What Your Church Won't Tell You by Da...

Since: Aug 11

Location hidden

#31852 Jul 12, 2013
Scroll button time again.
Saban fan

Decatur, AL

#31853 Jul 12, 2013
proofsinthepuddin wrote:
<quoted text>
Well, where do I start. I also go to a Baptist Church and attended a Baptist Seminary where I earned a post graduate level degree. I have to say that I have never been in a Baptist Church that held DOCTRINAL beliefs of election. There are some Baptist that say they are somewhat Calvinistic but no true baptist would claim to be a five point Calvinist. I have issues personally with eternal salvation. Dont get me wrong, through a grammatical-historical interpretation I do believe that our salvation in Christ is secure. My main problem with the baptist and honestly all denominations is that they are always going to seed over narrow passages of theology. If it is not a black and white fundamental of what it takes to be saved and become a member of the Body of Christ then all of the rest is just preference. We should stand together on those fundamentals and unite, instead of splitting up into our little comfort groups we call denominations. I admire you and your brother for going out and discerning these things for yoursellves but I urge you to unite instead of debating. Blessings!
If, as you mention, we belong to the Body of Christ when we become Christians, why would this Body of Christ be named Baptist?

How does the name “Baptist” bring glory to Christ (Acts 4:12)?
Acts 4:12
12 And in none other is there salvation: for neither is there any other name under heaven, that is given among men, wherein we must be saved.
Gary

Buffalo, NY

#31854 Jul 12, 2013
Hi Saban:

Yes, I agree with you that it would be much better to just keep it to a few verses at a time with a question so we can bring down any confusion when there is to much on the plate so to speak.

Concerning your question to the church of Laodicea were these members members of the church of Jesus?

1- Some were members of the invisible church of the living God this never consisted of some physical building of some kind fact is, the churches started first in their homes. So there were some truly saved and some were not some had many tares in the churches this is why none of those churches are still going today they all fell away.

2- Your next question So being a member of this church they were in fact saved were they not? No, by no means being a member of some church does not place you into salvation what places one into true salvation is all the work of God by His word and His Spirit that one believe, John 6:29, Eph. 2:8-9.

3- What would their out come be if they did not repent? Fact is, it is truly impossible to repent to believe the true gospel God must grant one repentance to even acknowledge truth if not we will be held captive by Satan at his will fact!

"In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves: If God will perhaps GIVE THEM REPENTANCE TO THE ACKNOWLEDGING OF THE TRUTH. And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will." 2 Tim. 2:25-26

Fact, one cannot even repent on his on to see the true gospel to acknowledge the truth why is this? Because we are all born dead in sins, Eph. 2:1 All have sinned and come short of the glory of God it did not say all except babies have sinned and come short of the glory of God did it? No!

Saban, I have answered your three questions. I have just one question for you and that is, can you quote and explain Eph. 1:4-6. I would appreciate you go into some detail concerning those verses and you input. Again, thank you. Gary 1 John 3:13-15
Saban fan wrote:
Gary,
#31821 has so many different subjects involved and is so long I think it would be best to break them out separately.
As you can tell, I believe we have free-will to obey the gospel and be a child of God or to renounce our citizenship in the kingdom if we so chose to go that direction. I can highlight verses that tell us this but instead of doing an exhaustive list as we've both begun to do, I have three questions to ask in this post ----
Concerning the church at Laodicea:
“To the angel of the church in Laodicea write:
These are the words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the ruler of God’s creation. 15 I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot. I wish you were either one or the other! 16 So, because you are lukewarm—neither hot nor cold—I am about to spit you out of my mouth. 17 You say,‘I am rich; I have acquired wealth and do not need a thing.’ But you do not realize that you are wretched, pitiful, poor, blind and naked. 18 I counsel you to buy from me gold refined in the fire, so you can become rich; and white clothes to wear, so you can cover your shameful nakedness; and salve to put on your eyes, so you can see.
19 Those whom I love I rebuke and discipline. So be earnest and repent. 20 Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with that person, and they with me.
My questions:
We're these members of the church at Laodicea members of the church Christ died for?
If so, as members of his church they were in fact saved, correct?
What would their destiny be if they did not repent and continued down their current path?

“What are you looking at?”

Since: Jan 08

Albuquerque, NM

#31855 Jul 12, 2013
Saban fan wrote:
Gary,
(another response to #31821 - Free will / Falling away)
(John 10: 28-29) The utmost security of the saved in Christ lies in the fact that no external power shall ever be able to dislodge them from the Master's love and protection. In this same vein of thought are Paul's great words of Romans 8:31-39; but in both passages, only external things are in view as possible destroyers of the soul; and external things shall not be able to do it. Yet, it must be remembered that a believer himself may turn away from the truth, become entangled with sin and overcome. The sovereign right of choice is never taken away from any man.
Colossians and 1 John were written as a response to Gnosticism with similar Once Saved, Always Saved (OSAS) ideas. 1 John addresses OSAS.
Christians may sin so as to fall from grace:
Galatians 5:4
Ye are severed from Christ, ye would be justified by the law; ye are fallen away from grace.
Hebrews 6:4-6
4 For as touching those who were once enlightened and tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
5 and tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the age to come,
6 and then fell away, it is impossible to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
Hebrews 10:26
26 For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more a sacrifice for sins,
1 Timothy 1:19-20
19 holding faith and a good conscience; which some having thrust from them made shipwreck concerning the faith:
20 of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I delivered unto Satan, that they might be taught not to blaspheme.
2 Peter 2:20-22
20 For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein and overcome, the last state is become worse with them than the first.
21 For it were better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after knowing it, to turn back from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
22 It has happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog turning to his own vomit again, and the sow that had washed to wallowing in the mire.
Apostacy – Falling Away. It is possible to become deceived.
Mark 13:5-6
5 And Jesus began to say unto them, Take heed that no man lead you astray.
6 Many shall come in my name, saying, I am he; and shall lead many astray.
2 Peter 3:17
17 Ye therefore, beloved, knowing these things beforehand, beware lest, being carried away with the error of the wicked, ye fall from your own steadfastness.
Acts 20:28-30
28 Take heed unto yourselves, and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit hath made you bishops, to feed the church of the Lord which he purchased with his own blood.
29 I know that after my departing grievous wolves shall enter in among you, not sparing the flock;
30 and from among your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after them.
2 Timothy 4:3-4
3 For the time will come when they will not endure the sound doctrine; but, having itching ears, will heap to themselves teachers after their own lusts;
4 and will turn away their ears from the truth, and turn aside unto fables.
Just to correct your statement of:
"Colossians and 1 John were written as a response to Gnosticism with similar Once Saved, Always Saved (OSAS) ideas."

Gnosticism does NOT teach OSAS.

Please correct the information you use, what you have wrote is incorrect so you don't continue to mislead others.

Thank you.
Gary

Buffalo, NY

#31856 Jul 12, 2013
Hi Saban:

Look again at Ezek. 28:14-15 and ask your self is mankind called a cherub? No, these are angels and Satan was a fallen angel was he not? We must read the context one can try to prove anything from the Bible if they take a verse out of context. It must be in harmony with the whole of the word of God. the chapter talks about the king of Tyrus read Ezek. 28:1-2

"The word of the LORD came again unto me, saying, Son of man, say unto the prince of Tyrus, Thus saith the LORD GOD; because thine heart is lifted up and thou hast said I AM A GOD, I SIT IN THE SEAT OF GOD, in the midst of the seas; yet thou art a man, and not God, though thou set thine heart as the heart of God."

You see Satan wanted to take his seat in Isa. 14 also and rule in the congergations the word declares this fact in Isa. 14 also as in this verse. Satan said, I WILL be like the most High did he not in Isa. 14 also as in this verse, don't you see this tie in?

When we compare this language with Isa. 14:11-15, you can see it is the same spirit as Satan, Remember, Satan comes as the anti-Christ does he not? He is also called the prince in Ezek. 28 is he not? Satan is also called the prince and power of the air the word declares so these two chapters do tie together. Satan can work in the heart of man as he did with Judas did he not? This is spiritual language and when we look at this in this way we can see Satan can take on many forms working in the hearts of people

Yes, Satan fell away and there is no redemption for him. Saban, maybe now yoy can you quote Eph. 1:4-6 and explain those verses in some detail Saban, still looking forward to your input on those verses. Thank you. Gary
Saban fan wrote:
Gary,
the context of Ezekiel 28:15 is actually a comparison of King of Tyre and Satan.
But, if in fact this verse does not apply to the King of Tyre in any way how was it that Satan as one of God's creations was created perfect (in a "saved" state - if you are correct in your pre-determination doctrine) and was able to fall away?
You would admit Satan fell away, correct?
Saban fan

Decatur, AL

#31857 Jul 12, 2013
New Age Spiritual Leader wrote:
<quoted text>
Just to correct your statement of:
"Colossians and 1 John were written as a response to Gnosticism with similar Once Saved, Always Saved (OSAS) ideas."
Gnosticism does NOT teach OSAS.
Please correct the information you use, what you have wrote is incorrect so you don't continue to mislead others.
Thank you.
The next time you PROMISE to avoid posting replies to me will be the forth time and the last, right?

And to think I thought the third time would be the charm!

Such is the case when you deal with people who claim everyone else's arguments dishonest.

“What are you looking at?”

Since: Jan 08

Albuquerque, NM

#31858 Jul 12, 2013
Saban fan wrote:
<quoted text>
The next time you PROMISE to avoid posting replies to me will be the forth time and the last, right?
And to think I thought the third time would be the charm!
Such is the case when you deal with people who claim everyone else's arguments dishonest.
You misunderstood.

I'm going to continue to call you out on false claims.

I'm just not going to respond to anything else.

Keep counting, that may be the only honest thing you are actually achieving.
Gary

Buffalo, NY

#31859 Jul 12, 2013
Hi Saban:

Saban where do we read that there is two different salvations in the Bible verses and chapter please. The fact is there was always just one salvation from the old to the new it was from faith to faith the Bible declares. Read Hebrews 11.

I QUOTED THIS MANY TIMES BEFORE SHOWING WITHOUT DOUBT THAT THE OLD AND NEW COVEANTS WERE SAVED THE SAME WAY AND THAT WAS ALWAYS BY THE FAITH OF CHRIST BECAUSE HE IS CALLED THE AUTHOR AND FINISHER OF OUR FAITH. HEB. 12:2. THIS IS WHY SABAN WHEN YOU MAKE A STRONG REMARK AS THE ONE YOU DID YOU MUST BACK IT UP WITH MANY VERSES TO PROVE YOUR POINT IF NOT YOU MAY BE OFF ON THE MOST IMPORTANT SUBJECT AND THAT IS, THE VERY NAURE OF SALVATION IF WE HAVE THE FOUNDATIONS WRONG THEN IT IS LIKE ONE BUILDING HIS HOUSE ON SAND.

Saban the work of the cross goes all the way back to the first one saved and this could be Adam we know Abel was saved the Bible tells us this. This is why Saban I asked you to explain Eph. 1:4-6 in some detail because it explains your points, if you do not understand those verses then I be glad to explain them for you. Jesus chose the thief on the cross, the thief said, we deserve this punishment, but this man does not meaning Jesus, then the thief said, Lord, remember me. Jesus said, THIS DAY thou shalt be with me in paradise. Jesus was drawing this thief at his last breath to salvation it had nothing to do if he was physically baptized or not, no mention of this at all. Again, Saban read the whole chapter of Hebrews 11, and you will see that they all were saved the exact same way as the N.T saints it was all by faith. I am sorry but your churches teaching or whoever sharing with you is way, way, off they cannot explain Hebrews 11 and say they were saved differently By faith Abraham offered his only Son, the whole chapter tells us it was all by the faith f Christ who alone is the author and the finisher of ones faith, Heb. 12:2 this is why one cannot lose true salvation because when God saves one He also seals that one until the very day he is redeemed. Thank you, Still looking forward to Eph. 1:4-6. just a couple of verses here to go into detail. As you can see I have answered many of your good questions thus far. Thank you Gary
Saban fan wrote:
Gary,
(Another response to #31821 - Thief on the Cross)
This individual was not saved in the same manner we are today. The New Covenant was not yet in place. The New Will could not have been in effect because Jesus had not died. Plus, no one can know unquestionably that the Thief on the Cross had not been baptized with John’s baptism.
Saban fan

Decatur, AL

#31860 Jul 12, 2013
Gary wrote:
Hi Saban:
Saban, maybe now yoy can you quote Eph. 1:4-6 and explain those verses in some detail Saban, still looking forward to your input on those verses. Thank you. Gary
<quoted text>
Eph 1:4-6

Clearly revealed in this scripture is the fact that the coming of Jesus Christ into the world for the purpose of taking out of it a people for himself and redeeming them unto eternal life was no afterthought on God's part. Before the world was ever created, the divine plan of the Son of God's visitation of the human family existed in the eternal purpose of God. That body that Christ would gather from the populations of earth is destined to receive eternal life; because what God purposes is certain of fulfillment. Such a calling and election of those "in Christ" to receive eternal glory, however, is not capricious. Every man may decide if he will or will not become a part of it and receive the intended blessing.

The thing in view in this is perfection, and it is incorrect to read it otherwise than as descriptive of the state of being "in Christ." These words apply to those whom "God chose ... in him," as stated in the first of the verse. Of course, there is the ethical intention of God to change the moral character of people in order for their lives to conform more and more to the perfect and holy standards of the will of God; but this verse is not an affirmation that Christians achieve such holiness and perfection, but a declaration that they are credited with it!

A man must not predicate his hope of eternal life upon anything connected with himself. The faith that saves is not of sinners but of Christ. Through faith, repentance and baptism "into Christ" the penitent rises to walk in newness of life (a new identity), being no longer himself, but Christ. As Paul stated it: "It is no longer I that live, but Christ liveth in me" (Gal. 3:20) Here then is the secret of that perfection required of all whom God will receive. It is the perfection of Christ.

What kind of righteous perfection, then, is in Christ? It is total and complete. Christ's life was sinless, perfect, beautiful, holy, undefiled and glorious. The righteousness of Christ is not relative but absolute like that of God; and that is the only righteousness that could ever save any person. How may sinners acquire it? How may such righteousness be accredited to mortals? Since true righteousness has never been identified with but one single, unique Person in the history of the whole world, salvation is achieved in the only way possible by identifying the sinful mortal with Christ who is righteous, and upon the prior condition of the sinner's renunciation of himself. This is accomplished by transferring the sinner "into Christ," not by transferring Christ's righteousness into sinners. The post-Reformation theory that proposes to make sinners righteous through God's transference of the righteousness of Christ into sinners is impossible of any intellectual, moral or practical acceptance. To identify the righteousness of God with any person who had not achieved it would be immoral. Calling wicked sinners righteous does not make them so (no matter what they believed or did); but the acceptance of Christ (with all members of his spiritual body) as righteous is based upon the sinless perfection of the Son of God. Paul summed it all up in one glorious word:

"That we may present every man perfect in Christ" (Col. 1:28) It is precisely that perfection that Paul had in view in the above verse where he spoke of being "holy and without blemish"!

(continued..)

BIBLE TRUE JEHOVA

Since: Sep 10

Location hidden

#31861 Jul 12, 2013
WasteWater wrote:
<quoted text>
Really? Did you realize that all translations of the Bible are subject to interpretation? Did you realize that picking parts out and combining them with other parts is a form of interpretation?
Suppose I told you there is a big black dog outside your house and nothing else. Could you conclude anything from that alone? For example, is the dog hungry? Does the dog have rabies? Is the dog friendly or viscous? Now what if it turned out the Dog was a big paper representation of a dog. Having left that out changed everything. In the end, it wasn't a dog at all, it was just a paper machete representation of a dog abandoned by it's owner. None of the questions I asked previously applied. See what I'm saying bro?
wrong and mislead post you wrote
all Bible are subject to be translated but not interpretations of all Bible,
bible as universal book does have only of Spiritual parabolic and metaforic moral language,curses and blessings
obedience and disobedience, parable understood by all who are chosen children,and literal interpretations by man who is earthly and lost,claiming Bible as book of man,myths,and not creditabe

I don't see in poems,history, relation of first disciples,birth of jesus,his reincarnation- AS RELATION FROM MYTHS

archeology prove Bible many time, prove also blind followers lead by blind leader to nowhere...

your supposition about black huge dog is without of any logical spiritual context,

my assumption about black huge sog outsied is to close own doors and windows and meditate on the little precious diamonds hided in the Bible

you can seat before window all night and shake pants because of dog
but you never going to be able to search dog heart to undertstand dog and make him your ally- Dog doesn't accept from you your own interpretations about him

also be careful man interpretation about dog can make you dog alone nothing more nothing less
Saban fan

Decatur, AL

#31862 Jul 12, 2013
Eph. 1:5-6

verse 5 says "He predestinated us ..." (KJV). "Having foreordained us ..." (English Revised Version) "He destined us in love to be his sons through Christ" (RSV)-- the meaning is not difficult. God designed the whole creation to accomplish the fulfillment of the plan which existed before creation. That is a simple definition of it. It applies to human beings, planets, galaxies, everything God ever made. Regarding people, God's purpose in creating man was that he might become a Son of God through Jesus Christ. That is the destiny God intended for every man ever born on earth. Stars and galaxies may not oppose or thwart their intended destiny; but with people, there is another factor, the freedom of the human will, enabling people to hinder or even prevent the fulfillment of God's purposes in their lives (Rom. 8:29).

God in designing the creation of man with the express purpose of making people his sons through Christ would most certainly not have created people in such a manner that the highest happiness of them could be achieved in the service of Satan rather than in the service of himself!

Adoption...is used here to describe the acceptance of sinners into the family of God. This is thought to refer to a Roman rather than a Jewish legal custom. It is only one of many words that describe the relationship Christians receive when they are converted. Thus, they are "the temple of God, the family of God, the bride of Christ, the vineyard of the Lord, the church of the firstborn, and (as here) the adoption." Each of these different terms describes some special and significant feature of the "new creation." The word adoption seems to stress the fact of the Christian's privileges in God's family being totally undeserved and unmerited, just as an abandoned and forsaken child may be taken into a family by adoption, such a legal action bestowing upon the child all of the rights and privileges of that family without regard whatever to any merit of the child. Also, there is another suggestion in the fact of an adopted child's being of a different kind (that is, a different family) from that into which it is adopted. A glimpse of primal truth is here. Adam was created in God's image; but he begat a son "in his own image" at a time after he had become an outright servant of the devil. The contamination that has come down from that disaster is extensive and fundamental. Although any such thing as total hereditary depravity is nothing but a theologian's nightmare, those unregenerated "Adamites" who descended from the great progenitor are essentially bastards with regard to God's family, until they shall be "born again." The term, meaning the same thing, is here "adoption."

The Father is the source of blessing here, the Son and then the Holy Spirit are also mentioned this way later in the chapter. God's action in making people accepted is not a continuing operation. Sinners are not acted upon continually and individually as they may believe in Christ; the great enabling charter of all human redemption has already been granted, sealed and delivered. This tremendous reservoir of divine grace has already been given "in the Beloved," that is, "in Christ." Through the gospel, people are called to believe the truth and to be baptized into Christ; and the human response to that invitation determines destiny. Additionally, this response to the gospel cannot be separated from the church. Once one obeys the gospel they are a member of the body, a citizen of the Kingdom and a member of Christ's church; a spiritual body.

BIBLE TRUE JEHOVA

Since: Sep 10

Location hidden

#31863 Jul 12, 2013
WasteWater wrote:
<quoted text>
Yes and no. Man may be inspired to very high thoughts, even thoughts of God as he imagines God too be.
Think about it. It is impossible to know God yet it is possible to experience God and God's grace. Right?
Peace be with you friend.
high thoughts and high imaginations are not spiritual or divine inspirations
That way we don't need visible evidences from beyond,

Gods grace experience is strick personal,and not visible to others Rom 8;16-17.Ezek 36;24-28

if you are out of grace, you will be not able to understand my thinking,my inspirations,spiritual and divine experiences,
obedience and fear is first road to be wise,
begining of wisdom is to start fear God
Saban fan

Decatur, AL

#31864 Jul 12, 2013
Gary wrote:
Hi Saban:
Saban where do we read that there is two different salvations in the Bible verses and chapter please. The fact is there was always just one salvation from the old to the new it was from faith to faith the Bible declares. Read Hebrews 11.
I QUOTED THIS MANY TIMES BEFORE SHOWING WITHOUT DOUBT THAT THE OLD AND NEW COVEANTS WERE SAVED THE SAME WAY AND THAT WAS ALWAYS BY THE FAITH OF CHRIST BECAUSE HE IS CALLED THE AUTHOR AND FINISHER OF OUR FAITH. HEB. 12:2. THIS IS WHY SABAN WHEN YOU MAKE A STRONG REMARK AS THE ONE YOU DID YOU MUST BACK IT UP WITH MANY VERSES TO PROVE YOUR POINT IF NOT YOU MAY BE OFF ON THE MOST IMPORTANT SUBJECT AND THAT IS, THE VERY NAURE OF SALVATION IF WE HAVE THE FOUNDATIONS WRONG THEN IT IS LIKE ONE BUILDING HIS HOUSE ON SAND.
Saban the work of the cross goes all the way back to the first one saved and this could be Adam we know Abel was saved the Bible tells us this. This is why Saban I asked you to explain Eph. 1:4-6 in some detail because it explains your points, if you do not understand those verses then I be glad to explain them for you. Jesus chose the thief on the cross, the thief said, we deserve this punishment, but this man does not meaning Jesus, then the thief said, Lord, remember me. Jesus said, THIS DAY thou shalt be with me in paradise. Jesus was drawing this thief at his last breath to salvation it had nothing to do if he was physically baptized or not, no mention of this at all. Again, Saban read the whole chapter of Hebrews 11, and you will see that they all were saved the exact same way as the N.T saints it was all by faith. I am sorry but your churches teaching or whoever sharing with you is way, way, off they cannot explain Hebrews 11 and say they were saved differently By faith Abraham offered his only Son, the whole chapter tells us it was all by the faith f Christ who alone is the author and the finisher of ones faith, Heb. 12:2 this is why one cannot lose true salvation because when God saves one He also seals that one until the very day he is redeemed. Thank you, Still looking forward to Eph. 1:4-6. just a couple of verses here to go into detail. As you can see I have answered many of your good questions thus far. Thank you Gary
<quoted text>
I never said there were two different Salvations. I did mention the two different covenants. I'm sure we could agree that there were many differences between two. One of those differences would be the manner within which we enter the church/kingdom. The Thief on the cross lived under the old law and as such was not subject to baptism to become a Christian as Peter began to preach several weeks later during Pentecost, and the other Apostles and disciples taught from that point on...

I was not "all by faith" as you've mentioned. Even the demons believed, right? The only location we find the words "faith only" in the Bible is in James 2:24 "Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only."

Speaking of Hebrews 11, and the teaching I've received being "way, way off", I'd ask you to sincerely consider this next point:

In each case, BY FAITH.....
(BIG actions followed!!!- as James 2:24 points out for us).

For example, consider Noah. Had he not OBEYED and FOLLOWED GOD's INSTRUCTIONS TO THE 'T' he would not have been saved from the flood. It was being in the ark (which is a foreshadowing of Christ or the church today) that saved Noah and his family. OBEDIENT faith........in EVERY example we read in Heb. 11.

That is what I've been taught.

"way, way off" you say?
Gary

Buffalo, NY

#31865 Jul 12, 2013
Hi Saban:

As you said it would be better to stay on a few verses or one topic at a time here. I am sorry I have no room to give much input concerning those great verses you have shares so I will go into one at a time to show you that man kind has for sure no free will to chose God on his terms in fact it is impossible because Jesus said, No man CAN COME TO ME unless the Father which sent me draws him. Now this is just a biblical fact out of many more verses that proves that you cannot chose Jesus He is the one that must chose you, John 15:16. Saban, I will show you just how to explain a few verses as the one I asked you in, Eph. 1:4-6, this is a good example they way you explain a few verses in detail.

You quoted these verses so let me touch on them to show you without doubt this has nothing to do with believers at all this is a fact and I will be glad to show you.

1- When they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ,,,"

Here many hear the true gospel and turn from it God tells us that many are called but few are chosen this is just a fact we must deal with that is, many hear the gospel call and like the sower of the seed they fall away because it was never planted on good soil it never became real by the power of the word and the Spirit so many hear the gospel call and seem to go along for awhile but when times get hard they fall away this does not mean they were ever saved or lost there salvation no way God seals the person whom He truly saves and redeems them until He calls them home this is a biblical fact we cannot deny.

2- For it would have better for them to not know the way of righteousness than after to turn away back from the holy commandments that was once delivered to them,,,"

God tells us in Matthew 23 to the Scribes and Pharisses that those were the blind leaders of the blind, and Jesus goes on and says greater is your damnation. Why is this? The word goes on and says those that knew the masters will and did it not will be beaten with many stripes but those that did not will be beaten with few stripes. So for much is given much is required. So when we hear the true gospel and turn from it then it would have been better if you have not ever heard the true gospel this shows us the power of the word the gospel.

3- Now the last part of this verse in 2 Peter 22 tells us without doubt these were never believers. why do I say this? Let us read the conclusion of the matter

,,, It has happened unto them according to the true proverb. The DOG turning again unto his own vomit, and the sow that has washed to it;s wallowing in the mire.

What are these people referred to? Yes, Dogs and swine they are both unclean the believers are never referred to as dogs or swine these are pictures of the unsaved that never were saved, they did not endure unto the end showing they were never truly saved just like many today they last for awhile and begins to fall away these are pictures of the unsaved as [dogs] and [swine] the believers are referred to as,[sheep] Jesus said, My sheep HEAR my voice and they follow me wherever I go. You see the true sheep never becomes dogs or swine. Saban, I do not know who your coping this stuff from but I can say they are dead wrong. Thank you. Gary
Saban fan wrote:
Gary,
(another response to #31821 - Free will / Falling away
2 Peter 2:20-22

20 For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein and overcome, the last state is become worse with them than the first.
21 For it were better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after knowing it, to turn back from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
22 It has happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog turning to his own vomit again, and the sow that had washed to wallowing in the mire.
.
Gary

Buffalo, NY

#31866 Jul 12, 2013
Hi Saban:

I am sorry but you never even quoted the verses in, Eph. 1:4-6 I asked you maybe you can quote those verses and go into detail verse upon verse you did not explain those verses as they stand at all I am sorry to say. Look at the difference when I explained in detail 2 Peter 2:20-22, to you. I went step by step verse by verse I did not give some kind of overview what I thought but went into some detail why they were never believers or [sheep] they were always dogs and swine. Maybe you can try again. hank you. Gary
Saban fan wrote:
<quoted text>
Eph 1:4-6
Clearly revealed in this scripture is the fact that the coming of Jesus Christ into the world for the purpose of taking out of it a people for himself and redeeming them unto eternal life was no afterthought on God's part. Before the world was ever created, the divine plan of the Son of God's visitation of the human family existed in the eternal purpose of God. That body that Christ would gather from the populations of earth is destined to receive eternal life; because what God purposes is certain of fulfillment. Such a calling and election of those "in Christ" to receive eternal glory, however, is not capricious. Every man may decide if he will or will not become a part of it and receive the intended blessing.
The thing in view in this is perfection, and it is incorrect to read it otherwise than as descriptive of the state of being "in Christ." These words apply to those whom "God chose ... in him," as stated in the first of the verse. Of course, there is the ethical intention of God to change the moral character of people in order for their lives to conform more and more to the perfect and holy standards of the will of God; but this verse is not an affirmation that Christians achieve such holiness and perfection, but a declaration that they are credited with it!
A man must not predicate his hope of eternal life upon anything connected with himself. The faith that saves is not of sinners but of Christ. Through faith, repentance and baptism "into Christ" the penitent rises to walk in newness of life (a new identity), being no longer himself, but Christ. As Paul stated it: "It is no longer I that live, but Christ liveth in me" (Gal. 3:20) Here then is the secret of that perfection required of all whom God will receive. It is the perfection of Christ.
What kind of righteous perfection, then, is in Christ? It is total and complete. Christ's life was sinless, perfect, beautiful, holy, undefiled and glorious. The righteousness of Christ is not relative but absolute like that of God; and that is the only righteousness that could ever save any person. How may sinners acquire it? How may such righteousness be accredited to mortals? Since true righteousness has never been identified with but one single, unique Person in the history of the whole world, salvation is achieved in the only way possible by identifying the sinful mortal with Christ who is righteous, and upon the prior condition of the sinner's renunciation of himself. This is accomplished by transferring the sinner "into Christ," not by transferring Christ's righteousness into sinners. The post-Reformation theory that proposes to make sinners righteous through God's transference of the righteousness of Christ into sinners is impossible of any intellectual, moral or practical acceptance. To identify the righteousness of God with any person who had not achieved it would be immoral. Calling wicked sinners righteous does not make them so (no matter what they believed or did); but the acceptance of Christ (with all members of his spiritual body) as righteous is based upon the sinless perfection of the Son of God. Paul summed it all up in one glorious word:
"That we may present every man perfect in Christ" (Col. 1:28) It is precisely that perfection that Paul had in view in the above verse where he spoke of being "holy and without blemish"!
(continued..)

Since: Aug 11

Location hidden

#31867 Jul 12, 2013
BIBLE TRUE JEHOVA wrote:
<quoted text>
wrong and mislead post you wrote
all Bible are subject to be translated but not interpretations of all Bible,
bible as universal book does have only of Spiritual parabolic and metaforic moral language,curses and blessings
obedience and disobedience, parable understood by all who are chosen children,and literal interpretations by man who is earthly and lost,claiming Bible as book of man,myths,and not creditabe
I don't see in poems,history, relation of first disciples,birth of jesus,his reincarnation- AS RELATION FROM MYTHS
archeology prove Bible many time, prove also blind followers lead by blind leader to nowhere...
your supposition about black huge dog is without of any logical spiritual context,
my assumption about black huge sog outsied is to close own doors and windows and meditate on the little precious diamonds hided in the Bible
you can seat before window all night and shake pants because of dog
but you never going to be able to search dog heart to undertstand dog and make him your ally- Dog doesn't accept from you your own interpretations about him
also be careful man interpretation about dog can make you dog alone nothing more nothing less
I might as well be talking to the wall.

Hello walls. How are you doing today?

Since: Aug 11

Location hidden

#31868 Jul 12, 2013
BIBLE TRUE JEHOVA wrote:
<quoted text>
high thoughts and high imaginations are not spiritual or divine inspirations
That way we don't need visible evidences from beyond,
Gods grace experience is strick personal,and not visible to others Rom 8;16-17.Ezek 36;24-28
if you are out of grace, you will be not able to understand my thinking,my inspirations,spiritual and divine experiences,
obedience and fear is first road to be wise,
begining of wisdom is to start fear God
One cannot be out of grace with God. That is impossible.
Gary

Buffalo, NY

#31869 Jul 12, 2013
Hi Saban:

You said and I quote from 31849, concerning the thief on the cross.

"This individual WAS NOT SAVED THE SAME MANNER WE ARE TODAY,,"

Saban, if the thief was not saved in the same manner as we are saved today then what manner was he saved in?

If he was saved in another manner your implying he was saved in a different way as by faith in Christ this is how all are saved Saban.
Saban fan wrote:
<quoted text>
I never said there were two different Salvations. I did mention the two different covenants. I'm sure we could agree that there were many differences between two. One of those differences would be the manner within which we enter the church/kingdom. The Thief on the cross lived under the old law and as such was not subject to baptism to become a Christian as Peter began to preach several weeks later during Pentecost, and the other Apostles and disciples taught from that point on...
I was not "all by faith" as you've mentioned. Even the demons believed, right? The only location we find the words "faith only" in the Bible is in James 2:24 "Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only."
Speaking of Hebrews 11, and the teaching I've received being "way, way off", I'd ask you to sincerely consider this next point:
In each case, BY FAITH.....
(BIG actions followed!!!- as James 2:24 points out for us).
For example, consider Noah. Had he not OBEYED and FOLLOWED GOD's INSTRUCTIONS TO THE 'T' he would not have been saved from the flood. It was being in the ark (which is a foreshadowing of Christ or the church today) that saved Noah and his family. OBEDIENT faith........in EVERY example we read in Heb. 11.
That is what I've been taught.
"way, way off" you say?
Gary

Buffalo, NY

#31870 Jul 12, 2013
Hi Saban:

I am sorry I believe your taking steps way out side the scriptures and misapplying it as for example you said below here,, even the demons believed right?

Saban, this does not mean they were saved by no means the Bible tells us that the demons believe and they even trembled because they know all this is true what God says, remember, they were there before Adam. However, they have no hope of ever being saved they know God is real they have been there when they were in heaven and kicked out so they do not have saving faith by the word and the Spirit they believe because they have been there but this does not mean they are saved.

Now you keep mentioning physical water baptized do you think this saves a person by getting dunked in some mere hto water? Saban, all this leads up to is a works gospel the Greek rendering for baptism means to wash, to cleanse and to purify and how does that take place with some literal water? No this is just a sign it is not the substance the baptism that ones needs to be saved from or washed from is by the power of the word and the Spirit.

"That He might sanctify and CLEANSE IT WITH THE WASHING OF THE WATER BY THE WORD. Eph. 5:26

IN JOHN 4 THE WOMAN AT THE WELL WHEN JESUS TOLD THE WOMAN AT THE WELL I WILL GIVE YOU LIVING WATER THAT YOU WILL NEVER THIRIST AGAIN. DO YOU THINK JESUS WAS TALKING ABOUT WATER BAPTISIM?

When Jesus came to WASH Peter's feet and Peter said no Lord, Jesus said, if I do not wash you will not be clean. Was Jesus referring to baptism? No, we are washed or made clean by the water of the gospel and by the Spirit of God. Physical Baptism has nothing to do with salvation it is all by grace through faith least any man should boast.

Saban, the fact is,[Faith] is an action word and all the action comes from God this is why I keep quoting that Jesus is the author and finisher of our faith, Heb. 12:2. All the action comes from the work of the Lord not mere sinful man. One of Jesus names in Rev, Is called faithful and true. We are saved by God's grace through His faith not of works least any man should boast. However, sad to say sinful man wants to boast in their man made do it your self have it your way works gospel that is not the true gospel this is why many believe one can lose eternal salvation they have no clue what [eternal] even means. Those who have Christ has [past tense] already has eternal life. These things you have to come to grips with because they are foundational. Who's faith saves one?

"Knowing that a man is NOT justified by the works of the law, but by THE FAITH OF JESUS CHRIST,," Gal. 2:16
Saban fan wrote:
<quoted text>
I never said there were two different Salvations. I did mention the two different covenants. I'm sure we could agree that there were many differences between two. One of those differences would be the manner within which we enter the church/kingdom. The Thief on the cross lived under the old law and as such was not subject to baptism to become a Christian as Peter began to preach several weeks later during Pentecost, and the other Apostles and disciples taught from that point on...
I was not "all by faith" as you've mentioned. Even the demons believed, right? The only location we find the words "faith only" in the Bible is in James 2:24 "Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only."
Speaking of Hebrews 11, and the teaching I've received being "way, way off", I'd ask you to sincerely consider this next point:
In each case, BY FAITH.....
(BIG actions followed!!!- as James 2:24 points out for us).
For example, consider Noah. Had he not OBEYED and FOLLOWED GOD's INSTRUCTIONS TO THE 'T' he would not have been saved from the flood. It was being in the ark (which is a foreshadowing of Christ or the church today) that saved Noah and his family. OBEDIENT faith........in EVERY example we read in Heb. 11.
That is what I've been taught.
"way, way off" you say?
Gary

Buffalo, NY

#31871 Jul 12, 2013
Hi Saban:

I read this and I really get a sense that all that your doing here below is just coping this stuff out of some other man's book I can tell by the style and the flow of the writing. Who ever wrote this they are not even close in explaining Eph. 1:4-6. I will help Lord willing to show you just from the word for word what God is saying in His word. Gary
Saban fan wrote:
Eph. 1:5-6
verse 5 says "He predestinated us ..." (KJV). "Having foreordained us ..." (English Revised Version) "He destined us in love to be his sons through Christ" (RSV)-- the meaning is not difficult. God designed the whole creation to accomplish the fulfillment of the plan which existed before creation. That is a simple definition of it. It applies to human beings, planets, galaxies, everything God ever made. Regarding people, God's purpose in creating man was that he might become a Son of God through Jesus Christ. That is the destiny God intended for every man ever born on earth. Stars and galaxies may not oppose or thwart their intended destiny; but with people, there is another factor, the freedom of the human will, enabling people to hinder or even prevent the fulfillment of God's purposes in their lives (Rom. 8:29).
God in designing the creation of man with the express purpose of making people his sons through Christ would most certainly not have created people in such a manner that the highest happiness of them could be achieved in the service of Satan rather than in the service of himself!
Adoption...is used here to describe the acceptance of sinners into the family of God. This is thought to refer to a Roman rather than a Jewish legal custom. It is only one of many words that describe the relationship Christians receive when they are converted. Thus, they are "the temple of God, the family of God, the bride of Christ, the vineyard of the Lord, the church of the firstborn, and (as here) the adoption." Each of these different terms describes some special and significant feature of the "new creation." The word adoption seems to stress the fact of the Christian's privileges in God's family being totally undeserved and unmerited, just as an abandoned and forsaken child may be taken into a family by adoption, such a legal action bestowing upon the child all of the rights and privileges of that family without regard whatever to any merit of the child. Also, there is another suggestion in the fact of an adopted child's being of a different kind (that is, a different family) from that into which it is adopted. A glimpse of primal truth is here. Adam was created in God's image; but he begat a son "in his own image" at a time after he had become an outright servant of the devil. The contamination that has come down from that disaster is extensive and fundamental. Although any such thing as total hereditary depravity is nothing but a theologian's nightmare, those unregenerated "Adamites" who descended from the great progenitor are essentially bastards with regard to God's family, until they shall be "born again." The term, meaning the same thing, is here "adoption."
The Father is the source of blessing here, the Son and then the Holy Spirit are also mentioned this way later in the chapter. God's action in making people accepted is not a continuing operation. Sinners are not acted upon continually and individually as they may believe in Christ; the great enabling charter of all human redemption has already been granted, sealed and delivered. This tremendous reservoir of divine grace has already been given "in the Beloved," that is, "in Christ." Through the gospel, people are called to believe the truth and to be baptized into Christ; and the human response to that invitation determines destiny. Additionally, this response to the gospel cannot be separated from the church. Once one obeys the gospel they are a member of the body, a citizen of the Kingdom and a member of Christ's church; a spiritual body.

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