“Ditat Deus”

Since: Jul 12

Location hidden

#3422 Jan 6, 2013
blacklagoon wrote:
<quoted text>You and I have gone round and round on this site for sometime now. Lots of insults hurled around, obvious frustrate on both of our parts. I do have a tendency to think to often in terms of absolutes. I really don't like dealing in absolutes, so I will give you this. I don't absolutely KNOW that God does not exist. He/she/it/ may very well exists somewhere at sometime. My position however is that until there is solid empirical evidence that such a being exists, I will continue to LACK a belief in such a being.
Having said that, I strongly believe that religion in general is dangerous. You have heard my reasoning many times, but I'll offer up these examples and see if we can't have a dialog. These are some of the reasons I believe religion to be a danger to our society.
1.) If organized Religion is anything it's divisive. It pigeon holes groups of people who hold opposing religious beliefs, and those who have no beliefs. It makes it almost impossible for people with different beliefs coexists in a meaningful manner. I can't possible be friends with someone that tells me that because I don't believe as they do, that I deserve to be tortured FOREVER.
2.) When you assume that Goddidit, then the search for the answer is over. Creationists turn their backs on well established scientific facts concerning evolution. "We, and everything living things were created by God." Which means look no further into the origin of our species, the journey is over before it begins. "I'm against religion because it teaches us to be content with not understanding the world around us."
Thats all I have for now!!!!
Wow. You CAN post a peaceful post.

You said "I don't absolutely KNOW that God does not exist." You aren't an atheist, you're agnostic. Maybe an agnostic atheist. It's good that you've opened up at least that much to admit there's a possibility of God - whether you believe it or not.

1. Organized religion is divisive by nature. There are many different religions that share different views & rules, even within Christianity. What we need to do is learn to get along with each other, regardless of what our personal views are.

2. I disagree. I think that when you believe "Goddidit", it leaves you wide open to search for the answer of HOW "Goddidit". There are many religious scientists that are on the same path to knowledge that non-religious scientists are.

“Ditat Deus”

Since: Jul 12

Location hidden

#3423 Jan 6, 2013
albtraum wrote:
<quoted text>
You never studied, did you?
No, never...

'_'
blacklagoon

Hyde Park, MA

#3424 Jan 6, 2013
RiversideRedneck wrote:
<quoted text>
Wow. You CAN post a peaceful post.
You said "I don't absolutely KNOW that God does not exist." You aren't an atheist, you're agnostic. Maybe an agnostic atheist. It's good that you've opened up at least that much to admit there's a possibility of God - whether you believe it or not.
1. Organized religion is divisive by nature. There are many different religions that share different views & rules, even within Christianity. What we need to do is learn to get along with each other, regardless of what our personal views are.
2. I disagree. I think that when you believe "Goddidit", it leaves you wide open to search for the answer of HOW "Goddidit". There are many religious scientists that are on the same path to knowledge that non-religious scientists are.
So you do agree that religion is divisive, good. And just who do you propose that "we all get alone with each other?" thats like asking for world peace. Mankind has been at war with each other since the dawn of time, I doubt we'll see world peace in our time. I also doubt that the divisiveness that religions cause will ever be conquered. It's easy to say, "lets learn to get along" but religious differences will always exist. The individual beliefs are too deep seated and dogmatic.

When you say Goddidit, there is no HOW Goddidit. The answer is most always through magic. Is there a detailed explanation as to how God created stars and planets? Is there an explanation as to how mankind has evolved? If you are aware of some other explanation beside God saying "Let there be light" and there was, then share it, please. If you have another explanation beside God breathing on some dirt and a man appeared, please, share it.

A good scientist can believe in God and still do his research, up to a point. As soon as he or she begins to insert God as the cause then his value as an objective scientist become worthless.

“Ditat Deus”

Since: Jul 12

Location hidden

#3425 Jan 7, 2013
blacklagoon wrote:
So you do agree that religion is divisive, good. And just who do you propose that "we all get alone with each other?" thats like asking for world peace. Mankind has been at war with each other since the dawn of time, I doubt we'll see world peace in our time. I also doubt that the divisiveness that religions cause will ever be conquered. It's easy to say, "lets learn to get along" but religious differences will always exist. The individual beliefs are too deep seated and dogmatic.
Peace starts right here, with you & I. Then we try to fan it out from there. It isn't hard to be peaceful, it's a matter of learning & using patience.
When you say Goddidit, there is no HOW Goddidit. The answer is most always through magic.
Why? Why do you think it always would have to revert to magic?
Is there a detailed explanation as to how God created stars and planets? Is there an explanation as to how mankind has evolved?
No. That's why I said its interesting to learn HOW God did it.

I don't know how He did. And I'm not smart enough to know. I rely on others to figure that out. So do you.
If you are aware of some other explanation beside God saying "Let there be light" and there was, then share it, please. If you have another explanation beside God breathing on some dirt and a man appeared, please, share it.
A good scientist can believe in God and still do his research, up to a point. As soon as he or she begins to insert God as the cause then his value as an objective scientist become worthless.
I disagree.

The question isn't hue did God breathe life into the first human, the question is why was it written as such? What does it mean?

What does "let there be light" mean and how did God make the first stars?

“Exercise Your Brain”

Since: Jun 07

Planet Earth

#3426 Jan 7, 2013
RiversideRedneck wrote:
<quoted text>
Peace starts right here, with you & I. Then we try to fan it out from there. It isn't hard to be peaceful, it's a matter of learning & using patience.
<quoted text>
Why? Why do you think it always would have to revert to magic?
<quoted text>
No. That's why I said its interesting to learn HOW God did it.
I don't know how He did. And I'm not smart enough to know. I rely on others to figure that out. So do you.
<quoted text>
I disagree.
The question isn't hue did God breathe life into the first human, the question is why was it written as such? What does it mean?
What does "let there be light" mean and how did God make the first stars?
Fan it out, yes. Ghandi is an excellent example, he succeeded in freeing India from British rule with peace.....a lot of people lost their lives to obtain this peace. Ghandi had the learning and patience to see it through....they shot him.

Yes, magic. The rest of you post is an example of that. You say that a deity breathed into an inanimate object and it came to life. You don't seem to be interested in how man came to be or how light and stars (like our own sun) came to be, is this part of Intelligent Design mode of thought or just acceptance of what the bible says? I'm not sure what you mean.

We all rely on those who are experts in their field, I tend to rely on those who can display the hows, whys and wherefores for all to see (empirical evidence) and let the talkers talk all they wish....the latter I don't take too seriously.

Can you explain?
blacklagoon

Hyde Park, MA

#3427 Jan 7, 2013
andet1987 wrote:
<quoted text>
what do you know about the Bible ? all you read is Playgirl Magazine.
http://www.popcrunch.com/wp-content/uploads/2...
I probably know more about your holy book than you. Did you know that the God inspired bible has a law that requires a rape victim to marry her rapists, never with the possibility of divorce? Nice law eh!!!
blacklagoon

Hyde Park, MA

#3428 Jan 7, 2013
RiversideRedneck wrote:
<quoted text>
It's you that's really this stupid and I'm getting tired of your arrogant stupidity.
What happens when a son is like his father?
Do you say "That boy is just like his dad."
OR
"That dad is just like his boy"
???
No, we say the father and son are alike. They SHARE the same attributes. You can't categorize them separately if they are both ALIKE.
blacklagoon

Hyde Park, MA

#3429 Jan 7, 2013
RiversideRedneck wrote:
<quoted text>
And think too fast.
Google science of prayer, or something to that effect, you'll get about 15 million hits....
And don't do the fundie thing of: "science proves prayer."
And don't do the athitard thing of "science disproves prayer."
If you want an honest answer, you ask an honest question.....
Yes, I did some research on the science of prayer and found nothing to support the fact that a god being answers prayers. I did find that prayer is very much akin to mediation and can be used for a calming effect and a positive attitude. So mediation has the exact same benefits as praying. One of the proponents for answered prayers is a bit biased. Tanya Marie Luhrmann is the author of a book called "When God Talks Back."

All indications are that the religious who believe in the power of prayer has actually trained their imaginations to accept a God on the other end of the prayer line. In her conversation with Michael Sherman, she readily admits that science is unable to effectively study the effects of prayer. Sherman comments that the scientific evidence simply does not support then efficacy of prayer.

So it seems that prayer is simply another way of producing a positive and comforting mindset much like various forms of meditation. Since there is absolutely no evidence that a divine agent is receiving our requests, why not skip the extra baggage and simply meditate.
crzzzd

Rochester, PA

#3430 Jan 7, 2013
youtube.com/watch...
win a few,lose a few God is Dead,,????

“Exercise Your Brain”

Since: Jun 07

Planet Earth

#3431 Jan 7, 2013
blacklagoon wrote:
<quoted text>Yes, I did some research on the science of prayer and found nothing to support the fact that a god being answers prayers. I did find that prayer is very much akin to mediation and can be used for a calming effect and a positive attitude. So mediation has the exact same benefits as praying. One of the proponents for answered prayers is a bit biased. Tanya Marie Luhrmann is the author of a book called "When God Talks Back."
All indications are that the religious who believe in the power of prayer has actually trained their imaginations to accept a God on the other end of the prayer line. In her conversation with Michael Sherman, she readily admits that science is unable to effectively study the effects of prayer. Sherman comments that the scientific evidence simply does not support then efficacy of prayer.
So it seems that prayer is simply another way of producing a positive and comforting mindset much like various forms of meditation. Since there is absolutely no evidence that a divine agent is receiving our requests, why not skip the extra baggage and simply meditate.
Don't forget the calming influence of music and touch therapy. Soft music, back rubs, light physical therapy which involves mild heat for muscles and joints, stretching and exercising limbs and joints to keep them from becoming stiff.

Or as Sam Harris put it:

"Get a billion Christians to pray for a single amputee. Get them to pray that God regrow that missing limb. This happens to salamanders every day, presumably without prayer; this is within the capacity of God. I find it interesting that people of faith only tend to pray for conditions that are self-limiting."
blacklagoon

Hyde Park, MA

#3432 Jan 7, 2013
RiversideRedneck wrote:
<quoted text>
Peace starts right here, with you & I. Then we try to fan it out from there. It isn't hard to be peaceful, it's a matter of learning & using patience.
<quoted text>
Why? Why do you think it always would have to revert to magic?
<quoted text>
No. That's why I said its interesting to learn HOW God did it.
I don't know how He did. And I'm not smart enough to know. I rely on others to figure that out. So do you.
<quoted text>
I disagree.
The question isn't hue did God breathe life into the first human, the question is why was it written as such? What does it mean?
What does "let there be light" mean and how did God make the first stars?
Why do I have to think it always has to revert to magic?

1.) Defying gravity and the viscosity or water by having a human walk on water....Magic?

2.) Changing the molecular structure of water by suddenly turning it into wine....Magic?

3.) Conceiving a child without insemination, or any other natural means.......Magic?

4.) People long dead, suddenly rising from their graves and walking around.....Magic?

5.) A person deceased for days suddenly wakening and floating into the sky and out into space....Magic?

6.) Instantly changing one loaf of bread and one fish into enough to feed hundreds.......Magic?

7.) Gathering animal species from both poles and Australia to put on an Ark, when people of that time had no idea such places existed, and if they had, would have had no way to travel to those destinations.....Magic?

8.) Stopping the sun in the sky, the ability to alter the gravitational forces on a cosmic level....Magic?

9.) Altering the molecular composition of the human body instantly, but turning a fully formed adult female into a pillar of salt.....Magic?

10.) Creating a fully formed and functional male by scooping up a handful of dirt and blowing on it......Magic?
blacklagoon

Hyde Park, MA

#3433 Jan 7, 2013
albtraum wrote:
<quoted text>
Don't forget the calming influence of music and touch therapy. Soft music, back rubs, light physical therapy which involves mild heat for muscles and joints, stretching and exercising limbs and joints to keep them from becoming stiff.
Or as Sam Harris put it:
"Get a billion Christians to pray for a single amputee. Get them to pray that God regrow that missing limb. This happens to salamanders every day, presumably without prayer; this is within the capacity of God. I find it interesting that people of faith only tend to pray for conditions that are self-limiting."
Yes, I teach a course in Music Therapy, so I am well aware of the power of music.

It would appear that God has more compassion for crustaceans and salamanders than for amputees. I've often wondered why God so hates amputees. He gives the powers of regeneration to other species but not to his most prized creations, why is that? Oh, yeah, Adam and Eve f--ked it up for all of us. Such a great lesson in morality, punish uncounted millions for thousands of years, for a finite crime, disobedience!!! Not murder, or child torture and rape, but disobedience!!! It's a totally insane belief, totally!!!!

“Ditat Deus”

Since: Jul 12

Location hidden

#3434 Jan 7, 2013
albtraum wrote:
<quoted text>
Fan it out, yes. Ghandi is an excellent example, he succeeded in freeing India from British rule with peace.....a lot of people lost their lives to obtain this peace. Ghandi had the learning and patience to see it through....they shot him.
Yes, magic. The rest of you post is an example of that. You say that a deity breathed into an inanimate object and it came to life. You don't seem to be interested in how man came to be or how light and stars (like our own sun) came to be, is this part of Intelligent Design mode of thought or just acceptance of what the bible says? I'm not sure what you mean.
We all rely on those who are experts in their field, I tend to rely on those who can display the hows, whys and wherefores for all to see (empirical evidence) and let the talkers talk all they wish....the latter I don't take too seriously.
Can you explain?
Pretty much I agree with you.

The one we we seem to differ on is this:

You say "I wanna know how men came to be."

I say: "I wanna know how God made men to come to be."

That's all. I want to know just as much as you do, we just see it in different ways. That HAS to be ok.

“Ditat Deus”

Since: Jul 12

Location hidden

#3435 Jan 7, 2013
blacklagoon wrote:
<quoted text>Yes, I did some research on the science of prayer and found nothing to support the fact that a god being answers prayers. I did find that prayer is very much akin to mediation and can be used for a calming effect and a positive attitude. So mediation has the exact same benefits as praying. One of the proponents for answered prayers is a bit biased. Tanya Marie Luhrmann is the author of a book called "When God Talks Back."
All indications are that the religious who believe in the power of prayer has actually trained their imaginations to accept a God on the other end of the prayer line. In her conversation with Michael Sherman, she readily admits that science is unable to effectively study the effects of prayer. Sherman comments that the scientific evidence simply does not support then efficacy of prayer.
So it seems that prayer is simply another way of producing a positive and comforting mindset much like various forms of meditation. Since there is absolutely no evidence that a divine agent is receiving our requests, why not skip the extra baggage and simply meditate.
Because prayer and mediation are quite different.

You should pay close attention when she said "science is unable to effectively study the effects of prayer". She's right.

“Ditat Deus”

Since: Jul 12

Location hidden

#3436 Jan 7, 2013
blacklagoon wrote:
<quoted text>Why do I have to think it always has to revert to magic?
1.) Defying gravity and the viscosity or water by having a human walk on water....Magic?
2.) Changing the molecular structure of water by suddenly turning it into wine....Magic?
3.) Conceiving a child without insemination, or any other natural means.......Magic?
4.) People long dead, suddenly rising from their graves and walking around.....Magic?
5.) A person deceased for days suddenly wakening and floating into the sky and out into space....Magic?
6.) Instantly changing one loaf of bread and one fish into enough to feed hundreds.......Magic?
7.) Gathering animal species from both poles and Australia to put on an Ark, when people of that time had no idea such places existed, and if they had, would have had no way to travel to those destinations.....Magic?
8.) Stopping the sun in the sky, the ability to alter the gravitational forces on a cosmic level....Magic?
9.) Altering the molecular composition of the human body instantly, but turning a fully formed adult female into a pillar of salt.....Magic?
10.) Creating a fully formed and functional male by scooping up a handful of dirt and blowing on it......Magic?
I guess that depends on your interpretation of magic....

I think you're humanizing God again, giving Him the human myth of "magic" because that's the only way you think it can happen.
blacklagoon

Hyde Park, MA

#3437 Jan 7, 2013
RiversideRedneck wrote:
<quoted text>
I guess that depends on your interpretation of magic....
I think you're humanizing God again, giving Him the human myth of "magic" because that's the only way you think it can happen.
I don 't think there are multiple definitions of magic, unless you have a definition other than...."the power of influencing the course of events by using mysterious or supernatural forces."

Most of us have only ONE frame of reference. We conduct our lives under these conditions. We don't make major decisions based on anything other than what we know to be real, or at least I would hope not. Your right, the only way I can think of those events happening is through, magic. I have no other frame of reference. I guess I could say that stopping the sun in the sky was somehow possible, but in reality that would be so far fetched as to be completely unreasonable. Even if I granted that nothing is impossible, I would have to turn to science and see if at this moment in time such a feat was possible. Science would tell me that it is quite impossible, at this moment in time, to alter gravity on a cosmological scale.

Either something is possible or real, or it isn't. Can you think of another methodology besides science were we can determine beyond doubt whether something is possible or real?

We are said to be created in the image and likeness of God. We are told he interacts with people on a daily basis. Many of his traits are defined by the 10 commandments and the bible, why would I NOT humanize him? Once again it is the ONLY frame of reference I have.

“Exercise Your Brain”

Since: Jun 07

Planet Earth

#3439 Jan 8, 2013
RiversideRedneck wrote:
<quoted text>
Pretty much I agree with you.
The one we we seem to differ on is this:
You say "I wanna know how men came to be."
I say: "I wanna know how God made men to come to be."
That's all. I want to know just as much as you do, we just see it in different ways. That HAS to be ok.
Well, I can live with that.

Do you agree that science tries to find the origins of man with/without supernatural help? Science does not push god out of the equasion, it merely searches for verifiable answers to questions.

Some Christians believe in Evolution, with the understanding that a god started the ball rolling, same with the Big Bang. As one teacher pointed out long ago, "The Bible says God created Adam and Eve, it doesn't say what they looked like."

As an atheist, I see no proof for a god....I don't believe. If proof comes along I'm willing to revise my opinion. That doesn't mean I'm agnostic, I don't believe there ever will be any proof. But then if the sun fails to appear tomorrow, I'll have to rethink that position too;0)

Can your mind be changed too?
Tony

Los Angeles, CA

#3440 Jan 8, 2013
Bible Verse Of The Day

Tuesday, January 8, 2013
__________

John 14:12-15

I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Son may bring glory to the Father. You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it.

"If you love me, you will obey what I command."

__________

God is always faithful. He is willing to give you what you need and bless you richly besides. But this is no something-for-nothing offer. The Lord demand righteous living from His followers. Those who live according to God's will can trust him for anything they ask in His son's name.

http://www.BarbaraLehrman.com

“Ditat Deus”

Since: Jul 12

Location hidden

#3442 Jan 9, 2013
blacklagoon wrote:
<quoted text>I don 't think there are multiple definitions of magic, unless you have a definition other than...."the power of influencing the course of events by using mysterious or supernatural forces."
Most of us have only ONE frame of reference. We conduct our lives under these conditions. We don't make major decisions based on anything other than what we know to be real, or at least I would hope not. Your right, the only way I can think of those events happening is through, magic. I have no other frame of reference. I guess I could say that stopping the sun in the sky was somehow possible, but in reality that would be so far fetched as to be completely unreasonable. Even if I granted that nothing is impossible, I would have to turn to science and see if at this moment in time such a feat was possible. Science would tell me that it is quite impossible, at this moment in time, to alter gravity on a cosmological scale.
Either something is possible or real, or it isn't. Can you think of another methodology besides science were we can determine beyond doubt whether something is possible or real?
We are said to be created in the image and likeness of God. We are told he interacts with people on a daily basis. Many of his traits are defined by the 10 commandments and the bible, why would I NOT humanize him? Once again it is the ONLY frame of reference I have.
Ok, so grant that nothing is impossible. You can then grant that God can do things we would consider impossible because science can't figure it out.

You used the sun stopping in the sky as an example. You then started looking for a scientific explanation to how that could naturally happen. If it did happen, it wasn't a natural occurrence so how could a natural study reveal anything?

“Ditat Deus”

Since: Jul 12

Location hidden

#3443 Jan 9, 2013
albtraum wrote:
<quoted text>
Well, I can live with that.
Do you agree that science tries to find the origins of man with/without supernatural help? Science does not push god out of the equasion, it merely searches for verifiable answers to questions.
Some Christians believe in Evolution, with the understanding that a god started the ball rolling, same with the Big Bang. As one teacher pointed out long ago, "The Bible says God created Adam and Eve, it doesn't say what they looked like."
As an atheist, I see no proof for a god....I don't believe. If proof comes along I'm willing to revise my opinion. That doesn't mean I'm agnostic, I don't believe there ever will be any proof. But then if the sun fails to appear tomorrow, I'll have to rethink that position too;0)
Can your mind be changed too?
I believe in creation through evolution.

I agree that the bible says God created Adam & Eve but it didn't say what they look like.

Perhaps Adam & Eve were simply the first Homo sapiens. Who's to say?

The bible is not a science book, not a biology book & not a history book. I think too many atheists complain that there's not enough info in the bible to seem it worthy or believable.

I believe that genesis roughly spells out what we now call evolution. If you cross reference them, you see the comparability of the two.

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