Gary

Buffalo, NY

#32875 Aug 10, 2013
Hi Saban:

I see that you had another question here when you said:

"I wonder why it doesn't say this was Jesus baptizing Peter?

When we look at the word [baptize] we can see the root word is to [wash] and this is what Jesus was doing to Peter. Many just look at the word [baptize] and they may think of either sprinkling or dunking one self into a pool of water. However, when we think of this word we want to be thinking [to wash] many times in the word you will here this word baptize and you will not see the word water mentioned anywhere this is a heads up to look at the context of the verse that it is spoken in as I said before this word baptism can have different meaning it can be to baptize one with literal water but it always means to [wash] it can mean to be baptized with the Holy Spirit, this is when the Lord cleans one by putting His Spirit within the one whom He saves this is the cleaning we all need this is the washing we all need. Thank you and can we take our next question please. Gary. 1 John 3:13-15
Saban fan wrote:
<quoted text>
So are you saying this is where Peter was saved?
I wonder why it doesn't say this was Jesus baptizing Peter. You said baptizing was washing. Again, your doctrine has confused me and has me seeing contradictions.
Saban fan

Decatur, AL

#32876 Aug 10, 2013
Gary wrote:
Hi Saban:
YES, I BE GLAD TO.
1- FIRST GOD MUST SAVE ONE BY HIS WORD FOR FAITH COMES BY HEARING NOT BY WATER DUNKING BUT BY HEARING AND HEARING BY THE WORD OF GOD, ROMANS 10:10
2- GOD MUST APPLY HIS WORD TO ONES HEART AND GIVE HIM A NEW SPIRIT THUS HE BECOMES BORN AGAIN WE SEE THIS IN, EZEK. 36:25-30, A VERY GOOD EXAMPLE THAT GOD MUST GIVE US A NEW HEART, HE MUST PUT A NEW SPIRIT WITHIN US, HE MUST TAKE AWAY THE STONY HEART AND GIVE US A HEART OF FLESH
"Then will I sprinkle CLEAN WATER upon you, and you shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, WILL I cleanse you. Anew heart also WILL I give you, and a new spirit WILL I put within you: and I WILL take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I WILL give you an heart of flesh. And I WILL put MY SPIRIT within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and you shall keep my judgments, and do them." Ezekiel 36:25-27
Question, Look at all the [I will] it is all from God alone. Who must clean us with clean water? yes, we see that God must do all this work this is why we see Jesus cleaning Peter if Jesus did not clean Peter he would not be clean Jesus said this will you believe by God's grace this truth?
This is how one is saved. Now there is the outward sign of water baptism that we do this is a sign it is not the substance this is a work that man does not God so we can know it has no saving power it is a sign as we read in Romans 6, this out-ward sign hopefully shows us what took place by God cleaning us with water of the word and the Spirit that we are buried with Christ.
Now the baptism one needs is not the literal water dunking mode but the baptism when God puts His Spirit within you as we just read in, Ezek. 36:25-27, this is the clean water that saves us. We can see the HUGE difference between the literal water and the Spirit in, Acts 1:5
"For John truly baptized WITH WATEWR, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days hense."
The water in John's baptism had no power to save and this to was a show a baptism of repentance also it was an out ward sign but God tells us in the Acts of the Apostles how we will truly must be saved by the baptism of the Holy Spirit this is why one must be saved by the word and the Spirit. This baptism is a must in order to be saved. Thank you for that question and can we take our next question please. Gary. 1 John 3:13-15.
<quoted text>
The question was:
So Gary, you were baptized the exact same way the Apostles were baptized. Explain the event for us!

You didn't answer the question.

Also, just to correct some of the things you've just said, I've never claimed "faith comes by baptism" so you've created a strawman there.

No matter what happened during the foot washing, baptism into Christ for remission of sins had not yet been introduced and the church did not yet exist. To continue to go back to those examples is similar to the Jews going back to The Law of Moses.

The "sign" you're discussing happens efficiently during the "one baptism". There's no such thing as two anymore unless man invents one.

Acts 1:5 was spoken to the Apostles and never repeated by the Apostles to people like you and me.

Baptism into Christ was for "remission of sins". Eunuch was most defonately baptized after Acts 2:38 was spoken and there can be no doubt it was in water.

Anyways, you didn't answer the question.
Saban fan

Decatur, AL

#32877 Aug 10, 2013
Gary,
Anyone ever tell you that you were a man of few words?

Didn't think so.
Saban fan

Decatur, AL

#32878 Aug 10, 2013
Gary wrote:
Dear all:
I would just like to take this time in discussing how one is to study the Bible the word of God.
You see many look at the Bible just like any other book they try to figure the word of God out on an intellectual reasoning they say, if it makes sense then seek no other sense. Why this is all nonsense.
1- First the Bible is a spiritual book and we must compare spiritual things with spiritual and in order to do this one must be born of the word and the Spirit, 1 Cor. 2:11-16, John 3:1-6, 4:23, 1 Peter 1:23.
Many of the religious people look at the Bible on just an intellectual way, for example I was given a very good question by a member of this site he said:
Can a baby repent?
Now on the out side when we try to reason this out in our own mind without the spirit of God and His word as the sole authority we will say, why no a baby cannot repent so babies are not accountable they all go to heaven. Now this sounds reasonable does it not?
However, our standard is not what we think it should be, the true believer's standard is always what does the word of God declare.
When we allow God to teach us to correct us, to instruct us, to reprove us as we see in, 2 Tim. 3:16, we can see God has something else to say about this point of babies.
Where they go off in deep error is trying to use just human reason this is why many of them will not be able to explain many verses that are not in line with what God is declaring so there will be conflict with the word of God. Many will not say this so they will slander the one who is sharing the word they do not know it is the word they have a problem with so a true believer should never get upset because they may slander you but we pray for them because for not the grace of God we all would be in the same boat.
Now getting back to the question,[ Can a baby repent?]
The Bible is very clear that a baby cannot repent any more than a grown up the fact is, and most churches miss this fact that is, God must grant one true repentance to even acknowledge the true gospel, 2 Tim.:25-26, if not they will be taken captive by Satan at his will.
"And Jesus answered and said unto them, This is THE WORK OF GOD that you believe on Him whom He hath sent" John 6:29
You see man thinks since babies cannot repent then they are under a different gospel they do not have to be born again of the word and the Spirit even though God tells us that we do there is no execptions for babies or anyone God saves by the hearing of the word when applied by the Holy Spirit. Now many hear the word of God but it is not applied by the Holy Spirit so it does not become real to them and they only live by their five senses this is why they will say, if it makes sense then seek no other sense.
Jesus said without a parable He speaks not unto them but in parables, Mark 4.
"But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost." 2 Cor. 4:3
The Scribes and Parisses of Jesus day had a zeal of God but the word says,it was not according to knowledge. God has to give them repentance to see and to understand this knowledge of the word of God by the word and the Spirit. Thank you. Gary
So your saying a baby is lost unless God repents them...? God decides to repent us or not? No choice of ours?? Hogwash.

Actually:
God commands ALL repent (Acts 17:30)
All must come to repentance (2 Pet. 3:9)
Repent or else perish (Luke 13: 3,5)
Repentance was preached to ALL (Luke 24:46-47)

By the definition of repentance, babies do not qualify----
A change of mind that results in a change of life (Matt. 21:28-29)
Turning to God (Acts 26:20; 9:35)
Turning and repenting (Luke 17:4)
Saban fan

Decatur, AL

#32879 Aug 10, 2013
Gary wrote:
Hi Saban:
I am sorry but I did answer your question just by the word of God. Now we can see below there is no verses to show us or to even prove your point your looking at all this by only human reasoning sad to say. Saban, the Bible is a spiritual book and the baptism that all of us MUST have is being baptized not with just literal water but with the Spirit of God, Acts 1:5, Saban, only the true worshipers will worship the Father in Spirit and in truth, John 4:23. However, one first must be born again of the word and the Spirit water does not save one. Only those worshipers who worship the Father in Spirit and in truth are His, John 4:23
THESE ARE THE ONES GOD SEEKS OUT HE HAS TO DO THE SEEKING AND THE SAVING.
Now for some reason you are so hooked on being saved by literal water Saban it will not wash away your sins and it will not save you Saban. You will not be able to see this wonderful truth unless God saves by His word and His Spirit alone if not the one will be taken captive by Satan at his will and the sad fact is, they will not even know this is taking place. I am sure that the unsaved religious Scribes and Parisses of Jesus day thought they were a [shoe into heaven] but they were the blind leaders of the blind. Saban, the exact same thing is taking place today in many of these churches they believe they are in the true church of Christ but when shown by the word what true salvation is, they begin to lash out and recoil back and snap at the one declaring the precious word of God they strike back like a poison snake sad to say and they will call you all kinds of name for Jesus sake they will call you from Satan like they did with Jesus they will call you a false prophet like they did with Jesus and so on. The sad fact is, if God does not open ones understanding that God alone must do all the washing and the cleaning from our sins only by His word and His Spirit this is just a fact that God must get all the glory great things He has done not great things WE have done.
So, I am truly sorry you did not like my biblical response to your question in that post to you but you did not show me where I am not sharing the word in a right manner comparing scripture with scripture and spiritual with spiritual. I hope you will go back to that post and see all those verses and look them up a good place that I started was in, Ezek. 36:25-30 in those verses we see God is saying many times [I WILL] it is all God's will to sprinkle one with clean water Saban, not our will. Thank you, and can we take our next question please. Gary. 1 John 3:13-15.
<quoted text>
Once again a long answer that answers none of the questions asked in the post you responded to.
Trying again:
Your asking for the next question when you just ignored three in that very post you just replied to.
Here it is again just in case you want to ignore the point being made in the chapter YOU wanted to discuss:
However, in this chapter "Jesus and his disciples went out into the Judean countryside, where he spent some time with them, and baptized. Now John also was baptizing at Aenon near Salim, because there was plenty of water, and people were coming and being baptized."
Why were they being baptized? What had Jesus just discussed with Nicodemus earlier? If being born again was not baptism and being born again was something different why would Jesus be baptizing in water later? If being born again was baptism and it didn't require water and Jesus was baptizing in water then Paul must have lied when he told the Ephesians there was ONE baptism.
Saban fan

Decatur, AL

#32880 Aug 10, 2013
Gary wrote:
Hi Saban:
I fully understand this really I do. Jesus gave us a wonderful spiritual picture in how He saves us in the washing of Peter's feet, Jesus told Peter if I do not wash you then you will not be clean. You see it was not Peter doing the cleaning and the washing was it? No! God is showing us that He must sprinkle clean water on us to save us this is not some literal water even though Jesus was showing it literally there is a spiritual picture behind it, this is spiritual in nature this is why many just look at the literal and when we do many times we miss the real meaning where the true nuggets of truth is because God hides many times His words read, 2 Cor. 4:3-4 and God tells us He hid His word to those that cannot see.
There are different types of baptism Saban I have shared this with you but for some reason your not seeing this there is a literal water baptism that is one and there is a spiritual baptism that we all must have in order to be saved and that is when Jesus saves one by His word and His Spirit this is called baptism by the Holy Spirit this is when God puts within one His Spirit this is why I quoted for you Ezek. 36:25-30 God has to put within the one whom He saves his Spirit within him to be saved. This is how salvation always took place by the work of God.
Saban, what many do today is put more trust in the shadow or the picture of what [water baptism] is to mean than what God must do to save one and that is, by His word and His Spirit your putting your trust more in the picture than in the real substance that is the washing of the water by the word and the Spirit. This is what Jesus meant when He told the women at the well that I will give you living water that you will never thirst again. Saban, you know this is not literal water even though it was in the context Jesus asking for literal water remember? Jesus turned the literal water into the real water we need this is what He is speaking of and it is spiritual this is why many cannot see nor understand these wonderful truth's because many times He spoke in parables and without a parable He spoke not to them, Mark 4. So, we have to look for the spiritual meaning this is why one must be saved by the word and the Spirit those are the only true worshipers, John 4;23. Thank you and can we take our next question please. Gary. 1 John 3;13-15.
<quoted text>
People that were baptized by the Holy Spirit could do miracles. Or, in the case of Cornelius it was to confirm something from God. In the case of Cornelius, it was to prove to all of the Apostles that Christianity was for the Gentiles too. Why can't you do miracles if you were baptized like they were?

Really, answer the question. And try to do so with simplicity. Why can't you perform instant miracles exactly like the ones that we can all absolutely confirm were baptized with the Holy Spirit could?

?
Saban fan

Decatur, AL

#32881 Aug 10, 2013
Gary wrote:
Hi Saban:
I see that you had another question here when you said:
"I wonder why it doesn't say this was Jesus baptizing Peter?
When we look at the word [baptize] we can see the root word is to [wash] and this is what Jesus was doing to Peter. Many just look at the word [baptize] and they may think of either sprinkling or dunking one self into a pool of water. However, when we think of this word we want to be thinking [to wash] many times in the word you will here this word baptize and you will not see the word water mentioned anywhere this is a heads up to look at the context of the verse that it is spoken in as I said before this word baptism can have different meaning it can be to baptize one with literal water but it always means to [wash] it can mean to be baptized with the Holy Spirit, this is when the Lord cleans one by putting His Spirit within the one whom He saves this is the cleaning we all need this is the washing we all need. Thank you and can we take our next question please. Gary. 1 John 3:13-15
<quoted text>
We all know what you would like for us to believe. However reality is as follows:

bap-tid'-zo
Definition
to immerse, to submerge (of vessels sunk)
to cleanse by dipping or submerging, to wash, to make clean with water, to wash one's self, bathe
to overwhelm
Not to be confused with 911, bapto. The clearest example that shows the meaning of baptizo is a text from the Greek poet and physicianNicander, who lived about 200 B.C. It is a recipe for making pickles and is helpful because it uses both words. Nicander says that inorder to make a pickle, the vegetable should first be 'dipped'(bapto) into boiling water and then 'baptised'(baptizo) in thevinegar solution. Both verbs concern the immersing of vegetables in asolution. But the first is temporary. The second, the act of baptizing the vegetable, produces a permanent change. When used in the New Testament, this word more often refers to ourunion and identification with Christ than to our water baptism. e.g.Mark 16:16.'He that believes and is baptised shall be saved'.Christ is saying that mere intellectual assent is not enough. Theremust be a union with him, a real change, like the vegetable to the pickle! Bible Study Magazine, James Montgomery Boice, May 1989.
Gary

Buffalo, NY

#32883 Aug 10, 2013
Hi Saban:

I am sorry but your hung up on the mode of baptism when literal water baptism does not save.

Now I am sure you must know by now many people were water baptized dunked, dipped sprinkled whatever, and there is no real change for many after awhile this is just a basic fact. I seen so many people water baptized yet I can see they were never baptized by the Hoy Spirit this is the baptism that we must have in order to be saved your trust is in an out ward work that you do and this is a sign not the substance and it is sad to see you do not see the spiritual difference here at this time your trust is in the sign and the mode of baptism by dunking in water.

I gave you verses in Ezek. 36:25-30, John 4, Acts 1, also where Jesus washed Peter feet, Peter was not cleaned until Jesus washed Peter, Peter could not make himself clean Jesus was giving us an example that He alone must wash us by the washing of the water by the word.

SABAN, THIS IS WHAT THE WORD [BAPTISM] MEANS [TO WASH] AND WE CAN SEE IN THESE VERSES AND MANY MORE THIS IS THE CASE.

NOW I HAVE ASKED YOU BEFORE IN PAST POSTS TO SHOW ME JUST FROM THE WORD WHERE I AM WRONG AND YET YOU OFFER NOT ONE VERSE SORRY TO SAY TO PROVE YOUR POINTS.

Saban, you do not see this now because we must be born again of the word and the Spirit, 1 Peter 1:23, John 3:1-6, Acts 1:5.

Since you believe literal water baptism saves then why all those who were baptized by water still live like the devil?

You see when one who is truly born of the word and the Spirit this is all the work of God you will see a HUGE change in that persons life because he is a new creation in Christ Jesus this is why the term [born again] is used he received a brand new spirit within him this all takes a work and miracle that one believes John 6:29. It is not the work of man least he should boast, Eph. 2:8-9.

Saban, maybe the reason why you do not use the word of God for your proof text is, because your trust is in what you have done. I am here to tell you without doubt by the words of God that I have shared here and many more in past posts you have the wrong gospel better to know this now then hear the words,[Depart from me you that work wickedness. Yes any work that we do even if it water baptism will not save you because it is a sign not the real substance this is why Jesus mentioned living water not literal water this is why Jesus said we are washed by the water of the word. We have to allow the rest of the Bible to give the word definition because the Bible is it's own dictionary. Saban, I am sorry but your comparing literal things by literal things here below. We must compare spiritual things with spiritual the Bible tells us in 1 Cor. 2:10-16, in order to do this you must be born of the word and the Spirit. God must do this work we can beg for His mercy who can tell maybe He will leave a blessing behind? Thank you and can we take our next question please. Gary
Saban fan wrote:
<quoted text>
We all know what you would like for us to believe. However reality is as follows:
bap-tid'-zo
Definition
to immerse, to submerge (of vessels sunk)
to cleanse by dipping or submerging, to wash, to make clean with water, to wash one's self, bathe
to overwhelm
Not to be confused with 911, bapto. The clearest example that shows the meaning of baptizo is a text from the Greek poet and physicianNicander, who lived about 200 B.C. It is a recipe for making pickles and is helpful because it uses both words. Nicander says that inorder to make a pickle, the vegetable should first be 'dipped'(bapto) into boiling water and then 'baptised'(baptizo) in thevinegar solution. Both verbs concern the immersing of vegetables in asolution. But the first is temporary. The second, the act of baptizing the vegetable, produces a permanent change.
Gary

Buffalo, NY

#32884 Aug 10, 2013
Hi Saban:

yes, this was the case that some were able to do these signs. However, when the Bible was finished around 95 to 97 AD all these signs were gone because the Bible was complete and God warns us not to add nor take away from the words in this book, Rev. 22:18-19. Now nothing changed when it came to salvation they were still saved by the word and the Spirit after these signs stopped we can know if anyone says I had a vision from God or a tongue, or God spoke to me or healing, and such all these are now finished because the Bible is complete we are not to add to his word and in all places where it speaks about signs and wonders today shows they are not from God but either from the mind of man or from Satan but they did not come from God, we see this in six different places in the word of God we see it in Matthew 24:24, we see Jesus saying an evil an adulterous generation seeks after a sign and the only sign I will give them is the sign of the prophet Jonah.

Saban, this sign of Jonah was a sign of the death buriel and resurrection of the Lord, this sign also has to do with the resurrection of the believers and salvation.

Being born of the word and the Spirit today has to do with just salvation by the work of God.

WE CAN REST ASSURED GOD GAVE US HIS WHOLE WORD IT IS NOW COMPLETE AND WE ARE NOT TO ADD TO HIS WORD Thank you and may we take our next question please. Gary. 1 John 3:13-15.
Saban fan wrote:
<quoted text>
People that were baptized by the Holy Spirit could do miracles. Or, in the case of Cornelius it was to confirm something from God. In the case of Cornelius, it was to prove to all of the Apostles that Christianity was for the Gentiles too. Why can't you do miracles if you were baptized like they were?
Really, answer the question. And try to do so with simplicity. Why can't you perform instant miracles exactly like the ones that we can all absolutely confirm were baptized with the Holy Spirit could?
?
Saban fan

Decatur, AL

#32886 Aug 11, 2013
Gary wrote:
Hi Saban:
I am sorry but your hung up on the mode of baptism when literal water baptism does not save.
Now I am sure you must know by now many people were water baptized dunked, dipped sprinkled whatever, and there is no real change for many after awhile this is just a basic fact. I seen so many people water baptized yet I can see they were never baptized by the Hoy Spirit this is the baptism that we must have in order to be saved your trust is in an out ward work that you do and this is a sign not the substance and it is sad to see you do not see the spiritual difference here at this time your trust is in the sign and the mode of baptism by dunking in water.
I gave you verses in Ezek. 36:25-30, John 4, Acts 1, also where Jesus washed Peter feet, Peter was not cleaned until Jesus washed Peter, Peter could not make himself clean Jesus was giving us an example that He alone must wash us by the washing of the water by the word.
SABAN, THIS IS WHAT THE WORD [BAPTISM] MEANS [TO WASH] AND WE CAN SEE IN THESE VERSES AND MANY MORE THIS IS THE CASE.
NOW I HAVE ASKED YOU BEFORE IN PAST POSTS TO SHOW ME JUST FROM THE WORD WHERE I AM WRONG AND YET YOU OFFER NOT ONE VERSE SORRY TO SAY TO PROVE YOUR POINTS.
Saban, you do not see this now because we must be born again of the word and the Spirit, 1 Peter 1:23, John 3:1-6, Acts 1:5.
Since you believe literal water baptism saves then why all those who were baptized by water still live like the devil?
Saban, maybe the reason why you do not use the word of God for your proof text is, because your trust is in what you have done. I am here to tell you without doubt by the words of God that I have shared here and many more in past posts you have the wrong gospel better to know this now then hear the words,[Depart from me you that work wickedness. Yes any work that we do even if it water baptism will not save you because it is a sign not the real substance this is why Jesus mentioned living water not literal water this is why Jesus said we are washed by the water of the word. We have to allow the rest of the Bible to give the word definition because the Bible is it's own dictionary. Saban, I am sorry but your comparing literal things by literal things here below. We must compare spiritual things with spiritual the Bible tells us in 1 Cor. 2:10-16, in order to do this you must be born of the word and the Spirit. God must do this work we can beg for His mercy who can tell maybe He will leave a blessing behind? Thank you and can we take our next question please. Gary
<quoted text>
Every place I show you an example of baptism you claim there was no water involved even though you cannot prove that. Even in the case with Philip and the Eunuch where there was much water, you ignore. I give you the proper definition of baptism (immersion) and you ignore it as if you'd never seen it and you tell me Jesus washed Peter's feet. He did wash Peter's feet. But where does it say this was Peter's baptism?

In one way you're correct, if done for the wrong reasons, baptism is just getting wet. The scriptures tell us what baptism into Christ is and what it's for in Acts 2:38. You cannot make it say something else. You are ignoring that scripture and the meaning of the word baptism. Peter tells them they must repent, but you falsely teach Jesus repents whom he predestined and we have nothing to do with it.

You are saying falsehoods in this post about me and you are a false teacher. Hopefully, since you do not approach the scriptures with a sincere heart seeking truth and since you have chosen not to recognize these basic facts and instead invent your own doctrine, others will recognize your teaching for what it is.
Saban fan

Decatur, AL

#32887 Aug 11, 2013
Gary wrote:
Hi Saban:
yes, this was the case that some were able to do these signs. However, when the Bible was finished around 95 to 97 AD all these signs were gone because the Bible was complete and God warns us not to add nor take away from the words in this book, Rev. 22:18-19. Now nothing changed when it came to salvation they were still saved by the word and the Spirit after these signs stopped we can know if anyone says I had a vision from God or a tongue, or God spoke to me or healing, and such all these are now finished because the Bible is complete we are not to add to his word and in all places where it speaks about signs and wonders today shows they are not from God but either from the mind of man or from Satan but they did not come from God, we see this in six different places in the word of God we see it in Matthew 24:24, we see Jesus saying an evil an adulterous generation seeks after a sign and the only sign I will give them is the sign of the prophet Jonah.
Saban, this sign of Jonah was a sign of the death buriel and resurrection of the Lord, this sign also has to do with the resurrection of the believers and salvation.
Being born of the word and the Spirit today has to do with just salvation by the work of God.
WE CAN REST ASSURED GOD GAVE US HIS WHOLE WORD IT IS NOW COMPLETE AND WE ARE NOT TO ADD TO HIS WORD Thank you and may we take our next question please. Gary. 1 John 3:13-15.
<quoted text>
At least you've chosen to learn something from our conversation. Glad I could point this out to you back when you were out of context saying we could only know in part.

You should change your handle to Apostle Gary, since you believe you received the baptism they received and since the words spoken just to them in Acts 1 you seem to think we're spoken to you. I'll stick with the baptism and church they taught no matter what Self appointed Apostle Gary teaches!
Saban fan

Decatur, AL

#32888 Aug 11, 2013
Gary,

If the Holy Spirit:
Works through the Word -(John 6:63)
Confirmed the Word -(Heb. 2:3-4)
Teaches with the Word -(1 Cor. 2:13)

And if the Word came by the Spirit (2 Pet. 1:20-21)

Please explain how you arrive at a belief where some children can be predestined "repentance" and "Holy Spirit baptism" because for me, using the Word as a guide, there's no way a child can understand these things from the Holy Spirit. Therefore as I've stated before, since according to Ezekiel 18:20 (below) a child cannot inherit Adam's sin, they are only an innocent creation born into a world full of sin, I believe they are covered in God's grace until such time they are knowledgeable of their sin and their need to repent.

The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon

But, your doctrine doesn't fit with these verses, Gary.
Gary

Buffalo, NY

#32889 Aug 11, 2013
Hi Saban:

Your question:

Anyone ever tell you that you were a man of a few words? Didn't think so.

Whenever someone asks me a question that relates to the word of God I would like to try to answer their question in a very serious manner because God's word is Holy. So, to be as faithful as possible I will try to answer their question with the word of God and this can take some time. Many people today just want a quick answer and that's it. Well, the Bible is not written like that it is a very complex book because it comes from the very image and mind of God Himself, 2 Cor. 4:3-5.

So Saban, if you like a quick answer when it comes to explaining God's word maybe you can get this in your church but when I teach and share God's word I like to go into some detail because we are dealing with the very word of God that became flesh and dwelt among us, John 1. Saban, people who know me personally know me as a silent man a thinker if you will at least this is what most say. Thank you and may we take our next question please. Gary. 1 John 3:13-15
Saban fan wrote:
Gary,
Anyone ever tell you that you were a man of few words?
Didn't think so.
Gary

Buffalo, NY

#32890 Aug 11, 2013
Hi Saban:

Your question:

"You arrive at a belief where some people can be predestined.

You go on about children and said,

"I believe they [the children] are covered by God's grace until such a time that they are knowledgeable towards their sin and their need to repent."

Saban, this may sound reasonable but is it biblical? Our guide is not what we think or believe but what does God say on the matter that is what counts Saban. Let us see what God says on this subject. Speaking here about the two twin sons Jacob and Esau before they were even born

"For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according TO ELECTION might stand, NOT OF WORKS, BUT OF HIM THAT CALLETH; It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. As it is written, Jacob have I LOVED, but Esau have I HATED. What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. For He saith to Moses, I WILL have mercy on whom I WILL have mercy, and I WILL have comapassion on whom I WILL have compassion. So it is NOT OF HIM THAT WILLETH, nor of him that runeth, but of God that sheweth mercy" Romans 9:11-16

"Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to Him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hast not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour and another unto dishounor? Romans 9:20-21.

Now Saban, this is God's assessment what He does and you do not like it. I did not say those words this did not come out of my mind in what I think or believe no way! This is what God is saying and the fact is, before a baby is born before they did anything evil God elects Jacob He loves him and rejects Esau. Now you may not like this truth but God said many times here [I WILL] have mercy on whom [I WILL] So it is NOT of him that can will himself to be saved by anything he does it is all in God's control, as the rich man and the beggar all that one can say is beg God to have mercy on us and if we are maybe because God maybe drawing one. However, many people want a do it your self have it your way self help gospel. However, this is not what the Almighty says and most hate this truth.

Saban, do you love those verses I have quoted? Do you believe God when He tells us He elects whom He will have mercy that the purpose of God according to ELECTION might stand not of works like water dunking will save you saban only the mercy of God period! This is from the very word of God those verses. Question, will you believe them? You cannot believe them fact! Unless God opens your understanding the reason being we will never seek God out on His terms never! God tells us right in His words read, Romans 3:10-12. Thank you. Gary
Saban fan wrote:
Gary,
If the Holy Spirit:
Works through the Word -(John 6:63)
Confirmed the Word -(Heb. 2:3-4)
Teaches with the Word -(1 Cor. 2:13)
And if the Word came by the Spirit (2 Pet. 1:20-21)
Please explain how you arrive at a belief where some children can be predestined "repentance" and "Holy Spirit baptism" because for me, using the Word as a guide, there's no way a child can understand these things from the Holy Spirit. Therefore as I've stated before, since according to Ezekiel 18:20 (below) a child cannot inherit Adam's sin, they are only an innocent creation born into a world full of sin, I believe they are covered in God's grace until such time they are knowledgeable of their sin and their need to repent.
The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon
But, your doctrine doesn't fit with these verses, Gary.
Gary

Buffalo, NY

#32891 Aug 11, 2013
Hi Saban:
You may think when God makes us to repent by the gift of repentance this is all [hogwash] according to your belief but is it [hogwash] when God tells us this truth your denying? Yes, God commands mankind to repent but most do not why? Because the Bible tells us that many are called but few are chosen. This is a biblical fact that many hear God commanding us to repent because in the beginning we came from Adam who was created in the image of God so God holds us accountable and He can give the command out to repent because God gave all mankind a conscience and we can harden this conscience as, 1 Tim. 4:1-3, declares this is why the Scribes and the Pharisses could not stone the woman taken in the very act of adultery because of their conscience the word declares. So God holds us responsible for our sin and He can command us to repent.
However, when God tells us that He alone must grant one repentance to acknowledge the truth Saban this is not [hogwash] as you claim your mocking God's word when you say this shame on you! Listen to the word of God if you can? I say this to you out of concern and to instruct you in meekness not to oppose the truth Saban.
"In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; IF GOD PERHAPS WILL GIVE THEM REPENTANCE TO THE ACKNOWLEDGING OF THE TRUTH." 2 Timothy 2:25
Saban, it is God alone that must give one true repentance to even acknowledge the truth of His salvation work. Now Saban if you still believe what God is saying here is just some [hogwash] this is what the next verse warns us if one refuses this truth.
"And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by Satan AT HIS WILL." Verse 26
You see Saban, Satan has many captive by his will and they are snared believing that they can repent when they want to repent, they can accept Jesus when they want to accept Him, they think that they can get saved by the mode of water dunking or make an alter call, or trust their church teaching and on and on. They have no clue that these dear souls are held captive by Satan at his will what greater delusion can one be under thinking they became saved by something that they have done as these things I mentioned.
However, God will get all the glory in His salvation work for all the glory must go to God for great things He has done not great things WE, I, ME, have done as many believe today sad to say they think that they have the power to come alive and be born again by their own power what delusion!
Now Saban, even after I quoted those verses I will say right now right here that you cannot receive them it is impossible unless it be given to you by God, God says this I don't.
"John answered and said, A man can RECEIVE NOTHING, except it be given to him from heaven." John 3:27
Saban, this is why I can say it is impossible for you to believe this truth unless God grants you repentance to acknowledge His truth that can set the captives free. saban, if they don't see it the word declares they will be held captive by Satan at his will. Many are snared by Satan's do it your self have it your way self help gospel built on the pride of man. Satan loves taken people snare like this because this is what made him fall his pride. Thank you. Gary
Saban fan wrote:
<quoted text>
So your saying a baby is lost unless God repents them...? God decides to repent us or not? No choice of ours?? Hogwash.
Actually:
God commands ALL repent (Acts 17:30)
All must come to repentance (2 Pet. 3:9)
Repent or else perish (Luke 13: 3,5)
Repentance was preached to ALL (Luke 24:46-47)
By the definition of repentance, babies do not qualify--
Turning and repenting (Luke 17:4)
Saban fan

Decatur, AL

#32892 Aug 11, 2013
Gary wrote:
Hi Saban:
Your question:
Anyone ever tell you that you were a man of a few words? Didn't think so.
Whenever someone asks me a question that relates to the word of God I would like to try to answer their question in a very serious manner because God's word is Holy. So, to be as faithful as possible I will try to answer their question with the word of God and this can take some time. Many people today just want a quick answer and that's it. Well, the Bible is not written like that it is a very complex book because it comes from the very image and mind of God Himself, 2 Cor. 4:3-5.
So Saban, if you like a quick answer when it comes to explaining God's word maybe you can get this in your church but when I teach and share God's word I like to go into some detail because we are dealing with the very word of God that became flesh and dwelt among us, John 1. Saban, people who know me personally know me as a silent man a thinker if you will at least this is what most say. Thank you and may we take our next question please. Gary. 1 John 3:13-15
<quoted text>
Next question? OK! Here's several:

You are comparing Jesus' washing of Peter's feet with Baptism over and over and over. In Luke 7:38 Jesus has his feet washed how do you compare this to John's baptism of Jesus?

Looking at Peter's foot washing by Jesus, didn't Peter at first refuse and have to give in or submit to Jesus' washing. In your view this would be a work by Peter since it is no different from my submitting to Jesus' command, correct?!

Didn't Jesus was Judas' feet too? Was Judas then washed in the Holy Spirit from this as you've alluded to with Peter? No way! The Holy Spirit Baptism wouldn't arrive until 50 or so days later.

Comparing that event with the baptism were required to submit to in Acts 2:38, wouldn't you have to say that Holy Spirit baptism came to them by their works? Didn't they have to stay and wait in Jerusalem for the arrival of the Holy Spirit. By your definition of my submitting to baptism being a work (going to the water and submitting) how would putting your life on hold for over a month and waiting not be considered a work?

Not that I'm saying it is a work, but I don't think YOU can have it both ways.
Saban fan

Decatur, AL

#32893 Aug 11, 2013
Gary wrote:
Hi Saban:
You may think when God makes us to repent by the gift of repentance this is all [hogwash] according to your belief but is it [hogwash] when God tells us this truth your denying? Yes, God commands mankind to repent but most do not why? Because the Bible tells us that many are called but few are chosen. This is a biblical fact that many hear God commanding us to repent because in the beginning we came from Adam who was created in the image of God so God holds us accountable and He can give the command out to repent because God gave all mankind a conscience and we can harden this conscience as, 1 Tim. 4:1-3, declares this is why the Scribes and the Pharisses could not stone the woman taken in the very act of adultery because of their conscience the word declares. So God holds us responsible for our sin and He can command us to repent.
However, when God tells us that He alone must grant one repentance to acknowledge the truth Saban this is not [hogwash] as you claim your mocking God's word when you say this shame on you! Listen to the word of God if you can? I say this to you out of concern and to instruct you in meekness not to oppose the truth Saban.
"In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; IF GOD PERHAPS WILL GIVE THEM REPENTANCE TO THE ACKNOWLEDGING OF THE TRUTH." 2 Timothy 2:25
Saban, it is God alone that must give one true repentance to even acknowledge the truth of His salvation work. Now Saban if you still believe what God is saying here is just some [hogwash] this is what the next verse warns us if one refuses this truth.
"And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by Satan AT HIS WILL." Verse 26
You see Saban, Satan has many captive by his will and they are snared believing that they can repent when they want to repent, they can accept Jesus when they want to accept Him, they think that they can get saved by the mode of water dunking or make an alter call, or trust their church teaching and on and on. They have no clue that these dear souls are held captive by Satan at his will what greater delusion can one be under thinking they became saved by something that they have done as these things I mentioned.
However, God will get all the glory in His salvation work for all the glory must go to God for great things He has done not great things WE, I, ME, have done as many believe today sad to say they think that they have the power to come alive and be born again by their own power what delusion!
Now Saban, even after I quoted those verses I will say right now right here that you cannot receive them it is impossible unless it be given to you by God, God says this I don't.
"John answered and said, A man can RECEIVE NOTHING, except it be given to him from heaven." John 3:27
Saban, this is why I can say it is impossible for you to believe this truth unless God grants you repentance to acknowledge His truth that can set the captives free. saban, if they don't see it the word declares they will be held captive by Satan at his will. Many are snared by Satan's do it your self have it your way self help gospel built on the pride of man. Satan loves taken people snare like this because this is what made him fall his pride. Thank you. Gary
<quoted text>
We don't have to repent of our fathers sins or of Adam's sin. We repent of OUR sin. This takes a knowledge of OUR sin and a knowledge of how it impacts our soul.

You've quoted lots of verses that you've used hundreds of times to try to state your case but you absolutely ignored the verses I presented to you in that post you just replied to.
Saban fan

Decatur, AL

#32894 Aug 11, 2013
Gary wrote:
Hi Saban:
Your question:
"You arrive at a belief where some people can be predestined.
You go on about children and said,
"I believe they [the children] are covered by God's grace until such a time that they are knowledgeable towards their sin and their need to repent."
Saban, this may sound reasonable but is it biblical? Our guide is not what we think or believe but what does God say on the matter that is what counts Saban. Let us see what God says on this subject. Speaking here about the two twin sons Jacob and Esau before they were even born
"For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according TO ELECTION might stand, NOT OF WORKS, BUT OF HIM THAT CALLETH; It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. As it is written, Jacob have I LOVED, but Esau have I HATED. What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. For He saith to Moses, I WILL have mercy on whom I WILL have mercy, and I WILL have comapassion on whom I WILL have compassion. So it is NOT OF HIM THAT WILLETH, nor of him that runeth, but of God that sheweth mercy" Romans 9:11-16
"Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to Him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hast not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour and another unto dishounor? Romans 9:20-21.
Now Saban, this is God's assessment what He does and you do not like it. I did not say those words this did not come out of my mind in what I think or believe no way! This is what God is saying and the fact is, before a baby is born before they did anything evil God elects Jacob He loves him and rejects Esau. Now you may not like this truth but God said many times here [I WILL] have mercy on whom [I WILL] So it is NOT of him that can will himself to be saved by anything he does it is all in God's control, as the rich man and the beggar all that one can say is beg God to have mercy on us and if we are maybe because God maybe drawing one. However, many people want a do it your self have it your way self help gospel. However, this is not what the Almighty says and most hate this truth.
Saban, do you love those verses I have quoted? Do you believe God when He tells us He elects whom He will have mercy that the purpose of God according to ELECTION might stand not of works like water dunking will save you saban only the mercy of God period! This is from the very word of God those verses. Question, will you believe them? You cannot believe them fact! Unless God opens your understanding the reason being we will never seek God out on His terms never! God tells us right in His words read, Romans 3:10-12. Thank you. Gary
<quoted text>
You used the same verses you found and twisted together hundreds of times and ignored these I've posted that cannot merge cohesively with your doctrine. You ignored them:

Gary,
If the Holy Spirit:
Works through the Word -(John 6:63)
Confirmed the Word -(Heb. 2:3-4)
Teaches with the Word -(1 Cor. 2:13)
And if the Word came by the Spirit (2 Pet. 1:20-21)
Please explain how you arrive at a belief where some children can be predestined "repentance" and "Holy Spirit baptism" because for me, using the Word as a guide, there's no way a child can understand these things from the Holy Spirit. Therefore as I've stated before, since according to Ezekiel 18:20 (below) a child cannot inherit Adam's sin, they are only an innocent creation born into a world full of sin, I believe they are covered in God's grace until such time they are knowledgeable of their sin and their need to repent.
The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon
But, your doctrine doesn't fit with these verses, Gary.
Saban fan

Decatur, AL

#32896 Aug 11, 2013
Gary,

You've drawn conclusions on verses that were never intended. You're out if context. Twisted. You ignore many of the points I make because you care more about adhering to YOUR doctrine than to truth.

You pay absolutely no attention to timing and the things that are changing and the audiences being spoken to. You have just pulled out the few things you can twist together to agree with what you think. You ignore the rest. And talk people into submission, rarely ever giving a straight answer to rather simple questions.
Saban fan

Decatur, AL

#32897 Aug 11, 2013
Gary wrote:
Hi Saban:
You may think when God makes us to repent by the gift of repentance this is all [hogwash] according to your belief but is it [hogwash] when God tells us this truth your denying? Yes, God commands mankind to repent but most do not why? Because the Bible tells us that many are called but few are chosen. This is a biblical fact that many hear God commanding us to repent because in the beginning we came from Adam who was created in the image of God so God holds us accountable and He can give the command out to repent because God gave all mankind a conscience and we can harden this conscience as, 1 Tim. 4:1-3, declares this is why the Scribes and the Pharisses could not stone the woman taken in the very act of adultery because of their conscience the word declares. So God holds us responsible for our sin and He can command us to repent.
However, when God tells us that He alone must grant one repentance to acknowledge the truth Saban this is not [hogwash] as you claim your mocking God's word when you say this shame on you! Listen to the word of God if you can? I say this to you out of concern and to instruct you in meekness not to oppose the truth Saban.
"In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; IF GOD PERHAPS WILL GIVE THEM REPENTANCE TO THE ACKNOWLEDGING OF THE TRUTH." 2 Timothy 2:25
Saban, it is God alone that must give one true repentance to even acknowledge the truth of His salvation work. Now Saban if you still believe what God is saying here is just some [hogwash] this is what the next verse warns us if one refuses this truth.
"And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by Satan AT HIS WILL." Verse 26
You see Saban, Satan has many captive by his will and they are snared believing that they can repent when they want to repent, they can accept Jesus when they want to accept Him, they think that they can get saved by the mode of water dunking or make an alter call, or trust their church teaching and on and on. They have no clue that these dear souls are held captive by Satan at his will what greater delusion can one be under thinking they became saved by something that they have done as these things I mentioned.
However, God will get all the glory in His salvation work for all the glory must go to God for great things He has done not great things WE, I, ME, have done as many believe today sad to say they think that they have the power to come alive and be born again by their own power what delusion!
Now Saban, even after I quoted those verses I will say right now right here that you cannot receive them it is impossible unless it be given to you by God, God says this I don't.
"John answered and said, A man can RECEIVE NOTHING, except it be given to him from heaven." John 3:27
Saban, this is why I can say it is impossible for you to believe this truth unless God grants you repentance to acknowledge His truth that can set the captives free. saban, if they don't see it the word declares they will be held captive by Satan at his will. Many are snared by Satan's do it your self have it your way self help gospel built on the pride of man. Satan loves taken people snare like this because this is what made him fall his pride. Thank you. Gary
<quoted text>
You keep using the term "water dunking". Where do you find this in the scriptures?

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