Since: Jul 10

Location hidden

#34525 May 18, 2013
Dogen wrote:
<quoted text>
Yep.
http://www.chocd.org/
A cult I was once involved in, so I know about cults from the inside.
If you were a member, then you got to be the most ignorant person I've ever known to be a member of the Church of Christ, without a doubt, you just don't make sense.
Student

Oregon City, OR

#34529 May 18, 2013
What happened to true Christianity after the first century?

In an illustration, Jesus had warned that the Devil would sow “weeds,” imitation Christians, in among “the wheat,” true Christians,“the sons of the kingdom.” Both would grow together until “the harvest,” the “conclusion of a system of things.”(Matt. 13:24-30, 36-43) During the great apostasy that developed after the death of the apostles,“the weeds” predominated for many centuries.

But what about “the wheat”? Who were among “the sons of the kingdom” during the centuries-long apostasy? We cannot say for a certainty. The literal weeds of Jesus’ illustration are generally considered to be bearded darnel, which very much resembles wheat until maturity, when it can readily be distinguished from wheat by its smaller black seeds. Similarly, only at “the harvest” would a clear distinction be made between imitation Christians and the true “sons of the kingdom.”

Nevertheless, Jesus said:“Let both grow together until the harvest.” True Christianity, then, was never completely stamped out.

Throughout the centuries there have always been truth lovers. To mention just a few: John Wycliffe (c. 1330-1384) and William Tyndale (c. 1494-1536) furthered the work of Bible translation even at the risk of their life or freedom.

Wolfgang Fabricius Capito (1478-1541), Martin Cellarius (1499-1564), Johannes Campanus (c. 1500-1575), and Thomas Emlyn (1663-c. 1741) accepted the Bible as God’s Word and rejected the Trinity.

Henry Grew (1781-1862) and George Storrs (1796-1879) not only accepted the Bible and rejected the Trinity but also expressed appreciation for the ransom sacrifice of Christ.

The weedlike clergy of Christendom have misled millions for centuries. They have done this by means of God-dishonoring teachings,“things that cause stumbling,” such as the doctrine of eternal punishment in hellfire and the confusing and mysterious Trinity.

Many religious leaders have set a bad example for their flocks by their adulterous friendship with this world and in some cases by their flagrant immoral conduct.(Jas. 4:4) Additionally, Christendom has become increasingly tolerant of immorality among its members.(Read Jude 4.)

Despite all of this, they continue to maintain an outward show of piety and godliness.

How do the weedlike ones weep and gnash their teeth?(Matt. 13:42)

“The sons of the wicked one” are tormented by the fact that “the sons of the kingdom” have exposed the spiritually poisonous condition of these weedlike ones. They also bemoan the diminishing support they receive from their church members, as well as their loss of control over the laity. Read Isaiah 65:13, 14.

In what sense are the weeds collected and burned with fire?(Matt. 13:40)

This refers to the final outcome for the weeds. Their being thrown symbolically into the fiery furnace indicates that they are headed for eternal destruction.(Rev. 20:14; 21:8) The imitation, weedlike Christians, the impostors, will be eradicated during the “great tribulation.”(Matt. 24:21)

The prophet Daniel spoke of our day when he foretold:“The ones having insight will shine like the brightness of the expanse; and those who are bringing the many to righteousness, like the stars to time indefinite, even forever.”(Dan. 12:3)

Who are these ones who shine so brightly? Why, none other than anointed Christians, the genuine wheat that Jesus referred to in his illustration of the wheat and the weeds! The ‘collecting out’ of the weedlike imitation Christians has been clearly recognized by an ever-increasing great crowd of sheeplike ones. In attaching themselves to the remnant of spiritual Israel, these prospective subjects of the Kingdom likewise let their light shine in this bedarkened world.(Zech. 8:23; Matt. 5:14-16; Phil. 2:15)

“I am Sisyphus”

Since: Nov 07

Location hidden

#34531 May 18, 2013
Working for the Lord wrote:
<quoted text> That's pitiful for you to believe that Jesus isn't loved.

That was a good effort at avoiding the real issue. I forgot that CoC's don't understand metaphor or relative terms.

Feel free to substitute "love less" for "hate" if you like. The point remains that CoC focuses most of their attention on Paul and his teachings to the near exclusion of what Jesus taught.


Dogen wrote:
<quoted text>
"Judged not ...."
Another thing about the CoC is they love Paul and hate Jesus. I remember keeping a running total through a few services as to how often Paul was quoted vs. how often Jesus was quoted. I don't remember the exact number but one would have though Paul the savior and Jesus the Johnny come lately.
I actually remember the minister saying that Paul clarified what Jesus meant!!!!
PAUL clarified what JESUS MEANT!!!!!! A guy who persecuted Christians CORRECTED what the Son of GOD MEANT!
The conceited, contemptuousness, disdainful, haughtiness of the CoC is just too much.

Since: Jul 10

Location hidden

#34532 May 18, 2013
Dogen wrote:
<quoted text>
That was a good effort at avoiding the real issue. I forgot that CoC's don't understand metaphor or relative terms.
Feel free to substitute "love less" for "hate" if you like. The point remains that CoC focuses most of their attention on Paul and his teachings to the near exclusion of what Jesus taught.
Dogen wrote:
<quoted text>
"Judged not ...."
Another thing about the CoC is they love Paul and hate Jesus. I remember keeping a running total through a few services as to how often Paul was quoted vs. how often Jesus was quoted. I don't remember the exact number but one would have though Paul the savior and Jesus the Johnny come lately.
I actually remember the minister saying that Paul clarified what Jesus meant!!!!
PAUL clarified what JESUS MEANT!!!!!! A guy who persecuted Christians CORRECTED what the Son of GOD MEANT!
The conceited, contemptuousness, disdainful, haughtiness of the CoC is just too much.
I'm a member of the CoC and no one hates Jesus, this allows me to call you a liar. Paul wrote many books in the NT, which has nothing to do with hating Jesus or thinking Paul is more worthy than Jesus. Your idiotic analogy shows your true ignorance to the truth.

“I am Sisyphus”

Since: Nov 07

Location hidden

#34534 May 18, 2013
yon wrote:
"What do the Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons, Catholics, and the Church of Christ denomination all have in common? They each claim to have THE Way; THE Truth; and THE Life, and that no one gets to heaven without being a part of their organization! Certainly they can't all be right since their individual doctrinal beliefs are diametrically opposed to one another. On this web site we will endeavor to examine the claim of the Church of Christ to be God's sole representative on the earth today, and answer the question, "Is the Church of Christ Denomination A Cult?"
http://www.chocd.org/
Thanks for the link.

No problem.

I know a lot of CoC survivors. We went through the ordeal of leaving the cult independently, but it was mostly due to coming to the same conclusions about the church.

That said I still have a friend that is a CoC minister, but he is more moderate than most.

“I am Sisyphus”

Since: Nov 07

Location hidden

#34535 May 18, 2013
yon wrote:
<quoted text>
Psalm 150
Praise God in his sanctuary;
praise him in his mighty heavens.
2 Praise him for his acts of power;
praise him for his surpassing greatness.
3 Praise him with the sounding of the trumpet,
praise him with the harp and lyre,
4 praise him with timbrel and dancing,
praise him with the strings and pipe,
5 praise him with the clash of cymbals,
praise him with resounding cymbals.

The CoC essentially rejects the O.T. unless it suits their purpose.

“I am Sisyphus”

Since: Nov 07

Location hidden

#34537 May 18, 2013
Student wrote:
What happened to true Christianity after the first century?
In an illustration, Jesus had warned that the Devil would sow “weeds,” imitation Christians, in among “the wheat,” true Christians,“the sons of the kingdom.” Both would grow together until “the harvest,” the “conclusion of a system of things.”(Matt. 13:24-30, 36-43) During the great apostasy that developed after the death of the apostles,“the weeds” predominated for many centuries.
But what about “the wheat”? Who were among “the sons of the kingdom” during the centuries-long apostasy? We cannot say for a certainty. The literal weeds of Jesus’ illustration are generally considered to be bearded darnel, which very much resembles wheat until maturity, when it can readily be distinguished from wheat by its smaller black seeds. Similarly, only at “the harvest” would a clear distinction be made between imitation Christians and the true “sons of the kingdom.”
Nevertheless, Jesus said:“Let both grow together until the harvest.” True Christianity, then, was never completely stamped out.
Throughout the centuries there have always been truth lovers. To mention just a few: John Wycliffe (c. 1330-1384) and William Tyndale (c. 1494-1536) furthered the work of Bible translation even at the risk of their life or freedom.
Wolfgang Fabricius Capito (1478-1541), Martin Cellarius (1499-1564), Johannes Campanus (c. 1500-1575), and Thomas Emlyn (1663-c. 1741) accepted the Bible as God’s Word and rejected the Trinity.
Henry Grew (1781-1862) and George Storrs (1796-1879) not only accepted the Bible and rejected the Trinity but also expressed appreciation for the ransom sacrifice of Christ.
The weedlike clergy of Christendom have misled millions for centuries. They have done this by means of God-dishonoring teachings,“things that cause stumbling,” such as the doctrine of eternal punishment in hellfire and the confusing and mysterious Trinity.
Many religious leaders have set a bad example for their flocks by their adulterous friendship with this world and in some cases by their flagrant immoral conduct.(Jas. 4:4) Additionally, Christendom has become increasingly tolerant of immorality among its members.(Read Jude 4.)
Despite all of this, they continue to maintain an outward show of piety and godliness.
How do the weedlike ones weep and gnash their teeth?(Matt. 13:42)
“The sons of the wicked one” are tormented by the fact that “the sons of the kingdom” have exposed the spiritually poisonous condition of these weedlike ones. They also bemoan the diminishing support they receive from their church members, as well as their loss of control over the laity. Read Isaiah 65:13, 14.
In what sense are the weeds collected and burned with fire?(Matt. 13:40)
This refers to the final outcome for the weeds. Their being thrown symbolically into the fiery furnace indicates that they are headed for eternal destruction.(Rev. 20:14; 21:8) The imitation, weedlike Christians, the impostors, will be eradicated during the “great tribulation.”(Matt. 24:21)
The prophet Daniel spoke of our day when he foretold:“The ones having insight will shine like the brightness of the expanse; and those who are bringing the many to righteousness, like the stars to time indefinite, even forever.”(Dan. 12:3)
Who are these ones who shine so brightly? Why, none other than anointed Christians, the genuine wheat that Jesus referred to in his illustration of the wheat and the weeds! The ‘collecting out’ of the weedlike imitation Christians has been clearly recognized by an ever-increasing great crowd of sheeplike ones. In attaching themselves to the remnant of spiritual Israel, these prospective subjects of the Kingdom likewise let their light shine in this bedarkened world.(Zech. 8:23; Matt. 5:14-16; Phil. 2:15)

Why are you beating this dead dog?

Don't you have anything useful to say?
Student

Oregon City, OR

#34538 May 18, 2013
Dogen wrote:
<quoted text>
Why are you beating this dead dog?
Don't you have anything useful to say?
Christianity is not dead!!

Jesus told his followers that they would be recognized by a love that transcends racial, national, and all other boundaries. He said:“I am giving you a new commandment, that you love one another; just as I have loved you, that you also love one another.” Then he added:“By this all will know that you are my disciples, if you have love among yourselves.”(John 13:34, 35; 15:12, 13)

Jesus even taught his followers to love their enemies.(Matthew 5:43-45)

Is Christlike love practiced by anybody today? The Encyclopedia Canadiana observes:“The work of Jehovah’s Witnesses is the revival and re-establishment of the primitive Christianity practised by Jesus and his disciples ... All are brothers.”

What does that mean? It means that Jehovah’s Witnesses allow nothing—neither race, nationality, nor ethnic background—to cause them to hate their neighbors. Nor will they kill anyone, for they have figuratively beaten their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning shears, as the Bible foretold true servants of God would.(Isaiah 2:4)

No wonder an editorial in California’s Sacramento Union noted:“Suffice it to say that if all the world lived by the creed of the Jehovah Witnesses there would be an end of bloodshed and hatred, and love would reign as king”!

“I am Sisyphus”

Since: Nov 07

Location hidden

#34541 May 18, 2013
Student wrote:
<quoted text>
Christianity is not dead!!
Jesus told his followers that they would be recognized by a love that transcends racial, national, and all other boundaries. He said:“I am giving you a new commandment, that you love one another; just as I have loved you, that you also love one another.” Then he added:“By this all will know that you are my disciples, if you have love among yourselves.”(John 13:34, 35; 15:12, 13)
Jesus even taught his followers to love their enemies.(Matthew 5:43-45)
Is Christlike love practiced by anybody today? The Encyclopedia Canadiana observes:“The work of Jehovah’s Witnesses is the revival and re-establishment of the primitive Christianity practised by Jesus and his disciples ... All are brothers.”
What does that mean? It means that Jehovah’s Witnesses allow nothing—neither race, nationality, nor ethnic background—to cause them to hate their neighbors. Nor will they kill anyone, for they have figuratively beaten their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning shears, as the Bible foretold true servants of God would.(Isaiah 2:4)
No wonder an editorial in California’s Sacramento Union noted:“Suffice it to say that if all the world lived by the creed of the Jehovah Witnesses there would be an end of bloodshed and hatred, and love would reign as king”!

Your so full of crap you can't even address the actual issues so you have to make them up.

Nice quote-mine (lie) by the way.
Student

Oregon City, OR

#34542 May 18, 2013
Dogen wrote:
<quoted text>
Your so full of crap you can't even address the actual issues so you have to make them up.
Nice quote-mine (lie) by the way.
Jesus said in John 13:34, 35- I am giving YOU a new commandment, that YOU love one another; just as I have loved YOU, that YOU also love one another. 35 By this all will know that YOU are my disciples, if YOU have love among yourselves.”

That my friend is not a lie.

Jesus’ teachings about love, backed up by his example, worked a first-century miracle. His followers came to imitate their Master, learning to love one another in a way that drew widespread attention and admiration. Tertullian, a writer of the second and third centuries C.E., quoted non-Christians as commending Jesus’ followers:‘See how they love one another and how they are ready to die for one another.’

Just by you responding like you do to most of the poster here show that you do NOT have any of this love.

You know who is the father of lie is, Satan the Devil and your hostile words keep on proving that you certainly are his son.

“I am Sisyphus”

Since: Nov 07

Location hidden

#34543 May 18, 2013
Student wrote:
<quoted text>
Jesus said in John 13:34, 35- I am giving YOU a new commandment, that YOU love one another; just as I have loved YOU, that YOU also love one another. 35 By this all will know that YOU are my disciples, if YOU have love among yourselves.”
That my friend is not a lie.
Jesus’ teachings about love, backed up by his example, worked a first-century miracle. His followers came to imitate their Master, learning to love one another in a way that drew widespread attention and admiration. Tertullian, a writer of the second and third centuries C.E., quoted non-Christians as commending Jesus’ followers:‘See how they love one another and how they are ready to die for one another.’
Just by you responding like you do to most of the poster here show that you do NOT have any of this love.
You know who is the father of lie is, Satan the Devil and your hostile words keep on proving that you certainly are his son.

So, I caught you in another lie (quote-mine) and you respond by calling Satan my father. Remember, it is your cult that has lied throughout its history. It is you I caught in a quote-mine (lie).

Was Jesus nice to the money changers, to the scribes,....? I think not.

What cult today operates exactly like the pharisees?

Your kind are all hypocrites. You trash the bible, make up your own to replace it, can't answer questions or do so in the most deceitful manor.

You have fallen into a typical mind control cult. I cannot help you. You have to make a choice to help yourself. Do HONEST investigation of what your cult tells you. Don't look at THEIR research (what do you think it will say?). Look for the truth.

I promise you that if you truly seek you can find Yahweh. I took up this challenge when I was the member of a cult (Church of Christ) and it gave me the courage to investigate.

Ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free.

Imprisonment in a satanic cult is not freedom. You feel free only because you have never tried to get out.

Try the door and you will find it is locked.

Turn against the cult and your "friends" will turn against you and will call you evil names.

But it is worth it.

Student

Oregon City, OR

#34544 May 19, 2013
Dogen wrote:
<quoted text>
So, I caught you in another lie (quote-mine) and you respond by calling Satan my father. Remember, it is your cult that has lied throughout its history. It is you I caught in a quote-mine (lie).
Satan is your father, as he is the father of all liars. Jesus Christ identified the first liar, and he showed that it was not a human. He said:“When he [Satan] speaks the lie, he speaks according to his own disposition, because he is a liar and the father of the lie.”(John 8:44)

2 Corinthians 4:3-4
3 If, now, the good news we declare is in fact veiled, it is veiled among those who are perishing, 4 among whom the god of this system of things has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, that the illumination of the glorious good news about the Christ, who is the image of God, might not shine through
Student

Oregon City, OR

#34545 May 19, 2013
Dogen wrote:
<quoted text>
Was Jesus nice to the money changers, to the scribes,....? I think not.
So now you are comparing yourself with Jesus?
Student

Oregon City, OR

#34546 May 19, 2013
Dogen wrote:
<quoted text>
What cult today operates exactly like the Pharisees?
That’s where you are wrong my friend. The trinity doctrine is much like the belief of the Pharisees.“They believe that souls have power to survive death and that there are rewards and punishments under the earth for those who have led lives of virtue or vice: eternal imprisonment is the lot of evil souls, while the good souls receive an easy passage to a new life.”(Jewish Antiquities, XVIII, 14 [i, 3])
Student

Oregon City, OR

#34547 May 19, 2013
Dogen wrote:
<quoted text>
Your kind are all hypocrites. You trash the bible, make up your own to replace it, can't answer questions or do so in the most deceitful manor.
You, like certain apostates today, are disloyally working as Satan’s agents to undermine the faith of newly associated members of the Christian congregation.(2 Corinthians 11:13)

Rather than simply use the Bible as the basis for true teachings, they concentrate on trying to discredit the New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures, as if Jehovah’s Witnesses were wholly dependent on it for support.

But this is not so. For the best part of a century, the Witnesses used primarily the King James Version, the Roman Catholic Douay Version, or whatever versions were available in their language, to learn the truth about Jehovah and his purposes.

And they used these older versions in proclaiming the truth about the condition of the dead, the relationship between God and his Son, and why only a little flock go to heaven.

Informed persons are also aware that Jehovah’s Witnesses continue to use many translations of the Bible in their worldwide evangelizing work.

Since 1961, however, they have additionally enjoyed the use of the New World Translation, with its updated, accurate translation and fine readability.
Student

Oregon City, OR

#34548 May 19, 2013
Dogen wrote:
<quoted text>
You have fallen into a typical mind control cult. I cannot help you. You have to make a choice to help yourself. Do HONEST investigation of what your cult tells you. Don't look at THEIR research (what do you think it will say?). Look for the truth.
The apostle John, writing his first general letter over 60 years after Jesus’ death and resurrection, counseled that Christians should “not believe every inspired expression, but test the inspired expressions to see whether they originate with God.”(1 John 4:1)

I have, and so should you!
Student

Oregon City, OR

#34549 May 19, 2013
Dogen wrote:
<quoted text>
I promise you that if you truly seek you can find Yahweh. I took up this challenge when I was the member of a cult (Church of Christ) and it gave me the courage to investigate.

Ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free.

Imprisonment in a satanic cult is not freedom. You feel free only because you have never tried to get out.

Try the door and you will find it is locked.

Turn against the cult and your "friends" will turn against you and will call you evil names.

But it is worth it.
It takes a lot of courage to become one of Jesus Christ followers. Surrounded as we are by this world’s attitudes and conduct, we need courage to resist contamination.

True Christians deal with moral, social, financial, and religious pressures that could cause them to deviate from Jehovah’s righteous ways. Many face family opposition. Jesus’ example shows us how we can succeed.

Jesus told his disciples:“In the world you are having tribulation, but take courage! I have conquered the world.”(John 16:33)

He never yielded to the world’s influence. He never allowed the world to stop him from carrying out his preaching commission or to cause him to lower his standards for true worship and proper conduct; nor should we.

“I am Sisyphus”

Since: Nov 07

Location hidden

#34554 May 19, 2013
Student wrote:
<quoted text>
Satan is your father, as he is the father of all liars. Jesus Christ identified the first liar, and he showed that it was not a human. He said:“When he [Satan] speaks the lie, he speaks according to his own disposition, because he is a liar and the father of the lie.”(John 8:44)
2 Corinthians 4:3-4
3 If, now, the good news we declare is in fact veiled, it is veiled among those who are perishing, 4 among whom the god of this system of things has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, that the illumination of the glorious good news about the Christ, who is the image of God, might not shine through

So you, a known and confirmed liar, are accusing me of being a liar.

But that is simply another lie on your part.


You simply cannot address the facts I post therefore have to find another means to save face. I don't blame you. You live in a nest of liars. How can you not act like them and survive?

I have given you the links that expose your cult. I bet you never looked at them!!!! Cowardice is another trait True followers of Jesus should not possess. God will look out for you, so why be afraid to seek the truth.

Until you muster the courage to read the truth about your cult you are useless to yourself.


“I am Sisyphus”

Since: Nov 07

Location hidden

#34555 May 19, 2013
Student wrote:
<quoted text>
So now you are comparing yourself with Jesus?

Of course. He is my leader, my brother and my earthly example. I don't measure up to him, but that is not for lack of trying on my part.
Ephesians 4:26-27
Rom 3:23
1 John 3:4

1 Sam 11:1-6
1 Sam 20:24-35
Mark 3:1-5
Matthew 21:12-13
Luke 19:45-48

“I am Sisyphus”

Since: Nov 07

Location hidden

#34556 May 19, 2013
Student wrote:
<quoted text>
That’s where you are wrong my friend. The trinity doctrine is much like the belief of the Pharisees.“They believe that souls have power to survive death and that there are rewards and punishments under the earth for those who have led lives of virtue or vice: eternal imprisonment is the lot of evil souls, while the good souls receive an easy passage to a new life.”(Jewish Antiquities, XVIII, 14 [i, 3])

There is that dead dog being beaten again.

You don't even seem to understand why Jesus called the Pharisees and Sadducees out. Hint: it was not so much their theology.

Their theological errors where similar to yours.

Sadducees
Deuteronomy 4:2 (changed the word)
Revered the written word above the spirit
Where literalists about the written word.
Believed that the soul perished at death
Denied the existence of a spiritual world

Pharisees were actually much more like Jesus and shared a common theology. They agreed on the Law but were more literal and conservative than Jesus. Jesus was the ultimate liberal (not in a political sense). He believe in understanding Yahweh's word in a common sense, rational, practical way.

----------

So, if it was not theology that was at issue, then what problem did he have with these groups?

If you find what angered Jesus about these groups, you will find what he what he would dislike about the Watchtower cult.

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