Proof Jesus never existed

Since: Jul 11

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#12673 Apr 24, 2014
lightbeamrider wrote:
<quoted text> No. Mary was a virgin at birth. Even if you believe it to be myth based on naturalistic assumptions then at least get the alleged myth right. Mary was impregnated without her virginity being compromised.
<quoted text> It is not what the thread is about. But it is a historical fact concerning pagan deities.
The Hebrew word for 'virgin' also meant 'young maiden.' So we can't truly say that that is what the bible said in its original form.

Since: Jul 11

Location hidden

#12674 Apr 24, 2014
lightbeamrider wrote:
<quoted text> If you are trying to establish historicity then mythology can be gleaned. The fact being you have no historicity for the existence of Zeus and you do have Jesus as a historical person based on historical investigation. When they do an investigation they look at all evidence to establish certain facts. That includes the multiple sources we call the Bible.
The bible does not count as multiple sources lol. If you count it as several individual books, im sure you can find many individual books saying from the period that say that Zeus was real. None of it makes a difference without any hard evidence.

I can direct you to hundreds of individuals who say they were abducted by aliens and you can go talk to them today, but I'm sure you wouldn't believe what they had to say with no evidence to back it up.

“Free your mind”

Since: Sep 07

Location hidden

#12678 May 28, 2014
lightbeamrider wrote:
<quoted text> No. Mary was a virgin at birth. Even if you believe it to be myth based on naturalistic assumptions then at least get the alleged myth right. Mary was impregnated without her virginity being compromised.
<quoted text> It is not what the thread is about. But it is a historical fact concerning pagan deities.
Ummm....yeah, I'd agree Mary was a virgin at birth, as are all girls, and boys for that matter. Show me where I got the myth wrong please. I know it quite well, having had it drilled into me from birth and the next 26 years of my life.

Women have been claiming for thousands of years to have children born of gods. Yahweh is no different, esp due to the timing of Judah's blasphemous worship of that war god over the actual God of Israel, El; which is why the Tanahk specifies the messiah's name as Emmanuel, not Jesus, which is a Latin-based name, not a Semitic-based name at all like Emmanuel. The idea that children were borne of gods happened in most cultures in the world from east to west.

I'm not sure why you are harping on Zeus, even to the point of contradicting yourself by saying he didn't exist then claiming he was a pedophile. That doesn't make a bit of sense. But, using your logic in this case, Yahweh was a rapist and pedophile going by the myth as taught in most Christian sects.

If you'd take the time to learn about the early Hebrew peoples, you'd see they adhered to the general pantheon of gods of most Middle Eastern cultures. El was their chief god, whose wife Asherah was held in high esteem, as was Baal. Yahweh was a war god, a lesser god. Judah used to rally the troops against the "heathens" that believed in traditional Hebraic pantheon of gods. Judah attacked his own people for his own political gain and used Yahweh to consolidate power; no different from what Constantine would do later with Christianity when he needed a way to bring the masses of conquered "pagans" under his political control. The Hebrews, Jews, knew and still know other cultures had/have their own gods, and were/are okay with that; but they were to adhere to El as their chief God, which is why their punishment was being dispersed according to biblical texts, because they allowed Judah to force them into conversion and worship of Yahweh.

BTW, Yahweh is technically a pagan deity and so was El. I'm not sure you have a clear understanding of what the word "pagan" actually means. Pagans were rural dwellers, not city folks; they were put down in that time period for living off the land, just as native peoples to what is now N. and S. America were, and killed for it. I don't understand the need or want to denigrate them or their deities just because those people didn't/don't live in cities, and didn't worship one abstract god over all others. Pagans generally respected nature and each person as a human being with their own beliefs as to which god/s they worshiped, which is much different from the judgmental, vileness spewed at them by the largest religions of Christianity, Islam and Hinduism.

Now we have plenty of contemporaneous evidence for Confucius, who never claimed to be a god, for Zoroaster, also never claimed to be a god, and for Siddharta Guatema, who also never claimed to be Buddha, just as Jesus never blasphemed against Jewish law and claimed to be God. Although, in the case of Jesus, going by the texts, the Sanhedrin twisted his words to mean such so they could convict him of sedition and execute him after Pontius Pilate washed his hands of the issue. I'd like to think if this did happen, Pilate felt some remorse once he realized he sent an innocent man back to people who wanted to kill him.

BUT we have NO contemporaneous evidence for Jesus. That presents a problem and is the reason for the question as to whether he actually did exist or not, or maybe wasn't a pure blooded Jew, which probably would tick off the Sanhedrin for him to question them.

“Free your mind”

Since: Sep 07

Location hidden

#12679 May 28, 2014
lightbeamrider wrote:
<quoted text> If you are trying to establish historicity then mythology can be gleaned. The fact being you have no historicity for the existence of Zeus and you do have Jesus as a historical person based on historical investigation. When they do an investigation they look at all evidence to establish certain facts. That includes the multiple sources we call the Bible.
To what historical investigation do you refer? Of the Bible? If that's all, then there is no contemporaneous evidence whatsoever. Not in the Bible, nor any other sources. That is the problem with this myth, just as with any other myth where there is no contemporaneous evidence. Jesus was allegedly a rabbi, and a good one according to canonized biblical texts. But man decided that canon, and left a lot out of it; there was much more info on the man called Jesus that may very well have been contemporaneous, but the church commissioned crusades against Christians sects in order to burn their texts and get rid of the info. 18 years of his life unaccounted for in the canon. Have you never questioned that??

“"None shall pass"”

Since: Jul 11

There

#12680 May 28, 2014
Stories in a book are not proof of anything except that human language exists.

“Free your mind”

Since: Sep 07

Location hidden

#12681 May 28, 2014
Lightbeamer, here's some good scholarly research on the Hebrew texts and early Palestine history before and after the Hebrews and Philistines invaded, from St. Michael's College. An excerpt:

The name Israel comes from the name of a god, El. "Israel" means "El fights" in Hebrew. The people at Ugarit, Syria, also worshipped El along with his wife, the goddess Asherah, and a younger god Ba'al. Their very name indicates that the early Israelites worshipped El. Some of the tribes who became Israelites, however, appear to have had a different tradition. They worshipped Yahweh, and there is some evidence (Judges 5:4-5; 1 Kings 19) that Yahweh's original home was an unspecified mountain to the south of Judah, bordering on the Sinai peninsula. Whenever you see the words "the LORD" in all caps in the Hebrew Bible, they are translating the word Yahweh. Whenever you see "God," they are translating the word El or the more generic plural form Elohim. In the course of time, Yahweh and El came to be identified with each other, so that the Israelite people perceived them to be the same god. That's why we read in the Bible so often "the LORD God;" i.e., "Yahweh Elohim." By about the year 1000 BCE, it is clear that Yahweh was seen to be the chief god of the Israelites, and we know from archaeological evidence that some Israelites assumed Yahweh had a goddess-wife, Asherah. We can guess that Ba'al was also worshipped in Israel, because many of the people mentioned in the Bible from this time have names honoring him and other gods and goddesses. Thus, the majority of people in early Israel were probably polytheists, meaning they worshipped more than one god, even if they acknowledged that Yahweh was the chief god, the most powerful. The belief in monotheism, namely that Yahweh is the only God there is, is a belief that developed and took hold only gradually in Israel.

http://academics.smcvt.edu/relstudies_courses...
Poov

Dracut, MA

#12682 May 30, 2014
Some1 Else wrote:
El. "Israel" means "El fights" in Hebrew.

Whenever you see "God," they are translating the word El or the more generic plural form Elohim. In the course of time, Yahweh and El came to be identified with each other, so that the Israelite people perceived them to be the same god.

The belief in monotheism, namely that Yahweh is the only God there is, is a belief that developed and took hold only gradually in Israel.
http://academics.smcvt.edu/relstudies_courses...
Quite true.

Israel means Wrestles with God, because Jacob (pretty sure it was him, but I'll have to check on it later) wrestled with God. God touched him in his tendon when they were rolling around on the ground wrestling, and after that the Hebrew Kosher law was that, among many other things, you couldn't eat the tendon of a chicken.

The ancient Hebrews worshiped Elohim. El means God. Elohim means Gods (plural). The original Hebrews worshiped many Gods. It's when the Hebrew scribes came across the writings of Zoroaster that they changed from Elohim to El.
Petesake

Liverpool, UK

#12683 May 30, 2014
BenAdam wrote:
Stories in a book are not proof of anything except that human language exists.
Christ lived and lives though as a mortal was murdered by Jews for being the Messiah they didn't recognize.

An NFL Fan

“Brevity is the soule of wit”

Since: May 09

USA

#12685 May 30, 2014
Petesick wrote:
<quoted text>
murdered by Jews for being the Messiah they didn't recognize.
Tell them what a Nazi you truly are, and how you're being closely monitored, Lucifer.

Since: Jun 12

Location hidden

#12686 May 30, 2014
southern alien wrote:
<quoted text>
The bible does not count as multiple sources lol.
Actually the Bible is multiple source. You don't get to make up the rules based on your ignorance and prejudice.
If you count it as several individual books,
The experts do. You know more than them?
im sure you can find many individual books saying from the period that say that Zeus was real.
The ancients wrote about Zeus. That does not mean they believed Zeus was actually real. Produce any historian who specializes in antiquity who argues for the historicity of Zeus.
None of it makes a difference without any hard evidence.
There is hard historical evidence for the existence of historical Jesus. The Gospels is evidence. The New Testament is evidence.
I can direct you to hundreds of individuals who say they were abducted by aliens and you can go talk to them today, but I'm sure you wouldn't believe what they had to say with no evidence to back it up.
I think you are coming up with excuses to validate your Jesus mythicism. Just like holocaust deniers. Did you know agnostic scholar Bart Ehrman compares Jesus mythers to holocaust deniers?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/bart-d-ehrman/d...

In a society in which people still claim the Holocaust did not happen, and in which there are resounding claims that the American president is, in fact, a Muslim born on foreign soil, is it any surprise to learn that the greatest figure in the history of Western civilization, the man on whom the most powerful and influential social, political, economic, cultural and religious institution in the world -- the Christian church -- was built, the man worshipped, literally, by billions of people today -- is it any surprise to hear that Jesus never even existed?...

One may well choose to resonate with the concerns of our modern and post-modern cultural despisers of established religion (or not). But surely the best way to promote any such agenda is not to deny what virtually every sane historian on the planet -- Christian, Jewish, Muslim, pagan, agnostic, atheist, what have you -- has come to conclude based on a range of compelling historical evidence.

Whether we like it or not, Jesus certainly existed.

----------

Take a reality break. You got all these scholars concluding historical Jesus which basically relegates Jesus mythers, that would be you, in the same category as holocaust deniers. The flake category.

Since: Jun 12

Location hidden

#12687 May 30, 2014
Some1 Else wrote:
<quoted text>
Luke, Paul's doctor, was the closest historian at the time and even he had never met Jesus,
So? Does a historian need to have met Hitler to write about him?
only recorded the claims made by others after his alleged death.
Yeah that is the way history works.
Any contemporaneous historian would have been all over recording the life story of a man of such caliber as Jesus,
They were first century Jews. Luke mentions sources. They went by word of mouth back then. Writing was a profession. They started writing things down after eyewitnesses died off according to Ehrman.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicity_of_J...

Since: Jun 12

Location hidden

#12688 May 30, 2014
Some1 Else wrote:
<quoted text>
To what historical investigation do you refer?
Go back one page and read the links provided. Links are all over this thread.
Of the Bible? If that's all, then there is no contemporaneous evidence whatsoever.
Not needed for antiquity. It would be nice but not absolutely necessary. Just because you do not like that actual evidence does not mean it is not evidence.
Jesus was allegedly a rabbi, and a good one according to canonized biblical texts. But man decided that canon, and left a lot out of it; there was much more info on the man called Jesus that may very well have been contemporaneous, but the church commissioned crusades against Christians sects in order to burn their texts and get rid of the info. 18 years of his life unaccounted for in the canon. Have you never questioned that??
You believe Jesus was myth then the 18 years and all this other BS is irrelevant. Existence has to be established first. Man decided the canon. Would you prefer monkeys decide the canon? Man decides what you watch when you turn on the News.

“Free your mind”

Since: Sep 07

Location hidden

#12689 Jun 3, 2014
lightbeamrider wrote:
<quoted text> So? Does a historian need to have met Hitler to write about him? <quoted text> Yeah that is the way history works. <quoted text> They were first century Jews. Luke mentions sources. They went by word of mouth back then. Writing was a profession. They started writing things down after eyewitnesses died off according to Ehrman.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicity_of_J...
Historians generally rely on contemporaneous evidence. They didn't just go by word of mouth back then. There are writings dating to about 6000 BCE. Not the Hebrew peoples of course, as their Semitic language developed during and after the Babylonian captivity, which is why the flood story of Noah is pretty much the same as the Epic of Gilgamesh, and other stories correlate to Babylonian stories as well. That region did indeed flood at one time, so it makes sense that would be an event to write about.

The main reason for ancient oral histories of the Hebrew peoples before they were forced into Judaism and to worship Yahweh, was because of their being a nomadic people, not settled agriculturally, until they learned how, again during captivity in Babylonia. Still their writings date to sometime in the early to mid first millenium BCE.

“Free your mind”

Since: Sep 07

Location hidden

#12690 Jun 3, 2014
lightbeamrider wrote:
<quoted text> Go back one page and read the links provided. Links are all over this thread. <quoted text> Not needed for antiquity. It would be nice but not absolutely necessary. Just because you do not like that actual evidence does not mean it is not evidence.
<quoted text> You believe Jesus was myth then the 18 years and all this other BS is irrelevant. Existence has to be established first. Man decided the canon. Would you prefer monkeys decide the canon? Man decides what you watch when you turn on the News.
Still for scholars even, no contemporaneous evidence presents a problem. Has nothing to do with what I like or dislike.

You are being dishonest, and I'll admit I do dislike that. I NEVER said Jesus existence was a myth. You need to go back and read my posts on the last two pages. The 18 years are relevant whether you like it or not.

And you are just being obnoxious now. Monkeys? Seriously? What are you 12? I was making that point because some people actually believe God picked the books of the Bible. Knowing the history of how those books were picked and why, it is obvious that it was for political and religious gain of positions within the RCC and the RE.

“"None shall pass"”

Since: Jul 11

There

#12691 Jun 3, 2014
Petesake wrote:
<quoted text>
Christ lived and lives though as a mortal was murdered by Jews for being the Messiah they didn't recognize.
I 'm familliar with your fairytale.

God screwed his mother so he could give birth to himself. Then he killed himself for a day and a half so he could give imbeciles that believe this idiotic tale an excuse to hate and murder in his name.

I am not retarded enough to join your cult.

Since: Jun 12

Location hidden

#12692 Jun 5, 2014
Some1 Else wrote:
<quoted text>
Historians generally rely on contemporaneous evidence. They didn't just go by word of mouth back then. There are writings dating to about 6000 BCE. Not the Hebrew peoples of course, as their Semitic language developed during and after the Babylonian captivity, which is why the flood story of Noah is pretty much the same as the Epic of Gilgamesh, and other stories correlate to Babylonian stories as well. That region did indeed flood at one time, so it makes sense that would be an event to write about.
The main reason for ancient oral histories of the Hebrew peoples before they were forced into Judaism and to worship Yahweh, was because of their being a nomadic people, not settled agriculturally, until they learned how, again during captivity in Babylonia. Still their writings date to sometime in the early to mid first millenium BCE.
You did not answer my question. Does a historian need to meet Hitler to write about him?

“Free your mind”

Since: Sep 07

Location hidden

#12693 Jun 8, 2014
lightbeamrider wrote:
<quoted text> You did not answer my question. Does a historian need to meet Hitler to write about him?
Of course not; but I thought that was a rhetorical question. One does however need contemporaneous evidence, and as for Hitler, there are mounds of it, including his own words, speeches, contemporaries, etc. The same can't be said of the canonical Jesus, though it can likely be said of Jesus in regards to some very early written Gnostic gospels like Thomas, who was called Didymous, or Jesus' twin, which is most likely meant as a spiritual reference though of course we can't say whether it was meant as only spiritual or his actual twin as there is no evidence that definitively points to either being the reason for Thomas being called that.
Shawn

Mannington, WV

#12694 Jun 30, 2014
I know Pomona Athiest/Myth Buster hangs out around these forums. This is completely off topic but I read about the 5.2 earthquake that hit AZ today and I wanted to check and make sure you are okay.
Doctor REALITY

Searcy, AR

#12695 Jun 30, 2014
Rowan wrote:
Do not be fooled by christianity.
Do not waste your life by lies
Try to base your life on truth
seek this truth without hesitation
be the best person you can be
Do not allow pastors
to turn you into a sheep
Do not allow pastors
to drive you into their barns
you are not cattle
God made you a free thinking person
Read a reliable source: http://www.jesusneverexisted.com
The Lord prepared hell for people......just like........YOU.

“Free your mind”

Since: Sep 07

Location hidden

#12696 Aug 12, 2014
Shawn wrote:
I know Pomona Athiest/Myth Buster hangs out around these forums. This is completely off topic but I read about the 5.2 earthquake that hit AZ today and I wanted to check and make sure you are okay.
Have you see PA around yet? I've not been on in a while and have wondered myself.

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