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Since: Oct 12

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#563446
Nov 16, 2012
 

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timn17 wrote:
<quoted text>I said that the mecca thing was an extreme example - you wouldn't have a snowball's chance to stop the pilgrimage. I was just illustrating a point - some people feel as though they are being surrounded by a tradition they don't follow, and they either have to go along with it or risk being ostracized. Again, I don't really care and actually enjoy Christmas, but I sympathize with the people who would like the holiday season to be more inclusive.
Also, the US was not founded on christian principles. The founders made several very clear statements to this effect - and they codified their belief in the separation of church and state in the constitution.
I very seriously doubt that the "banning" of using the name of god has anything to do with the condition of the country. The 9/11 thing is an interesting example of how people respond to disasters - patriotism, jingoism, and very direct displays of religious sentiment were very common. It was an attempt to affirm our "national identity" in the face of a threat. That's why it became "ok" to "talk about god" so openly.
Just stating how I feel about the situation. Separation of church and state came after the U.S. was founded. It clearly states in the Declaration of Independence "The laws of nature and the laws of nature’s God". As far as codifying goes in the Constitution, I believe you are referring to the First Amendment, which, in it, says, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof...". The point of such an amendment is twofold. First, it ensures that religious beliefs - private or organized - are removed from attempted government control. This is the reason why the government cannot tell either you or your church what to believe or to teach. Second, it ensures that the government does not get involved with enforcing, mandating, or promoting particular religious doctrines. This is what happens when the government "establishes" a church - and because doing so created so many problems in Europe, the authors of the Constitution wanted to try and prevent the same from happening here. So this country was founded UNDER God yet our forefathers needed to clarify a few things first before leaving such a statement open for scrutiny and attack. The founding fathers wanted this nation to be under God but have no particular denomination be the ruling or the only excepted religion, that all religions were acceptable. As far as Christmas goes, I just feel that the U.S. should stop worrying about offending people. The only thing Christmas has to do with Christianity is that it "represents"/symboli zes the birth of Jesus. Christmas was derived from Paganism in actuality. There was also some speculation that Jesus was born in the summer time (I think I read June/July) and not actually December. There is a book out there called "The Jesus Papers" which states that Jesus wasn't even crucified, that he actually died of old age (not saying I believe this - never finished reading the book). People have been surrounded with Christmas for many years. Why now make a stink? I think it's because people need something to bitch about and they'll go to any length to complain. People LOVE to whine and moan. Yes, 9/11 did bring people together that particular day and days to follow, however, when hurricane Sandy hit, there was a ton of looting, shootings and stabbings over the gas shortage. I know someone's nephew who was stabbed over gas. I say, "Way to come together people". Where was the patronage there? What that tells me is that when a "supposed other country attacks" (larger scale - I still believe the U.S. government was behind it), we come together but when mother nature attacks (smaller scale), we stand alone. The double standard is sickening. ANYWAY, not looking to go tit for tat. We can just agree to disagree.

“I speak my mind”

Since: Sep 10

It hurts to bite my tongue

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#563447
Nov 16, 2012
 
Happy Lesbo wrote:
<quoted text>
.. as I see the God within Al, I also see the God within you ..
.. can you see the God within me, Catcher or Scar ??..
When you say you see the God within Al and me...how would you describe the God you see?

I see goodness and many characteristics that could be viewed as Godly in both you and Catcher...not sure who Scar is. In you, I see a great deal of things though. You're complex. I'd send you roses, that's for sure!

Since: Sep 10

San Francisco, CA

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#563448
Nov 16, 2012
 

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United in faith wrote:
<quoted text>
you got that right!
look whats happened in just the past few days.
big companies are going belly up, walk outs are planned in walmarts on black friday, no christmas lights in Europe, Polygamy is now the new frontier to be legalized, stock market down,
just to name a few.....
and earthquakes happen now EVERY day on this planet.
COME QUICKLY LORD!
No, girl, it's better to delay, delay.

Since: Sep 11

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#563449
Nov 16, 2012
 
Happy Lesbo wrote:
<quoted text>
.. neat post, Timn! Can still remember where I was, what I was doing when 9-11 happened. Although I'm not a great believer in the power of prayer, my head bowed, my heart skipped a beat and I silently thought, "Oh, my God." Yes, there was fear ..
.. was my 'moment' a silent prayer begging for grace, or was it empathy for those murdered, the idea of such a heinous act being beyond my comprehension? Yes, for a few weeks America was united, then, as usual, we became fractured over solutions ..
.. why ??..
Me too. Interesting tidbit though - I believe they did a study that showed that most people do not have a very accurate memory of 9/11, despite the fact that most people have a very "vivid" recollection.

Since: Sep 11

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#563450
Nov 16, 2012
 
Coffee Freak wrote:
<quoted text>
Just stating how I feel about the situation. Separation of church and state came after the U.S. was founded. It clearly states in the Declaration of Independence "The laws of nature and the laws of nature’s God". As far as codifying goes in the Constitution, I believe you are referring to the First Amendment, which, in it, says, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof...". The point of such an amendment is twofold. First, it ensures that religious beliefs - private or organized - are removed from attempted government control. This is the reason why the government cannot tell either you or your church what to believe or to teach. Second, it ensures that the government does not get involved with enforcing, mandating, or promoting particular religious doctrines. This is what happens when the government "establishes" a church - and because doing so created so many problems in Europe, the authors of the Constitution wanted to try and prevent the same from happening here. So this country was founded UNDER God yet our forefathers needed to clarify a few things first before leaving such a statement open for scrutiny and attack. The founding fathers wanted this nation to be under God but have no particular denomination be the ruling or the only excepted religion, that all religions were acceptable. As far as Christmas goes, I just feel that the U.S. should stop worrying about offending people. The only thing Christmas has to do with Christianity is that it "represents"/symboli zes the birth of Jesus. Christmas was derived from Paganism in actuality. There was also some speculation that Jesus was born in the summer time (I think I read June/July) and not actually December. There is a book out there called "The Jesus Papers" which states that Jesus wasn't even crucified, that he actually died of old age (not saying I believe this - never finished reading the book). People have been surrounded with Christmas for many years. Why now make a stink? I think it's because people need something to bitch about and they'll go to any length to complain. People LOVE to whine and moan. Yes, 9/11 did bring people together that particular day and days to follow, however, when hurricane Sandy hit, there was a ton of looting, shootings and stabbings over the gas shortage. I know someone's nephew who was stabbed over gas. I say, "Way to come together people". Where was the patronage there? What that tells me is that when a "supposed other country attacks" (larger scale - I still believe the U.S. government was behind it), we come together but when mother nature attacks (smaller scale), we stand alone. The double standard is sickening. ANYWAY, not looking to go tit for tat. We can just agree to disagree.
Sure, we can agree to disagree, but this is a matter of fact, not a matter of opinion.

As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion,—as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Mussulmen [Muslims],—and as the said States never entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mahometan [Muslim] nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.

Yes, some of the founders were christians, but many were not, but either way all of them had the good sense to know that government and religion don't mix. Interpret the establishment clause any way you like - but it clearly states that the government shouldn't meddle with, promote, or otherwise associate itself with religion.

OCB

“What a GLORIOUS day!!!”

Since: Apr 12

Orlando but NYC born & raised

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#563451
Nov 16, 2012
 

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Happy Lesbo wrote:
<quoted text>
.. children understand one thing: love. Gender doesn't matter ..
Just as color, race, religion, nationality, being overweight and so much more doesn't matter to children.

Children are TAUGHT for those things to matter and therefore, many of those children grow up having all sorts of prejudices which were taught to them.

You've got to be taught
To hate and fear,
You've got to be taught
From year to year,
It's got to be drummed
In your dear little ear
You've got to be carefully taught.

You've got to be taught to be afraid
Of people whose eyes are oddly made,
And people whose skin is a diff'rent shade,
You've got to be carefully taught.

You've got to be taught before it's too late,
Before you are six or seven or eight,
To hate all the people your relatives hate,
You've got to be carefully taught!

http://www.stlyrics.com/lyrics/southpacific/y...

From "South Pacific"- one of my all time favorite musicals!

Since: Sep 11

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#563452
Nov 16, 2012
 
Forgot to mention - middle paragraph in my post is a quote, obviously.

You'd have a better case for a religious beginning to our nation if there was some aspect of our laws/declarations/etc that was decidedly "religious," for which you couldn't find an equally plausible secular precedent. If there existed in the US some law that could have *only* came from religion, and not from any secular source, you might have a case.

And I'm not saying that the founders weren't influenced by their respective religious beliefs at all, obviously some were, but the point is they made an active attempt to separate their personal beliefs from their leadership -and they thought this was an important enough ideal to codify it into law for future generations to follow.

“The eye has it...”

Since: May 09

Russell's Teapot

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#563453
Nov 16, 2012
 
Double Fine wrote:
<quoted text>
On a tangent, ever squirt water/milk from your eye?
lolerbat....

No, I haven't. Strangely enough, last night my son was telling me about a guy at his high school that does.

Seems he's a minor legend of sorts.

“I speak my mind”

Since: Sep 10

It hurts to bite my tongue

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#563454
Nov 16, 2012
 
River Tam wrote:
<quoted text>
I was 8. I didn't really understand what happened.
So you're what?? 19

I am sooo jealous! What I wouldn't give to be 19 again and know what I know now!

I remember that day vividly...and the sick feeling I had in my stomach as I stood glued to the television watching as the 2nd plane hit the second tower. It would have been nice to have been 8 and not understood what was occurring. The misfortune, today, is that a lot of people, who now vote, didn't understand what happened that day either.

OCB

“What a GLORIOUS day!!!”

Since: Apr 12

Orlando but NYC born & raised

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#563455
Nov 16, 2012
 

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Truth signed in wrote:
<quoted text>
So you're what?? 19
I am sooo jealous! What I wouldn't give to be 19 again and know what I know now!
I remember that day vividly...and the sick feeling I had in my stomach as I stood glued to the television watching as the 2nd plane hit the second tower. It would have been nice to have been 8 and not understood what was occurring. The misfortune, today, is that a lot of people, who now vote, didn't understand what happened that day either.
I'm sure most of us would love to be younger than we are if we could be younger and have the knowledge we now have, but that's the catch and one of the good things about growing older- gaining knowledge....but would I want to be 19 again knowing only what I knew at 19?

No thanks!

:-)

“MEET ROSEMARY-She Seeks Home”

Since: Oct 10

With Established Harem

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#563456
Nov 16, 2012
 
Truth signed in wrote:
<quoted text>
When you say you see the God within Al and me...how would you describe the God you see?
.. know it when I see it but when asked to describe it, the knowing leaves me. Is it love? Creativity? Understanding? Empathy? Or, is it an energy that radiates from a person's words or actions ??..
Truth signed in wrote:
<quoted text>I see goodness and many characteristics that could be viewed as Godly in both you and Catcher...not sure who Scar is. In you, I see a great deal of things though. You're complex. I'd send you roses, that's for sure!
.. make the roses yellow as a sign of our binding friendship. The passion will come later ..

“I speak my mind”

Since: Sep 10

It hurts to bite my tongue

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#563457
Nov 16, 2012
 
OCB wrote:
<quoted text>I'm sure most of us would love to be younger than we are if we could be younger and have the knowledge we now have, but that's the catch and one of the good things about growing older- gaining knowledge....but would I want to be 19 again knowing only what I knew at 19?
No thanks!
:-)
I don't know...as much as I enjoy having all the knowledge I've gained...I could do without some of it!:)

I'd probably take 19 and naive again...<reminisces>...y eah...scratch that "probably"

Since: Sep 10

San Francisco, CA

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#563458
Nov 16, 2012
 
OCB wrote:
<quoted text>I'm sure most of us would love to be younger than we are if we could be younger and have the knowledge we now have, but that's the catch and one of the good things about growing older- gaining knowledge....but would I want to be 19 again knowing only what I knew at 19?
No thanks!
:-)
That's the problem: Youth is wasted on young people.

Since: Sep 10

San Francisco, CA

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#563459
Nov 16, 2012
 
Happy Lesbo wrote:
<quoted text>
.. know it when I see it but when asked to describe it, the knowing leaves me. Is it love? Creativity? Understanding? Empathy? Or, is it an energy that radiates from a person's words or actions ??..
<quoted text>
.. make the roses yellow as a sign of our binding friendship. The passion will come later ..
In my view, it's all about empathy, which gives us understanding and compassion.

No gods are required for this.

“I speak my mind”

Since: Sep 10

It hurts to bite my tongue

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#563460
Nov 16, 2012
 
Happy Lesbo wrote:
<quoted text>
.. know it when I see it but when asked to describe it, the knowing leaves me. Is it love? Creativity? Understanding? Empathy? Or, is it an energy that radiates from a person's words or actions ??..
<quoted text>
.. make the roses yellow as a sign of our binding friendship. The passion will come later ..
Hmmm...I hope it's a combination of all!

Yellow it is! Watch for the delivery guy!

“H-o-o-o-o-o-o-ld on thar!”

Since: Sep 08

The Borderland of Sol

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#563461
Nov 16, 2012
 
timn17 wrote:
<quoted text>How in the world have you not heard of pat robertson? He's a famous nutbag. He was the one who blamed the haiti disaster on voodoo and said that they deserved it.
Did he not also blame the Katrina catastrophe in New Orleans on the libertine attitudes of that city?

OCB

“What a GLORIOUS day!!!”

Since: Apr 12

Orlando but NYC born & raised

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#563462
Nov 16, 2012
 
Catcher1 wrote:
<quoted text>
That's the problem: Youth is wasted on young people.
First said by George Bernard Shaw......

Great story about Shaw:

Perhaps you've heard of the famous dancer Isadora Duncan.

She was quite a risque dancer for her time and was quite the beauty as well who became enamored with Shaw.

She wrote him a letter proposing they have a child together because she said that with her looks and Shaw's brain, they would have quite the perfect child together.

Shaw replied: But Madam, what if he has MY looks and YOUR brains?

OCB

“What a GLORIOUS day!!!”

Since: Apr 12

Orlando but NYC born & raised

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#563463
Nov 16, 2012
 
Truth signed in wrote:
<quoted text>
I don't know...as much as I enjoy having all the knowledge I've gained...I could do without some of it!:)
I'd probably take 19 and naive again...<reminisces>...y eah...scratch that "probably"
Ummm...... in as much as forewarned is forearmed, I'd only want to be 19 again if I knew what I know now and not even 19- 21 would be better- legal drinking age and all......

;-)

But hey- I am SO young in mind, heart and spirit that I've kind of trained my body to keep pace with my mind, heart and spirit- LOL!

“I speak my mind”

Since: Sep 10

It hurts to bite my tongue

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#563464
Nov 16, 2012
 
Catcher1 wrote:
<quoted text>
In my view, it's all about empathy, which gives us understanding and compassion.
No gods are required for this.
True...no God is required for empathy. But I believe empathy will only go so far if we don't have love, which is actually what I think it's all about. Not a friendly or lustful love, but one that is selfless, sacrificial, and unconditional. Do you believe anyone can have that kind of love for others?

“I speak my mind”

Since: Sep 10

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#563465
Nov 16, 2012
 
OCB wrote:
<quoted text>Ummm...... in as much as forewarned is forearmed, I'd only want to be 19 again if I knew what I know now and not even 19- 21 would be better- legal drinking age and all......
;-)
But hey- I am SO young in mind, heart and spirit that I've kind of trained my body to keep pace with my mind, heart and spirit- LOL!
Well do tell your secret! My mind, heart, and spirit are like 21....but training my body to keep pace is quite the challenge. Looking the part...I'm holding my own....feeling the part...different story!

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