefer faster, smarter and generally more talented forms over their competition. Over eons, that would be expected to produce some pretty talented creatures.
<quoted text>
I agree. And see how easy that was to say.
But none of that suggests that natural selection is anything more than an accident.

An accident is understood to be that which occurs "without a deliberate plan or cause."

You still must tell us:

1 – Does this “natural selection” yours exists, in an objectively verifiable manner via the scientific method.

2 - What it is exactly and how that was determined in an objective manner via the scientific method.

3 - The mechanisms it used to do whatever it is you think it did, how it used them, when it used them, and how all this was determined in an objective manner via the scientific method.

Since: Jul 12

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#570195
Dec 6, 2012
 
It aint necessarily so wrote:
<quoted text>
That was thoughtful to wait like that, don't you think? We know how your god hates any talk of sex.
LOL, you're nuts. Sex is a wonderful blessing given to us by the Lord that serves to express intimacy to another. The purpose of sex is to glorify God, bring forth children, express intimacy, provide comfort, and bless the spouse.
Why was your god so easy to remove from schools? They can't get rid of drugs, grade inflation, or bullying, but we're to believe that the creator of the universe was expelled. I don't buy it.
Easy?!? It's still being fought today... Teachers & schools get ridiculed about having a cross in a classroom. God isn't removed, but you people still try.
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#570196
Dec 6, 2012
 
It aint necessarily so wrote:
<quoted text>
I saw a horse running down my street in full gallop this week. I run through an intersection at full speed and plow into a truck. It ran off, so I hope it was OK. The truck was shiny and new except where the horse had seriously dented a panel. The driver was shaken up, but fine.
I have never seen that before, and I don't expect to see it again - I hope. I am so grateful that the tuck didn't hit the horse.
Incidentally, the horse had the right-of-way. Where I live in Mexico, very few intersections have lights or signs. The east-west traffic has the right-of-way, at least in our pueblo. The truck was headed south and the horse west. The truck was supposed to slow or stop when it approached the intersection.
<quoted text>
What accident? Evolution is not an accident any more than the hydrodynamic sifting of river sediments is an accident.
An "accident" is that which occurs "WITHOUT a deliberate plan or cause."

So if evolution is not an accident, does evolution occur "WITH (or according) to a DELIBERATE plan or cause"?

“let's do this thang!”

Since: Aug 10

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#570197
Dec 6, 2012
 

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GemmaGems wrote:
<quoted text>
That's why it called faith. Prove you are capable of Aristotelian thought, and stop asking questions that you could answer yourself, with a minimal amount of critical thinking.
holy cow - is that a pic of you???

what's your mom look like?;)
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#570198
Dec 6, 2012
 
It aint necessarily so wrote:
<quoted text>
It usually is. Populations grow to the capacity of their environments to support them, at which time, resources become relatively scarce, and some organisms will outcompete others for them.
Individuals compete for food, for shelter, and for mates. And zebras running from a cheetah are competing with one another as surely as athletes in a race, but for a different prize. Do you like jokes?
Two campers are walking through the forest when they suddenly encounter a grizzly bear. The bear rears up on his hind legs and lets out a terrifying roar. Both campers are frozen in their tracks. The first camper whispers, "I'm sure glad I wore my running shoes today."
"It doesn't matter what kind of shoes you're wearing, you're not gonna outrun that bear," replies the second.
"I don't have to outrun the bear, I just have to outrun YOU," he answers.
That's competition, too!
All kidding aside, notice that the competition is not the one between the bear and the loser of the race. It's between the runners. And it's not for food. It's to avoid being food.
<quoted text>
I don't understand what you are telling me there.
Ok. I understand the "competition" thing a little better now, though not completely.
But how does that cause evolution or natural selection or whatever it causes?

And so what if an organism "evolves"? The environment is always changing so there is no guarantee that the offspring will have any better chances of surviving than the parents. SO here we are with the accidental thing again.

ACCIDENT not EVOLUTION/NATURAL SELECTION.

Furthermore, I have yet to hear the scientific account of the origin of matter and energy; can you help me with that?

“Life may be sweeter for this”

Since: Nov 08

Fennario

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#570200
Dec 6, 2012
 

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RiversideRedneck wrote:
<quoted text>
WTF?
So you think a Christian can't be a dentist, doctor or scientist?
A devout, fundie Christian can't be MY doctor. Who's the pathologist with an IP address in North Dakota that posts on some of these threads. He doesn't trust science, and knows very little.

I would never let a religious doctor know that I was a skeptic. I doubt that he would kill me, but I would expect him to discriminate against me, maybe with pain or other comfort medication. So, I would tell him that I was born again.

That could backfire, too, if he though he was sending me to bliss. Then I might wind up dead.

Also, I want somebody with a leader mentality, not a lamb from a flock.

The best bet is to avoid religious physicians altogether.

With a Christian dentist, you're fine if you wear a cross or give him a "Praise the Lord!" or two. Can you imagine having Just Results as your dentist, and confiding in him that you were a skeptic? He'd drill up through your hard palate.
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#570201
Dec 6, 2012
 
It aint necessarily so wrote:
<quoted text>
... The only accidents are the appearance of traits in environments that can be exploited by them. The rest is pretty deterministic.
There are other accidents at play. A great new biological innovation may have appeared in the third pup of a certain wolf litter that would have eventually changed the wolf gene pool in an important and useful way had the pup not been so unlucky as to have a boulder fall on it and kill it before it mated.
But eventually, that mutation will reappear - another accident - and if it is very beneficial, it will work its way into the gene pool at that time. That's the relatively deterministic side of evolution, in which various accidents still lead to more or less the same outcome. That's what the application of a steady bias does. It selects differentially, and converts random inputs into semi-predictable outputs. Selection is related to sorting.
<quoted text>
Those are synonyms - "fitness" and "ability to survive." They don't contribute to one another.
But thats where you lose me.

How do you come to the conclusion that a random process can generate any form of predictability or facilitate any degree of prediction?

You will need to clarify what you mean by "the appearance of traits in environments".

And if the appearance of traits in the environment are accidental, how can you conclude that the whole is not accidental when all things are necessarily the appearance of traits in environments?

IF THEY THINGS THAT ARE DEPENDED UPON/EXPLOITED ARE ACCIDENTAL (The only accidents are the appearance of traits in environments that can be exploited by them); HOW CAN THE SURVIVAL OF THE "EXPLOITER" NOT BE ACCIDENTAL?

“Life may be sweeter for this”

Since: Nov 08

Fennario

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#570202
Dec 6, 2012
 
RiversideRedneck wrote:
My little brother, his wife & 5 kids feast off a Santa.
That sounds unhygienic.

Since: Jul 12

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#570204
Dec 6, 2012
 
It aint necessarily so wrote:
<quoted text>
A devout, fundie Christian can't be MY doctor. Who's the pathologist with an IP address in North Dakota that posts on some of these threads. He doesn't trust science, and knows very little.
I would never let a religious doctor know that I was a skeptic. I doubt that he would kill me, but I would expect him to discriminate against me, maybe with pain or other comfort medication. So, I would tell him that I was born again.
That could backfire, too, if he though he was sending me to bliss. Then I might wind up dead.
Also, I want somebody with a leader mentality, not a lamb from a flock.
The best bet is to avoid religious physicians altogether.
With a Christian dentist, you're fine if you wear a cross or give him a "Praise the Lord!" or two. Can you imagine having Just Results as your dentist, and confiding in him that you were a skeptic? He'd drill up through your hard palate.
You must've misunderstood the question, lets try again.

So you think a Christian can't be a dentist, doctor or scientist?

Since: Jul 12

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#570205
Dec 6, 2012
 
It aint necessarily so wrote:
<quoted text>
That sounds unhygienic.
Ya, they get the red & white fibers stuck in their teeth....

Since: Jul 12

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#570206
Dec 6, 2012
 
Botz r us wrote:
Why are you spreading pictures of little girls?

OCB

“What a GLORIOUS day!!!”

Since: Apr 12

Orlando but NYC born & raised

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#570207
Dec 6, 2012
 
It aint necessarily so wrote:
<quoted text>
A devout, fundie Christian can't be MY doctor. Who's the pathologist with an IP address in North Dakota that posts on some of these threads. He doesn't trust science, and knows very little.
I would never let a religious doctor know that I was a skeptic. I doubt that he would kill me, but I would expect him to discriminate against me, maybe with pain or other comfort medication. So, I would tell him that I was born again.
That could backfire, too, if he though he was sending me to bliss. Then I might wind up dead.
Also, I want somebody with a leader mentality, not a lamb from a flock.
The best bet is to avoid religious physicians altogether.
With a Christian dentist, you're fine if you wear a cross or give him a "Praise the Lord!" or two. Can you imagine having Just Results as your dentist, and confiding in him that you were a skeptic? He'd drill up through your hard palate.
I've been to quite a few doctors in my 58 years.

Some were white, some were black, some Indian. NEVER have I seen ANY sort of religious material of ANY kind in ANY doctor's office I've been in- and that includes dentists as well.

I also have never had a doctor talk to me about religion, or god or what religion I am or ANYTHING having ANYTHING to do with religion.

That is totally IRRELEVANT as to why I go to doctors just as it is totally IRRELEVANT as to the services doctors offer.

I think doctors and patients discussing their religious affiliations is totally inappropriate and IRRELEVANT as to why people go to doctors or why doctors treat people.

Would I continue to see a doctor if he has religious stuff in his office? Yes- assuming I was satisfied with his skills, experience and knowledge as a HEALTH CARE practitioner.

Would I continue to see a doctor if he tried to sell me on his religious beliefs or ask inappropriate questions about MY religious beliefs- which is NONE of their BUSINESS just as their religious beliefs are none of MY business?

Probably not. Such unprofessional and inappropriate behavior would have me starting to question their MEDICAL expertise and I would find such discussion to be a loathsome "bedside manner".

When all is said and done, people go to doctors for MEDICAL TREATMENT- not for any sort of religious counseling or discussions about religion or our respective religious beliefs.

And when all is said and done, doctors treat people to cure them of physical ailments as well as to provide preventive care and not to discuss ANYTHING of an IRRELEVANT personal nature with their patients.

The religious beliefs of patients are IRRELEVANT unless the patient is opposed to a particular treatment based on their religious beliefs.

In such cases, it is then the responsibility of the PATIENT to disclose their religious beliefs if they are refusing treatment their doctor recommends.

That is the ONLY circumstance in which it would be deemed appropriate for a doctor to discuss religion with their patient and of course, that would be the PATIENT bringing up the topic- NOT the doctor.

If there are people who think the religion of their doctor matters, why not include the bagger at their local supermarket and every other person they conduct business with or rely on to provide services- like their mechanic, their pest control guy, etc?
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#570208
Dec 6, 2012
 
It aint necessarily so wrote:
<quoted text>
What are you saying here? That random input always yields random output? If so, that is incorrect. Consider a ratchet wheel http://www.technologystudent.com/cams/ratch1.... Random turns of the crank will not result in random motions of the wheel. Differential selection is at play, and only counterclockwise torques are translated into movement, all of which is in one direction.
Do you know what a rectifier is in electronics? From Wiki:
"A rectifier is an electrical device that converts alternating current (AC), which periodically reverses direction, to direct current (DC), which flows in only one direction"
This is a differential selection process as well.
Consider mathematical squaring of a number. It converts all numbers into positive numbers.
These are all the actions of a unidirectional selection process - a bias - differentially selecting, and converting an much more variable input into a more predictable output. Where did the accidents go?
I have checked that link and it mentions nothing about differential selection (though the concept may apply to a certain degree).

I find your analogy to the ratchet wheel to be quite inadequate and absolutely irrelevant.

THE RATCHET WHEEL IS specifically and INTENTIONALLY DESIGNED to operate that way; you are arguing that THE PROCESSES OF NATURE ARE UNAIDED BY or independent of INTELLIGENCE or DELIBERATE INPUT by the intelligent.

Ratchet wheel = Intelligent design

Natural processes =/= Intelligent design (according to you anyway)

Is there anything in nature that works like ratchet wheel as it relates to evolution and natural selection? Where is it? What is it? How was it discovered?

Furthermore I found nothing regarding "differential selction"; however I did find something about "selection differential". But "selection differential" has more to do with a smethod of analysing statistics than a natural process.

"selection differential: The difference between the average value of a quantitative character in the whole population and the average value of those selected to reproduce the next generation."
[http://www.encyclopedia.com/d oc/1O7-selectiondifferential.h tml]

WTF does that have to do with ratchet handles and randomly generated events?
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#570209
Dec 6, 2012
 
It aint necessarily so wrote:
<quoted text>
I don't follow this argument. Why wouldn't biological evolution proceed once a population of biological replicators was established? You seem to be saying that something like a boulder should outcompete something like a rabbit because the rabbit is fragile and mortal. Is that correct?
I am saying that something like a boulder is outcompeting a rabit because the rabit is fragile and mortal.

Thats exactly my point.

What is alive will die no matter how "fit" it becomes, but the dead will never die.

What is the source or cause of this 'philobiological'(life loving) force/influence that gives rise to the living, when the inanimate are more durable?

“Life may be sweeter for this”

Since: Nov 08

Fennario

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#570210
Dec 6, 2012
 

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nanoanomaly wrote:
Yer an idiot if you think a legless, armless, yet fertile halfwit is "fit".
Is this more of your victimhood crap? You probably should seek validation elsewhere.

“Life may be sweeter for this”

Since: Nov 08

Fennario

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#570211
Dec 6, 2012
 

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nanoanomaly wrote:
Oh look! It's the self-pitying, persecuted *doktor* who claims I interfere with his "publishing process".
What are you babbling about now? What publishing process? How could you affect me or impact any aspect of my life in any way other than to provoke nausea?

As for feeling persecuted, hardly. I am the luckiest man I know. If you saw my life, you would end yours.

OCB

“What a GLORIOUS day!!!”

Since: Apr 12

Orlando but NYC born & raised

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#570212
Dec 6, 2012
 

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It aint necessarily so wrote:
<quoted text>
What are you babbling about now? What publishing process? How could you affect me or impact any aspect of my life in any way other than to provoke nausea?
As for feeling persecuted, hardly. I am the luckiest man I know. If you saw my life, you would end yours.
But nano doesn't babble- nano SPEWS.

Of course, the end result is still the same- whether babbling or spewing, when nano opens his/her/its mouth to speak, only nonsense utters forth.

Since: Nov 12

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#570213
Dec 6, 2012
 
The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honorable, but still primitive legends which are nevertheless pretty childish. No interpretation no matter how subtle can (for me) change this.

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