What Your Church Won't Tell You by Da...

“Romans 8:1.”

Since: Aug 09

Location hidden

#32018 Jul 17, 2013
Gary wrote:
Hi Dr:
I AGREE WITH YOU ALSO. THE PROBLEM WITH THE UNSAVED RELIGIOUS PEOPLE IS,
1- Signs of a cult.
2- They only stay within there churches teaching.
3- They cannot think out of what there churches teaches.
4- Anyone who shows verses in love and concern to show where they are in grave error they will not allow the word to correct them, 2 Tim. 3:16, the reason being there church is their final authority not the word of God.
5- If you disagree with their foundation they will dismiss what your sharing in the word they are blinded to the most basic truth's they have become clouded to such a degree they cannot even understand the most basic foundation because it was not filtered through their churches teaching.
6- They will say they love the Lord yet they show hate and contempt for the word when shown.
7- They cannot explain questions from the word only that it goes against their churches teaching.
8- They will start to show their true colors by name calling they will have this ubcontrolable slap tic, knee jerk reaction when you show that they are in error and they will begin to slander, mock, and show contempt for the truth.
9- They will play dodge ball with truth if they cannot answer a question they will not say, I am sorry but I do not know this question, What they will do however, is dodge the issue with another question sad to say.
10- They are not ready or open to correction from the word sad to say, these are signs that these dear sous have been snared. Thank you. Gary
<quoted text>
You just discribed yourself Dary and the way you've been brainwashed by the Camping Cult.

1- Signs of a cult.

Check. The Camping Cult predicting the date of the Rapture. Which we all know didn't happen. And which we also know you promoted daily in here Dary.

2- They only stay within there churches teaching.

Check. You came in here everyday and spewed everything Camping (your church) told you to.

3- They cannot think out of what there churches teaches.

Check. You clearly showed that you couldn't think beyond what Camping taught you by clinging to his prediction about the rapture till the bitter end.
_______

Gidve it up Dary. You're still singing the lying Camping tune and nobody is buying it with the exception of shrinky, and we all know how messed up he is.

“What are you looking at?”

Since: Jan 08

Albuquerque, NM

#32019 Jul 17, 2013
Gary wrote:
<quoted text>Hi Dr:
I AGREE WITH YOU ALSO. THE PROBLEM WITH THE UNSAVED RELIGIOUS PEOPLE IS,
How do you know who is saved and who aren't saved, especially when supposedly Jesus or "God" are the only ones who your religion claims to be able to make this decision.
You are confused.
Gary wrote:
<quoted text>1- Signs of a cult.
What are the signs of a cult? Saying it without support is only an opinion.
I can say that you are part of a cult and it would fit your character just as well.
Gary wrote:
<quoted text>2- They only stay within there churches teaching.
I'm glad I didn't, otherwise I wouldn't be saved, huh?
Gary wrote:
<quoted text>3- They cannot think out of what there churches teaches.
I'm glad I didn't, otherwise I wouldn't be saved, huh?
Gary wrote:
<quoted text>4- Anyone who shows verses in love and concern to show where they are in grave error they will not allow the word to correct them, 2 Tim. 3:16, the reason being there church is their final authority not the word of God.
Why do you think "Paul" was more enlightened than Jesus in this regard.

Do you have a teaching by Jesus that promotes the same theology?
BTW - Timothy is considered to be one of the "Pastoral" texts that was created by someone other than "Paul".

"Most modern critical scholars argue that 2 Timothy was not written by Paul but by an anonymous follower, after Paul's death in the First Century.[1][2]"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2_Timothy
Gary wrote:
<quoted text>5- If you disagree with their foundation they will dismiss what your sharing in the word they are blinded to the most basic truth's they have become clouded to such a degree they cannot even understand the most basic foundation because it was not filtered through their churches teaching.
How is it that you know these personal attributes of another person, without even meeting them, or knowing what their life has been about?

Are you psychic?
Gary wrote:
<quoted text>6- They will say they love the Lord yet they show hate and contempt for the word when shown.
I disagree.

Most non-believers don't "hate" the Bible, but they will show so-called "Christians" the error in their belief, when confronted with the Bible - as I've shown you multiple times.

I would figure that, a person of your "stature", would have - in the least - responded to the poster with respect and support or evidence to support your position and theology, instead of not responding at all or divert away from the questions.

This shows me that you are not as knowledgeable as you claim, and it shows how you feny these facts and truths. All because you can't come to terms that you follow men and not Jesus and "God" exclusively.

How is it that fallible men can define an infallible "God"?

<<continued>>

“What are you looking at?”

Since: Jan 08

Albuquerque, NM

#32020 Jul 17, 2013
<<continued to Gary>>
Gary wrote:
<quoted text>7- They cannot explain questions from the word only that it goes against their churches teaching.
Incorrect conclusion. One should not use the Bible to resolve personal issues.

Shoot - you downright refuse to answer any question I've asked - with or without the Bible.

You are starting to solidify that you are "uninformed" to what Jesus actually taught.
Gary wrote:
<quoted text>8- They will start to show their true colors by name calling they will have this ubcontrolable slap tic, knee jerk reaction when you show that they are in error and they will begin to slander, mock, and show contempt for the truth.
You can see all of that through your monitor? WOW!! You must be magic.

:o)

Seriously, your judgment of others will be your own downfall.
Gary wrote:
<quoted text>9- They will play dodge ball with truth if they cannot answer a question they will not say, I am sorry but I do not know this question, What they will do however, is dodge the issue with another question sad to say.
This sounds very much like what you have done when I've asked questions of you.

Hypocrite.
Gary wrote:
<quoted text>10- They are not ready or open to correction from the word sad to say, these are signs that these dear sous have been snared. Thank you. Gary
How is it that men can correct me and my belief? I thought my relationship with "God" and Jesus are 'personal'.

You truly are confused on what you are supposed to believe and what you express to others.

“What are you looking at?”

Since: Jan 08

Albuquerque, NM

#32021 Jul 17, 2013
Gary wrote:
Hi New:
As I said before, this is why you cannot understand this the reason being New, you do not believe the Bible is the word of God. So I understand why you never quote from the word of God. This is why I will quote just from the word as my only spiritual book of truth.
I accept the teaching by Jesus and the whole of the Bible because the Bible tells us in, 2 Tim. 3:16. ALL scripture is GOD BREATHED,,,"
New, not just some of scripture is God breathed but ALL is, this is what you do not believe and this is why you have a problem and I fully understand why. Thank you. Gary
<quoted text>
You have no right to tell me what I understand and what I do not. That would be arrogance on your part.

I understand quite well the whole of the Bible.

I also understand your limitation that have placed upon "God" only shows how you like to claim men to be superior than "God" by only choosing a seledct variety of texts.

Please post from the Bible, where "God" has specifically stated that any teaching by Jesus - outside the Bible - is not inspired or useable by his followers?

Why do you still think and believe the OT laws - no matter how "horrendous" they are, are valid? You know the ones I'm talking about - the ones that apply to stoning people to death, or even allowing a man to rape a virgin and all he would have to do is pay the father some cash, and she is his for life?

You are not only confused about your belief, but man, you sure are evil if you think these passages are still valid and true for modern men.

I'll wait for your response, in order for you to "correct" me.

“What are you looking at?”

Since: Jan 08

Albuquerque, NM

#32022 Jul 17, 2013
New Age Spiritual Leader wrote:

If you beleive "THE HUGE DIFFERENCE IS, WE ARE NOT JESUS! YOU SEE SABAN, JESUS COULD DO THIS BECAUSE HE HAS PERFECT KNOWLEDGE WE SURE DO NOT HAVE"
- "Jesus has perfect knowledge"
...then why is it that you do not accept these teachings by Jesus, if these are part of his "perfect knowledge"?
http://www.gnosis.org/naghamm/gth_pat_rob.htm
You seem to be contradicting your own belief.
Please post your evidence from "God" that shows that these teachings by Jesus are not "perfect".
Gary wrote:
Hi New:
As I said before, this is why you cannot understand this the reason being New, you do not believe the Bible is the word of God. So I understand why you never quote from the word of God. This is why I will quote just from the word as my only spiritual book of truth.
I accept the teaching by Jesus and the whole of the Bible because the Bible tells us in, 2 Tim. 3:16. ALL scripture is GOD BREATHED,,,"
New, not just some of scripture is God breathed but ALL is, this is what you do not believe and this is why you have a problem and I fully understand why. Thank you. Gary
<quoted text>
BTW Gary, where is the statement by "GOd" that states that the Gospel of Thomas isn't "God breathed"??

You do have this information, right?

More honestly, you don't and will never post anythign to substantiate your claim that it wasn't.

In a nutshell, you'll probably go on believing what men have told you to believe, in addition to the incompleteness of Jesus you profess is "complete".

I can tell you would rather be deceitful than express honesty, not only to me and others, but to yourself.

How honest can you truly be?

“What are you looking at?”

Since: Jan 08

Albuquerque, NM

#32023 Jul 17, 2013
Red Apples wrote:
<quoted text>
You just discribed yourself Dary and the way you've been brainwashed by the Camping Cult.
1- Signs of a cult.
Check. The Camping Cult predicting the date of the Rapture. Which we all know didn't happen. And which we also know you promoted daily in here Dary.
2- They only stay within there churches teaching.
Check. You came in here everyday and spewed everything Camping (your church) told you to.
3- They cannot think out of what there churches teaches.
Check. You clearly showed that you couldn't think beyond what Camping taught you by clinging to his prediction about the rapture till the bitter end.
_______
Gidve it up Dary. You're still singing the lying Camping tune and nobody is buying it with the exception of shrinky, and we all know how messed up he is.
Interesting theory.

If true, "Gary" would also have been the one promoting 5/21/2011 as the day of the Rapture and the beginning to the end.

I remember asking that person, if it doesn't occur, would he dismiss religion altogether.
- I never rcvd a response then, and still none today.

Hmmmm.....a so-called "Christian" that can't take responsibility for their actions. Imagine that.
Saban fan

Decatur, AL

#32027 Jul 18, 2013
Gary wrote:
Hi Saban:
I am truly sorry but your not ready to deal with the issues here at all sad to say, I thought you were open to questions. Now the fact is, anyone can go back to our past posts and see that your avoiding the main issues.
SABAN, I EVEN ANSWERED THIS SAME QUESTION YOUR GIVING CONCERNING JESUS WOULD ASK A QUESTION WITH A QUESTION. I SAID TO YOU SABAN THE HUGE DIFFERENCE IS, WE ARE NOT JESUS! YOU SEE SABAN, JESUS COULD DO THIS BECAUSE HE HAS PERFECT KNOWLEDGE WE SURE DO NOT HAVE THIS SO THIS IS A VERY LAME EXUSE AT BEST TO DODGE MY QUESTIONS.
Now Saban I gave you verse after verse stating why we are all born sinners you can see you gave no verses showing that mankind is born without sin not one sad to say.
You could not explain any of the many verses I gave showing in Adam ALL die the Bible declares but in Christ all should be made alive, I shared verses stating in Psalm 58:3 that we go astray as soon as we are born, I showed you that all have sinned and come short of the glory of God. I have shown you in Eph. 2:1 that we all have sinned and trespassed, I have shown you in Rom. 9:11-24 showing before one is even born God chose and loved Jacob and hated Esahu that the purpose of God according to election might stand not of any works but of Him that calleth.
Saban, these are just a few of many more verses I have shared to you showing what Jesus said and yet you claim to love the Lord but you do not love those words of God and you could not explain one of them away sad to say.
Saban, in love and concern I can see your problem that is, your trust is not in the word of God but in what your church teaches this is why you exalt your church above the very word of God stating you do not believe a person can be a Christian and not be a member of a church.
Saban, I am sorry but the churches started at home not in some building man made up, look how the temples of Jesus day treated Jesus the word of truth, they had the word of truth killed.
Saban, I am sorry but you are a novice in the word this is why I asked you to get a concordance complete word study, and look up words such as, elect, election, predestinate, chose, chosen, ordain, called, and so on. I can see you have not done these word studies this would have been a great assist to you. Please, take your eyes off your church and look to the word ONLY, how do you even know your in the right church? Thank you. Gary
<quoted text>
We should just go ahead and agree now on a solution that help keep theses posts from being so long and wordy. How about before every sentence you type addressing the doctrine I believe we'll both just understand that you're saying "I'm truly sorry Saban.." when you type the + sign. Then, at the end of those sentences instead of typing "..sad to say" you could just type the sign (.

Agreed?
Saban fan

Decatur, AL

#32028 Jul 18, 2013
Gary wrote:
Hi Saban:

SABAN, I EVEN ANSWERED THIS SAME QUESTION YOUR GIVING CONCERNING JESUS WOULD ASK A QUESTION WITH A QUESTION. I SAID TO YOU SABAN THE HUGE DIFFERENCE IS, WE ARE NOT JESUS! YOU SEE SABAN, JESUS COULD DO THIS BECAUSE HE HAS PERFECT KNOWLEDGE WE SURE DO NOT HAVE THIS SO THIS IS A VERY LAME EXUSE AT BEST TO DODGE MY QUESTIONS.
I've always heard that living the Christian life was to model yourself as closely as possible to Jesus Christ. To do things the way He would do them. To treat people the way He would treat people. Are you telling me I shouldn't model myself after Jesus Christ and use Him as my example?

When he was asked questions that were basically 'traps' he answered those questions with questions. His questions did an outstanding job of answering the question that was asked by making the person asking the question answer it themselves.

Let's try it again:

Here was your question - "How then was the thief on the cross saved?"

My answer - "In person, Jesus told him he would see him in Paradise, right? Do you know of anyone with a similar story?"

That's a simple enough question for you isn't it, Gary?
Saban fan

Decatur, AL

#32029 Jul 18, 2013
Gary wrote:
Hi Saban:
I am truly sorry but your not ready to deal with the issues here at all sad to say, I thought you were open to questions. Now the fact is, anyone can go back to our past posts and see that your avoiding the main issues.
SABAN, I EVEN ANSWERED THIS SAME QUESTION YOUR GIVING CONCERNING JESUS WOULD ASK A QUESTION WITH A QUESTION. I SAID TO YOU SABAN THE HUGE DIFFERENCE IS, WE ARE NOT JESUS! YOU SEE SABAN, JESUS COULD DO THIS BECAUSE HE HAS PERFECT KNOWLEDGE WE SURE DO NOT HAVE THIS SO THIS IS A VERY LAME EXUSE AT BEST TO DODGE MY QUESTIONS.
Now Saban I gave you verse after verse stating why we are all born sinners you can see you gave no verses showing that mankind is born without sin not one sad to say.
You could not explain any of the many verses I gave showing in Adam ALL die the Bible declares but in Christ all should be made alive, I shared verses stating in Psalm 58:3 that we go astray as soon as we are born, I showed you that all have sinned and come short of the glory of God. I have shown you in Eph. 2:1 that we all have sinned and trespassed, I have shown you in Rom. 9:11-24 showing before one is even born God chose and loved Jacob and hated Esahu that the purpose of God according to election might stand not of any works but of Him that calleth.
Saban, these are just a few of many more verses I have shared to you showing what Jesus said and yet you claim to love the Lord but you do not love those words of God and you could not explain one of them away sad to say.
Saban, in love and concern I can see your problem that is, your trust is not in the word of God but in what your church teaches this is why you exalt your church above the very word of God stating you do not believe a person can be a Christian and not be a member of a church.
Saban, I am sorry but the churches started at home not in some building man made up, look how the temples of Jesus day treated Jesus the word of truth, they had the word of truth killed.
Saban, I am sorry but you are a novice in the word this is why I asked you to get a concordance complete word study, and look up words such as, elect, election, predestinate, chose, chosen, ordain, called, and so on. I can see you have not done these word studies this would have been a great assist to you. Please, take your eyes off your church and look to the word ONLY, how do you even know your in the right church? Thank you. Gary
<quoted text>
No need to answer any of my responses to this post with a comment about how I've skipped over portions of it. Just be patient. My answers are coming...

While I'm at it I'm going to present some of the questions I've asked you for which I don't remember seeing an answer. They're coming soon too...
Gary

Buffalo, NY

#32030 Jul 18, 2013
Hi Saban:

I am sorry I am trying to [trap] anyone here.

I AM TRYINGG TO GET TO THE BOTTOM OF THINGS HERE CONCERNING DOCTRINAL TRUTH.

Now concerning patterning ones life after the Lord I fully agree. However, to fully understand what it means to pattern ones self after the Lord we must first look to His word to do so if He has saved one by His word and His Spirit this is the only way one can truly follow the Lord He first must be saved this is a fact.

Also, the highest form of true love God tells us in His word. Jesus asked the question, Do you love me? What was Jesus answer that would show that you truly love the Lord? Jesus went on and said, Keep my commandments. Now the whole commandments is the whole word of God not just in Exodus 20. Jesus also said: if you love me keep my words. The highest form of true love is being obedient to the word of God.

Saban, this is why I asked you what other salvation was the thief under if not of grace through faith? This was just a basic biblical foundational question I would have no problem answering an important question as this one. In fact, I never tried to dodge any of your questions that I am aware of here but I have been up-front. I am not ashamed in what I believe in and if I am wrong I am greatful to be corrected by the word not by what a church denomination thinks or any man but by the word of the living God this is the true believer's guide book that corrects, instructs, and reproves all of at times at least it should because none of us here has full knowledge of truth this is another biblical fact. Anyone thinking they do are just full of the pride of man that's it!

Now you did not answer my question concerning how the thief on the cross was saved so I will help you in understanding how the Lord saved him.

1- The thief was saved the exact same way is anyone else was saved that is, by God's grace through faith not of works least any man should boast, Eph. 2:8-9.

2- The thief said, we deserve this punishment, he knew he was a dirty rotten sinner. Eph. 2:1.

3- The thief said of Jesus this man does not deserve this punishment knowing Jesus was not a sinner.

4- The last thing the thief said to Jesus, Lord, remember, me when thou enter into thy kingdom.

5- Jesus was dying on the cross and yet in His love He was still saving at His last breath He said, this day thou shalt be with me in paradise.

Saban, we can see all the work of believing came from the Lord because Jesus said, no man can come to me unless my Father which sent me draws him.

The work to believe was all the work of God.

"And Jesus answered and said unto them, This is THE WORK OF GOD THAT YOU BELIEVE UPON HIM WHOM HE HATH SENT." John 6:29

Saban, do you believe these words of Christ? Remember the highest form of true love is being obedient to the word of God.

Saban, do you believe when Jesus said you cannot come to Him unless the Father draws one to him?

Saban, do you believe when Jesus said, you HAVE NOT CHOSEN ME but I HAVE CHOSEN YOU,,," John 15:16

Saban, these are all tests of God's word to see if you truly love Him. Do we truly believe His word? Thank you. Gary
Saban fan wrote:
<quoted text>
I've always heard that living the Christian life was to model yourself as closely as possible to Jesus Christ. To do things the way He would do them. To treat people the way He would treat people. Are you telling me I shouldn't model myself after Jesus Christ and use Him as my example?
When he was asked questions that were basically 'traps'
Here was your question - "How then was the thief on the cross saved?"
My answer - "In person, Jesus told him he would see him in Paradise, right? Do you know of anyone with a similar story?"
That's a simple enough question for you isn't it, Gary?
Gary

Buffalo, NY

#32031 Jul 18, 2013
Hi New:

I am sorry but I have no clue in what you mean?

I made mention over and over on this site that I believe all the words of Jesus I believe it comes from the very mouth of God. This is why I quote verse after verse from God's word because I believe His word. God alone knows what I believe and what you believe and all of us for that matter so the only thing that really matters is, are we saved by the word and the Spirit of God? John 3:1-6, 4:23, 1 Peter 1:23, Eph. 5:26.

New, is there any verses you like to share in the precious word of God? Thank you. Gary
New Age Spiritual Leader wrote:
<quoted text>
If you beleive "THE HUGE DIFFERENCE IS, WE ARE NOT JESUS! YOU SEE SABAN, JESUS COULD DO THIS BECAUSE HE HAS PERFECT KNOWLEDGE WE SURE DO NOT HAVE"
- "Jesus has perfect knowledge"
...then why is it that you do not accept these teachings by Jesus, if these are part of his "perfect knowledge"?
http://www.gnosis.org/naghamm/gth_pat_rob.htm
You seem to be contradicting your own belief.
Please post your evidence from "God" that shows that these teachings by Jesus are not "perfect".
Gary

Buffalo, NY

#32032 Jul 18, 2013
Hi New:

Some good questions you have raised.

How do you know who is saved and who is not saved?

Answer, God only knows the heart. However, Jesus gave us HUGE clues what to look for and that is:

1- You shall know them by their fruits. Jesus said this and when we see what the fruit of the Spirit is in, Gal. 5:22-23, that is, love, joy, peace, goodness, meekness, gentleness, long-suffering, faith.

Do we see this fruit in the person we talk to?

2- Do they believe and trust the word even if it goes against their churches teaching? Do they truly love the Lord enough to believe God's word over man's?

3- Do they allow for the word of God to correct, reprove, and instruct one? 2 Tim. 3:16.

These are just a few HUGE clues to look for in a believer. Also, after awhile God tells us that our Spirit will bear witness with their Spirit that they are a child of God they will be like minded and have no problem when one corrects the other in love by the word in fact, they are greatful.

To answer your other points God tells us that ALL scripture is God breathed, 2 Tim. 3:16, so it does not matter if it was Matthew, Mark, Luke, or John, it is all the word of God. ALL scripture is God breathed. I believe this by the mercy and grace of God because He said it. Thank you. Gary
New Age Spiritual Leader wrote:
<quoted text>
How do you know who is saved and who aren't saved, especially when supposedly Jesus or "God" are the only ones who your religion claims to be able to make this decision.
You are confused.
<quoted text>
What are the signs of a cult? Saying it without support is only an opinion.
I can say that you are part of a cult and it would fit your character just as well.
<quoted text>
I'm glad I didn't, otherwise I wouldn't be saved, huh?
<quoted text>
I'm glad I didn't, otherwise I wouldn't be saved, huh?
<quoted text>
Why do you think "Paul" was more enlightened than Jesus in this regard.
Do you have a teaching by Jesus that promotes the same theology?
BTW - Timothy is considered to be one of the "Pastoral" texts that was created by someone other than "Paul".
"Most modern critical scholars argue that 2 Timothy was not written by Paul but by an anonymous follower, after Paul's death in the First Century.[1][2]"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2_Timothy
<quoted text>
How is it that you know these personal attributes of another person, without even meeting them, or knowing what their life has been about?
Are you psychic?
<quoted text>
I disagree.
Most non-believers don't "hate" the Bible, but they will show so-called "Christians" the error in their belief, when confronted with the Bible - as I've shown you multiple times.
I would figure that, a person of your "stature", would have - in the least - responded to the poster with respect and support or evidence to support your position and theology, instead of not responding at all or divert away from the questions.
This shows me that you are not as knowledgeable as you claim, and it shows how you feny these facts and truths. All because you can't come to terms that you follow men and not Jesus and "God" exclusively.
How is it that fallible men can define an infallible "God"?
<<continued>>
Saban fan

Decatur, AL

#32034 Jul 18, 2013
Gary wrote:
Hi Saban:
I am sorry I am trying to [trap] anyone here.
I AM TRYINGG TO GET TO THE BOTTOM OF THINGS HERE CONCERNING DOCTRINAL TRUTH.
Now concerning patterning ones life after the Lord I fully agree. However, to fully understand what it means to pattern ones self after the Lord we must first look to His word to do so if He has saved one by His word and His Spirit this is the only way one can truly follow the Lord He first must be saved this is a fact.
Also, the highest form of true love God tells us in His word. Jesus asked the question, Do you love me? What was Jesus answer that would show that you truly love the Lord? Jesus went on and said, Keep my commandments. Now the whole commandments is the whole word of God not just in Exodus 20. Jesus also said: if you love me keep my words. The highest form of true love is being obedient to the word of God.
Saban, this is why I asked you what other salvation was the thief under if not of grace through faith? This was just a basic biblical foundational question I would have no problem answering an important question as this one. In fact, I never tried to dodge any of your questions that I am aware of here but I have been up-front. I am not ashamed in what I believe in and if I am wrong I am greatful to be corrected by the word not by what a church denomination thinks or any man but by the word of the living God this is the true believer's guide book that corrects, instructs, and reproves all of at times at least it should because none of us here has full knowledge of truth this is another biblical fact. Anyone thinking they do are just full of the pride of man that's it!
Now you did not answer my question concerning how the thief on the cross was saved so I will help you in understanding how the Lord saved him.
1- The thief was saved the exact same way is anyone else was saved that is, by God's grace through faith not of works least any man should boast, Eph. 2:8-9.
2- The thief said, we deserve this punishment, he knew he was a dirty rotten sinner. Eph. 2:1.
3- The thief said of Jesus this man does not deserve this punishment knowing Jesus was not a sinner.
4- The last thing the thief said to Jesus, Lord, remember, me when thou enter into thy kingdom.
5- Jesus was dying on the cross and yet in His love He was still saving at His last breath He said, this day thou shalt be with me in paradise.
Saban, we can see all the work of believing came from the Lord because Jesus said, no man can come to me unless my Father which sent me draws him.
The work to believe was all the work of God.
"And Jesus answered and said unto them, This is THE WORK OF GOD THAT YOU BELIEVE UPON HIM WHOM HE HATH SENT." John 6:29
Saban, do you believe these words of Christ? Remember the highest form of true love is being obedient to the word of God.
Saban, do you believe when Jesus said you cannot come to Him unless the Father draws one to him?
Saban, do you believe when Jesus said, you HAVE NOT CHOSEN ME but I HAVE CHOSEN YOU,,," John 15:16
Saban, these are all tests of God's word to see if you truly love Him. Do we truly believe His word? Thank you. Gary
<quoted text>
Sure, I believe everything Jesus says. In John 15:16 he is speaking to the Apostles. It was the custom of the student to select the teacher; however, it was Jesus who chose the apostles. And John 6:29 as Jesus explains in John 3:36, is an obedient faith. When one believes, he obeys.

Speaking of obedience, one of the questions I do not remembering your answer to was as follows:

Where in the Bible do you find that submitting to baptism is "a work"?

Today we cannot be saved the same way the theif on the cross was. If so, point out an example to me of someone saved without baptism after Pentecost when the Lord's Kingdom was unveiled.

“What are you looking at?”

Since: Jan 08

Albuquerque, NM

#32035 Jul 18, 2013
Gary wrote:
Hi New:
I am sorry but I have no clue in what you mean?
I made mention over and over on this site that I believe all the words of Jesus I believe it comes from the very mouth of God. This is why I quote verse after verse from God's word because I believe His word. God alone knows what I believe and what you believe and all of us for that matter so the only thing that really matters is, are we saved by the word and the Spirit of God? John 3:1-6, 4:23, 1 Peter 1:23, Eph. 5:26.
New, is there any verses you like to share in the precious word of God? Thank you. Gary
<quoted text>
You've never heard of the Nag Hammadi Library?

http://www.gnosis.org/naghamm/nhlalpha.html
http://www.gnosis.org/naghamm/gth_pat_rob.htm

I understand, most so-called "Christians" haven't, and when presented with these books, they automatically think that - since it is not in the canon, it isn't from "God", right?

Wrong.

Let me give you a brief history lesson.

Jesus chose 12 Apostles as his disciples of the philosophy he wanted to express. No doubt, you probably know the first 12 by heart, so we won't go into explaining that Thomas is one of them. Then in 325 CE - or there about, 318 bishops were summoned by Constantine to iron out the divisions and 'I believe this, and you believe that' mess that was going on in the Empire. Once assembled, the bishops looked at all the current books written, and they decided upon what books aligned with what everyone wanted to believe to be true. In other words, men deciding upon what other men are to believe.

Anyhow - the stage had been set. But wait, all those other books that weren't chosen by those men to be "holy and inspired", deemed them to heretical. So in order to ensure that happened, those bishops made sure their "subjects" wouldn't get their hands on them, because it would be very bad - so they destroyed any and all copies. That one, who can argue that what they say, is not true. Someone around this time, decided that the books were too important to just destroy or burn and should not be suppressed, so this someone buried them in the desert.

Skip forward to 1945 - the books surface after being found in a big jar. 52 different texts - one being a gospel by Thomas.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nag_Hammadi_libr...

But this gospel is different. It isn't a narrative, or even a story, just 100+ sayings attributed to Jesus.
- many parallels of these sayings must have been available to "Luke: when he wrote his gospel and Acts.
- many scholars also believe that this may be a source for Luke and Matthew, and possibly earlier than GoMark.

So we now arrive to the moment I am posting to you.

a. Thomas was an original Apostle.
b. Thomas is a Saint, so that makes him "holy".
- When the feast of Saint Thomas was inserted in the Roman calendar in the 9th century, it was assigned to 21 December.
c. If he is "holy", it implies he was inspired.
d. If inspired, that meets the same qualification as the other gospels in the canon.
e. The sayings are attributed to Jesus and what he spoke.
- this makes them teachings by Jesus.
f. Christianity does not include all the inspired teachings by Jesus.

If you believe in these teachings, then you can call yourself a follower of Jesus. Right now, it appears you don't, as it also appears that you have never heard of these teachings, so that would put you in the category of, that you are not a so-called "Christian", because you don't follow Jesus completely.

With you continuously quote "Paul" before Jesus, also shows that you place "Paul" in more of an authoritative position ABOVE Jesus. Yes, that is because "Paul" outweighs Jesus in text in the NT.
Saban fan

Decatur, AL

#32036 Jul 18, 2013
Gary wrote:
Hi Saban:
I am sorry I am trying to [trap] anyone here.
I AM TRYINGG TO GET TO THE BOTTOM OF THINGS HERE CONCERNING DOCTRINAL TRUTH.
Now concerning patterning ones life after the Lord I fully agree. However, to fully understand what it means to pattern ones self after the Lord we must first look to His word to do so if He has saved one by His word and His Spirit this is the only way one can truly follow the Lord He first must be saved this is a fact.
Also, the highest form of true love God tells us in His word. Jesus asked the question, Do you love me? What was Jesus answer that would show that you truly love the Lord? Jesus went on and said, Keep my commandments. Now the whole commandments is the whole word of God not just in Exodus 20. Jesus also said: if you love me keep my words. The highest form of true love is being obedient to the word of God.
Saban, this is why I asked you what other salvation was the thief under if not of grace through faith? This was just a basic biblical foundational question I would have no problem answering an important question as this one. In fact, I never tried to dodge any of your questions that I am aware of here but I have been up-front. I am not ashamed in what I believe in and if I am wrong I am greatful to be corrected by the word not by what a church denomination thinks or any man but by the word of the living God this is the true believer's guide book that corrects, instructs, and reproves all of at times at least it should because none of us here has full knowledge of truth this is another biblical fact. Anyone thinking they do are just full of the pride of man that's it!
Now you did not answer my question concerning how the thief on the cross was saved so I will help you in understanding how the Lord saved him.
1- The thief was saved the exact same way is anyone else was saved that is, by God's grace through faith not of works least any man should boast, Eph. 2:8-9.
2- The thief said, we deserve this punishment, he knew he was a dirty rotten sinner. Eph. 2:1.
3- The thief said of Jesus this man does not deserve this punishment knowing Jesus was not a sinner.
4- The last thing the thief said to Jesus, Lord, remember, me when thou enter into thy kingdom.
5- Jesus was dying on the cross and yet in His love He was still saving at His last breath He said, this day thou shalt be with me in paradise.
Saban, we can see all the work of believing came from the Lord because Jesus said, no man can come to me unless my Father which sent me draws him.
The work to believe was all the work of God.
"And Jesus answered and said unto them, This is THE WORK OF GOD THAT YOU BELIEVE UPON HIM WHOM HE HATH SENT." John 6:29
Saban, do you believe these words of Christ? Remember the highest form of true love is being obedient to the word of God.
Saban, do you believe when Jesus said you cannot come to Him unless the Father draws one to him?
Saban, do you believe when Jesus said, you HAVE NOT CHOSEN ME but I HAVE CHOSEN YOU,,," John 15:16
Saban, these are all tests of God's word to see if you truly love Him. Do we truly believe His word? Thank you. Gary
<quoted text>
Did you answer my question of whether you knew of anyone else in scripture with a similar face-to-face salvation story as the thief on the cross?

Do you know anyone today with a similar face to face conversion story? I'll be delighted to answer that for you in a resounding "no" since the Thief on the cross lived under the old law AND since we do not know beyond a shadow of a doubt whether he had possibly been baptized with John's baptism.
Saban fan

Decatur, AL

#32037 Jul 18, 2013
Gary wrote:
Hi Saban:
I am truly sorry but your not ready to deal with the issues here at all sad to say,(removed)
how do you even know your in the right church? Thank you. Gary
<quoted text>
The church begun by The Lord Jesus Christ as promised in Matt. 16:18 belongs to Him. It wears His name. The Apostle Paul wrote in Romans 16:16 "the churches of Christ salute you." He also told the elders of the church in Ephesus, "feed the church of The Lord, which He purchased with His own blood." (Acts 20:28) It should not wear anyone's name but Jesus Christ, right?

As long as the Word of God endures (1 Peter 1:23-25), the church will endure. And that Word "abideth forever."

Every "denomination" has been built by man. And, apparently you missed it, but I've never claimed the church was anything but the Christians (those "in Christ" or Added to the body through baptism for the remission of sins Acts 2:38-47) Nothing to do with the building and especially not a denomination which by definition is a division. We read in His Word that Christ is not divided and we read that he is the head of His church (Eph. 4:4, 1:22,23) therefore denominations (Matt. 12:25) are unfortunately unscriptural.

In Eph. 5:23, Christ is called Savior of the body - and the church is that body.

It is not the church that saves, the church IS the saved, and Christ is the Savior. But how can a saved person be outside that which Christ saves?! Gary, there is no salvation in any division from Christ's church. No church begun by man can offer salvation. One cannot "join" Christ's church. Christ adds them. But Christ is the Savior of His church, to which He adds the saved (Acts 2:47).

Really, since the church is the Bride of Christ (Eph. 5:22-33), how could anyone accept Christ without accepting the church of Christ? And how could one be a part of Christ without being a part of the church of Christ?

We don't select the church of our choice, but the church of His choice. We don't worship after our desire, but as He directs. Those 3000 members added to the church in Acts 2 were members of the church of Christ. If not, tell me what church they were members of...? Was it a denomination?

Gary, isn't the same thing possible today? I believe that it is. If you put your trust in the same Lord they did, if you repent and are baptized as they instructed into Him (Gal. 3:27). He'll add you to His church. It was not a denomination then and it's not one now.

We go back to the Bible for all authority in what we believe and do. By doing just what they did 2,000 years ago, we will be just what they were 2,000 years ago; members of the church of Christ.
bmz

Since: Mar 08

Location hidden

#32039 Jul 18, 2013
New Age Spiritual Leader wrote:
<quoted text>
You've never heard of the Nag Hammadi Library?
http://www.gnosis.org/naghamm/nhlalpha.html
http://www.gnosis.org/naghamm/gth_pat_rob.htm
I understand, most so-called "Christians" haven't, and when presented with these books, they automatically think that - since it is not in the canon, it isn't from "God", right?
Wrong.
Let me give you a brief history lesson.
Jesus chose 12 Apostles as his disciples of the philosophy he wanted to express. No doubt, you probably know the first 12 by heart, so we won't go into explaining that Thomas is one of them. Then in 325 CE - or there about, 318 bishops were summoned by Constantine to iron out the divisions and 'I believe this, and you believe that' mess that was going on in the Empire. Once assembled, the bishops looked at all the current books written, and they decided upon what books aligned with what everyone wanted to believe to be true. In other words, men deciding upon what other men are to believe.
Anyhow - the stage had been set. But wait, all those other books that weren't chosen by those men to be "holy and inspired", deemed them to heretical. So in order to ensure that happened, those bishops made sure their "subjects" wouldn't get their hands on them, because it would be very bad - so they destroyed any and all copies. That one, who can argue that what they say, is not true. Someone around this time, decided that the books were too important to just destroy or burn and should not be suppressed, so this someone buried them in the desert.
Skip forward to 1945 - the books surface after being found in a big jar. 52 different texts - one being a gospel by Thomas.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nag_Hammadi_libr...
But this gospel is different. It isn't a narrative, or even a story, just 100+ sayings attributed to Jesus.
- many parallels of these sayings must have been available to "Luke: when he wrote his gospel and Acts.
- many scholars also believe that this may be a source for Luke and Matthew, and possibly earlier than GoMark.

So we now arrive to the moment I am posting to you.
a. Thomas was an original Apostle.
b. Thomas is a Saint, so that makes him "holy".
- When the feast of Saint Thomas was inserted in the Roman calendar in the 9th century, it was assigned to 21 December.
c. If he is "holy", it implies he was inspired.
d. If inspired, that meets the same qualification as the other gospels in the canon.
e. The sayings are attributed to Jesus and what he spoke.
- this makes them teachings by Jesus.

*****f. Christianity does not include all the inspired teachings by Jesus.*****

If you believe in these teachings, then you can call yourself a follower of Jesus.

Right now, it appears you don't, as it also appears that you have never heard of these teachings, so that would put you in the category of, that you are not a so-called "Christian", because you don't follow Jesus completely.

*****With you continuously quote "Paul" before Jesus, also shows that you place "Paul" in more of an authoritative position ABOVE Jesus. Yes, that is because "Paul" outweighs Jesus in text in the NT.*****
Excellent post. Emphasis using ****, is mine. Thanks
Saban fan

Decatur, AL

#32040 Jul 19, 2013
New Age Spiritual Leader wrote:
<quoted text>
You've never heard of the Nag Hammadi Library?
Let me give you a brief history lesson.
Jesus chose 12 Apostles as his disciples of the philosophy he wanted to express. No doubt, you probably know the first 12 by heart, so we won't go into explaining that Thomas is one of them. Then in 325 CE - or there about, 318 bishops were summoned by Constantine to iron out the divisions and 'I believe this, and you believe that' mess that was going on in the Empire. Once assembled, the bishops looked at all the current books written, and they decided upon what books aligned with what everyone wanted to believe to be true. In other words, men deciding upon what other men are to believe.
Anyhow - the stage had been set. But wait, all those other books that weren't chosen by those men to be "holy and inspired", deemed them to heretical. So in order to ensure that happened, those bishops made sure their "subjects" wouldn't get their hands on them, because it would be very bad - so they destroyed any and all copies. That one, who can argue that what they say, is not true. Someone around this time, decided that the books were too important to just destroy or burn and should not be suppressed, so this someone buried them in the desert.
Skip forward to 1945 - the books surface after being found in a big jar. 52 different texts - one being a gospel by Thomas.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nag_Hammadi_libr...
But this gospel is different. It isn't a narrative, or even a story, just 100+ sayings attributed to Jesus.
- many parallels of these sayings must have been available to "Luke: when he wrote his gospel and Acts.
- many scholars also believe that this may be a source for Luke and Matthew, and possibly earlier than GoMark.
So we now arrive to the moment I am posting to you.
a. Thomas was an original Apostle.
b. Thomas is a Saint, so that makes him "holy".
- When the feast of Saint Thomas was inserted in the Roman calendar in the 9th century, it was assigned to 21 December.
c. If he is "holy", it implies he was inspired.
d. If inspired, that meets the same qualification as the other gospels in the canon.
e. The sayings are attributed to Jesus and what he spoke.
- this makes them teachings by Jesus.
f. Christianity does not include all the inspired teachings by Jesus.
You forgot to mention in your brief history lesson that there is considerable evidence that the document that is called the “Gospel of Thomas” was not authored by the apostle who bore that name.
Nor, that the original “Gospel of Thomas” was compiled about A.D. 140, probably in Edessa, Syria. Some scholars even push the date a little later (A.D. 150-200). Therefore there is no evidence that this work existed in the first century. Most scholars believe that the “Gospel of Thomas” is significantly contaminated with the ancient heretical philosophy known as Gnosticism.

We can be sure that the Holy Spirit has not preserved these "secret sayings" of Jesus along with the other messages we've been provided by Jesus in the Gospels.

If the secret sayings and the lack of its preservation along with the real gospels weren't a red flag the absurd language alone should be a warning to us of the writing's lack of inspiration as follows:

“See I shall lead her, so that I will make her male, that she too may become a living spirit, resembling you males. For every woman who makes herself male will enter the Kingdom of Heaven"

Does that even remotely resemble the dignified status that women are afforded in the New Testament?

The twenty-seven New Testament books are the only inspired records of the Christian age that have come down to us. Obviously, in the providential operations of God, they represent what we were intended to have, to completely qualify us for Christian identity and service (2 Tim. 3:16-17).

“What are you looking at?”

Since: Jan 08

Albuquerque, NM

#32041 Jul 19, 2013
bmz wrote:
<quoted text>
Excellent post. Emphasis using ****, is mine. Thanks
Just telling it like it is.

Honest and direct to the point. I'm done being subtle with those who think they "believe Jesus fully", when they only believe what men have told them - which is not "fully".

It's time for a change!

:o)

“What are you looking at?”

Since: Jan 08

Albuquerque, NM

#32042 Jul 19, 2013
Saban fan wrote:
<quoted text>
You forgot to mention in your brief history lesson that there is considerable evidence that the document that is called the “Gospel of Thomas” was not authored by the apostle who bore that name.
Nor, that the original “Gospel of Thomas” was compiled about A.D. 140, probably in Edessa, Syria. Some scholars even push the date a little later (A.D. 150-200). Therefore there is no evidence that this work existed in the first century. Most scholars believe that the “Gospel of Thomas” is significantly contaminated with the ancient heretical philosophy known as Gnosticism.
We can be sure that the Holy Spirit has not preserved these "secret sayings" of Jesus along with the other messages we've been provided by Jesus in the Gospels.
If the secret sayings and the lack of its preservation along with the real gospels weren't a red flag the absurd language alone should be a warning to us of the writing's lack of inspiration as follows:
“See I shall lead her, so that I will make her male, that she too may become a living spirit, resembling you males. For every woman who makes herself male will enter the Kingdom of Heaven"
Does that even remotely resemble the dignified status that women are afforded in the New Testament?
The twenty-seven New Testament books are the only inspired records of the Christian age that have come down to us. Obviously, in the providential operations of God, they represent what we were intended to have, to completely qualify us for Christian identity and service (2 Tim. 3:16-17).
You've been probably waiting for me to break my silence, huh?

There you go - I've done it. Don't count on it occurring to much often.

Please show me where "God" has specifically stated that this gospel is not inspired.

Please don't use "Paul", as he is not "God".

It is a very simple request and response, so please do not go into some opinionated treatise explaining anymore of the nonsense you have posted above, as I can show support that refutes all of these claims.

All I would like for you to post is just "God's" specific direction to men that this text is not inspired and they are not to use it. Simple, right? We'll see.

Remember - no men's direction - just "God's", okay?

Go!

BTW - outside of "Paul's" letters, Acts and GoLuke, can you please show me the validation that the other NT texts are written by the attributed person for that text?
- Please list who the original author is and also list corresponding support for those specific names you are to supply.
- My suggestion for your search would be to include universities and their confirmations, which no doubt were applied after stringent examinations of the association between the author and how they had arrived at this conclusion.

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