What Your Church Won't Tell You by Da...
Saban fan

Springfield, NJ

#32204 Jul 23, 2013
WasteWater wrote:
<quoted text>
Shortly after Jesus died, many sects and cults started to form. If Jesus is the physical manifestation of God, he would expect this to happen. Am I correct?
I suppose so. His word warns us of false teachings. The only way to determine false teaching is to measure it by the Word.
bmz

Since: Mar 08

Location hidden

#32205 Jul 23, 2013
WasteWater wrote:
<quoted text>
Do you mean "The Church" as in the "Roman Church?" There was a great schism right from the start. The Roman Church was the western and the Orthodox was the eastern.

I doubt Paul thought he was writing the Bible. Paul's letters are his thoughts and "the word of Paul."

Who knows what Jesus actually said? He was speaking in another language. Any Bible is simply an approximation.
Yes, that is what I meant. In fact, both Churches came long after Jesus was gone.

I we read Acts, we can see that the disciples worshipped and prayed to the LORD at the Temple. Also, Jesus had not appointed any Bishops.

Yes, Paul's letters are his own thoughts and were addressed to various folks. The problem is that Jesus did not get his folks to write down and neither did he have any scribes among his followers, who could write down what he said.

What we have are four gospels and the three writers of the synoptic gospels knew nothing about John.

If John were really a true disciple of Jesus, his gospel should have come first. Anyway, since there was no gospel, Paul capitalized on the vacuum left by Jesus and his disciples and preached whatever he could think of.

If Paul had remained in Judea and had not gone West or North West, it would have been a different story.
bmz

Since: Mar 08

Location hidden

#32206 Jul 23, 2013
WasteWater wrote:
<quoted text>
The Roman Church brought us the Bible in the 5th century.
That is correct!

Since: Aug 11

Location hidden

#32207 Jul 23, 2013
bmz wrote:
<quoted text>
Yes, that is what I meant. In fact, both Churches came long after Jesus was gone.
I we read Acts, we can see that the disciples worshipped and prayed to the LORD at the Temple. Also, Jesus had not appointed any Bishops.
Yes, Paul's letters are his own thoughts and were addressed to various folks. The problem is that Jesus did not get his folks to write down and neither did he have any scribes among his followers, who could write down what he said.
What we have are four gospels and the three writers of the synoptic gospels knew nothing about John.
If John were really a true disciple of Jesus, his gospel should have come first. Anyway, since there was no gospel, Paul capitalized on the vacuum left by Jesus and his disciples and preached whatever he could think of.
If Paul had remained in Judea and had not gone West or North West, it would have been a different story.
I agree. The whole "church" thing is sketchy. Jesus was preaching the oral tradition. It seems he did no like the written word very much which is why he singled out the scribes. John is a teaching Gospel written as a chiasm.

http://hermeneutics.stackexchange.com/questio...

http://village.hcc-nd.edu/hodonnell/JohnBTB.h...

Since: Aug 11

Location hidden

#32208 Jul 23, 2013
Saban fan wrote:
<quoted text>
I suppose so. His word warns us of false teachings. The only way to determine false teaching is to measure it by the Word.
Not really. You can measure it better by the spirit.

Paul actually describes it as follows:

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.

Since: Aug 11

Location hidden

#32209 Jul 23, 2013
Saban fan wrote:
<quoted text>
I suppose so. His word warns us of false teachings. The only way to determine false teaching is to measure it by the Word.
How can we trust translations and misinterpretations?
bmz

Since: Mar 08

Location hidden

#32210 Jul 23, 2013
WasteWater wrote:
<quoted text>
I agree. The whole "church" thing is sketchy. Jesus was preaching the oral tradition. It seems he did no like the written word very much which is why he singled out the scribes. John is a teaching Gospel written as a chiasm.
http://hermeneutics.stackexchange.com/questio...
http://village.hcc-nd.edu/hodonnell/JohnBTB.h...
Thank you.

You wrote: "Jesus was preaching the oral tradition."

Exactly! However, there was a difference between his oral teachings compared with those of the Pharisees and the Sadducees, who had made the religion of God, a burden for people, while they lorded over them.

if you ask any polemic Christian, "Why was Jesus sent by God?"

The answer will be: "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."

That was not the reason.Jesus was sent only for one reason and that was to make the religion bearable for people. Traditions were forced upon the people to follow, instead of following God's laws.

Here is something remarkable and extremely striking from Jesus, which many ignorant Christians have never read and neither have they understood, when he said to the Pharisees:

"You have let go of the commands of God and are holding on to human traditions.”

“You have a fine way of setting aside the commands of God in order to observe your own traditions!

For Moses said,‘Honor your father and mother,’ and,‘Anyone who curses their father or mother is to be put to death.’

But you say that if anyone declares that what might have been used to help their father or mother is Corban (that is, devoted to God)— then you no longer let them do anything for their father or mother.

13 Thus you nullify the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down. And you do many things like that.”"

John's gospel is the most heavily forged gospel and even the Christian scholars agree that it has been written by many Johns.

Gary

Buffalo, NY

#32211 Jul 23, 2013
Hi Saban:

I am sorry that your upset. However, I do see that the truth hurts when shown from the word and when one is not ready to deal with just the truth of the word of God.

You said:

Faith does NOT come by hearing and hearing by the word of God."

I said and quoted just from the word.

"So then faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God. Romans 10:17

Saban, now these are not my words they are God's words you have to deal with it is not me your upset with but with the word of God.

Saban, your trust is in a literal building and denomination this is why you cannot veer away from anything you have been taught. However, those that truly worship the Lord you hear no mention of any church building or denomination because they worship the Father in Spirit and in truth those are the true worshippers of God Saban and there is no mention at all of some literal building or denomination, listen again in what Jesus words are saying are you going to say this is not true also?

"But the hour cometh, and now is, when the TRUE WORSHIPPEWRS shall worship the Father in SPIRIT and in TRUTH: For the Father seeketh such to worship Him." John 4:23

Saban where is there any mention of a denomination or building or church?

Saban, you see the ones that truly HATE THE TRUTH ARE THE UNSAVED RELIGIOUS ONES THESE ARE THE PEOPLE IN THESE WONDERFUL LOOKING TEMPLES THEY KILLED THE WORD OF LIFE JESUS Christ BECAUSE THEY ALSO THOUGHT THAT THEY HAD THE TRUTH ALSO BUT WHEN EXPOSED BY JESUS THEY HATED HIM THEY SAID THEY LOVE GOD THIS IS FOR SURE IN THEIR MOUTH THEY SAID THIS BUT THEIR HEARTS WRERE FAR FROM HIM TO THE POINT THE KILLED HIM.

Saban, you should carefully read what I have said and go back to my last post and you will see you said: Faith does NOT come by hearing and hearing by the word of God.

I did not put those words in your mouth Saban you did when you wrote this. Now will you also deny John 4:23 when referring to the true worshippers? Please don't get up set I say this out of love and from the word of truth to you Saban and the fact is, faith must come from the fruit of the Spirit of God Himself this is one of the fruits of the Spirit [faith] read, Gal. 5:22-23. Faith does not come from the power of man when they do this or that.

Tell me what do YOU have to do when you get water baptized? Thank you. Gary
Saban fan wrote:
<quoted text>
Before I finish reading this I have to stop at your #1 which is a COMPLETELY FALSE statement you've made about what I've said. Be honest in this. Don't place words in my mouth and then refute them. I'm not your strawman.

“What are you looking at?”

Since: Jan 08

Albuquerque, NM

#32212 Jul 23, 2013
[QUOTE who="GarySaban, you see the ones that truly HATE THE TRUTH ARE THE UNSAVED RELIGIOUS ONES THESE ARE THE PEOPLE IN THESE WONDERFUL LOOKING TEMPLES THEY KILLED THE WORD OF LIFE JESUS Christ BECAUSE THEY ALSO THOUGHT THAT THEY HAD THE TRUTH ALSO BUT WHEN EXPOSED BY JESUS THEY HATED HIM THEY SAID THEY LOVE GOD THIS IS FOR SURE IN THEIR MOUTH THEY SAID THIS BUT THEIR HEARTS WRERE FAR FROM HIM TO THE POINT THE KILLED HIM.
<quoted text>[/QUOTE]

Would you call this logic? I wouldn't.

Gary, you admonish those that "KILLED THE WORD OF LIFE JESUS Christ BECAUSE THEY ALSO THOUGHT THAT THEY HAD THE TRUTH", but yet you don't beleive in Jesus completely.

You admonish those who gave you what you believe in.

Really.

maybe you should start believing in what Jesus taught instead of men.

*sighs*
Saban fan

Springfield, NJ

#32213 Jul 23, 2013
WasteWater wrote:
<quoted text>
The Roman Church brought us the Bible in the 5th century. The Kingdom of God is not a physical church.
It's a spiritual church made up of Christians that met every first day of the week to worship and partake of the Lord's Supper.
Saban fan

Springfield, NJ

#32214 Jul 23, 2013
WasteWater wrote:
<quoted text>
How can we trust translations and misinterpretations?
Comparison of the translations to the earliest manuscripts. Some are better than others. The ASV is a good and accurate translation.

Since: Aug 11

Location hidden

#32215 Jul 23, 2013
bmz wrote:
<quoted text>
Thank you.
You wrote: "Jesus was preaching the oral tradition."
Exactly! However, there was a difference between his oral teachings compared with those of the Pharisees and the Sadducees, who had made the religion of God, a burden for people, while they lorded over them.
if you ask any polemic Christian, "Why was Jesus sent by God?"
The answer will be: "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."
That was not the reason.Jesus was sent only for one reason and that was to make the religion bearable for people. Traditions were forced upon the people to follow, instead of following God's laws.
Here is something remarkable and extremely striking from Jesus, which many ignorant Christians have never read and neither have they understood, when he said to the Pharisees:
"You have let go of the commands of God and are holding on to human traditions.”
“You have a fine way of setting aside the commands of God in order to observe your own traditions!
For Moses said,‘Honor your father and mother,’ and,‘Anyone who curses their father or mother is to be put to death.’
But you say that if anyone declares that what might have been used to help their father or mother is Corban (that is, devoted to God)— then you no longer let them do anything for their father or mother.
13 Thus you nullify the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down. And you do many things like that.”"
John's gospel is the most heavily forged gospel and even the Christian scholars agree that it has been written by many Johns.
BMZ: Exactly! However, there was a difference between his oral teachings compared with those of the Pharisees and the Sadducees, who had made the religion of God, a burden for people, while they lorded over them.

WW: That's what I get by reading the synoptic gospels also. If, according to Matthew, the Law was not changed, then the only Law would have to be The Ten Commandments. People who talk about a new covenant refuse to accept what is actually written in the Bible.
Saban fan

Springfield, NJ

#32216 Jul 23, 2013
Gary wrote:
Hi Saban:
I am sorry that your upset. However, I do see that the truth hurts when shown from the word and when one is not ready to deal with just the truth of the word of God.
You said:
Faith does NOT come by hearing and hearing by the word of God."
I said and quoted just from the word.
"So then faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God. Romans 10:17
Saban, now these are not my words they are God's words you have to deal with it is not me your upset with but with the word of God.
Saban, your trust is in a literal building and denomination this is why you cannot veer away from anything you have been taught. However, those that truly worship the Lord you hear no mention of any church building or denomination because they worship the Father in Spirit and in truth those are the true worshippers of God Saban and there is no mention at all of some literal building or denomination, listen again in what Jesus words are saying are you going to say this is not true also?
"But the hour cometh, and now is, when the TRUE WORSHIPPEWRS shall worship the Father in SPIRIT and in TRUTH: For the Father seeketh such to worship Him." John 4:23
Saban where is there any mention of a denomination or building or church?
Saban, you see the ones that truly HATE THE TRUTH ARE THE UNSAVED RELIGIOUS ONES THESE ARE THE PEOPLE IN THESE WONDERFUL LOOKING TEMPLES THEY KILLED THE WORD OF LIFE JESUS Christ BECAUSE THEY ALSO THOUGHT THAT THEY HAD THE TRUTH ALSO BUT WHEN EXPOSED BY JESUS THEY HATED HIM THEY SAID THEY LOVE GOD THIS IS FOR SURE IN THEIR MOUTH THEY SAID THIS BUT THEIR HEARTS WRERE FAR FROM HIM TO THE POINT THE KILLED HIM.
Saban, you should carefully read what I have said and go back to my last post and you will see you said: Faith does NOT come by hearing and hearing by the word of God.
I did not put those words in your mouth Saban you did when you wrote this. Now will you also deny John 4:23 when referring to the true worshippers? Please don't get up set I say this out of love and from the word of truth to you Saban and the fact is, faith must come from the fruit of the Spirit of God Himself this is one of the fruits of the Spirit [faith] read, Gal. 5:22-23. Faith does not come from the power of man when they do this or that.
Tell me what do YOU have to do when you get water baptized? Thank you. Gary
<quoted text>
I do not believe I said "faith does NOT come by hearing". If I did I'd appreciate you pointing out the post number.

If I said that it was completely by mistake and I think my previous post would confirm this.

When I was baptized I didn't have to do anything but get in the water. Just like the Eunuch.

Since you seem to have the market on truth, which baptism in scripture was similar to the one you experienced?

Since: Aug 11

Location hidden

#32217 Jul 23, 2013
Saban fan wrote:
<quoted text>
Comparison of the translations to the earliest manuscripts. Some are better than others. The ASV is a good and accurate translation.
I don't know if any translation is accurate. Jesus spoke Aramaic. What is written is all hear-say is it not? I prefer the ASV over the silly King James revised which is simply a knock-off of RSV 1952. I object too the pretense there. There is only one King James Bible and that is the one written in Jacobean English.

Since: Aug 11

Location hidden

#32218 Jul 23, 2013
Saban fan wrote:
<quoted text>
It's a spiritual church made up of Christians that met every first day of the week to worship and partake of the Lord's Supper.
I agree.

Since: Aug 11

Location hidden

#32219 Jul 23, 2013
Saban fan wrote:
<quoted text>
I do not believe I said "faith does NOT come by hearing". If I did I'd appreciate you pointing out the post number.
If I said that it was completely by mistake and I think my previous post would confirm this.
When I was baptized I didn't have to do anything but get in the water. Just like the Eunuch.
Since you seem to have the market on truth, which baptism in scripture was similar to the one you experienced?
I believe those who claim to know the truth do not actually know what truth is. All of this is a great spiritual mystery. Each of us has our own path. The truth can only be revealed through the Holy Spirit.

Since: Aug 11

Location hidden

#32220 Jul 23, 2013
Hey. I love all you guys. Interesting points. I would say Gary clings to a literal POV which is simply where he is at. I can't really fault him. It's his trip.

Peace

Since: Aug 11

Location hidden

#32221 Jul 23, 2013
Gary wrote:
Hi Saban:
I am sorry that your upset. However, I do see that the truth hurts when shown from the word and when one is not ready to deal with just the truth of the word of God.
You said:
Faith does NOT come by hearing and hearing by the word of God."
I said and quoted just from the word.
"So then faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God. Romans 10:17
Saban, now these are not my words they are God's words you have to deal with it is not me your upset with but with the word of God.
Saban, your trust is in a literal building and denomination this is why you cannot veer away from anything you have been taught. However, those that truly worship the Lord you hear no mention of any church building or denomination because they worship the Father in Spirit and in truth those are the true worshippers of God Saban and there is no mention at all of some literal building or denomination, listen again in what Jesus words are saying are you going to say this is not true also?
"But the hour cometh, and now is, when the TRUE WORSHIPPEWRS shall worship the Father in SPIRIT and in TRUTH: For the Father seeketh such to worship Him." John 4:23
Saban where is there any mention of a denomination or building or church?
Saban, you see the ones that truly HATE THE TRUTH ARE THE UNSAVED RELIGIOUS ONES THESE ARE THE PEOPLE IN THESE WONDERFUL LOOKING TEMPLES THEY KILLED THE WORD OF LIFE JESUS Christ BECAUSE THEY ALSO THOUGHT THAT THEY HAD THE TRUTH ALSO BUT WHEN EXPOSED BY JESUS THEY HATED HIM THEY SAID THEY LOVE GOD THIS IS FOR SURE IN THEIR MOUTH THEY SAID THIS BUT THEIR HEARTS WRERE FAR FROM HIM TO THE POINT THE KILLED HIM.
Saban, you should carefully read what I have said and go back to my last post and you will see you said: Faith does NOT come by hearing and hearing by the word of God.
I did not put those words in your mouth Saban you did when you wrote this. Now will you also deny John 4:23 when referring to the true worshippers? Please don't get up set I say this out of love and from the word of truth to you Saban and the fact is, faith must come from the fruit of the Spirit of God Himself this is one of the fruits of the Spirit [faith] read, Gal. 5:22-23. Faith does not come from the power of man when they do this or that.
Tell me what do YOU have to do when you get water baptized? Thank you. Gary
<quoted text>
Are we called to "hurt" one another with "The Word?"

Think about it Gary.

“What are you looking at?”

Since: Jan 08

Albuquerque, NM

#32222 Jul 23, 2013
WasteWater wrote:
<quoted text>
I believe those who claim to know the truth do not actually know what truth is. All of this is a great spiritual mystery. Each of us has our own path. The truth can only be revealed through the Holy Spirit.
....actually - it will be revealed to us through death.

The HS has yet to be proven.

Unless, you have some sort of inside information to this entity.

Do you?

Since: Aug 11

Location hidden

#32223 Jul 23, 2013
New Age Spiritual Leader wrote:
<quoted text>
....actually - it will be revealed to us through death.
The HS has yet to be proven.
Unless, you have some sort of inside information to this entity.
Do you?
Can't prove anything using readily verifiable, non-ontological information, but I feel as though I have experienced what might be called the Holy Spirit many times. How about you? Do you do any spiritual practices yourself?

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