Student

Oregon City, OR

#34451 May 15, 2013
Dogen wrote:
<quoted text>
Apparently you do never COMPREHEND my postings.
Trinitarianism is a dead horse. We don't need a modern cult to tell educated people that.
FURTHERMORE: many other concepts (most that the JW cult accepts) are ALSO of PAGAN ORIGINS.
Maybe I am beating a brain dead horse.
Are you serious? I answered your question from you’re post # 34445 about my post of 34441 and how you completely skip my answer with this garbage. Are you senile?

Since: Jul 10

Location hidden

#34452 May 15, 2013
Dogen wrote:
<quoted text>
<quoted text>
My analogy is not incorrect and you have failed to demonstrate your point. The scripture is completely lucid. There is no indication that Yahweh gave the command for health reasons.
==========
Musical Instruments were clearly used in OT time and there is no prohibition against them anywhere in the NT. That alone should be clear and convincing. However:
Psalm 33:2
Psalm 71:22 57:7-9; 81:1-2; 92:1-3; 108:1-3; 144:9
Psalm 6 (note the title)
1 Chronicles 15:14-28
2 Samuel 6:2-5
1 Chronicles 16:4-5
1 Chronicles 23:5
1 Chronicles 25:6
2 Chronicles 5:12-14
2 Chronicles 29:24-28
Nehemiah 12:35-36
Ezra 3:10
Nehemiah 12:27
******
Revelation 5:8-9, 14, Revelation 14:2-3, and Revelation 15:3
******
Musical instruments were not mentioned in the Law, but were clearly used and were pleasing to God.
NOR is there a prohibition from the earliest Christian writers. Prohibition against instruments did not appear till later. Late in the 2nd century is the earliest I know of (The Gnostic Clement of Alexandria in 185 a.d.).
http://www.tektonics.org/af/cocmusic.html
Early Christian painting showed instruments being used in worship.
http://www.amazon.com/Worship-Christian-Antiq...
http://archive.org/stream/bibliographyofmu00s...
Implied reference:
1 Corinthians 14:7
It is true that instrumental music died out after the destruction of the temple in 70 a.d. among both Christians and Jews.
Part of the reason may have been due to the cost of making, purchasing and maintaining such instruments.
Most early Christians were poor so instruments in services may simply not have been a luxury they could afford.
----------
__________
Bottom line.
1. History of using instruments.
2. No prohibition against using them in the NT
= no problem using them today.
What's the old testament laws got to do with the new testament laws? No where are musical instruments mentioned in the new testament and NEVER did they use them in worship. God tells us he commands singing, Ephesians 5;19, 19 singing psalms and hymns and spiritual songs among yourselves, and making music to the Lord in your hearts Colossians 3:16 16 Let the message about Christ, in all its richness, fill your lives. Teach and counsel each other with all the wisdom he gives. Sing psalms and hymns and spiritual songs to God with thankful hearts. Thats right they may have been a luxury and God knew how to make sure that in what ever they did they done without being a cost and never would have burden his people with such a cost when the spirit is what he wants to hear , not a clanging noise maker.

Since: Jul 10

Location hidden

#34453 May 15, 2013
Dogen wrote:
<quoted text>
Apparently you do never COMPREHEND my postings.
Trinitarianism is a dead horse. We don't need a modern cult to tell educated people that.
FURTHERMORE: many other concepts (most that the JW cult accepts) are ALSO of PAGAN ORIGINS.
Maybe I am beating a brain dead horse.
Care to tell us where you go to church, after all you know where we go, so tell us where you go.

Since: Jul 10

Location hidden

#34454 May 15, 2013
yon wrote:
They have no fear of Yahweh. They eat pork and keep the RCC sabbath.
They to are a false religion.

Since: Nov 08

Philadelphia, PA

#34455 May 15, 2013
yon wrote:
<quoted text>
What was the special way the Russell was used that had to be corrected by a drunken attorney?
Did not see this question until today? I am not sure exactly what means, however, not unless you are assuming that I am with the JWs, or that I believe that Rutherford corrected the teachings of Russell. Russell sought to keep everything in the light of the Bible; Rutherford led his group into the "organization" darkness. The central theme of Russell's teaching was the ransom for all; despite Rutherford's claims, the central theme of Rutherford's teaching was Rutherford's organization, which he styled, "Jehovah's visible organization".
Student

Oregon City, OR

#34457 May 16, 2013
yon wrote:
Russell was like the Martin Luther of his day. He corrected some things but held on to others promulgated by the RCC
May I asks what RCC stands for?

“I am Sisyphus”

Since: Nov 07

Location hidden

#34459 May 16, 2013
Student wrote:
<quoted text>
Are you serious? I answered your question from you’re post # 34445 about my post of 34441 and how you completely skip my answer with this garbage. Are you senile?

No, as per typical you avoided the issues and demonstrated you are unable to think.

All of what I posted are facts. Your cult acknowledges the ones they like and ignores the ones they don't like. They enjoy putting on the play of superiority. The cult does not like to acknowledge that there is not much unique to Christianity. All of the beliefs of Christianity are found in (prior existing) Judaism, Paganism or Buddhism.

Pick a concept you think (I know this is asking a lot) is unique to Christianity and I will show where it actually came from.

The point is (simply) that if you want to play the game of where Christian doctrine originated from then it is ALL fair game.

Virgin birth
Son of God
Raised from the dead.
Yadda yadda yadda.

Dogen wrote:
<quoted text>
Apparently you do never COMPREHEND my postings.
Trinitarianism is a dead horse. We don't need a modern cult to tell educated people that.
FURTHERMORE: many other concepts (most that the JW cult accepts) are ALSO of PAGAN ORIGINS.
Maybe I am beating a brain dead horse.

“I am Sisyphus”

Since: Nov 07

Location hidden

#34460 May 16, 2013
Working for the Lord wrote:
<quoted text> What's the old testament laws got to do with the new testament laws?

Musical instruments were NOT part of the OT LAWs.

[QUOTE who="Working for the Lord"]<quoted text> No where are musical instruments mentioned in the new testament and NEVER did they use them in worship.

So? Is the OT only valid to the extent that it is verified by the NT? 99% of the OT is not referenced in the NT so should we throw it out?

[QUOTE who="Working for the Lord"]<quoted text> God tells us he commands singing, Ephesians 5;19, 19 singing psalms and hymns and spiritual songs among yourselves, and making music to the Lord in your hearts Colossians 3:16 16

"music" implies instruments. "Singing" leaves the question of instrumentation open.

[QUOTE who="Working for the Lord"]<quoted text> Let the message about Christ, in all its richness, fill your lives. Teach and counsel each other with all the wisdom he gives. Sing psalms and hymns and spiritual songs to God with thankful hearts. Thats right they may have been a luxury and God knew how to make sure that in what ever they did they done without being a cost and never would have burden his people with such a cost when the spirit is what he wants to hear , not a clanging noise maker.

In the rest of this you don't really make any points. Psalms often had had instrumentation.

Remember the points I made:
1. Instruments were expensive.
2. Most early Christians were from the poorest classes.
3. There was a long tradition of instruments being used in the Temple.
4. Early Christian paintings show instruments being played.
5. God never forbade the use of instruments in worship services OR ANY OTHER TIME.

Also remember that I was also a member of the CoC and know what they believe. Also know that I left the CoC because of their incorrect beliefs.

One of my best friends (friends since the 5th grade) is a CoC minister and his position is that if the NT does not advocate it then it is playing it safe to leave it out. While I disagree with his position I respect it because he knows and admits that it is not a settled issue.

“I am Sisyphus”

Since: Nov 07

Location hidden

#34461 May 16, 2013
Working for the Lord wrote:
<quoted text> Care to tell us where you go to church, after all you know where we go, so tell us where you go.

Oh, I consider myself to be a Historical Christian. But I am a member of the Church of God (Anderson). I do not always fully agree with them but they are very tolerant of opposing views and are very based on Christian scholarship. My nephew (a member of the same church) is currently finishing his masters degree in theology and is choosing among PhD. schools. Like me he seems to enjoy "shocking" people as to what the bible really does and does not say and what the earliest Christians actually believed and practiced.

“I am Sisyphus”

Since: Nov 07

Location hidden

#34462 May 16, 2013
yon wrote:
Russell was like the Martin Luther of his day. He corrected some things but held on to others promulgated by the RCC

Do you know what Martin Luther actually believed? I think many Christians would be shocked at some of the things he said and believed. Not that he did not have a prominent place in the protestant reformation! Obviously he did.

Russell had some good insights, but as you indicate, he still clinged to incorrect doctrine and dogma.

“I am Sisyphus”

Since: Nov 07

Location hidden

#34463 May 16, 2013
Student wrote:
<quoted text>May I asks what RCC stands for?

Seriously?

Roman Catholic Church.

Actually it is good to see a Watchtower cult member asking questions. It indicates there may be hope for you.

Since: Jul 10

Location hidden

#34464 May 16, 2013
Dogen wrote:
<quoted text>
In the rest of this you don't really make any points. Psalms often had had instrumentation.
Remember the points I made:
1. Instruments were expensive.
2. Most early Christians were from the poorest classes.
3. There was a long tradition of instruments being used in the Temple.
4. Early Christian paintings show instruments being played.
5. God never forbade the use of instruments in worship services OR ANY OTHER TIME.
Also remember that I was also a member of the CoC and know what they believe. Also know that I left the CoC because of their incorrect beliefs.
One of my best friends (friends since the 5th grade) is a CoC minister and his position is that if the NT does not advocate it then it is playing it safe to leave it out. While I disagree with his position I respect it because he knows and admits that it is not a settled issue.
He doesn't advocate the use of instruments, he does command the use of singing, because he instructs us to sing.. Again the old testament has nothing to do with the new testament and psalms being in the old testament isn't authorization for the use of instruments. You actually answered your own question on why God wouldn't burden his people with the use of instruments then or now. Singing only is the absolute only way to be as spiritual as possible with God, as he is a spirit, and we are to.

Since: Jul 10

Location hidden

#34465 May 16, 2013
Dogen wrote:
<quoted text>
Oh, I consider myself to be a Historical Christian. But I am a member of the Church of God (Anderson). I do not always fully agree with them but they are very tolerant of opposing views and are very based on Christian scholarship. My nephew (a member of the same church) is currently finishing his masters degree in theology and is choosing among PhD. schools. Like me he seems to enjoy "shocking" people as to what the bible really does and does not say and what the earliest Christians actually believed and practiced.
My friend the Church of God is a false religion. The worship practices are not of the bible, along with many other false practices they have decided to use of their own desire, instead of what God commands. Degrees don't mean much when common sense isn't used. People study and receive degrees and still end up lost, as this shows me with you and your nephew. I do not say this to be rude, I say it to illustrate my point.

Since: Jul 10

Location hidden

#34466 May 16, 2013
Dogen wrote:
<quoted text>
Seriously?
Roman Catholic Church.
Actually it is good to see a Watchtower cult member asking questions. It indicates there may be hope for you.
Not knowing the abbreviation of RCC doesn't necessarily imply a lack of knowledge, because many abbreviations are used and can become a confusing maze, just saying.

“I am Sisyphus”

Since: Nov 07

Location hidden

#34467 May 16, 2013
Working for the Lord wrote:
<quoted text> He doesn't advocate the use of instruments, he does command the use of singing, because he instructs us to sing.. Again the old testament has nothing to do with the new testament and psalms being in the old testament isn't authorization for the use of instruments. You actually answered your own question on why God wouldn't burden his people with the use of instruments then or now. Singing only is the absolute only way to be as spiritual as possible with God, as he is a spirit, and we are to.

You are making assertions you cannot support.

If you have made up your mind that is fine. The facts are that Christianity started as a Jewish sect and music has a long and highly praised history in their religious services. Your last sentence is completely unsupported based on the scriptures.

If God was thorough enough to tell the Jews how to deal with a birds nest then I think he would mention it if he hates instrumental music.

Lev 22:26-30
(similar see Deut 22:6-7)

Just deal with what is IN the bible. This is hardly a big deal if Yahweh omitted reference to it.

“I am Sisyphus”

Since: Nov 07

Location hidden

#34468 May 16, 2013
Working for the Lord wrote:
<quoted text> My friend the Church of God is a false religion. The worship practices are not of the bible, along with many other false practices they have decided to use of their own desire, instead of what God commands. Degrees don't mean much when common sense isn't used. People study and receive degrees and still end up lost, as this shows me with you and your nephew. I do not say this to be rude, I say it to illustrate my point.

I just moved to the Church of God because it was vastly superior to the Church of Christ (falsely so called) in its understanding of the bible and not because it was perfect.

Since: Jul 10

Location hidden

#34469 May 16, 2013
Dogen wrote:
<quoted text>
You are making assertions you cannot support.
If you have made up your mind that is fine. The facts are that Christianity started as a Jewish sect and music has a long and highly praised history in their religious services. Your last sentence is completely unsupported based on the scriptures.
If God was thorough enough to tell the Jews how to deal with a birds nest then I think he would mention it if he hates instrumental music.
Lev 22:26-30
(similar see Deut 22:6-7)
Just deal with what is IN the bible. This is hardly a big deal if Yahweh omitted reference to it.
Ask yourself this, does God command instruments in worship in new testament worship? Stop with the old testament usage as it has nothing to do with what God commands in the new testament, why can't you understand that? God is very thorough in what he commands in worship, by telling us he wants singing only, and he doesn't need to tell you that he commands instruments when he already has told us he wants singing only, that's the reason he doesn't mention instruments in the new testamnet, get your head out of the old and into the new, as the new is the only laws that can save you. Jesus nailed the old testament to the cross.

Since: Jul 10

Location hidden

#34470 May 16, 2013
Dogen wrote:
<quoted text>
I just moved to the Church of God because it was vastly superior to the Church of Christ (falsely so called) in its understanding of the bible and not because it was perfect.
Shows me you lack the truth because of your move from the Church of Christ to the Church of God. I urge you to go back before it's to late.

“I am Sisyphus”

Since: Nov 07

Location hidden

#34471 May 16, 2013
Working for the Lord wrote:
<quoted text> Ask yourself this, does God command instruments in worship in new testament worship? Stop with the old testament usage as it has nothing to do with what God commands in the new testament, why can't you understand that? God is very thorough in what he commands in worship, by telling us he wants singing only, and he doesn't need to tell you that he commands instruments when he already has told us he wants singing only, that's the reason he doesn't mention instruments in the new testamnet, get your head out of the old and into the new, as the new is the only laws that can save you. Jesus nailed the old testament to the cross.

I remember why I left the CoC now. The arrogant presumption that they knew everything about everything and that everyone else was wrong.

I don't remember God commanding his followers to be arrogant and self righteous in the NT. In fact I remember Jesus being fairly clear on what he thought of that attitude.


“I am Sisyphus”

Since: Nov 07

Location hidden

#34472 May 16, 2013
Working for the Lord wrote:
<quoted text> Shows me you lack the truth because of your move from the Church of Christ to the Church of God. I urge you to go back before it's to late.

No thanks. Those bitchs be crazy.

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