Prove there's a god.

[It aint necessarily so]

It aint necessarily so wrote:

I used to feel that way, too, but not so much any more. The division along political and religious lines trumps being a fellow American. I happen to be politically liberal and an atheist. I wouldn't expect American Christians or conservatives to stand by me.

Am I wrong? How can we know? I doubt that asking conservatives or Christians would help. I'm pretty sure that I know what their answer has to be, however they actually feel.

Christians and conservatives have been taking shots at both groups, including some of the most prominent of them saying the most outrageous things about us with almost no blow back. Romney recently made an outrageous comment about Obama voters and gift, and look at the hullabaloo. And when Don Imus said something about nappy-headed hos, there was a bruhahah.

But neither of these comments raised much of ruckus:

“No, I don’t know that atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered as patriots. This is one nation under God.”– George H. W. Bush

"Whether they are defending the Soviet Union or bleating for Saddam Hussein, liberals are always against America. They are either traitors or idiots, and on the matter of America's self-preservation, the difference is irrelevant." - Ann Coulter

Should I expect support from such people, or the tens of millions that are happy enough with them to elect one of them to the White House and put eight books by the other on best seller lists?

Here's a little refreshing honesty I just read on another thread
http://www.topix.com/forum/religion/atheism/T... :

Adam wrote in response to something vile from Christian derek4: "lol. Brotherly love on display."

derek4 replied: "I'm not brothers with the godless."

That's what I thought, and why I'm pretty sure that the Christians would not stand beside a "fellow American" who is more fully known as a vile, godless abomination in the eyes of an infinitely good and loving god that judges him fit for eternal torment just because he was born in Alabama and I was born in California.

Who would risk his life for - or even take the part of - somebody that he has been conditioned to think of in such terms? Once you understand this, doesn't the feeling tend to become mutual?

[Catcher1]

It aint necessarily so wrote:

<quoted text>
I used to feel that way, too, but not so much any more. The division along political and religious lines trumps being a fellow American. I happen to be politically liberal and an atheist. I wouldn't expect American Christians or conservatives to stand by me.
Am I wrong? How can we know? I doubt that asking conservatives or Christians would help. I'm pretty sure that I know what their answer has to be, however they actually feel.
Christians and conservatives have been taking shots at both groups, including some of the most prominent of them saying the most outrageous things about us with almost no blow back. Romney recently made an outrageous comment about Obama voters and gift, and look at the hullabaloo. And when Don Imus said something about nappy-headed hos, there was a bruhahah.
But neither of these comments raised much of ruckus:
“No, I don’t know that atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered as patriots. This is one nation under God.”– George H. W. Bush
"Whether they are defending the Soviet Union or bleating for Saddam Hussein, liberals are always against America. They are either traitors or idiots, and on the matter of America's self-preservation, the difference is irrelevant." - Ann Coulter
Should I expect support from such people, or the tens of millions that are happy enough with them to elect one of them to the White House and put eight books by the other on best seller lists?

Your doubts will be quickly confirmed if you visit the "Bush Is a Hero" thread.

[Double Fine]

Aura Mytha wrote:

<quoted text>
You are making two mistakes here Ians, and you will have to agree with me that your assessment is unfair.
First you are putting and comparing politicians in with the Americans I was referring to ,which in a humanist view are still people (even if they are the lowest order of them).
Secondly you are believing the politicians failed attempts at far right wing rhetoric and propaganda to apply and mean anything to us people in the real world.
It's true the GOP has moved farther right wing
than is desired and some of the politicians have moved close to fascism , but to me they even though are like my embarrassing drunken brother. In fact are still my brother , and are on the same team , so their stupidity is overlooked in that respect.
I see it differently I guess , and the attitude that other Americans can't be on the same team is exactly the problem both candidates have spoken of. The problem of reaching across the isles beyond party lines and actually doing something that has meaning is a paramount concern and is the quality of a statesman.

Okay, quick question. Do you think people like United in Faith, Timesten, Simply Said, Bongo, Just Results, bossdrop would have your back in a war?

[Flagler Beach]

Aerobatty wrote:

<quoted text>
Tax exempt status ring a bell?

And it should stay that way since only the faith based organizations do anything to help clean up the messes after disasters in this country. You atheists sit back and do nothing but bash those who are helping.

[waaasssuuup]

scaritual wrote:

<quoted text>
Your Jesus is showing.
Well done.
Maybe you should pray.

your anti-christ is showing & it's much worse than my failures at attempting to be true.

[It aint necessarily so]

Aura Mytha wrote:

You are making two mistakes here Ians, and you will have to agree with me that your assessment is unfair. First you are putting and comparing politicians in with the Americans I was referring to ,which in a humanist view are still people (even if they are the lowest order of them).

Actually, I was referring to all of the people that agree with that politician and that author.

Sure, people are still people. You said, "As a fellow American you are my brother ... I would have your back covered and walk point for you."

That's fine, but commented "I used to feel that way, too, but not so much any more."

And I just offered Christian derek4's comment that he's "not brothers with the godless"

Will you risk your life for somebody like that because he happens to be American? I won't. In fact, if it were necessary to go to war to unseat his religion - if there were no other way to prevent his church from training generations more of his descendants to think that way about our descendants, that would be a war I would support.

I don't want to help him at all except in one way if possible: lead him out of the religion that taught him to think that way. If he remains as he is, and we both know that he likely will until the grave, I have nothing else for him.

Is that a character flaw on my part? Maybe. But if so, I don't feel any burden to work on it. Sorry, but even as a secular humanist, not all life is sacred to me. If somebody wants to take derek4's life, he can have somebody that he DOES consider a brother defend it.

[It aint necessarily so]

Aura Mytha wrote:

Secondly you are believing the politicians failed attempts at far right wing rhetoric and propaganda to apply and mean anything to us people in the real world. It's true the GOP has moved farther right wing than is desired and some of the politicians have moved close to fascism , but to me they even though are like my embarrassing drunken brother. In fact are still my brother , and are on the same team , so their stupidity is overlooked in that respect.

"to me they even though are like my embarrassing drunken brother. In fact are still my brother, and are on the same team , so their stupidity is overlooked in that respect."

Then you're a better man than I. Loyalty, fidelity, integrity: those things matter to me. I don't love my enemies. I think it's bad advice. But maybe I'm wrong there.

[It aint necessarily so]

Aura Mytha wrote:

I see it differently I guess , and the attitude that other Americans can't be on the same team is exactly the problem both candidates have spoken of. The problem of reaching across the isles beyond party lines and actually doing something that has meaning is a paramount concern and is the quality of a statesman.

I'm talking about the attitudes of "fellow Americans" that are also Christians and conservatives. When I lived in rural Missouri from 1998 to 2009, I really only got two stations on my radio that I could receive well enough to listen to in the daytime. One was a Jesus station, and the other featured Dennis "the pseudolibertarian" Prager in the morning, Rush "Ditto" Limbaugh at lunch time, and Sean "You're a great American" Hannity in the evening.

I was in the car most weekdays at those times, and heard them all. And I can tell you that I don't like or trust people that buy into that. I heard thousands of people over the years refer to liberals and skeptics as un-American, anti-American, parasites, a disease, traitors, and everything else but fellow American. And I remember the abuse heaped on names like Gore, Kerry, Hillary Clinton, Bill Clinton, Barney Frank, Tom Daschle, Paul Wellstone, Harry Reid, Nancy Pelosi and Barack Obama. The seething hatred was palpable. It was also directed at celebrity liberals like Susan Sarandon, Natalie Mains, Cindy Sheehan, and Sean Penn. The die was pretty well cast from all of those experiences. It was perfectly OK to hate liberals.

And though I don't hate conservatives, I don't trust or respect them, either. It would be pretty unnatural ask me to risk my life for such people or cover their backs in any way.

[waaasssuuup]

River Tam wrote:

<quoted text>
Who said I was a humanist? Who said I want the freedom of speech for christians removed?
WTF are you babbling about?

you came at me with the ole "my bigotry is okay because it's a good bigotry" routine and i called you on it; that's what i'm babbling about;)

[RiversideRedneck]

boooots wrote:

<quoted text>
Having had both a wife and and daughter who worked in what you call Children's Services, I would think that if wind got to them of a father who sent his kid to school with instructions to break a kid's nose if bullied, the father, or family, would be getting a visit from Children's Services.

So be it. Send them on out. I've already had this discusion with CPS. There's NOTHING wrong with defending yourself.

BTW - I've never sent my son to school with "instructions to break a kid's nose". You're not reading...

In a free society with laws and laws against violence, teaching a child that a violent act should be treated with another violent act, as opposed to getting the proper authorities to act on laws that are in place, especially today to deal with such situations is bad parenting, and has the potential of creating a violent adult in your child.

You know what the schools & cops do about bullies?

Nothing.

Until it's too late.

F_ck 'em. And everyone that looks like 'em.

[waaasssuuup]

River Tam wrote:

<quoted text>
How many gay people do you know that want to marry the opposite sex? It's a law tailored exclusively for straights. Why do you want special rights?

why do you want to re-create the fate of sodom & gomorrah in our america??? "as it was in the days of Sodom so shall it be in the end" Jesus

go be a homo-activist in japan....

[RiversideRedneck]

boooots wrote:

<quoted text>
You got lucky because I think you should have been put on watch by Children's Services and your son should have received professional counseling about what is appropriate and what isn't appropriate behavior.

I don't wanna hear abour your cowardly parental tactics, boooots.

My sons are American and as such WILL defend themselves when necessary & are prepared to do so.

You can keep you Canadian "run away" tactics all you want. Don't peddle them at me.

[RiversideRedneck]

boooots wrote:

<quoted text>
Sorry the 'be French' went right over my head, and I didn't advise what you claimed I did.

Of course it did.

The French have become the p_ssy laughing stock. They are cowards & they run from a fight and ask for everyone else's help instead of standing their own ground.

[OCB]

RiversideRedneck wrote:

<quoted text>
So be it. Send them on out. I've already had this discusion with CPS. There's NOTHING wrong with defending yourself.
BTW - I've never sent my son to school with "instructions to break a kid's nose". You're not reading...
<quoted text>
You know what the schools & cops do about bullies?
Nothing.
Until it's too late.
F_ck 'em. And everyone that looks like 'em.

So you advocate people taking the law into their own hands.

Not sure how you reconcile your bent toward fascism with your bent toward anarchy while being totally clueless as to the middle ground.

[RiversideRedneck]

Al Garcia wrote:

<quoted text>
I've been to Blacks beach it's a pain to get to the shore from the bluffs and after a harrowing climb down you can try to relax but......
Down the way in Corona there's Glen Eden Sun Club. That's way better.

Al.... Have you been to Glen Ivy? ugh that place. My wife & I went just a few months ago. That place is gross. It seems like a disease infested place, especially the mud bath pool. And it's very expensive. I spent over $200 that day & didn't feel that relaxed.

An Oriental happy ending massage is cheaper & more relaxing.

...or so I've heard :)

[RiversideRedneck]

boooots wrote:

<quoted text>
Let's let that one go, okay; you appear all the time to be less and less of a believer, and just here to get people upset, and you have picked a side and throw in anything and everything regardless of how ridiculous.
Though I do not advocate church attendance now, because I do not believe there is a God, for those who do believe, in order to maintain the faith, and pass it on to the next generations, which would be what I expect true Christians would want, then you have to participate in the body of the church. If everyone decided they could believe in God and stay to themselves, yes, that is okay for them, but the religion would die out very quickly (by all means keep preaching what you are, because that would be a good thing).
The church continues because, at least until recently, it has had a strong organization which keeps the information and passes it on. An organization which members never show up for meetings dies very quickly. God is not just going to be passed on by osmosis, or by walking past someone who happens to be a believer. It takes organization and a lot of hard work to keep something that has no basis in fact going, and that won't happen, if everyone thinks they can do it alone.

Don't get me wrong, the church is a great place to go & learn about God.

I just don't go to church. I feel that they have become corrupted.

That's it.

[waaasssuuup]

River Tam wrote:

<quoted text>
The norm.
I'm not a plumber. Females go inside females too. Males go inside males. We just use different tools.
All gays know each other, right?

aren't you sssssoooooo special!!!

why are we talking so much about your gayness? whotf cares?
can we move on to much more higher & nobler issues like....knowing God? if you need to hook-up, most of the rest of the internet is all about that.......

[RiversideRedneck]

boooots wrote:

<quoted text>
The act of expressing your opinion is not wrong, but denigrating and discriminating against gays, because they have a different sexual orientation, is wrong, and that is what you are promoting.

In what way am I "denigrating and discriminating against gays"??????

[RiversideRedneck]

Boooots wrote:
I was taught as a very young child to turn the other cheek, so when I was bullied I just let them do it.

RiversideRedneck wrote:
You were raised to be a sissy?

It aint necessarily so wrote:

No, he was raised to be a Christian doormat. Christian ethics teach submission to Massah. That's why you are admonished to take whatever is dished out to you, and be grateful for the abuse when you do.
The Sermon on the Mount is a set of instructions from the ruling class to the peasant class on how to think and behave as they are being exploited and discriminated against.

No, he was raised to be a coward & to run away from a fight and go tattle.

[waaasssuuup]

River Tam wrote:

<quoted text>
I'm open to adaptation and improvisation.

of course you are! that's what being 'gay' is all about S E X!!!