Jehovah's Witnesses are true disciple...

“I am Sisyphus”

Since: Nov 07

Location hidden

#34445 May 15, 2013
Student wrote:
THE “HOLY GHOST”
The Greek word translated “ghost” or “spirit” throughout the “New Testament” simply means “a current of air”,‘breath or blast of wind, or breeze.’(Strong’s Concordance)
The “Holy Ghost” or holy spirit is God’s active force by which he accomplishes his purposes, whether they include that of creating, of writing the Scriptures or helping his servants to understand them.—Gen. 1:2; 2 Sam. 23:2, AS; John 14:26; 15:26; 1 Cor. 2:10; 2 Pet. 1:21, NW.
There is no basis for concluding that the holy spirit is a person. The Bible tells of being baptized, which actually means being dipped in or immersed in water, with fire and with the holy spirit. How could the 120 persons at Pentecost be baptized with a person?(Acts 1:5; 2:1-4)
The mere fact that the holy spirit is sometimes given personality does not argue against this, for often in the Scriptures personality is attributed to things not persons, such as Jerusalem, Zion, etc. But nowhere do we read of Jehovah God and Jesus as being referred to by neuter pronouns, which is the case in regard to the holy spirit.
“It is the Spirit of Truth. The world cannot obtain that Spirit, because it does not see it or recognize it; you recognize it because it stays with you and is within you.”(John 14:16, 17, AT; Acts 2:33)
This is further borne out by the frequent lack of the definite article before holy spirit, such as at Acts 2:4 (NW):“And they all became filled with holy spirit.”
Neither Stephen nor John saw any “Holy Ghost” in their visions of heaven.—Acts 7:55; Rev. 5:1-6.

You are committing another criminal act. Do you not know the Watchtower has sued people for quoting their satanic literature without citing them as a source?

Do you know what a CPM is?

Do you know what Spam is?

I accuse you of being the former and doing the later.

“I am Sisyphus”

Since: Nov 07

Location hidden

#34446 May 15, 2013
Student wrote:
Trinity is OF PAGAN ORIGIN

the phrase "Son of God" is also of PAGAN ORIGIN.

It was applied to many people, long before Jesus.

"Born of a Virgin" - also of PAGAN ORIGIN.

Even rising from the dead is well rooted in PAGANISM.

Learn to live with it.
Student

Oregon City, OR

#34447 May 15, 2013
Dogen wrote:
<quoted text>
Again this is not doctrine that is unique to the JW cult. All scholars know this. The fact that the cult gets a few things right via the broken clock method is no indication they are reliable.
How many failed prophecies did the cult put forth?
And how many came true?
That is a 0% hit ratio. This is WORSE than a broken clock!
And what is the standard for a TRUE prophet?
Humm...... the cult only missed by 100%. But I guess that is close enough for you brainwashed zombies.
Prior to the latter part of the year 1914, many Christians expected Christ to return at that time and to take them away to heaven. Thus, in a discourse given on September 30, 1914, A. H. Macmillan, a Bible Student, stated:“This is probably the last public address I shall ever deliver because we shall be going home [to heaven] soon.” Clearly, Macmillan was mistaken, but that was not the only unfulfilled expectation he or his fellow Bible Students had.

Bible Students, known since 1931 as Jehovah’s Witnesses, also expected that the year 1925 would see the fulfillment of marvelous Bible prophecies. They surmised that at that time the earthly resurrection would begin, bringing back faithful men of old, such as Abraham, David, and Daniel. More recently, many Witnesses conjectured that events associated with the beginning of Christ’s Millennial Reign might start to take place in 1975. Their anticipation was based on the understanding that the seventh millennium of human history would begin then.

These erroneous views did not mean that God’s promises were wrong, that he had made a mistake. By no means! The mistakes or misconceptions, as in the case of first-century Christians, were due to a failure to heed Jesus’ caution,‘You do not know the time.’ The wrong conclusions were due, not to malice or to unfaithfulness to Christ, but to a fervent desire to realize the fulfillment of God’s promises in their own time.

Consequently, A. H. Macmillan explained later:“I learned that we should admit our mistakes and continue searching God’s Word for more enlightenment. No matter what adjustments we would have to make from time to time in our views, that would not change the gracious provision of the ransom and God’s promise of eternal life.”

Indeed, God’s promises can be trusted! It is humans who are prone to error. Therefore, true Christians will maintain a waiting attitude in obedience to Jesus’ command. They will keep awake and ready for Christ’s inevitable coming as God’s Executioner. They will not allow false predictions to dull their senses and cause them to ignore the true warning of the world’s end.
g95 6/22 pp. 8-9

“I am Sisyphus”

Since: Nov 07

Location hidden

#34448 May 15, 2013
Student wrote:
<quoted text>
Prior to the latter part of the year 1914, many Christians expected Christ to return at that time and to take them away to heaven. Thus, in a discourse given on September 30, 1914, A. H. Macmillan, a Bible Student, stated:“This is probably the last public address I shall ever deliver because we shall be going home [to heaven] soon.” Clearly, Macmillan was mistaken, but that was not the only unfulfilled expectation he or his fellow Bible Students had.
Bible Students, known since 1931 as Jehovah’s Witnesses, also expected that the year 1925 would see the fulfillment of marvelous Bible prophecies. They surmised that at that time the earthly resurrection would begin, bringing back faithful men of old, such as Abraham, David, and Daniel. More recently, many Witnesses conjectured that events associated with the beginning of Christ’s Millennial Reign might start to take place in 1975. Their anticipation was based on the understanding that the seventh millennium of human history would begin then.

You make my point for me. The Watchtower cult is a False Prophet.

I could not have said it better. They are of the same stripe as ALL false prophets and are endorsed by the same evil power. The same power that controls your mind and clouds your judgement.
Student wrote:
<quoted text>
These erroneous views did not mean that God’s promises were wrong,

No, and I never said that God's promise was wrong. The JW cult is a FULFILLMENT of one of those, rather dire, "promises". God know that evil will have its power on earth and that many, like the JWs, will be deceived by Satan.
Student wrote:
<quoted text>It is humans who are prone to error.

Then no group is more "human" than the Watchtower Cult.
Student wrote:
<quoted text>They will not allow false predictions to dull their senses and cause them to ignore the true warning of the world’s end.

Not only do we not know the day nor the hour, we do not know the century, millenium, eon nor even geological age. You can wait with baited breath for the next 2000 years or you can relax and search for the truth. The failed watchtower cult is not that truth. It is just another cult with its own collection of mythunderstandings and false teachings.

Student

Oregon City, OR

#34449 May 15, 2013
Dogen wrote:
<quoted text>
You are committing another criminal act. Do you not know the Watchtower has sued people for quoting their satanic literature without citing them as a source?
Do you know what a CPM is?
Do you know what Spam is?
I accuse you of being the former and doing the later.
Apparently you never read TO THE END OF my postings.

LOOK AT THE BOTTOM OF THIS POST # 34441
Trinity is OF PAGAN ORIGIN

Having seen that there is no Scriptural support for the teaching of the trinity but much Scriptural evidence contradicting it, obviously it is not of divine origin.

From where, then, did it originate? Note the following testimony:

“The recognition of a trinity was universal in all the ancient nations of the world.”—The Two Babylons, Hislop.

“The word triad, or trinity, was borrowed from the pagan schools of philosophy and introduced into the theology of Christians of the middle second century by Theophilus, Bishop of Antioch.”—Bibliotheque Ecclesiastique, Dupin.

“Trinity is a very marked feature in Hindooism, and is discernible in Persian, Egyptian, Roman, Japanese, Indian and the most ancient Grecian mythologies.”—Religious Dictionary, Abbott.

Yes, the trinity finds its origin in the pagan concept of a multiplicity, plurality or pantheon of gods. The law Jehovah God gave to the Jews stated diametrically the opposite:“Jehovah our God is one Jehovah.”—Deut. 6:4, AS.

Jehovah God says:“Come now, and let us reason together.”(Isa. 1:18) The advocates of the trinity admit that it is not subject to reason or logic, and so they resort to terming it a “mystery”.

But the Bible contains no divine mysteries. It contains “sacred secrets”. Every use of the words “mystery” and “mysteries” in the King James Version comes from the same Greek root word meaning “to shut the mouth”, that is, to keep secret. There is a vast difference between a secret and a mystery. A secret is merely that which has not been made known, but a mystery is that which cannot be understood.

The advocates of the trinity admit that they cannot understand it. In vain they try to do the impossible, to elucidate it by analogies which are not analogous in vital respects; a practice which convicts them of inconsistency and a lack of confidence in the merits of their position.

Jehovah God by his Word furnishes us with ample reasons and logical bases for all regarding which he expects us to exercise faith. Through the apostle Paul he counsels:“Make sure of all things; hold fast to what is right.”(1 Thess. 5:21, NW)

We can make sure of what is right only by a process of reasoning on God’s Word.

The fact that the teaching of the trinity is not mentioned, not discussed, not explained nor vindicated anywhere in the Scriptures when so many other main points of teaching are (and that in spite of the fact that it has been the most controversial teaching of so-called Christianity) is strong circumstantial evidence that neither Christ Jesus nor his apostles nor disciples, nor, for that matter, any of the prophets of old recognized or taught such a mysterious teaching.

God through his Word appeals to our reason. The trinity doctrine is a negation of both the Scriptures and reason. W53 1/1 The Scriptures, Reason and the Trinity pp. 21-24

“I am Sisyphus”

Since: Nov 07

Location hidden

#34450 May 15, 2013
Student wrote:
<quoted text>Apparently you never read TO THE END OF my postings.
LOOK AT THE BOTTOM OF THIS POST # 34441
Trinity is OF PAGAN ORIGIN
Having seen that there is no Scriptural support for the teaching of the trinity but much Scriptural evidence contradicting it, obviously it is not of divine origin.
From where, then, did it originate? Note the following testimony:
“The recognition of a trinity was universal in all the ancient nations of the world.”—The Two Babylons, Hislop.
“The word triad, or trinity, was borrowed from the pagan schools of philosophy and introduced into the theology of Christians of the middle second century by Theophilus, Bishop of Antioch.”—Bibliotheque Ecclesiastique, Dupin.
“Trinity is a very marked feature in Hindooism, and is discernible in Persian, Egyptian, Roman, Japanese, Indian and the most ancient Grecian mythologies.”—Religious Dictionary, Abbott.
Yes, the trinity finds its origin in the pagan concept of a multiplicity, plurality or pantheon of gods. The law Jehovah God gave to the Jews stated diametrically the opposite:“Jehovah our God is one Jehovah.”—Deut. 6:4, AS.
Jehovah God says:“Come now, and let us reason together.”(Isa. 1:18) The advocates of the trinity admit that it is not subject to reason or logic, and so they resort to terming it a “mystery”.
But the Bible contains no divine mysteries. It contains “sacred secrets”. Every use of the words “mystery” and “mysteries” in the King James Version comes from the same Greek root word meaning “to shut the mouth”, that is, to keep secret. There is a vast difference between a secret and a mystery. A secret is merely that which has not been made known, but a mystery is that which cannot be understood.
The advocates of the trinity admit that they cannot understand it. In vain they try to do the impossible, to elucidate it by analogies which are not analogous in vital respects; a practice which convicts them of inconsistency and a lack of confidence in the merits of their position.
Jehovah God by his Word furnishes us with ample reasons and logical bases for all regarding which he expects us to exercise faith. Through the apostle Paul he counsels:“Make sure of all things; hold fast to what is right.”(1 Thess. 5:21, NW)
We can make sure of what is right only by a process of reasoning on God’s Word.
The fact that the teaching of the trinity is not mentioned, not discussed, not explained nor vindicated anywhere in the Scriptures when so many other main points of teaching are (and that in spite of the fact that it has been the most controversial teaching of so-called Christianity) is strong circumstantial evidence that neither Christ Jesus nor his apostles nor disciples, nor, for that matter, any of the prophets of old recognized or taught such a mysterious teaching.
God through his Word appeals to our reason. The trinity doctrine is a negation of both the Scriptures and reason. W53 1/1 The Scriptures, Reason and the Trinity pp. 21-24

Apparently you do never COMPREHEND my postings.

Trinitarianism is a dead horse. We don't need a modern cult to tell educated people that.

FURTHERMORE: many other concepts (most that the JW cult accepts) are ALSO of PAGAN ORIGINS.

Maybe I am beating a brain dead horse.
Student

Oregon City, OR

#34451 May 15, 2013
Dogen wrote:
<quoted text>
Apparently you do never COMPREHEND my postings.
Trinitarianism is a dead horse. We don't need a modern cult to tell educated people that.
FURTHERMORE: many other concepts (most that the JW cult accepts) are ALSO of PAGAN ORIGINS.
Maybe I am beating a brain dead horse.
Are you serious? I answered your question from you’re post # 34445 about my post of 34441 and how you completely skip my answer with this garbage. Are you senile?

Since: Jul 10

Location hidden

#34452 May 15, 2013
Dogen wrote:
<quoted text>
<quoted text>
My analogy is not incorrect and you have failed to demonstrate your point. The scripture is completely lucid. There is no indication that Yahweh gave the command for health reasons.
==========
Musical Instruments were clearly used in OT time and there is no prohibition against them anywhere in the NT. That alone should be clear and convincing. However:
Psalm 33:2
Psalm 71:22 57:7-9; 81:1-2; 92:1-3; 108:1-3; 144:9
Psalm 6 (note the title)
1 Chronicles 15:14-28
2 Samuel 6:2-5
1 Chronicles 16:4-5
1 Chronicles 23:5
1 Chronicles 25:6
2 Chronicles 5:12-14
2 Chronicles 29:24-28
Nehemiah 12:35-36
Ezra 3:10
Nehemiah 12:27
******
Revelation 5:8-9, 14, Revelation 14:2-3, and Revelation 15:3
******
Musical instruments were not mentioned in the Law, but were clearly used and were pleasing to God.
NOR is there a prohibition from the earliest Christian writers. Prohibition against instruments did not appear till later. Late in the 2nd century is the earliest I know of (The Gnostic Clement of Alexandria in 185 a.d.).
http://www.tektonics.org/af/cocmusic.html
Early Christian painting showed instruments being used in worship.
http://www.amazon.com/Worship-Christian-Antiq...
http://archive.org/stream/bibliographyofmu00s...
Implied reference:
1 Corinthians 14:7
It is true that instrumental music died out after the destruction of the temple in 70 a.d. among both Christians and Jews.
Part of the reason may have been due to the cost of making, purchasing and maintaining such instruments.
Most early Christians were poor so instruments in services may simply not have been a luxury they could afford.
----------
__________
Bottom line.
1. History of using instruments.
2. No prohibition against using them in the NT
= no problem using them today.
What's the old testament laws got to do with the new testament laws? No where are musical instruments mentioned in the new testament and NEVER did they use them in worship. God tells us he commands singing, Ephesians 5;19, 19 singing psalms and hymns and spiritual songs among yourselves, and making music to the Lord in your hearts Colossians 3:16 16 Let the message about Christ, in all its richness, fill your lives. Teach and counsel each other with all the wisdom he gives. Sing psalms and hymns and spiritual songs to God with thankful hearts. Thats right they may have been a luxury and God knew how to make sure that in what ever they did they done without being a cost and never would have burden his people with such a cost when the spirit is what he wants to hear , not a clanging noise maker.

Since: Jul 10

Location hidden

#34453 May 15, 2013
Dogen wrote:
<quoted text>
Apparently you do never COMPREHEND my postings.
Trinitarianism is a dead horse. We don't need a modern cult to tell educated people that.
FURTHERMORE: many other concepts (most that the JW cult accepts) are ALSO of PAGAN ORIGINS.
Maybe I am beating a brain dead horse.
Care to tell us where you go to church, after all you know where we go, so tell us where you go.

Since: Jul 10

Location hidden

#34454 May 15, 2013
yon wrote:
They have no fear of Yahweh. They eat pork and keep the RCC sabbath.
They to are a false religion.

Since: Nov 08

Philadelphia, PA

#34455 May 15, 2013
yon wrote:
<quoted text>
What was the special way the Russell was used that had to be corrected by a drunken attorney?
Did not see this question until today? I am not sure exactly what means, however, not unless you are assuming that I am with the JWs, or that I believe that Rutherford corrected the teachings of Russell. Russell sought to keep everything in the light of the Bible; Rutherford led his group into the "organization" darkness. The central theme of Russell's teaching was the ransom for all; despite Rutherford's claims, the central theme of Rutherford's teaching was Rutherford's organization, which he styled, "Jehovah's visible organization".
Student

Oregon City, OR

#34457 May 16, 2013
yon wrote:
Russell was like the Martin Luther of his day. He corrected some things but held on to others promulgated by the RCC
May I asks what RCC stands for?

“I am Sisyphus”

Since: Nov 07

Location hidden

#34459 May 16, 2013
Student wrote:
<quoted text>
Are you serious? I answered your question from you’re post # 34445 about my post of 34441 and how you completely skip my answer with this garbage. Are you senile?

No, as per typical you avoided the issues and demonstrated you are unable to think.

All of what I posted are facts. Your cult acknowledges the ones they like and ignores the ones they don't like. They enjoy putting on the play of superiority. The cult does not like to acknowledge that there is not much unique to Christianity. All of the beliefs of Christianity are found in (prior existing) Judaism, Paganism or Buddhism.

Pick a concept you think (I know this is asking a lot) is unique to Christianity and I will show where it actually came from.

The point is (simply) that if you want to play the game of where Christian doctrine originated from then it is ALL fair game.

Virgin birth
Son of God
Raised from the dead.
Yadda yadda yadda.

Dogen wrote:
<quoted text>
Apparently you do never COMPREHEND my postings.
Trinitarianism is a dead horse. We don't need a modern cult to tell educated people that.
FURTHERMORE: many other concepts (most that the JW cult accepts) are ALSO of PAGAN ORIGINS.
Maybe I am beating a brain dead horse.

“I am Sisyphus”

Since: Nov 07

Location hidden

#34460 May 16, 2013
Working for the Lord wrote:
<quoted text> What's the old testament laws got to do with the new testament laws?

Musical instruments were NOT part of the OT LAWs.

[QUOTE who="Working for the Lord"]<quoted text> No where are musical instruments mentioned in the new testament and NEVER did they use them in worship.

So? Is the OT only valid to the extent that it is verified by the NT? 99% of the OT is not referenced in the NT so should we throw it out?

[QUOTE who="Working for the Lord"]<quoted text> God tells us he commands singing, Ephesians 5;19, 19 singing psalms and hymns and spiritual songs among yourselves, and making music to the Lord in your hearts Colossians 3:16 16

"music" implies instruments. "Singing" leaves the question of instrumentation open.

[QUOTE who="Working for the Lord"]<quoted text> Let the message about Christ, in all its richness, fill your lives. Teach and counsel each other with all the wisdom he gives. Sing psalms and hymns and spiritual songs to God with thankful hearts. Thats right they may have been a luxury and God knew how to make sure that in what ever they did they done without being a cost and never would have burden his people with such a cost when the spirit is what he wants to hear , not a clanging noise maker.

In the rest of this you don't really make any points. Psalms often had had instrumentation.

Remember the points I made:
1. Instruments were expensive.
2. Most early Christians were from the poorest classes.
3. There was a long tradition of instruments being used in the Temple.
4. Early Christian paintings show instruments being played.
5. God never forbade the use of instruments in worship services OR ANY OTHER TIME.

Also remember that I was also a member of the CoC and know what they believe. Also know that I left the CoC because of their incorrect beliefs.

One of my best friends (friends since the 5th grade) is a CoC minister and his position is that if the NT does not advocate it then it is playing it safe to leave it out. While I disagree with his position I respect it because he knows and admits that it is not a settled issue.

“I am Sisyphus”

Since: Nov 07

Location hidden

#34461 May 16, 2013
Working for the Lord wrote:
<quoted text> Care to tell us where you go to church, after all you know where we go, so tell us where you go.

Oh, I consider myself to be a Historical Christian. But I am a member of the Church of God (Anderson). I do not always fully agree with them but they are very tolerant of opposing views and are very based on Christian scholarship. My nephew (a member of the same church) is currently finishing his masters degree in theology and is choosing among PhD. schools. Like me he seems to enjoy "shocking" people as to what the bible really does and does not say and what the earliest Christians actually believed and practiced.

“I am Sisyphus”

Since: Nov 07

Location hidden

#34462 May 16, 2013
yon wrote:
Russell was like the Martin Luther of his day. He corrected some things but held on to others promulgated by the RCC

Do you know what Martin Luther actually believed? I think many Christians would be shocked at some of the things he said and believed. Not that he did not have a prominent place in the protestant reformation! Obviously he did.

Russell had some good insights, but as you indicate, he still clinged to incorrect doctrine and dogma.

“I am Sisyphus”

Since: Nov 07

Location hidden

#34463 May 16, 2013
Student wrote:
<quoted text>May I asks what RCC stands for?

Seriously?

Roman Catholic Church.

Actually it is good to see a Watchtower cult member asking questions. It indicates there may be hope for you.

Since: Jul 10

Location hidden

#34464 May 16, 2013
Dogen wrote:
<quoted text>
In the rest of this you don't really make any points. Psalms often had had instrumentation.
Remember the points I made:
1. Instruments were expensive.
2. Most early Christians were from the poorest classes.
3. There was a long tradition of instruments being used in the Temple.
4. Early Christian paintings show instruments being played.
5. God never forbade the use of instruments in worship services OR ANY OTHER TIME.
Also remember that I was also a member of the CoC and know what they believe. Also know that I left the CoC because of their incorrect beliefs.
One of my best friends (friends since the 5th grade) is a CoC minister and his position is that if the NT does not advocate it then it is playing it safe to leave it out. While I disagree with his position I respect it because he knows and admits that it is not a settled issue.
He doesn't advocate the use of instruments, he does command the use of singing, because he instructs us to sing.. Again the old testament has nothing to do with the new testament and psalms being in the old testament isn't authorization for the use of instruments. You actually answered your own question on why God wouldn't burden his people with the use of instruments then or now. Singing only is the absolute only way to be as spiritual as possible with God, as he is a spirit, and we are to.

Since: Jul 10

Location hidden

#34465 May 16, 2013
Dogen wrote:
<quoted text>
Oh, I consider myself to be a Historical Christian. But I am a member of the Church of God (Anderson). I do not always fully agree with them but they are very tolerant of opposing views and are very based on Christian scholarship. My nephew (a member of the same church) is currently finishing his masters degree in theology and is choosing among PhD. schools. Like me he seems to enjoy "shocking" people as to what the bible really does and does not say and what the earliest Christians actually believed and practiced.
My friend the Church of God is a false religion. The worship practices are not of the bible, along with many other false practices they have decided to use of their own desire, instead of what God commands. Degrees don't mean much when common sense isn't used. People study and receive degrees and still end up lost, as this shows me with you and your nephew. I do not say this to be rude, I say it to illustrate my point.

Since: Jul 10

Location hidden

#34466 May 16, 2013
Dogen wrote:
<quoted text>
Seriously?
Roman Catholic Church.
Actually it is good to see a Watchtower cult member asking questions. It indicates there may be hope for you.
Not knowing the abbreviation of RCC doesn't necessarily imply a lack of knowledge, because many abbreviations are used and can become a confusing maze, just saying.

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