Prove there's a god.

“Ditat Deus”

Since: Jul 12

Location hidden

#559752 Nov 6, 2012
KittenKoder wrote:
<quoted text>
No, I'm merely destroying your argument by demonstrating the fallacious assumptions you made. The Kalam cosmological argument is an old one, and it's been addressed by people far better at it than even I, but even with my simplistic notion your argument dies, and quick. If your god can just "come into being," then anything can "just come into being." If your god can "exist for all eternity," then so can anything "exist for all eternity."
You just have to interpret what other people state to suit your own agenda, I know it's a habit, but try to keep at least one eye in reality.
If God can "exist for all eternity," then so can anything?!

Lol, that would denote His "Godness"....

You're so wrong.

You're using the good ole "Every event must have a cause, and each cause must in turn have its own cause" argument to try & prove that God even once had a creator.

At least you're admitting to His existence. That's a good start.

“Ditat Deus”

Since: Jul 12

Location hidden

#559753 Nov 6, 2012
KittenKoder wrote:
<quoted text>
No, I'm merely destroying your argument by demonstrating the fallacious assumptions you made. The Kalam cosmological argument is an old one, and it's been addressed by people far better at it than even I, but even with my simplistic notion your argument dies, and quick. If your god can just "come into being," then anything can "just come into being." If your god can "exist for all eternity," then so can anything "exist for all eternity."
You just have to interpret what other people state to suit your own agenda, I know it's a habit, but try to keep at least one eye in reality.
Oh wait, I almost missed this little excerpt from you, the all-knowing, all-wise.....

"it's been addressed by people far better at it than even I,"

Even you?!?

No..........

“Ditat Deus”

Since: Jul 12

Location hidden

#559754 Nov 6, 2012
Hidingfromyou wrote:
<quoted text>
You are simply substituting "supernatural" above for "I don't know and am incapable of knowing."
It's a god of the gaps argument - a fallacy based on ignorance.
#2 may be incorrect. This is not knowable yet, making #3 a useless point.
#5 may be correct, but that does not demonstrate the existence of any deity.
#6 is simply your incorrect lay opinion. Quantum mechanics describes lots of events that come to exist without causes.
#7 is simply your ignorance (see above)
#8 is true
#9 is only true after life is established. All our sciences predict that replicators evolved into life; replicators were slightly more complex organic molecules than basic organic molecules, but less complex than the chemistry that goes on in bacteria. No scientific hypothesis predicts otherwise.
#10 and #11 are simply uninformed opinions + logical fallacy (see above).
Even if you were correct on all points, which you are not, you would still not have demonstrated your deity.
You're further mistaken about "scientific validity." Appeals to the supernatural are non-explanatory. They cannot produce testable, disprovable hypotheses; they are not scientific in the slightest sense. Thus you are grossly mistaken about claiming science is "proving God" on multiple counts. These are:
1. an appeal to ignorance
2. personal incredulity (unable to understand QM and abiogenesis research hypotheses, you sub your own "answer" since it makes sense to you)
3. inability to distinguish between appeals to supernatural causes making your "God hypothesis" indistinguishable from an "Osiris hypothesis"
I personally find the first two points troubling and the third point amusing.
I just gotsta LMAO at you atheists...

As soon as I get some rational thinking on your heads, you very quickly turn your back on the whole 13.7 billion years guess.

"#2 may be incorrect. This is not knowable yet, making #3 a useless point."

“Ditat Deus”

Since: Jul 12

Location hidden

#559755 Nov 6, 2012
KittenKoder wrote:
<quoted text>
That is a christian fallacy, if I was really a Mr, you'd not attempt to insult me. The irony is that all you do is remind me of how sexist you christians are.
A Christian fallacy?! That something can't come from nothing?

Lol! Teach me, oh wise one.

Are you not a Mr? I apologize, I thought you were.

Your assumptions remind me of how small minded you atheists are. Thanks.

“A sentient umbrella speaks”

Since: Mar 11

Some stable somewhere

#559756 Nov 6, 2012
RiversideRedneck wrote:
<quoted text>
Nope. A non-Christian (at least one that is untrained) can not see logical flaws. They don't know what they're talking about.
Same goes for a non-scientist, like me. I can't really tell you how biology works, I can only give my ignorant views of it.
In turn, you can only give your ignorant views of Christianity.
I've been thinking about this one, since it's one of your more salient points. The "systems of knowing" you are comparing above cannot be compared in the manner you invoke because they produce knowledge in very different ways. Science does it through knowledge testing and disproving. Religion produces new "knowledge" via fiat.

There's a reason why we turn to science for answers to our questions about the world around us - why we get all our new technology from science and not religion. Religion may have within-system logic, but it most certainly does not have without-system logic. Since science made the scene, religious explanations of natural phenomena have all failed, every last one - you religious people are left with "god of the gaps" positions, basing all your ideas (since they are not theories) on our lack of knowledge.

But don't worry, we'll fill in those gaps, too.

So, yes, from without Christianity it's easy to point out your logical flaws, just like it is from without any religion. I'm not talking about the details Christians argue about - whether this event means X or whatever, but fundamental flaws like "homosexuality is a sin." No, there's nothing innately wrong with homosexuality. It's not unnatural, it's just your religion's biased proclamation that causes misery and suffering - one example of a logical failure in your religion. No, pi is not 3, no bats aren't birds, no snakes don't talk, prayers don't do much outside of emotional effect, etc.

“A sentient umbrella speaks”

Since: Mar 11

Some stable somewhere

#559757 Nov 6, 2012
RiversideRedneck wrote:
<quoted text>
I just gotsta LMAO at you atheists...
As soon as I get some rational thinking on your heads, you very quickly turn your back on the whole 13.7 billion years guess.
"#2 may be incorrect. This is not knowable yet, making #3 a useless point."
So you can't speak to my position but remain in awe of my ability to admit ignorance - something you cannot do.

I don't know everything, RR. I don't know how the universe came about - and we cannot say. We have lots of scientific speculation (based on our tested and testable models), but that's it.

You don't. You pretend that you do know, despite not having any evidence whatsoever. You claim to know what we cannot know - while never producing an ounce of evidence.

I don't know how life began, how the universe began, but I'm not about to stick a placeholder for my ignorance in there to pretend I know. I'm honest that way :)

“What are you looking at?”

Since: Jan 08

Albuquerque, NM

#559758 Nov 6, 2012
RiversideRedneck wrote:
<quoted text>
I rephrased that a few hours ago. I said "the poor stay poor because they choose to."
There have been plenty of people in America that were born into poverty & did something to change that. There are others that have decided that poverty is what they want.
Choice.

Ah-yes...that free will we all have.

Explains everything, except "God".

“I Am No One Else”

Since: Apr 12

Seattle

#559759 Nov 6, 2012
RiversideRedneck wrote:
<quoted text>
If God can "exist for all eternity," then so can anything?!
Lol, that would denote His "Godness"....
You're so wrong.
You're using the good ole "Every event must have a cause, and each cause must in turn have its own cause" argument to try & prove that God even once had a creator.
At least you're admitting to His existence. That's a good start.
This one is the most entertaining ... oh wait, I misspelled redundant ... argument. You posit a dodge to the simple logic required to know that if everything requires a cause then that means everything, you cannot make exceptions without allowing for more exceptions. Learn to think for a change, it may save your life.

“Ditat Deus”

Since: Jul 12

Location hidden

#559760 Nov 6, 2012
Hidingfromyou wrote:
<quoted text>
I've been thinking about this one, since it's one of your more salient points. The "systems of knowing" you are comparing above cannot be compared in the manner you invoke because they produce knowledge in very different ways. Science does it through knowledge testing and disproving. Religion produces new "knowledge" via fiat.
There's a reason why we turn to science for answers to our questions about the world around us - why we get all our new technology from science and not religion. Religion may have within-system logic, but it most certainly does not have without-system logic. Since science made the scene, religious explanations of natural phenomena have all failed, every last one - you religious people are left with "god of the gaps" positions, basing all your ideas (since they are not theories) on our lack of knowledge.
But don't worry, we'll fill in those gaps, too.
So, yes, from without Christianity it's easy to point out your logical flaws, just like it is from without any religion. I'm not talking about the details Christians argue about - whether this event means X or whatever, but fundamental flaws like "homosexuality is a sin." No, there's nothing innately wrong with homosexuality. It's not unnatural, it's just your religion's biased proclamation that causes misery and suffering - one example of a logical failure in your religion. No, pi is not 3, no bats aren't birds, no snakes don't talk, prayers don't do much outside of emotional effect, etc.
The kudos are appreciated :)

But...

I love how people around the world are discovering more & more seemingly every day in regards to scientific research. Of all kinds. I see it as our natural instinct to explore - just as our forefathers did sailing into the great unknown. Just as we are today "sailing" to other planets.

I don't see science & religion as enemies or that they can cancel each other out. I've always seen them as parallel lines on the same path, with the same intent, to learn as much as possible in our short time here.

But I see religion, or I should say Christianity, as a conduit for seeking knowledge.

IMO, "godidit". He did. I see no other possible way of our existence. I think that science will undoubtedly discover this within a few hundred years.

Pi is not 3, yes. The Bible speaks nothing if it.

Bats are not birds, no. Same.

Homosexuality is not normal, it's a learned trait or preference.

Snakes don't talk, no. But Satan does.

Prayers do wonders. You'd know if you honestly tried.

“I Am No One Else”

Since: Apr 12

Seattle

#559761 Nov 6, 2012
RiversideRedneck wrote:
<quoted text>
A Christian fallacy?! That something can't come from nothing?
Lol! Teach me, oh wise one.
Are you not a Mr? I apologize, I thought you were.
Your assumptions remind me of how small minded you atheists are. Thanks.
Quantum physics, you have a lot of studying to do, you should get started and restart this "debate" in about ten years, then you may have a modicum of understanding of the scientific concepts in the theories.

“Ditat Deus”

Since: Jul 12

Location hidden

#559762 Nov 6, 2012
Hidingfromyou wrote:
<quoted text>
So you can't speak to my position but remain in awe of my ability to admit ignorance - something you cannot do.
I don't know everything, RR. I don't know how the universe came about - and we cannot say. We have lots of scientific speculation (based on our tested and testable models), but that's it.
You don't. You pretend that you do know, despite not having any evidence whatsoever. You claim to know what we cannot know - while never producing an ounce of evidence.
I don't know how life began, how the universe began, but I'm not about to stick a placeholder for my ignorance in there to pretend I know. I'm honest that way :)
I can't admit ignorance? In the post this came from, I admitted my ignorance of biology & all I can offer is my ignorant views of it....

I do NOT pretend to know how the universe came about. I believe that Gid created the universe but I have absolutely no idea how.

I'm honest, too. I just refuse to put up a mental block that says "there is no god, so it MUST'VE happened naturally".

“Ditat Deus”

Since: Jul 12

Location hidden

#559763 Nov 6, 2012
KittenKoder wrote:
<quoted text>
This one is the most entertaining ... oh wait, I misspelled redundant ... argument. You posit a dodge to the simple logic required to know that if everything requires a cause then that means everything, you cannot make exceptions without allowing for more exceptions. Learn to think for a change, it may save your life.
You're useless argument isn't working. God has always been & will always be.

If our universe had a beginning, logic would dictate that it'll have and end, too.

God had no beginning & has no end. The very simple point that you refuse to hear is that God is not the universe & is not mortal.

“Ditat Deus”

Since: Jul 12

Location hidden

#559764 Nov 6, 2012
KittenKoder wrote:
<quoted text>
Quantum physics, you have a lot of studying to do, you should get started and restart this "debate" in about ten years, then you may have a modicum of understanding of the scientific concepts in the theories.
"quantum physics"....

That's your answer that proves something can come from nothing???

So..... You have no idea, right?

“You Can't Throw MeTo TheWolves”

Since: May 10

THEY COME WHEN I CALL

#559770 Nov 6, 2012
Kaitlin the Wolf Witch wrote:
Kaitlin the Wolf Witch wrote:
<quoted text>
So, yellodog, you've changed your name again? Per che?
<quoted text>
Thanks for admitting you want me killed, good christian. You have just proven what I and every non-christian on this thread has been saying about you.
In return for you "somebody needs to put you down" remark, let me return it with "I hope you die really, really soon."
Are you now going to tell me I have no right to tell you to fuck off, yellowbitch? Are you going to tell me that the profanities you earn from me are "more evil" than your wish for my death?
Mirror Mirror two Faced wrote:
<quoted text> No she has not.
She said I needed to be put down. You saw it yourself. What do *you* think it means?

I understand that you hate the truth; *all* of you liars for jesus hate the truth, and those who speak it.

To quote your sister in christ, "You need to be put down." You don't believe I'm allowed to say that, do you? Only you hate-filled christians are.

Eat shit and fuck off.

“You Can't Throw MeTo TheWolves”

Since: May 10

THEY COME WHEN I CALL

#559771 Nov 6, 2012
Al Garcia wrote:
<quoted text>
Whiskey Tango Foxtrot?
That's what *I* thought.

Since: Jan 11

Location hidden

#559773 Nov 6, 2012
Baritt Obamney is ahead by 60 states.

“You Can't Throw MeTo TheWolves”

Since: May 10

THEY COME WHEN I CALL

#559775 Nov 6, 2012
Mirror Mirror two Faced wrote:
<quoted text>If you do not have the Book, God's message to us, then you have nothing.
You have nothing but a book of lies. You're not even capable of thinking for yourself, you need to be told what to think by your cult masters.

“A sentient umbrella speaks”

Since: Mar 11

Some stable somewhere

#559776 Nov 6, 2012
RiversideRedneck wrote:
<quoted text>
The kudos are appreciated :)
But...
I love how people around the world are discovering more & more seemingly every day in regards to scientific research. Of all kinds. I see it as our natural instinct to explore - just as our forefathers did sailing into the great unknown. Just as we are today "sailing" to other planets.
I don't see science & religion as enemies or that they can cancel each other out. I've always seen them as parallel lines on the same path, with the same intent, to learn as much as possible in our short time here.
But I see religion, or I should say Christianity, as a conduit for seeking knowledge.
IMO, "godidit". He did. I see no other possible way of our existence. I think that science will undoubtedly discover this within a few hundred years.
Pi is not 3, yes. The Bible speaks nothing if it.
Bats are not birds, no. Same.
Homosexuality is not normal, it's a learned trait or preference.
Snakes don't talk, no. But Satan does.
Prayers do wonders. You'd know if you honestly tried.
The Bible claims pi is 3 and that bats are birds.

You claim homosexuality is a "learned trait or preference." You're saying that people wake up one day and think "gee, it'd be wonderful to be in a discriminated-against minority group and beat up more at school"?

Yeah, you can honestly call the "God did it" your opinion - there's nothing wrong with holding it. We both have drawn an inference about the nature of the universe. I don't see your opinion as being drawn from an evidence based approach though, or capable of producing testable, disprovable hypotheses. I see it as coming from a learned religious belief system.

Prayers may make individuals feel wonderful, they can cause emotional changes in people - hence, measurable biological changes - but, prayers for others have virtually no effect if the person you're praying for doesn't know. Prayers are social in nature. They are understood by people who have been encultured to the same religion, but meaningless outside of their social cues.

For example, you can pray for my friend's arm to grow back all you like, nothing will happen. You can pray for me all you like, my life won't change for it. Just like I can think really, really hard about how much I'd like you to suddenly win a lottery - won't happen. But, good luck!

“You Can't Throw MeTo TheWolves”

Since: May 10

THEY COME WHEN I CALL

#559777 Nov 6, 2012
Mirror Mirror two Faced wrote:
<quoted text>..don't worry, we Christians are messenger of God and from God....
Translation: "Our shit don't stink."

You're insane.

“You Can't Throw MeTo TheWolves”

Since: May 10

THEY COME WHEN I CALL

#559778 Nov 6, 2012
United in faith wrote:
<quoted text>
Animals do NOT possess a moral conscience.
eating your own babies is not a moral thing to do.
animals kill with out a thought or conscience.
River Tam wrote:
<quoted text>
You're an animal.
Yet she has the IQ of a houseplant.

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