What Your Church Won't Tell You by Da...
socci

Osceola, MO

#32116 Jul 20, 2013
Saban fan wrote:
Beyond knowing they came from God's Spirit, you can't even prove who wrote Hebrews to know who's 'personal lines' they are.
Do you not think God recognizes the kingdom as His Son's? It belongs to Christ. He is the King of His Kingdom. Jesus is Lord.
The book of Hebrews points out the differences in the Old Covenant and the perfect New Covenant. There's no wonder why there would be many references to the Hebrew Scriptures and the fulfillment of the law therein that Jesus the Christ fulfilled.

The only dif between the old and new covenants is FAITH in Jesus replaced the sacrificial system that was previously used by Israel to atone for sin as Jesus was the final sacrifice. This specific part of the Law of Moses was nailed to the cross (Col 2:14) But God's 10C Law remains forever.
socci

Osceola, MO

#32117 Jul 20, 2013
bmz wrote:
The Jewish Holy Scriptures were penned in Hebrew but they were never penned in Greek.
The first translation in Greek was known as the Septuagint, which was a translation of the first five books of the Jewish Holy Scriptures and later on other books were added into the Septuagint.
The Jewish Holy Scriptures were never known as the Old Testament. The Jews never used the words Old Testament for their Scripture. To them that was the only book and they always called it Tanakh.
The name Old Testament was accorded to the translation in Greek, around 180-200 A. D, when Tertullian called the Christian writings, the New Testament.
No, I wasn't saying that.

The KJV uses the Hebrew Masoretic translated directly to English.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masoretic_Text
FreedomFromRELIG ION

Duluth, GA

#32118 Jul 20, 2013
Religion is just a CRUTCH for LO$ERS who can not think for them selfs; DON'T BE A LIMPING LO$ER, KIDS!
socci

Osceola, MO

#32119 Jul 20, 2013
bmz wrote:
I don't see Jesus fulfilling anything.
The problem is that Jesus is not on record for saying himself things such as:
I am the Son of God.
I am God in flesh or I am God in person.
I am the Father.
I am God.
I am the LORD.
God is triune or a Trinity.
There is nothing direct from Jesus' own mouth.
If Jesus had taught his disciples that he was any of above, the Bishops would not have quarreled for
2-3 centuries and would not have been summoned by a pagan emperor to settle the dispute.
If all of above claims were true, then there should have been no dispute at all from the day that Jesus was gone. Right?

Yes he said all that as recorded throughout including the books of John to Revelation.

"Now I tell you before it come, that, when it is come to pass, you may believe that I am he." (John 13:19)

Rv.22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last...I Jesus have sent my angel to testify to you these things in the churches.

There are many verses quoting Jesus about the trinity nature of the Godhead.
Saban fan

Decatur, AL

#32120 Jul 20, 2013
socci wrote:
<quoted text>
The only dif between the old and new covenants is FAITH in Jesus replaced the sacrificial system that was previously used by Israel to atone for sin as Jesus was the final sacrifice. This specific part of the Law of Moses was nailed to the cross (Col 2:14) But God's 10C Law remains forever.
And the church became God's people, Spiritual Israel. From there, quite a bit changed.
Saban fan

Decatur, AL

#32121 Jul 20, 2013
socci wrote:
<quoted text>
The only dif between the old and new covenants is FAITH in Jesus replaced the sacrificial system that was previously used by Israel to atone for sin as Jesus was the final sacrifice. This specific part of the Law of Moses was nailed to the cross (Col 2:14) But God's 10C Law remains forever.
The Priesthood changed as well.
socci

Collins, MO

#32122 Jul 20, 2013
Jesus is the high priest to those of the faith.

Hebrews (KJV)

4:14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.
4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

7:26 For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;
7:27 Who needs not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself.

8:1 Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens;
8:2 A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man.
8:3 For every high priest is ordained to offer gifts and sacrifices: why it is of necessity that this man have somewhat also to offer.
8:4 For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law:
8:5 Who serve to the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, said he, that you make all things according to the pattern showed to you in the mount.

9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.
9:23 It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
9:24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:
9:25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest enters into the holy place every year with blood of others;
9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world has he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

Since: Aug 11

Location hidden

#32123 Jul 20, 2013
bmz wrote:
<quoted text>
At least Paul should have used "it was said in the Scripture that" but in the case of Hebrews 1, it is clear that he gave wrong and false impression by combining a few lines of his own with Psalms and other books, only to show as if Jesus was God of God.
And it is strange to note that he did not refer to any of Jesus' teachings at all and covers almost half of the NT.
Thanks.
Paul plagiarized a great deal of stuff. His writings were letters in response to others. Unfortunately, the letters written to him no longer exist. How is it that his letters survived, yet none of the others did? Could it be some of the writings were attributed to Paul?

Since: Aug 11

Location hidden

#32124 Jul 20, 2013
socci wrote:
Jesus is the high priest to those of the faith.
Hebrews (KJV)
4:14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.
4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
7:26 For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;
7:27 Who needs not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself.
8:1 Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens;
8:2 A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man.
8:3 For every high priest is ordained to offer gifts and sacrifices: why it is of necessity that this man have somewhat also to offer.
8:4 For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law:
8:5 Who serve to the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, said he, that you make all things according to the pattern showed to you in the mount.
9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.
9:23 It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
9:24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:
9:25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest enters into the holy place every year with blood of others;
9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world has he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
According to Paul and your phony KJV fraud Bible.
bmz

Since: Mar 08

Location hidden

#32127 Jul 20, 2013
WasteWater wrote:
Paul plagiarized a great deal of stuff. His writings were letters in response to others. Unfortunately, the letters written to him no longer exist. How is it that his letters survived, yet none of the others did?

Could it be some of the writings were attributed to Paul?
Indeed and yes almost half of his letters are considered written by unknown men, by modern scholars. Hebrews is one of the forgeries under Paul's name.

Here is my take on Paul:

Paul came out of the blue and filled the vacuum left by Jesus and his disciples, who had gone into hiding.

The best joke is that Jesus never said a word about Paul to his disciples at all and did not even prophesy to them about Paul. Surely, Jesus would have at least tipped the disciples about the coming of this man. Right? But we do not have any testimony about Paul from another witness. Self-testimony is no testimony.

Personal letters cannot be considered Scripture. Jesus came with nothing new, brought nothing new and left nothing. When the Church was founded in the 4th Century, it had no Scripture. That is when the presbyters went in search and picked up everything they could.

Most were thrown into the bin of Apocrypha and that which deserved to be thrown in the bin, was canonized. As there was not much available on the teachings of Jesus, so Paul's letters were included.

The most striking part is Paul's statement in Galatians 1:8

"Galatians 1:8 New International Version (NIV)

But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God’s curse!"

Under this Clause, all the four writers of the NT gospels and the gospels stand under God's Curse.

Isn't that shocking?
bmz

Since: Mar 08

Location hidden

#32128 Jul 20, 2013
socci wrote:
The KJV uses the Hebrew Masoretic translated directly to English.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masoretic_Text
It claims that but I do not believe it because OT was translated into English from texts in Greek only.

If one reads any OT translation in parallel with the Jewish Tanakh, one can easily find distortions and forgeries.

I can show some, if you wish.

Have you read the first translation of OT in English in the later part of the 14th Century by John Wycliffe?
bmz

Since: Mar 08

Location hidden

#32129 Jul 21, 2013
Saban fan wrote:
<quoted text>
Answer to your 1st question: he fulfilled all of the prophesy in the OT about the coming Messiah. Isa. 7:17/Luke 1:26-35, Micah 5:2/Matthew 2:1-6, Hosea 11:1/Matt. 2:15, Psm. 41:9/Matt. 26:15, Zechariah 11:12/Mark 14:10,21, Isaiah 53:9-12/Matt. 27:38, Psm. 22:16/John 20:27, Psm. 69:21/Matt. 27:34, Psm 22:18/John 19:24, Isa. 53:9/Matt. 27:57, Psm 16:10/Acts 2:27-31
He is our way to Heaven - John 14:1-6, 1 Pet. 3:18, 1 Tim. 2:5. He also tells us he is the true vine, the door, the light of the world, the bread of life, the good shepherd, the resurrection and the life, the way, the truth, and the life. He reconciles us to our Father 2 Cor. 5:19 by being our way of pardon for our sins Matt. 1:21.
He is Emmanuel meaning God with us Matt. 1:23. The Alpha and Omega, Rev. 1:8,11, our perfect High Priest in the order of Melchizedek, Heb 3:1, our Advocate, 1 John 2:1, the True God, 1 John 5:20, anointed of God, Matt. 3:17, as a Teacher come from God, John 3:2.
I have no dispute with these claims. I believe Jesus is the Son of GOD!
Some comments:

The problem is that there is no talk about any Messiah in the Torah at all. We do not see anywhere God promising the Jews a Messiah.

We only see God promising the Hebrews a Prophet in Deut 18.

Yes, Immanuel means "God with us" but it does not mean that the person named Immanuel has to be or is God.

Melchizedek was no High Priest of God. There was even no Temple of God at that time. He was a poor tribal king of Salem, who brought food and drinks to Abraham.

Abraham had pity on him and gave him a tenth of his spoil, which he won in the battle. The 10% tithes had not even been prescribed at that time.
Saban fan

Decatur, AL

#32130 Jul 21, 2013
bmz wrote:
<quoted text>
Indeed and yes almost half of his letters are considered written by unknown men, by modern scholars. Hebrews is one of the forgeries under Paul's name.
Here is my take on Paul:
Paul came out of the blue and filled the vacuum left by Jesus and his disciples, who had gone into hiding.
The best joke is that Jesus never said a word about Paul to his disciples at all and did not even prophesy to them about Paul. Surely, Jesus would have at least tipped the disciples about the coming of this man. Right? But we do not have any testimony about Paul from another witness. Self-testimony is no testimony.
Personal letters cannot be considered Scripture. Jesus came with nothing new, brought nothing new and left nothing. When the Church was founded in the 4th Century, it had no Scripture. That is when the presbyters went in search and picked up everything they could.
Most were thrown into the bin of Apocrypha and that which deserved to be thrown in the bin, was canonized. As there was not much available on the teachings of Jesus, so Paul's letters were included.
The most striking part is Paul's statement in Galatians 1:8
"Galatians 1:8 New International Version (NIV)
But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God’s curse!"
Under this Clause, all the four writers of the NT gospels and the gospels stand under God's Curse.
Isn't that shocking?
Oh please!?!?

Hebrews is not "under Paul's name". He may have written it but we have no evidence of such. Fact is: we don't know.

Jesus' disciples had gone into hiding?? The only time they hid or scattered is when Jesus had been killed. He was seen by many people after his resurrection and we read of no hiding after that. They would all give thier lives for the cause.

Saul of Tarsus (later named Paul) came along as a zealous God fearing man intent on stamping out the Christians. Fact is: his drastic turnaround from Christian persecutor to probably the greatest Christian missionary ever is just another evidence to Christians of Jesus' life, death and resurrection. Paul had to be absolutely convinced by his blinding meeting that Jesus was who He said He was.

Why wood Paul flip His strong allegiance to God like he did? Why would he risk life and limb and be jailed over and over to preach Christ after persecuting the church??

"No testimony about Paul from other witnesses"? Peter himself said that Paul's writings were to be considered "scripture".

Gal 1:8 is warning us about people like you. Paul is warning us not to follow any gospel preached that is not the one we read about in scripture. Obviously, as he was led by the Spirit, there was knowledge that there would be false teachers then and now and the only way to pick them out was to compare their words to the scripture that has been preserved for us by the Spirit of God.
Saban fan

United States

#32131 Jul 21, 2013
bmz wrote:
<quoted text>
Some comments:
The problem is that there is no talk about any Messiah in the Torah at all. We do not see anywhere God promising the Jews a Messiah.
We only see God promising the Hebrews a Prophet in Deut 18.
Yes, Immanuel means "God with us" but it does not mean that the person named Immanuel has to be or is God.
Melchizedek was no High Priest of God. There was even no Temple of God at that time. He was a poor tribal king of Salem, who brought food and drinks to Abraham.
Abraham had pity on him and gave him a tenth of his spoil, which he won in the battle. The 10% tithes had not even been prescribed at that time.
Melchizedek was the King of Salem or the "King of 'Peace'. The scripture says he was the Priest of God Most High. David refers to him in Psalms 110 as well. As Heb. 7:1-3 hints, Melchizedek could possibly be Jesus. We know from Genesis 1 that Jesus was with God at creation. Couldn't it be possible that an OT figure Jesus is compared to could in fact be him? Possible.
bmz

Since: Mar 08

Location hidden

#32132 Jul 21, 2013
Saban fan wrote:
<quoted text>
Melchizedek was the King of Salem or the "King of 'Peace'. The scripture says he was the Priest of God Most High. David refers to him in Psalms 110 as well. As Heb. 7:1-3 hints, Melchizedek could possibly be Jesus. We know from Genesis 1 that Jesus was with God at creation. Couldn't it be possible that an OT figure Jesus is compared to could in fact be him? Possible.
I don't believe that Jesus was Melchizedek.

I have already said the following about Melchizedek:

"Melchizedek was no High Priest of God. There was even no Temple of God at that time.

He was a poor tribal king of Salem, who brought food and drinks to Abraham.

Abraham had pity on him and gave him a tenth of his spoil, which he won in the battle. The 10% tithes had not even been prescribed at that time."

How can Jesus be everything? He is God according to Christianity. Right?

Why would that God be High Priest? I don't think the Father in Heaven is running Temples, Synagogues and Churches.
Gary

Buffalo, NY

#32133 Jul 21, 2013
Hi Saban:

Yes, you are correct that Jesus is the King of Melchisedec king of Salem,[Salem] means [peace] Jesus is the prince of peace in Heb. 7:1-3 you aludded to shows that He was without Father and without Mother he had neither beginning of days nor end He is the Alfha and the Omega. This is called an epiphany meaning that God was able to take on the form of man at will as He did when the three men went to see Abraham to warn them about the destruction of the cities of Sodom. Thank you for sharing those verses. Gary
Saban fan wrote:
<quoted text>
Melchizedek was the King of Salem or the "King of 'Peace'. The scripture says he was the Priest of God Most High. David refers to him in Psalms 110 as well. As Heb. 7:1-3 hints, Melchizedek could possibly be Jesus. We know from Genesis 1 that Jesus was with God at creation. Couldn't it be possible that an OT figure Jesus is compared to could in fact be him? Possible.
bmz

Since: Mar 08

Location hidden

#32134 Jul 21, 2013
Saban fan wrote:
Oh please!?!?

Hebrews is not "under Paul's name". He may have written it but we have no evidence of such. Fact is: we don't know.

Jesus' disciples had gone into hiding?? The only time they hid or scattered is when Jesus had been killed. He was seen by many people after his resurrection and we read of no hiding after that. They would all give thier lives for the cause.

Saul of Tarsus (later named Paul) came along as a zealous God fearing man intent on stamping out the Christians. Fact is: his drastic turnaround from Christian persecutor to probably the greatest Christian missionary ever is just another evidence to Christians of Jesus' life, death and resurrection. Paul had to be absolutely convinced by his blinding meeting that Jesus was who He said He was.

Why wood Paul flip His strong allegiance to God like he did? Why would he risk life and limb and be jailed over and over to preach Christ after persecuting the church??

"No testimony about Paul from other witnesses"? Peter himself said that Paul's writings were to be considered "scripture".

Gal 1:8 is warning us about people like you. Paul is warning us not to follow any gospel preached that is not the one we read about in scripture. Obviously, as he was led by the Spirit, there was knowledge that there would be false teachers then and now and the only way to pick them out was to compare their words to the scripture that has been preserved for us by the Spirit of God.
In that case the book Hebrews should not have been incorporated in the NT, since Hebrews 1 is definitely a lie against God. The author just tried to show supremacy of Jesus and that is wrong.

There is no proof that Paul was persecuting the Church or Christians as both were never there. We don't see Paul going after Jesus and his disciples at all, when they were out in the open.

Peter himself, along with John was illiterate or unschooled! How could he appreciate the writings of Paul?

Gospels came long, long after Paul's letters and preaching. That is why I said that those four gospels were not preached by Paul and company. Hence under Galatians Clause 1:8, the gospels and the writers stand accursed.
Gary

Buffalo, NY

#32135 Jul 21, 2013
Hi Saban:

The real problem that your having coming to terms with al this is his, your looking at baptism as just [hto water] this is not what God is referring to cleanses us as I said it is the shadow not the substance. I have shown you there is no water mentioned in most of the verses you are showing me but your taught to look at this word as just [water] we know literal water has no power to wash away sins this is why I shown you from the word that it is the [word] that cleanses us, Eph. 5:26 I have shown you the literal rendering for [baptism] means to wash, cleanse, and to purify. Saban, literal [water] cannot do this and I cannot make this real to you no way the word and the Spirit must make this truth real to you. This is why I shown you Acts 1, please reread this chapter the [baptism] one needs for salvation is being baptized or made clean or to wash or to purify comes from being baptized by the Holy Spirit this is what seals the believer not some literal water in what man does.

Saban, you don't see yet that we cannot go to saying one is saved by grace though faith on one hand then turn around and say we are made clean by water baptism it will not wash away ones sins only the shed blood of the Lord Jesus can do this for without the shedding of blood there is NO REMISSION or forgiveness for sins it has nothing to do with what one does by being dunked or dipped into some literal water these are pictures and shadows of salvation it is not literal water that saves one Saban your focus is on the literal this is why one must be born again by the word and the Spirit because the Bible is a spiritual book and if your not born again what I am saying from the word will not make any sense to you sad to say this is what your church is teaching you Saban not the word you need to allow and bow to the word not to some denominations teaching or creeds. We have nothing to do with God's salvation plan your saying we do Saban by what WE, I ME, does when I get water hto baptized. Either one is saved by grace through faith or he is not saved. God is not adding to the way He saves in Eph 2:8-9 I am sorry but your adding to God's plan of salvation buy adding water baptism saves you, this is not grace alone by the faith of Christ it is the work of man this gospel sad to say but it is deadly to teach a works gospel and when you teach that water baptism saves your making void the Spirit of grace sad to say. Please think and pray about this look at the literal Greek rendering of [baptism] and compare this with Eph. 5:26, and 1 Peter 1:23. Thank you. Gary
Saban fan wrote:
<quoted text>
Maybe you just don't understand that when I'm taught by the Word I'm being taught by the Spirit. If a person does not know the Word and has not been taught from the Word they've not been taught by the Spirit.
Baptism purifies us spiritually (Acts 2:38). I'm sorry that you don't agree with it, but its clearly instructed in the Bible because it was commanded by Jesus in the Great Commisson. If not for the Word, provided through the Spirit, I wouldn't know this and wouldn't be able to read about it in all of the conversion examples from Pentecost on.
It ALL falls into place Gary. None of the scriptures comtradict, but in your belief, they do. See Acts 2:38, or see the conversion of the Eunuch in Acts 8 for starters.
I am saved through the grace of God, and I put on Christ in baptism. No work involved except in your opinion. God did the Work, I just submitted to His command.
Saban fan

United States

#32136 Jul 21, 2013
bmz wrote:
<quoted text>
I don't believe that Jesus was Melchizedek.
I have already said the following about Melchizedek:
"Melchizedek was no High Priest of God. There was even no Temple of God at that time.
He was a poor tribal king of Salem, who brought food and drinks to Abraham.
Abraham had pity on him and gave him a tenth of his spoil, which he won in the battle. The 10% tithes had not even been prescribed at that time."
How can Jesus be everything? He is God according to Christianity. Right?
Why would that God be High Priest? I don't think the Father in Heaven is running Temples, Synagogues and Churches.
He is our High Priest and the church belongs to Him. He purchased it with His blood.
Saban fan

Springfield, NJ

#32137 Jul 21, 2013
bmz wrote:
<quoted text>
In that case the book Hebrews should not have been incorporated in the NT, since Hebrews 1 is definitely a lie against God. The author just tried to show supremacy of Jesus and that is wrong.
There is no proof that Paul was persecuting the Church or Christians as both were never there. We don't see Paul going after Jesus and his disciples at all, when they were out in the open.
Peter himself, along with John was illiterate or unschooled! How could he appreciate the writings of Paul?
Gospels came long, long after Paul's letters and preaching. That is why I said that those four gospels were not preached by Paul and company. Hence under Galatians Clause 1:8, the gospels and the writers stand accursed.
We have so many "experts" here that do not know how to "rightly divide" the Word. For one, the church did not exist while Jesus lived. It came into being several weeks after His ascension. We see it come into place in Acts 2.

Paul was there when Stephen was stoned for his faith. Paul admitted persecuting Christians and thought at the time he was sincerely right with God in doing so.

Those "illiterate/unschooled " guys were given the abilities to speak in languages the'd never learned among many other miracles they had the power to perform. Perhaps if what you say is true about them it is additional evidence that what they communicated was directly from God.

Paul taught "the gospel" to many nations. It's silly to think he didn't preach the gospel of Jesus Christ.

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