Which is the Oldest Indian Language? ...
Tamil mother Vs Sanskrit

Dubai, UAE

#2105 Feb 15, 2014
Naveen kumar wrote:
Vinod,Telugu has inscriptions and scripts belonging to every kingdom,u can see similiar inscriptions/script from the kingdoms of shatavahanas,bhattiprolu,gupta ,ashoka,ishvakus,salankayana,a nandaghotrika,vishnukundina,va kataka,etc..... In different periods,but the script was developed slowly,the ancient telugu poets,sages refer sanskrit script and telugu script to write their literature even nannaya bhattaraka,thikkana somayaji,bammera pothanna,valmiki also used sanskrit script to write their literatures like stotras,mantras,shlokas,poems, etc... Telugu language was older than tamil and kannada,kannada and tamil brahmi script was originated from bhattiprolu script,but tamil&kannada scripts was developed fastly,ashoka introduced brahmi script to tamil and kannada from bhattiprolu,early inscriptions in tamil cave inscriptions at 250 b.c, early kannada inscriptions tagarthi 350 a.d,early telugu inscriptions is bhattiprolu 400 b.c.
Sanskrit has no native script of its own ..........
Mr .Naveen Tell ME - Which script written this Great People. U said nannaya bhattaraka,thikkana somayaji,bammera pothanna,valmiki also used sanskrit script to write their literatures like stotras,mantras,shlokas,poems, etc... I think Tamil Scrit or ?
Sanskrit was spoken in an oral society, and the oral tradition was maintained through the development of early classical Sanskrit literature.Writing was not introduced to India until after Sanskrit had evolved into the Prakrits; when it was written, the choice of writing system was influenced by the regional scripts of the scribes. Therefore, Sanskrit has no native script of its own. As such, virtually all of the major writing systems of South Asia have been used for the production of Sanskrit manuscripts. Since the late 19th century, devanāgari has become the de facto standard writing system for Sanskrit publication, quite possibly because of the European practice of printing Sanskritic texts in this script. Devanāgari is written from left to right, lacks distinct letter cases, and is recognizable by a distinctive horizontal line running along the tops of the letters that links them together.
My name is 'incomplete third word is the name'(written) in Sanskrit
The earliest known inscriptions in Sanskrit date to the 1st century BCE.They are in the Brahmi script, which was originally used for Prakrit, not Sanskrit.It has been described as a "paradox" that the first evidence of written Sanskrit occurs centuries later than that of the Prakrit languages which are its linguistic descendants. When Sanskrit was written down, it was first used for texts of an administrative, literary or scientific nature. The sacred texts were preserved orally, and were set down in writing, "reluctantly" (according to one commentator), and at a comparatively late date.
Brahmi evolved into a multiplicity of scripts of the Brahmic family, many of which were used to write Sanskrit. Roughly contemporary with the Brahmi, the Kharosthi script was used in the northwest of the subcontinent. Later (around the 4th to 8th centuries CE) the Gupta script, derived from Brahmi, became prevalent. From ca. the 8th century, the Sharada script evolved out of the Gupta script.
Tamil mother Vs Sanskrit

Dubai, UAE

#2106 Feb 15, 2014
Naveen kumar wrote:
Tamil people says our kings built shiva temples,who built early cholas,pandyas or cheras? those temples builted by pallavas,nayaks and mid cholas(non tamils) there are more lord shiva temples in andhrapradesh and karnataka than tamilnadu.infact chera people and agasthiyar belong to malayalam land
FYI & A,

Thillai Natarajah Kovil (Temple)-architecture, sculpture and performance art for over two millennium.
, Chidambaram temple is a Hindu temple dedicated to Lord Shiva located in the town of Chidambaram, East-Central Tamil Nadu, South India. The temple is known as the foremost of all temples (Kovil) to Saivites and has influenced worship, architecture, sculpture and performance art for over two millennium. The Sangam classics list chief architect Viduvelvidugu Perumtaccan as directing an early renovation of the shrine.

Constructed to signify where Tamil Shaivites identify the centre loci of the universe to be, the shrine, dedicated to Lord Shiva, has witnessed several significant events in the history of Tamil Nadu. A powerful legacy of Dravidian art, its structures and sculptures have attracted pilgrims to Chidambaram for over two millennium. The birthplace of Nataraja when Shaivite worship was highly popular during the Sangam period, Chidambaram had gained a reputation for holiness across the continent by the third century CE and the admiration of the Tamilakkam royals of the early Cholas, Chera dynasty and the early Pandyan Kingdom. Built by the early Cholas to one of their family deities - Nataraja-Koothan - it served as the king and queen's state temple and seat of their monarchs' coronations. The Chola royals underlined their non-partisan approach to religious iconography and faith by also patronizing the Srirangam Ranganathaswamy temple dedicated to Vishnu - their other Kuladheivam or "abode of family deity". Chola King Kocengannan who reigned in the first half of the 2nd century CE was born after his parents King Subhadevan and Kamaladevi worshipped in the Thillai Golden Hall (Pon Ambalam). He expanded the shrine in his later life and added to unfinished decorations. Saints Patañjali Tirumular and Vyaghrapada famously worshipped Nataraja at the shrine.The travelling Pallava-Chola king Simhavarman (II or III) who reigned in the 5th-6th century CE was cured of leprosy by bathing in the Shivagangai tank and in gratitude made extensive repairs and additions to the temple. He changed his name to Hiranyavarman or "golden bodied."
Telugu warriors

Dubai, UAE

#2107 Feb 15, 2014
Naveen kumar wrote:
<quoted text> totally wrong information
Telugu is the oldest language in india (sanskrit borrowed many words from telugu to make its grammer complete , with out telugu there is no sanskrit )

telugu is the oldest language in india , sanskrit born around 200AD and tamil born around 3300BC and telugu born around 3400BC .......dont be in a false propagation that tamil and sanskrit are old languages
sanskrit borrowed many words from telugu to make its grammer complete , with out telugu there is no sanskrit .
Warriors

Dubai, UAE

#2108 Feb 15, 2014
Naveen kumar wrote:
Vinod,pallavas r origin of ap from palnadu in guntur dist,bodhi dharma is 2nd son of sinha vishnu not 3rd son,u tamils cant pronounce his name properly and claiming him as tamilian fools,bodhi dharma is the name origin from (telugu/sanskrit)not tamil and his name is nor bodhi dhaaruman,pallavas mother tongue is telugu,and their oficial language was sanskrit,and tamil in wiki bcoz they ruled tamil area,and why pallava language was sanskrit in wiki?and why sanskrit is not in wiki of pandyas and early cholas kingdoms and those r older kingdoms than pallavas,vinod did u see pali script,pali and prakrit are 0%similiar in script,prakrit is similiar to sanskrit bcoz prakrit was derived from sanskrit,both prakrit and sanskrit was originated from vedic sanskrit,and onemore thing sanskrit has out standing literature such as vedas before 1700 b.c.,prakrit also has verywell developed literatures at 400 b.c.and prakrit is in devanagiri script not bhattiprolu. Ashoka also introduced brahmi script to different parts of india and outside of india
These stupid andhra wala says that their language is pure and ancient. How thats possible

Telgu has many Urdu words, Persian words and Arabic words. Andhra people say only telangana people mixup urdu and persian arabic words. But andhras mixup many arabic, bengali, odia, persian and arabic, tamil words.

this way how telugu becomes ancient and pure?
Warriors

Dubai, UAE

#2109 Feb 15, 2014
Naveen kumar wrote:
Vinod,pallavas r origin of ap from palnadu in guntur dist,bodhi dharma is 2nd son of sinha vishnu not 3rd son,u tamils cant pronounce his name properly and claiming him as tamilian fools,bodhi dharma is the name origin from (telugu/sanskrit)not tamil and his name is nor bodhi dhaaruman,pallavas mother tongue is telugu,and their oficial language was sanskrit,and tamil in wiki bcoz they ruled tamil area,and why pallava language was sanskrit in wiki?and why sanskrit is not in wiki of pandyas and early cholas kingdoms and those r older kingdoms than pallavas,vinod did u see pali script,pali and prakrit are 0%similiar in script,prakrit is similiar to sanskrit bcoz prakrit was derived from sanskrit,both prakrit and sanskrit was originated from vedic sanskrit,and onemore thing sanskrit has out standing literature such as vedas before 1700 b.c.,prakrit also has verywell developed literatures at 400 b.c.and prakrit is in devanagiri script not bhattiprolu. Ashoka also introduced brahmi script to different parts of india and outside of india
OK Guys! I withdraw word stupid. Sorry for using such word.

No body is good at history. I know some hisotry of Shatavahanas and Andhra kings. But, I studied in some History books that, The telugu is not a pure form of language. Telugu script itself is derived from Old Kannada Script and which is a close relative of Kadamba Script.(You see Kadamba script in internet).

I my apartment in mumbai(Panvel), I have 7 friends and 6 are from AP and 1 is from Kerla.
out of 6 1 guy is from Nizamabad. These 5 Guys always insult the Nizamabad guy becoz of some Telngana conflict. They say, Telngana telugu is very bad full of Urdu persian words.

He told me that, andhras use lot of urdu, odia, bengali and other words. He showed me all with proof.

The vijaiwada guy speaks telugu with full of english words. Now, How come telugu becomes. Pure. How can they scold nizamabad fellow.
Telugu Warriors

Dubai, UAE

#2110 Feb 15, 2014
Naveen kumar wrote:
The first andhra kingdom is ashmaka before 800 b.c. First kingdom from tamilnadu pandya 500 b.c. First karnataka kingdom kadamba 345 a.d.
Telugu literature is generally divided into six periods:(In the earliest period there were only inscriptions from 575 AD onwards)

The first treatise on Telugu grammar, the Andhra Sabda Chintamani was written in Sanskrit by Nannayya, considered the first Telugu poet and translator, in the 11th century A.D. This grammar followed the patterns which existed in grammatical treatises like A&#7779;&#7789;&#2 57;dhy&#257;y&#299; and V&#257;lm&#299;kivy &#257;karanam but unlike P&#257;&#7751;ini, Nannayya divided his work into five chapters, covering samjn&#257;, sandhi, ajanta, halanta and kriya. Every Telugu grammatical rule is derived from P&#257;&#7751;inian concepts.

In the Telugu literature Tikkana was given agraasana (top position) by many famous critics. In the earliest period there were only inscriptions from 575 AD onwards. Nannaya's (1022–1063) translation of the Sanskrit Mahabharata into Telugu is the earliest piece of Telugu literature as yet discovered. After the demise of Nannaya, there was a kind of social and religious revolution in the Telugu country.

Tikkana (13th century) and Yerrapragada (14th century) continued the translation of the Mahabharata started by Nannaya. Telugu poetry also flourished in this period, especially in the time of Srinatha.

During this period, some Telugu poets translated Sanskrit poems and dramas, while others attempted original narrative poems. The popular Telugu literary form called the Prabandha evolved during this period. Srinatha (1365–1441) was the foremost poet, who popularized this style of composition (a story in verse having a tight metrical scheme). Srinatha's Sringara Naishadham is particularly well-known.

The Ramayana poets may also be referred in this context. The earliest Ramayana in Telugu is generally known as the Ranganatha Ramayana, authored by the chief Gona Buddha Reddy. The works of Pothana (1450–1510), Jakkana (second half of the 14th century) and Gaurana (first half of the 15th century) formed a canon of religious poetry during this period. Padakavitha Pithamaha, Annamayya, contributed many original Telugu Paatalu (Songs) to the language.

The 16th and 17th centuries CE is regarded as the "golden age" of Telugu literature. Krishnadevaraya's Amukthamalayadha, and Pedhdhana's Manucharithra are regarded as Mahaakaavyaas. Sri Krishnadeva Raya stated "Desa bhashalandu Telugu Lessa" meaning " Telugu is the best among the languages of the nation". Telugu literature flourished in the south in the traditional "samsthanas" (centres) of Southern literature, such as Madurai and Tanjore. This age is often referred to as the Southern Period. There were also an increasing number of poets in this period among the ruling class, women and working class who popularised indigenous (desi) meters.

With the conquest of the Deccan by the Mughals in 1687, Telugu literature entered a lull. Tyagaraja's compositions are some of the known works from this period. Then emerged a period of transition (1850–1910), followed by a long period of Renaissance. Europeans like C.P. Brown played an important role in the development of Telugu language and literature. In common with the rest of India, Telugu literature of this period was increasingly influenced by European literary forms like the novel, short story, prose and drama.
Mudaliar

Bangalore, India

#2111 Feb 15, 2014
Warriors wrote:
<quoted text>
OK Guys! I withdraw word stupid. Sorry for using such word.
No body is good at history. I know some hisotry of Shatavahanas and Andhra kings. But, I studied in some History books that, The telugu is not a pure form of language. Telugu script itself is derived from Old Kannada Script and which is a close relative of Kadamba Script.(You see Kadamba script in internet).
I my apartment in mumbai(Panvel), I have 7 friends and 6 are from AP and 1 is from Kerla.
out of 6 1 guy is from Nizamabad. These 5 Guys always insult the Nizamabad guy becoz of some Telngana conflict. They say, Telngana telugu is very bad full of Urdu persian words.
He told me that, andhras use lot of urdu, odia, bengali and other words. He showed me all with proof.
The vijaiwada guy speaks telugu with full of english words. Now, How come telugu becomes. Pure. How can they scold nizamabad fellow.
Let MORON Naveen read as many times as possible and come to sensenses in building constructive arguments.
Vishnu

Ashburn, VA

#2112 Feb 15, 2014
Naveen kumar wrote:
Before 2500 b.c there was no tamil tribes in south india,tamil people and south indians was also called as as andhras,the first south indian kingdom was ashmaka from andhra pradesh,when the ashmaka was established the tamils and kannadigas are tribals,tamil literature was copied from vedic sanskrit literature as tamil script was developed fastly than others,no tamil and kannada peoples are mentioned in original version of ramayana and mahabharatha,they are mentioned only in their native literatures modified from ramayana and mahabharatha, no doubt sanskrit was oldest language in india and world and sanskrit is the powerful language with great literatures and u cannot find any single swear word in sanskrit literature while every language of the world has hundreds of swear words. Telugu was early south indian language, Andhras r mentioned in original versions of vedic mahabharatha and ramayana,proofs from ramayana and vyasas mahabharatha http://www.jatland.com/home/Andhra
tamils are just tribals,tamil morons cant accept the facts
Naveen kumar

Ashburn, VA

#2113 Feb 15, 2014
Telugu brahmi inscriptions engraved by ashoka at 250 b.c copied from bhattiprolu and bhattiprolu script is older than ashoka inscriptions which is similiar to the ashoka telugu brahmi edicts . http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons...
Naveen kumar

Ashburn, VA

#2114 Feb 15, 2014
Upper of the image are the telugu letters,here u can see the older telugu brahmi inscriptions from different kingdoms in different periods bhattiprolu inscriptions 400 b.c.,other kingdoms inscriptions at 300 b.c.,100 b.c.,300 a.d.,400 a.d.,500 a.d., all are similiar to each other,and at number 8 u can see tamil pallava script derived from older telugu at 700 a.d. Telugu brahmi inscriptions engraved by ashoka at 250 b.c copied from bhattiprolu and bhattiprolu script is older than ashoka inscriptions which is similiar to the ashoka telugu brahmi edicts . Http://upload.wikipedia.org/wikipedia/en/c/cd ...
Vishnu

Ashburn, VA

#2115 Feb 15, 2014
Naveen kumar wrote:
These are telugu inscriptions from bhattiprolu inscriptions to 16th c.e krishnadeva raya inscriptions/scripts,at number 8 u can see pallava tamil script derived from telugu brahmi at 700 a.d. But telugu script was developed slowly, http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/c/cd...
even tamil script was also introduced by andhra empires
Vishnu

Ashburn, VA

#2116 Feb 15, 2014
Naveen kumar wrote:
http://images4.wikia.nocookie. net/__cb20111022223026/ancient indiaguptaempire/images/thumb/ 2/20/424px-Brahmi.png/339px-42 4px-Brahmi.png
telugu is the oldest language in south india
Vishnu

Ashburn, VA

#2117 Feb 15, 2014
Naveen kumar wrote:
These are telugu inscriptions from bhattiprolu inscriptions to 16th c.e krishnadevaraya inscriptions/script and u can see at number 8 are pallava tamil script derived from telugu brahmi at 700 a.d but telugu script developed slowly http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb2011102...
these inscriptions belong to 10 kingdoms in different periods before 400 b.c to 500 a.d.
jaob tirunelveli

Bangalore, India

#2118 Feb 16, 2014
suddenly lot of telugu fools emerged. or some one is writing with different names. i dont know. how ca there be many fools who do not give proof but shout at the same bhattripolo inscription which is written in prakrutham language. how can anyone claim other language inscription as their inscription. is this foolishness or what. you telugu guys please read aintiram and you will shut your mouth.
Hindu Bindu

New Delhi, India

#2119 Feb 16, 2014
Naveen kumar wrote:
Ram,ramya,rams,raman adamant morons, why ur tamils are selfish and not trying to accept facts,pallavas r from ap ruled tamil region,and bodhi dharma name is originated from telugu/sanskrit,his name is bodhi dharma ,not bohdi dharmar,or bodhi dharman,nor bodhi dhaaruman,neither boddhi dharumar nor parmar,fools cant pronoumce his name properly claiming him as tamilian,these tamils also living in the begging bowl of chennai,begged from andhra,iam stayed in tamilnadu for one year,they r very selfishpeople and also they dont have any culture,no trust from them stupid people,i never seen such a mad city chennai,tamils made it a ugly city after thrown to them.
HINDUISM is the oldest Language of India Ever. The Word 'Hindu' is all over the Vedas, Upanishads, Smritis, Puranas (can't you people read for yourself?). It has been proven by our beloved Congress National Party.
The word "India" is also mentioned in all of the Bharatiya/Jambudveepa/Hindusta ni/Sone ki chidiya Granths and scriptures.... All Major Granths Like Bhagavata Purana, Vishnu Puran, Rig Ved, Sam Ved etc. start with "Aum Hindu" and end with "India". In between some of these scriptures are vague mentions/indications regarding "Sanatan Dharam", "Aad -Dharam", "Bharam", "Jambudweep", "Sone Ki Chidiya" etc.

The Greatest Sage of India is different according to different people and communities. Some say the greatest sage is VALMIKI, others say VISHWAMITRA, some say VASHISHTHA, etc. without knowing that they were great robbers looters of their time. They later became sages. But the greatest sage of all time in India is LORD BRAHMA who raped his own daughter Bhagwati Saraswati and married her. In this process, the Veena was used as a Divine dildo and not a musical instrument as a common human mind might think.

The Greatest Scripture ever Survived is the "Hindu Charita" written by Goddess Saraswati herself which is as follows:

Mai Hindu Mai Maader Bindu |
Meri Hijadi Qaum Niraali ||
Kehtey Mujhko Sab Hain Hindu |
Dete Mujhko Sab Hain Gaali ||
Mai Naa Sudhri Kabhi Bhi Saali |
Mai To Hoon Ek Gandi Naali ||

I guess a few short lines are only there as above in Pure Hinduism language. Some Hindi slangs are also there...
Will have to rechek the above phrase from "Hindu Charita". If needed, will contact Bhagwaan Hindu Museum.

Jai Hindu Museum!!!
Naveen kumar

Ashburn, VA

#2120 Feb 16, 2014
Telugu warriors wrote:
<quoted text>
Telugu is the oldest language in india (sanskrit borrowed many words from telugu to make its grammer complete , with out telugu there is no sanskrit )
telugu is the oldest language in india , sanskrit born around 200AD and tamil born around 3300BC and telugu born around 3400BC .......dont be in a false propagation that tamil and sanskrit are old languages
sanskrit borrowed many words from telugu to make its grammer complete , with out telugu there is no sanskrit .
i know which fool wrote this,tamil beggar,living in begging bowl chennai
Naveen kumar

Ashburn, VA

#2121 Feb 16, 2014
Hindu Bindu wrote:
<quoted text>
HINDUISM is the oldest Language of India Ever. The Word 'Hindu' is all over the Vedas, Upanishads, Smritis, Puranas (can't you people read for yourself?). It has been proven by our beloved Congress National Party.
The word "India" is also mentioned in all of the Bharatiya/Jambudveepa/Hindusta ni/Sone ki chidiya Granths and scriptures.... All Major Granths Like Bhagavata Purana, Vishnu Puran, Rig Ved, Sam Ved etc. start with "Aum Hindu" and end with "India". In between some of these scriptures are vague mentions/indications regarding "Sanatan Dharam", "Aad -Dharam", "Bharam", "Jambudweep", "Sone Ki Chidiya" etc.
The Greatest Sage of India is different according to different people and communities. Some say the greatest sage is VALMIKI, others say VISHWAMITRA, some say VASHISHTHA, etc. without knowing that they were great robbers looters of their time. They later became sages. But the greatest sage of all time in India is LORD BRAHMA who raped his own daughter Bhagwati Saraswati and married her. In this process, the Veena was used as a Divine dildo and not a musical instrument as a common human mind might think.
The Greatest Scripture ever Survived is the "Hindu Charita" written by Goddess Saraswati herself which is as follows:
Mai Hindu Mai Maader Bindu |
Meri Hijadi Qaum Niraali ||
Kehtey Mujhko Sab Hain Hindu |
Dete Mujhko Sab Hain Gaali ||
Mai Naa Sudhri Kabhi Bhi Saali |
Mai To Hoon Ek Gandi Naali ||
I guess a few short lines are only there as above in Pure Hinduism language. Some Hindi slangs are also there...
Will have to rechek the above phrase from "Hindu Charita". If needed, will contact Bhagwaan Hindu Museum.
Jai Hindu Museum!!!
are u male or female,hindu r ex hindu,what r u trying to conclude bastard
Naveen kumar

Ashburn, VA

#2122 Feb 16, 2014
jaob tirunelveli wrote:
suddenly lot of telugu fools emerged. or some one is writing with different names. i dont know. how ca there be many fools who do not give proof but shout at the same bhattripolo inscription which is written in prakrutham language. how can anyone claim other language inscription as their inscription. is this foolishness or what. you telugu guys please read aintiram and you will shut your mouth.
mad man,cant u understand that prakrit is in devanagiri script,and prakrit is different to telugu bhattiprolu,prakrit has literature and grammar at 400 b.c. Which is similar to sanskrit
Kadamba Script

Dubai, UAE

#2123 Feb 16, 2014
Naveen kumar wrote:
Telugu brahmi inscriptions engraved by ashoka at 250 b.c copied from bhattiprolu and bhattiprolu script is older than ashoka inscriptions which is similiar to the ashoka telugu brahmi edicts . http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons...
No body is good at history. I know some hisotry of Shatavahanas and Andhra kings. But, I studied in some History books that, The telugu is not a pure form of language. Telugu script itself is derived from Old Kannada Script and which is a close relative of Kadamba Script.(You see Kadamba script in internet).

I my apartment in mumbai(Panvel), I have 7 friends and 6 are from AP and 1 is from Kerla.
out of 6 1 guy is from Nizamabad. These 5 Guys always insult the Nizamabad guy becoz of some Telngana conflict. They say, Telngana telugu is very bad full of Urdu persian words.

He told me that, andhras use lot of urdu, odia, bengali and other words. He showed me all with proof.

The vijaiwada guy speaks telugu with full of english words. Now, How come telugu becomes. Pure. How can they scold nizamabad fellow.
Kadamba Script

Dubai, UAE

#2124 Feb 16, 2014
Naveen kumar wrote:
Telugu brahmi inscriptions engraved by ashoka at 250 b.c copied from bhattiprolu and bhattiprolu script is older than ashoka inscriptions which is similiar to the ashoka telugu brahmi edicts . http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons...
this way how telugu becomes ancient and pure?

Telgu has many Urdu words, Persian words and Arabic words. Andhra people say only telangana people mixup urdu and persian arabic words. But andhras mixup many arabic, bengali, odia, persian and arabic, tamil words.

No body is good at history. I know some hisotry of Shatavahanas and Andhra kings. But, I studied in some History books that, The telugu is not a pure form of language. Telugu script itself is derived from Old Kannada Script and which is a close relative of Kadamba Script.(You see Kadamba script in internet).

I my apartment in mumbai(Panvel), I have 7 friends and 6 are from AP and 1 is from Kerla.
out of 6 1 guy is from Nizamabad. These 5 Guys always insult the Nizamabad guy becoz of some Telngana conflict. They say, Telngana telugu is very bad full of Urdu persian words.

He told me that, andhras use lot of urdu, odia, bengali and other words. He showed me all with proof.

The vijaiwada guy speaks telugu with full of english words. Now, How come telugu becomes. Pure. How can they scold nizamabad fellow.

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