Jehovah's Witnesses are true disciple...

“A sentient umbrella speaks”

Since: Mar 11

Some stable somewhere

#35658 Jul 29, 2013
Dogen wrote:
<quoted text>
I am certainly not espousing an anthropomorphic, theistic, deity that man creates in his own image.
And I am aware of Students limitations.
Are you beyond limitations imposed by human belief systems?
I don't believe I answered in a way that suggested you were supporting contemporary religious conceptions of deities. Still, though you aren't espousing the idea, you're basing our discussion on a conception possible only because of religious influence.

No, I am not beyond the limitations imposed by human belief systems. That's impossible. I'm trained to recognize my limitations, though, and recognize and test for the underlying cultural currents in belief, experience and performance.

“A sentient umbrella speaks”

Since: Mar 11

Some stable somewhere

#35659 Jul 29, 2013
Dogen wrote:
<quoted text>
I don't like the term "designer" but since "God" is even more tainted I guess I will not object.
Any sort of universal consciousness, if it exists, would be far beyond our conceptualization of it. In other words I agree with you. I mention Buddhism as it has no a priori beliefs. Buddhism is more of a collection of techniques to free oneself from bondage to beliefs. There is nothing in Buddhism that is beyond question, even the utility of Buddhism itself. Buddhism has no ideas or teaching about god(s) and never proclaims the existence of them.
"The religion of the future will be a cosmic religion. It should transcend personal God and avoid dogma and theology. Covering both the natural and the spiritual, it should be based on a religious sense arising from the experience of all things natural and spiritual as a meaningful unity. Buddhism answers this description. If there is any religion that could cope with modern scientific needs it would be Buddhism." - Albert Einstein.
I keep bringing up Buddhism just to point out that you are placing all religions into a theistic box that should be reserved for Western Religions.
Your understanding of Buddhism differs than mine. I have two Buddhist monk friends, each with their own temple. One, in Hawaii, has similar ceremonies to Christianity - his literature even writes "Buddha loves you, and has a plan for your life."

The other, who's temple is in Japan (south of Tokyo), refuses to engage in argument or discuss his religion, though he has shown me around his temple and pointed out the sanctified areas.

In Japan, Buddhism is performance. Most Buddhists are functional atheists - they don't care about the deeper meaning of the ritual they're carry out, it's for social performance only.

I can't believe that Buddhists don't have a priori beliefs. Those are necessary - like the experience of color vision, or pain, or wind blowing. Without beliefs, they couldn't facilitate such experiences.

“A sentient umbrella speaks”

Since: Mar 11

Some stable somewhere

#35660 Jul 29, 2013
Dogen wrote:
<quoted text>
Yon is sort of my buddy here, but I have to 100% agree with you on this. Creationism simply does not have any explanatory nor predictive power and evolution packs tons of it. Creationism cannot be falsified and therefore simply is not science.
The universe is perfectly capable of forming life and provides mechanisms for evolution. If the universe is the product of an intelligent force that we cannot understand then all of this would have been included.
Yup.
"God" (whatever that means) is not the universes baby sitter nor repair man.
I don't think such a thing exists.
Personally I think science is closer to God than most religions.
Religions believe prepackaged dogma and Science studies and works toward a better understanding of the universe.
We disagree here, in some respects.

:)
Student

Oregon City, OR

#35661 Jul 29, 2013
yon wrote:
magazines or books
Ecclesiastes 12:12 "And furthermore, my son, be admonished: of making many books there is no end; and much study is a weariness of the flesh."
Solomon was not discouraging reading; he was just advising you to be selective.

“May you be at peace.”

Since: Nov 07

Mars

#35663 Jul 29, 2013
Hidingfromyou wrote:
<quoted text>
I don't believe I answered in a way that suggested you were supporting contemporary religious conceptions of deities. Still, though you aren't espousing the idea, you're basing our discussion on a conception possible only because of religious influence.
No, I am not beyond the limitations imposed by human belief systems. That's impossible. I'm trained to recognize my limitations, though, and recognize and test for the underlying cultural currents in belief, experience and performance.

Fair enough. I to am trained in science (M.S.).

Just as cultural influences tell me to believe in a deity they also tell me that I can buy food at a grocery store. I do not necessarily presume that all cultural influences are wrong.

Anyhoot, I find no fault in you. Go thy way and continue to attempt to separate influences based on your culturally based beliefs, experiences and performance.

Let me know if you end up seeing the back of your head.

;)

“May you be at peace.”

Since: Nov 07

Mars

#35664 Jul 29, 2013
Hidingfromyou wrote:
<quoted text>
Your understanding of Buddhism differs than mine. I have two Buddhist monk friends, each with their own temple. One, in Hawaii, has similar ceremonies to Christianity - his literature even writes "Buddha loves you, and has a plan for your life."
The other, who's temple is in Japan (south of Tokyo), refuses to engage in argument or discuss his religion, though he has shown me around his temple and pointed out the sanctified areas.
In Japan, Buddhism is performance. Most Buddhists are functional atheists - they don't care about the deeper meaning of the ritual they're carry out, it's for social performance only.
I can't believe that Buddhists don't have a priori beliefs. Those are necessary - like the experience of color vision, or pain, or wind blowing. Without beliefs, they couldn't facilitate such experiences.

LOL. Yes, temples get handed down a patriarchal lineage.

Your right, my understanding of Buddhism is VERY different from yours. I have never met one of these, but I have read about them. Mostly Pure-land Buddhists. Nothing wrong with any form of Buddhism, but just because I have an ancestor that may have been a master with keen insight does not mean I will.

But that is more a reflection of Japanese culture (social rituals) rather than anything about Buddhism. Buddhism does take on the flavor of the culture it is in, to some extent. Go to a Zen monastery some time. They are not passed down like ownership in a piece of property, but rather selected by the current master for his knowledge, understanding and ability to teach those things.

And "functional atheist" is actually a very astute description. All Buddhists "should" be functional atheists.

“May you be at peace.”

Since: Nov 07

Mars

#35665 Jul 29, 2013
Hidingfromyou wrote:
<quoted text>
Yup.
<quoted text>
I don't think such a thing exists.
<quoted text>
We disagree here, in some respects.
:)

Nothing wrong with honest disagreement.

I have two friends who I have known most of my life. One is a militant Christian and the other is an Atheist. I get along much better with the Atheist.

Have you ever read the Tao Te Ching?

“A sentient umbrella speaks”

Since: Mar 11

Some stable somewhere

#35666 Jul 29, 2013
Dogen wrote:
<quoted text>
Fair enough. I to am trained in science (M.S.).
Just as cultural influences tell me to believe in a deity they also tell me that I can buy food at a grocery store. I do not necessarily presume that all cultural influences are wrong.
Anyhoot, I find no fault in you. Go thy way and continue to attempt to separate influences based on your culturally based beliefs, experiences and performance.
Let me know if you end up seeing the back of your head.
;)
hahaha!

Dogen's stamp of approval, I shall wear it proudly.

“A sentient umbrella speaks”

Since: Mar 11

Some stable somewhere

#35667 Jul 29, 2013
Dogen wrote:
<quoted text>
LOL. Yes, temples get handed down a patriarchal lineage.
Your right, my understanding of Buddhism is VERY different from yours. I have never met one of these, but I have read about them. Mostly Pure-land Buddhists. Nothing wrong with any form of Buddhism, but just because I have an ancestor that may have been a master with keen insight does not mean I will.
But that is more a reflection of Japanese culture (social rituals) rather than anything about Buddhism. Buddhism does take on the flavor of the culture it is in, to some extent. Go to a Zen monastery some time. They are not passed down like ownership in a piece of property, but rather selected by the current master for his knowledge, understanding and ability to teach those things.
And "functional atheist" is actually a very astute description. All Buddhists "should" be functional atheists.
Yeah, Japanese Buddhism is not Indian Buddhism or Chinese Buddhism or American Buddhism, but it's the only one I have any experience with :)

That's interesting, your last sentence - I didn't know it applied to the other Buddhists, just thought that was an artifact of Japanese culture.

Our family has a butsudan, a shrine that houses a protector deity (kamisama), and sometimes ancestors, for our house. Though we give the kamisama beer and rice on some occasions, we don't believe in it and tossed it in the closet. If this was 200 years ago, people would think we were risking pissing off the deity!

“A sentient umbrella speaks”

Since: Mar 11

Some stable somewhere

#35668 Jul 29, 2013
Dogen wrote:
<quoted text>
Nothing wrong with honest disagreement.
I have two friends who I have known most of my life. One is a militant Christian and the other is an Atheist. I get along much better with the Atheist.
Have you ever read the Tao Te Ching?
Nope, no idea what that is.

I guess I have a couple Christian friends. Most of the friends I made who were Christian have since moved on and become atheists. Ah, maturity :)

“"None shall pass"”

Since: Jul 11

There

#35670 Jul 29, 2013
Hidingfromyou wrote:
<quoted text>
Nope, no idea what that is.
I guess I have a couple Christian friends. Most of the friends I made who were Christian have since moved on and become atheists. Ah, maturity :)
Sorry to but in.

The Tao Te Ching is a great read... well, it depends on the translation you use. Taoism (he philosophy NOT the religion) is atheistic and makes a lot of sense.

“"None shall pass"”

Since: Jul 11

There

#35671 Jul 29, 2013
My translation of the opeming verses of the Tao Te Ching:

Existence can not be explained.
Words may be used to describe it
but they are all incomplete.

“A sentient umbrella speaks”

Since: Mar 11

Some stable somewhere

#35672 Jul 29, 2013
G_O_D wrote:
My translation of the opeming verses of the Tao Te Ching:
Existence can not be explained.
Words may be used to describe it
but they are all incomplete.
That sums the social sciences up nicely :)
Student

Oregon City, OR

#35673 Jul 29, 2013
Daily Text


Tuesday, July 30

Salvation belongs to Jehovah. Your blessing is upon your people.—Ps. 3:8.

Although David has monumental problems because of Absalom’s treachery, he bears in mind Jehovah’s people in general and is confident that God will bless them. Should we not also keep our fellow believers in mind? Let us remember them in our prayers, asking Jehovah to give them his holy spirit so that they can muster up courage and can act with confidence in declaring the good news.(Eph. 6:17-20) Does David rejoice when he learns of Absalom’s death? No. Instead, he weeps and cries out:“O that I might have died ... instead of you, Absalom my son, my son!”(2 Sam. 18:24-33) Only Joab’s words bring David out of his nearly overwhelming grief. What a tragic end for Absalom, whose blind ambition prompted him to fight against his own father—Jehovah’s anointed—and bring disaster upon himself!—2 Sam. 19:1-8; Prov. 12:21; 24:21, 22.(Examining the Scriptures Daily 2013)

“A sentient umbrella speaks”

Since: Mar 11

Some stable somewhere

#35675 Jul 30, 2013
yon wrote:
"WT Society uses Guilt & Fear to Avoid Friendship & Internet"
http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/jw/friends/19...
What about skinship?

“May you be at peace.”

Since: Nov 07

Mars

#35676 Jul 30, 2013
Hidingfromyou wrote:
<quoted text>
hahaha!
Dogen's stamp of approval, I shall wear it proudly.

That and a buck 50 will get you a coke at McDonald's.

“May you be at peace.”

Since: Nov 07

Mars

#35677 Jul 30, 2013
Hidingfromyou wrote:
<quoted text>
Yeah, Japanese Buddhism is not Indian Buddhism or Chinese Buddhism or American Buddhism, but it's the only one I have any experience with :)
That's interesting, your last sentence - I didn't know it applied to the other Buddhists, just thought that was an artifact of Japanese culture.
Our family has a butsudan, a shrine that houses a protector deity (kamisama), and sometimes ancestors, for our house. Though we give the kamisama beer and rice on some occasions, we don't believe in it and tossed it in the closet. If this was 200 years ago, people would think we were risking pissing off the deity!

There is nothing wrong with Japanese Buddhism, per se, but when most Americans think of Japanese Buddhism they think of Zen, but actually Zen is not that much of a factor in Japan. I don't usually want to malign other Buddhist sects, but when they are just going through the motions it is worthless.

As I indicated before, Buddhism takes on the characteristics of the culture it move into. There are something like 11 schools of Buddhism in Japan. I only know much about the Zen schools (Rinzai
& S&#333;t&#333;). They do not pass down temples to their eldest son like many of the others do.

I am not into superstitious stuff regardless of its association with a religion. I have a nice statue of the Buddha in my study/meditation room. I will also rub Hoti's belly just to be funny and not because I take it seriously for a second.

“May you be at peace.”

Since: Nov 07

Mars

#35678 Jul 30, 2013
Hidingfromyou wrote:
<quoted text>
Nope, no idea what that is.
I guess I have a couple Christian friends. Most of the friends I made who were Christian have since moved on and become atheists. Ah, maturity :)

The Tao Te Ching is the original book on Taoism by Lao Tzu. It is more of a philosophy of life than a religion (though, even here you can find "religious" Taoists. It is a book that has some great ideas in it, especially if you can read to understand what the author is actually saying and not trying to argue with it every step of the way. And it is very short. I highly recommend the Gia-fu Feng and Jane English translation (English). There are good translations in every major language in the world.

I think it is good for a Christian to become an Atheist. It certainly cleared the cobwebs out of my head. If I could I think I would force everyone to be an atheist for at least a few years! LOL. Certainly clears out the superstitious nonsense that make up the body of most religions.

I started Buddhist practice (zen meditation) because it was a practice, not for religious reasons. It did open me up to Jesus' teachings about love and his non literal understandings, however.

“May you be at peace.”

Since: Nov 07

Mars

#35679 Jul 30, 2013
yon wrote:
<quoted text>
1 Corinthians 10:21
"Ye cannot drink the cup of Yahweh, and the cup of demons: ye cannot partake of the table of the Lord, and of the table of demons."

Are you suggesting my fundy friend is a demon? That actually would make a certain amount of sense....

“May you be at peace.”

Since: Nov 07

Mars

#35680 Jul 30, 2013
G_O_D wrote:
<quoted text>
Sorry to but in.
The Tao Te Ching is a great read... well, it depends on the translation you use. Taoism (he philosophy NOT the religion) is atheistic and makes a lot of sense.

I agree completely with your points.

I would add that the Tao is atheistic but not necessarily a-deistic, if you get my drift. The Tao, while not being supernatural is, to some degree, supernormal.

There is an old saying (actually about Zen but close enough): "It is just like everyday life only about 2 inches off the ground."


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