created by: Travis Morgan | Oct 27, 2007

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Is homosexuality a sin?

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Albanian Guy

San Diego, CA

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#99779
May 8, 2014
 

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EdmondWA wrote:
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If that were true, then people would NEVER change. I've seen AMAZING progress in gay rights and acceptance of the gay community, ever since I came out in the late 80's/early 90's. People CAN change, if they put their minds toward bettering themselves. When people realize that they already know a gay person, and that we're not the monsters that we're made out to be by the religious mainstream, then they tend to soften their positions, and consider the possibility that they've been wrong all along.
You make "human nature" sound like an inevitability, as if people cannot examine their own values, and improve them wherever they find them to be lacking. But people do this every day. I don't know what the point of religion even IS, if it doesn't encourage this kind of personal betterment.
You sound like you'd PREFER to stay as you are, and blame your "human nature", rather than perform some difficult introspection that might help you rise above that nature, and lead you to new ways to perceive your fellow human. You sound as if you're making excuses for people to cling to their "human nature", even if that nature leads people to treat others with exclusion and scorn.
Yes, there will always be SOME people who will feel more comfortable treating gay people like pariahs (but whether or not this is due to "human nature" is debatable). There will always be xenophobic pockets of society. But I think that we all have a duty to say to ourselves "this is not a good way to behave, even if it is human nature" and to try and change that nature into something that is more all-encompassing of humanity.
What a breath of fresh air! Feel free to network with me online. Shared link above. Proud of you and who YOU are, inside and out (and several others I have seen here on the forum around the globe).
Toby

Portland, OR

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#99780
May 8, 2014
 

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KiMare wrote:
<quoted text>
By your reasoning, any condition a person is born with, is without fault. And the expression of that condition should be fully supported as it is.
For instance, a bi-sexual should be able to marry partners of both genders."

Bisexuals (can) marry a partner of either gender, however polygamous marriages are illegal in America and bisexuals can't marry two people at the same time. Saying the bible does not condemn or shun a person for their orientation, just their behavior, is saying your God provides homosexuals with their homosexual orientation, but then demands them to live in the closet.

Gender binary expectations is useless drivel when inadvertently admitting that God or nature creates homosexual orientation, a specific gender role for every person would be meaningless if in fact nature or a deity creates homosexual and bisexual orientations. Gender identity in a World where there is more than one sexual orientation is then a personal subjective experience and decision that is left up to each and every individual.

Your mistake is you strictly present a fundamentalist Western gender binary as the precedent for everyone else to follow, when in fact even in the West that is changing dramatically.

Since: Jun 12

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#99781
May 8, 2014
 

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Update. Sex Reassignment Surgery Prison inmate in Massachusetts.

http://news.msn.com/crime-justice/prison-offi...

“Busting Kimare's”

Since: Feb 13

Clitty

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#99782
May 8, 2014
 

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lightbeamrider wrote:
Update. Sex Reassignment Surgery Prison inmate in Massachusetts.
http://news.msn.com/crime-justice/prison-offi...
I'm sad to say that I'm sitting on the fence on this one. I feel as if I should have a position, one way, or the other.

“KiMare'a the Monster Mutation”

Since: Nov 10

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#99783
May 8, 2014
 

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EdmondWA wrote:
<quoted text>
I hope you don't expect me to believe that straight people who engage in premarital sex are subjected the exact same social stigma and mistreatment that gay people are. The Bible doesn't barbarically call for your BLOODY MURDER. Your filthy book of murder has no authority to restrict ANYONE, yet Christians behave as if they OWN marriage over everyone, and that they are somehow appointed as its gatekeepers.
<quoted text>
Good for it. It doesn't restrict anything for ME, because I'm not a Christian. Feel free to willingly submit to the ancient, immoral rules of primitives. I'm under no such obligation.
<quoted text>
Because we all know that demons will spout from the ground and chunks of sky will fall in flames if a man wears something with too many flowers on it, or if a woman wears pants.
Religion just cannot thrive unless it finds someone to stigmatize as an "outsider", can it?
<quoted text>
To "pursue" is one thing. To ENFORCE is quite another. When teenagers are being thrown out of their homes, by the parents who are supposed to love them, then your "pursuit of normalcy" has gone too far.
<quoted text>
Because there's no point in expecting (or forcing) gay people to "be normal". We are what we are. Pursue normalcy all you like, but don't expect it to magically change people from liking one gender to liking another. This has been shown to be harmful. If you're pursuing normalcy to the point that you're HARMING people, that's not normal. It's obsessively cruel.
<quoted text>
Insane, right?! Imagine, loving couples who want to be able to protect one another, and pool their assets and future lives, with the full force of the law. Abominable! Social anarchy!
But what was your excuse for DADT? There's always some excuse why gay people can't stand equally alongside their straight brethren.
<quoted text>
Better outlaw single parenting then, and step families, and adoption, and fostering, and childless couples. I don't know what you have against all these people.
Of course, I know you don't have ANYTHING against them. You're perfectly fine with people doing exactly what you claim to be against, as long as they're not gay people doing it.
Sure, tell me again how the Bible doesn't encourage shunning gay people. I love a good laugh in the morning.
Why are you shifting the subject?

You falsely asserted what the Bible said. I corrected it.

You want to claim equality to marriage. Ss couples don't qualify. They are inferior to that relationship and no law can change that.

Default family situations are always sad. That is hardly the same as a deliberate deprivation of a parent by a ss couple.

You use verbosity to cover your denial and deceit. It isn't working Eddy.

Smile.

“KiMare'a the Monster Mutation”

Since: Nov 10

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#99784
May 8, 2014
 

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KiMare wrote:
<quoted text>
And that's why Lot offered his daughters instead?
Really stupid...
DNF wrote:
<quoted text>Love your morality tale BTW.
So you admit the situation was about homosexuality and not hospitality.

“Unconvinced”

Since: Nov 09

Seattle, WA

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#99785
May 8, 2014
 

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KiMare wrote:
Why are you shifting the subject?
Please, help me get back on track by stating what you believe the specific is.
KiMare wrote:
You falsely asserted what the Bible said. I corrected it.
Which was what? If you'd refer more directly to what I said, I might know what you were talking about. How did I falsely assert what the Bible said? How did you correct it? Can't you be more specific when you mention these things? The only place that I can see where I've mentioned what the Bible says is how it calls for the brutal murder of gay people. You can't "correct" this, because it's 100% true.

I don't really care what the Bible has to say, except where it causes harm to innocent people.
KiMare wrote:
You want to claim equality to marriage. Ss couples don't qualify.
Oh, yes we do. Wherever the law says we do.
KiMare wrote:
They are inferior to that relationship and no law can change that.
Nope. The law defines marriage. Straight couples can't have marriage without the law. Everyone relies on the law. If the law had no influence on marriage, then straight people wouldn't bother with it. They'd just CALL themselves married and be content with their own public proclamation. But everyone who wants to be considered married MUST seek out the law's recognition. The law has the final word here. Not you, not the Bible, and not mysterious, invisible people who love us enough to burn us alive forever.
KiMare wrote:
Default family situations are always sad. That is hardly the same as a deliberate deprivation of a parent by a ss couple.
They're not "sad", your scorn of them is sad. Alternative family arrangements are wonderful, and should be celebrated. Your whole attitude of exclusion and superiority is sad.
KiMare wrote:
You use verbosity to cover your denial and deceit. It isn't working Eddy.
I use verbosity because I'm good at it. I use it to explain my position in depth, with detail and specifics. If you can't keep up, or if you refuse to be specific, that's not my problem.

You STILL haven't produced any URLs to support your "scientific" claims. I'm still waiting on that. Let's hear from all the scientific organizations that support you. Otherwise you're just the lone fringe voice. Cite your sources. Go ahead...

“Unconvinced”

Since: Nov 09

Seattle, WA

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#99786
May 8, 2014
 

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KiMare wrote:
So you admit the situation was about homosexuality and not hospitality.
It's not very hospitable to rape the newcomers in a town, regardless of their gender.

It certainly wasn't very righteous of Lot to offer up his daughters to rapists. This conflicts strongly with biblical claims that he was the only righteous man in town. Of course, it makes sense from a patriarchal viewpoint. The rape of men is unforgivable, while the rape of women is of little consequence. The message is clear. Men are inviolable, women are property.

Capping off the story, it's not very... realistic... that a woman would magically turn into a pillar of salt. Let's be grown-ups here, and recognize these fables for what they are. The salt content of the Dead Sea is very high. Column-shaped salt formations are common in the area. It's glaringly obvious that this is what's known as a "just so" story, a mythic "explanation" for a real-world phenomenon.

These vicious, unjust and unrealistic stories aren't even fit for children. Grown-ups with any sense should cringe when they hear them, and wonder what standards a God like this could really have for "righteousness". It's certainly not on display in THIS story.

“Busting Kimare's”

Since: Feb 13

Clitty

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#99787
May 8, 2014
 

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KiMare wrote:
<quoted text>

You want to claim equality to marriage. Ss couples don't qualify. They are inferior to that relationship ...
The general population has claimed marriage equality; you don't get to determine that.

All of your mental masturbation has failed to have any effect on anyone's marriage.

Since: Nov 12

Elk Grove, CA

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#99788
May 8, 2014
 
EdmondWA wrote:
<quoted text>
If that were true, then people would NEVER change..
I never said people can't change. I said from birth it's human nature for the 2 white babies to not play with the black baby. You can't freaking change Human Nature. Something that is odd or not natural in Human nature results in discrimination. It's Life, get used it. Now with that said, yes we can help people be tolerant of others.

Since: Nov 12

Elk Grove, CA

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#99789
May 8, 2014
 
Albanian Guy wrote:
<quoted text>
What a breath of fresh air! Feel free to network with me online. Shared link above. Proud of you and who YOU are, inside and out (and several others I have seen here on the forum around the globe).
I suggest we treat people the same whether they go front door or back. The claim is people are born gay, so are you proud of his parents for producing him? Because they were not gay.

“KiMare'a the Monster Mutation”

Since: Nov 10

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#99790
May 8, 2014
 

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EdmondWA wrote:
<quoted text>
It's not very hospitable to rape the newcomers in a town, regardless of their gender.
It certainly wasn't very righteous of Lot to offer up his daughters to rapists. This conflicts strongly with biblical claims that he was the only righteous man in town. Of course, it makes sense from a patriarchal viewpoint. The rape of men is unforgivable, while the rape of women is of little consequence. The message is clear. Men are inviolable, women are property.
Capping off the story, it's not very... realistic... that a woman would magically turn into a pillar of salt. Let's be grown-ups here, and recognize these fables for what they are. The salt content of the Dead Sea is very high. Column-shaped salt formations are common in the area. It's glaringly obvious that this is what's known as a "just so" story, a mythic "explanation" for a real-world phenomenon.
These vicious, unjust and unrealistic stories aren't even fit for children. Grown-ups with any sense should cringe when they hear them, and wonder what standards a God like this could really have for "righteousness". It's certainly not on display in THIS story.
I'm not here to debate faith with faithless people who have no interest in understanding or accurately recounting the incident.

I simply note that the expression of hospitality was a militant, abusive homosexuality in the incident.

It is highly ironic for a gay to abusively condemn Christians today who daily, in your community, are engaged in organized good works. Something far from the actions of organized homosexuals.

“Unconvinced”

Since: Nov 09

Seattle, WA

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#99791
May 8, 2014
 

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RiccardoFire wrote:
I never said people can't change. I said from birth it's human nature for the 2 white babies to not play with the black baby.
I don't see that anywhere. Discrimination has to be taught.
RiccardoFire wrote:
You can't freaking change Human Nature.
Yes, you can. It might take effort, and it might only be possible one person at a time, but it can be done. The last thing we should do is just resign ourselves to it.
RiccardoFire wrote:
Something that is odd or not natural in Human nature results in discrimination.
No, xenophobic thinking is what results in discrimination. Some people LOVE to see new, odd things in life. People only need to have their horizons broadened.
RiccardoFire wrote:
It's Life, get used it.
That sounds like such resignation. I have no intention of just letting people holding on to their misunderstandings about others, without giving them some insight.
RiccardoFire wrote:
Now with that said, yes we can help people be tolerant of others.
But how motivated are some people going to be toward that goal?

A fascinating new story has developed just today. A Republican lobbyist named Jack Burkman has sworn to organize a boycott against any NFL team which drafts openly-gay player Michael Sam. Burkman can't be alone in his efforts. I'm sure he's surrounded by many people who encourage and agree with him. He says himself that he is currently mobilizing "powerful grassroots organizations in 27 of the 50 states," as well as a "coalition of Evangelical Christian leaders from across the nation to take part in a protest if Sam is drafted."

Real tolerant. But, it gets better.

He also says "The NFL, like most of the rest of American business, is about to learn that when you trample the Christian community and Christian values there will be a terrible financial price to pay".

"Trample"???

Now, I know that not ALL Christians are like this. But those who are, receive their inspiration and motivation from the Bible. They may interpret it differently than you do, but I don't know who the authority is on "correct" interpretations.

This is NOT "human nature" motivating these people. It is not a "normal" reaction to something odd. It is a learned response built of nothing but hatred and xenophobia. It CAN be changed. It SHOULD be changed. It's certainly not something I intend to "get used to".

Since: Nov 12

Elk Grove, CA

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#99792
May 8, 2014
 
EdmondWA wrote:
<quoted text>
I don't see that anywhere. Discrimination has to be taught.
".
You are wrong: Even Babies Discriminate…http://fistfuloft alent.com/2009/09/the-great-di versity-scam-even-babies-discr iminate.html It's Natural.

Since: Aug 11

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#99793
May 8, 2014
 

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lightbeamrider wrote:
Update. Sex Reassignment Surgery Prison inmate in Massachusetts.
http://news.msn.com/crime-justice/prison-offi...
So where does this prisoner fit in the system?

Since: Aug 11

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#99794
May 8, 2014
 

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KiMare wrote:
<quoted text>
I'm not here to debate faith with faithless people who have no interest in understanding or accurately recounting the incident.
I simply note that the expression of hospitality was a militant, abusive homosexuality in the incident.
It is highly ironic for a gay to abusively condemn Christians today who daily, in your community, are engaged in organized good works. Something far from the actions of organized homosexuals.
No sex act ever took place so we can't really say that.

“Let the games begin. . .”

Since: Jun 13

Botany Bay

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#99798
May 8, 2014
 

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EdmondWA wrote:
<quoted text>
I hope you don't expect me to believe that straight people who engage in premarital sex are subjected the exact same social stigma and mistreatment that gay people are. The Bible doesn't barbarically call for your BLOODY MURDER. Your filthy book of murder has no authority to restrict ANYONE, yet Christians behave as if they OWN marriage over everyone, and that they are somehow appointed as its gatekeepers.
The Laws of Moses do actually. But who's going to enforce that one?!
EdmondWA wrote:
Because we all know that demons will spout from the ground and chunks of sky will fall in flames if a man wears something with too many flowers on it, or if a woman wears pants.
Religion just cannot thrive unless it finds someone to stigmatize as an "outsider", can it?.
Especially in Scotland. Men even wear SKIRTS there.

As for trousers, Arab and Indian women have worn them for centuries.
EdmondWA wrote:
To "pursue" is one thing. To ENFORCE is quite another. When teenagers are being thrown out of their homes, by the parents who are supposed to love them, then your "pursuit of normalcy" has gone too far.
Because there's no point in expecting (or forcing) gay people to "be normal". We are what we are. Pursue normalcy all you like, but don't expect it to magically change people from liking one gender to liking another. This has been shown to be harmful. If you're pursuing normalcy to the point that you're HARMING people, that's not normal. It's obsessively cruel.
All very true.
EdmondWA wrote:
Insane, right?! Imagine, loving couples who want to be able to protect one another, and pool their assets and future lives, with the full force of the law. Abominable! Social anarchy!
But what was your excuse for DADT? There's always some excuse why gay people can't stand equally alongside their straight brethren..
You're not the one who's insane.
EdmondWA wrote:
Better outlaw single parenting then, and step families, and adoption, and fostering, and childless couples. I don't know what you have against all these people.
Of course, I know you don't have ANYTHING against them. You're perfectly fine with people doing exactly what you claim to be against, as long as they're not gay people doing it.
Sure, tell me again how the Bible doesn't encourage shunning gay people. I love a good laugh in the morning.
All very true.

“Aaaaaaaaaaaaah”

Since: Aug 07

Piscataway

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#99799
May 8, 2014
 

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KiMare wrote:
<quoted text>
I'm not here to debate faith with faithless people who have no interest in understanding or accurately recounting the incident.
I simply note that the expression of hospitality was a militant, abusive homosexuality in the incident.
It is highly ironic for a gay to abusively condemn Christians today who daily, in your community, are engaged in organized good works. Something far from the actions of organized homosexuals.
Can you go to a faith-based English class? Homosexuals don't do good work? Take away the gay and all the arts goes away. Try to hire a decorator. How is a good Christian going to hire a rent boy without his wife knowing?

“Aaaaaaaaaaaaah”

Since: Aug 07

Piscataway

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#99800
May 8, 2014
 

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Man, the crazy Christians of atopic are attracted to homosexuals like a moth to a flame.
Toby

Portland, OR

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#99801
May 8, 2014
 

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What does that even mean, to debate faith with people who are not interested? Debate requires a provable premise, or at least a premise that can be tested, you can't really genuinely debate things like invisible entities, supposed deities, elves, leprechauns,etc., or what those mythical beings are reported to have written.

How can anyone legitimately debate something that requires no proof or evidence at all, in that case the one who is debating can just make up the rules of debate as he or she wishes? Anything based on an absence of evidence is not something debatable, you can choose to believe in something that can't be debated, that's everyones right, but it's more often than not just myth, I should say it's always myth. In SDT legitimizing myths provide people with the justification for different forms of discrimination.

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