What Your Church Won't Tell You by Da...

“Become Love!”

Since: Jan 09

Nowhere/Now here

#30380 Mar 19, 2013
@Gary

Hebrews 6:1-8
Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
And this will we do, if God permit.
For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:
But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

This portion of Hebrews 6 is in regards to those that were blessed with the Holy Spirit. That's why it becomes impossible for them to repent. These fell away while blessed with the Holy Spirit. Therefore, they blasphemed the Holy Spirit. It's a must we keep in mind that these were...

1)once enlightened, they

2) tasted of the heavenly gift, they were

3) made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
they

4) tasted the good word of God, and

5) the powers of the world to come.

And to acknowledge that these were "once enlightened," we must come to understand what it was they were "once enlightened" to. These were "once enlightened" to...

1) the foundation of repentance from dead works,

2) faith toward God,

3) the doctrine of baptisms,

4) the laying on of hands,

5) the resurrection of the dead, and

6) eternal judgment.

None should have the audacity to even think that these were not believers and/or saved. Would the most High bless anyone with the Holy Spirit that wasn't worthy to partake of the Holy Spirit? But, this is why it says that it's impossible, if they shall fall away, to renew them AGAIN unto repentance. This proves that at one point in time, they repented. And they had to have become a believer in order for them to "fall away," or what was it they fell away from?

Hebrews 10:26-31
For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

This portion of Hebrews 10 is in regards to the average believer and not those that were blessed with the Holy Spirit. These "received the knowledge of the truth." The warning, though, is about the danger of returning to willful sin. The penalty is worse for those that sin willfully under the blood-covenant of our anointed Savior than for those that sinned willfully under the blood-covenant given to Moses. The difference is, though, that these can be renewed unto repentance. Nothing says it's impossible to renew these unto repentance. And the reason is because these weren't blessed with the power of the Holy Spirit.

And that's the difference between those of Hebrews 6 and those of Hebrews 10. What we must remember, too, is that this letter was written to believers and not just to the average passer-by. The author was, surely, covering all bases for all believers.

“Become Love!”

Since: Jan 09

Nowhere/Now here

#30381 Mar 19, 2013
WasteWater wrote:
Hello walls. I think I'll just talk to my walls.
Don't feel left out, or ignored. You know... you can actually help us out by becoming involved in the discussion between Gary and myself. It would be most profitable to have an unbiased opinion present. If you don't mind, that is.

Since: Aug 11

Location hidden

#30382 Mar 19, 2013
Brother Lee Love wrote:
<quoted text>Don't feel left out, or ignored. You know... you can actually help us out by becoming involved in the discussion between Gary and myself. It would be most profitable to have an unbiased opinion present. If you don't mind, that is.
I was trying to move a little into the compassion parts since over 90% of what the Gospels say addresses sins against compassion. One of my observations about this dialogue so far seems that both of you are trying to impress one another with your ability to use the Bible to prove that the Bible is the Word of God and that you are privy to the hidden message.(All due respects, no offense meant.) It seems the actual underling message of compassion gets lost when this happens.

Yes I would love to hear thoughts on this matter.

“Become Love!”

Since: Jan 09

Nowhere/Now here

#30383 Mar 19, 2013
@Gary

Going over our posts, I noticed that you had said, "You see when we just issolate a verse here or there and not allow the whole Bible to bear weight on this conclusion you can be in error listen to the rest of the conclusion of this matter."

With all due respect, Gary, but this is erroneous, because it seems as if you're trying to say that your following quote is directly linked to either, Hebrews 6, or Hebrews 10, when in fact, it's not. Your quote was 2Peter 2:20-22, which you did include at the end of the quote. This says...

"For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire."

Now, of course, similarities exist, as Peter, too, was referring to those that had once believed, but then, fell away. What we must not overlook, or ignore, is the fact that even these, at one point in time, "escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ." Now, if we liken these "pollutions of the world" to be trespasses and sins that causes us to be spiritually dead, then we can most easily conclude that these escaped death. These, "through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour," were made alive! These, though, became "AGAIN entangled therein, and "overcome." These turned "from the holy commandment delivered unto them." Common sense dictates to us that none can become "AGAIN entangled therein" in "the pollutions of the world" without first escaping "the pollutions of the world," just as it's written. Nor, can any turn "from the holy commandment delivered unto them" without first turning to the holy commandment.

Your issue is that Peter referred to Proverbs 26:11 which uses the term "dog" while including the term "sow." And you feel that believers are never, or should never be, associated with such beasts. And you might be right, but these are only examples, Gary, just like when believers are called "sheep." These examples are to propose an association with a preferred attitude and personality. Sheep, accordingly, are faithful followers of their shepherd and none else. These in Peter's example that became "AGAIN entangled therein, and overcome" and turned "from the holy commandment delivered unto them" showed themselves to be more like dogs and sows than sheep. But, what of these examples, though? Did not our anointed Savior use such examples when he said, "Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves"? Now, when he said to be "wise as serpents," was he telling us to be wise like Satan? Is not Satan called the "old serpent" (Rev 12:9, 20:2)? Did he not call the scribes and Pharisees "serpents" (Matt 23:33)? So, if we were to disassociate ourselves with every beast used as a negative example, wouldn't it make sense to say that our anointed Savior would have avoided the serpent as an example, too? Consider the following, please and if you will.

When the Canaanite woman requested that our anointed Savior heal her daughter, he said, "It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs (Matt 15:26)." She replied, "Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table (Matt 15:27)." What happened next, Gary? Our anointed Savior, first, said, "O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt (Matt 15:28a). And then, "her daughter was made whole from that very hour (Matthew 15:28b)."

Now, yes. He called her a "dog." And she complied. But, in the end, her request was granted her.

Since: Aug 11

Location hidden

#30384 Mar 19, 2013
Brother Lee Love wrote:
@Gary
Going over our posts, I noticed that you had said, "You see when we just issolate a verse here or there and not allow the whole Bible to bear weight on this conclusion you can be in error listen to the rest of the conclusion of this matter."
With all due respect, Gary, but this is erroneous, because it seems a....e again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire."
Now, of course, similarities exist, as Peter, too, was referring to those that had once believed, but then, fell away. What we must not overlook, or ignore, is the fact that even these, at one point in time, "escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ." Now, if we liken these "pollutions of the world" to be trespasses and sins that causes us to be spiritually dead, then we can most easily conclude that these escaped death. These, "through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour," were made alive! These, though, became "AGAIN entangled therein, and "overcome." These turned "from the holy commandment delivered unto them." Common sense dictates to us that none can become "AGAIN entangled therein" in "the pollutions of the world" without first escaping "the pollutions of the world," just as it's written. Nor, can any turn "from the holy commandment delivered unto them" without first turning to the holy commandment.
Your issue is that Peter referred to Proverbs 26:11 which uses the term "dog" while including the term "sow." And you feel that believers are never, or should never be, associated with such beasts. And you might be right, but these are only examples, Gary, just like when believers are called "sheep." These examples are to propose an association with a preferred attitude and personality. Sheep, accordingly, are faithful followers of their shepherd and none else. These in Peter's example that became "AGAIN entangled therein, and overcome" and turned "from the holy commandment delivered unto them" showed themselves to be more like dogs and sows than sheep. But, what of these examples, though? Did not our anointed Savior use such examples when he said, "Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves"? Now, when he said to be "wise as serpents," was he telling us to be wise like Satan? Is not Satan called the "old serpent" (Rev 12:9, 20:2)? Did he not call the scribes and Pharisees "serpents" (Matt 23:33)? So, if we were to disassociate ourselves with every beast used as a negative example, wouldn't it make sense to say that our anointed Savior would have avoided the serpent as an example, too? Consider the following, please and if you will.
When the Canaanite woman requested that our anointed Savior heal her daughter, he said, "It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs (Matt 15:26)." She replied, "Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table (Matt 15:27)." What happened next, Gary? Our anointed Savior, first, said, "O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt (Matt 15:28a). And then, "her daughter was made whole from that very hour (Matthew 15:28b)."
Now, yes. He called her a "dog." And she complied. But, in the end, her request was granted her.
An act of compassion correct?

Thank you.

“Become Love!”

Since: Jan 09

Nowhere/Now here

#30385 Mar 19, 2013
WasteWater wrote:
I was trying to move a little into the compassion parts since over 90% of what the Gospels say addresses sins against compassion. One of my observations about this dialogue so far seems that both of you are trying to impress one another with your ability to use the Bible to prove that the Bible is the Word of God and that you are privy to the hidden message.(All due respects, no offense meant.) It seems the actual underling message of compassion gets lost when this happens.
Yes I would love to hear thoughts on this matter.
First, no offense taken. You are entitled to your own opinion, and I respect that. And as to your opinion...

The fact is, what I'm trying to show Gary are the differences between his beliefs and that which the bible teaches. As far as Gary is concerned, all that come to believe in our Godhead, so forth and so on, are predetermined, predestined, and chosen, to live forever in the coming kingdom. This would mean, then, that those that don't come to believe in our Godhead, so forth and so on, are predetermined, predestined, and chosen, to be forever destroyed by means of the lake of fire. And as I said before, I can only assume that the foundation of this most erroneous belief derives from a gross misunderstanding of Romans 9 (among others, maybe). What has to be proven is that not all that come to believe in our Godhead, so forth and so on, are predetermined, predestined, and chosen. Only the vocation of the elect is. And not every believer will serve in the vocation of the elect. As I said in a previous post; "All the elect are believers, but not all believers are the elect."

The second issue is that Gary believes that we have no control over anything that takes place in our lives, whether thoughts, actions, reactions, or speech. According to Gary, the very act of repentance is not a personal decision made, but a provocation of "God". And such beliefs are founded on the belief that all that come to believe in our Godhead, so forth and so on, are predetermined, predestined, and chosen. Conclusively, Gary doesn't believe in free-will. And I believe this is most erroneous. For starters, we're told the importance and gravity of genuineness and sincerity in our walk with our Godhead. The issue arises, then, that if "God" controls even the decision to repent, then this eliminates every notion of genuineness and sincerity, altogether. And as you've, most likely, come to imagine by now, such beliefs cause questions and doubt in regards to compassion, as well.

I understand your point. And I believe it's good that you've brought up the subject of compassion. When it comes to compassion, we can be sure that Gary will rely on and quote a verse from Romans 9 to prove his beliefs accurate. Before I quote the verse, remember that I mentioned Romans 9 in this very post and how I believe that Gary's understanding of Romans 9 is most erroneous. Anyway, Romans 9:15 says, "For [God] saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion." Isolated, this does seem to coincide with Gary's beliefs. But, when compared to all else written, the intended meaning becomes evident.

For your knowledge, this discussion (between Gary and myself) is an old one. Gary might have changed his beliefs when it comes to trying to find out the actual moment that our anointed Savior is going to return, but I haven't noticed much change in anything else, or any change in his beliefs, at all, other than in the advent-time. But, to his credit, we haven't really discussed much else, so...

“Become Love!”

Since: Jan 09

Nowhere/Now here

#30386 Mar 19, 2013
WasteWater wrote:
An act of compassion correct?
Thank you.
Very correct. You're welcome and thank you!

“Become Love!”

Since: Jan 09

Nowhere/Now here

#30387 Mar 19, 2013
@Gary

Isaiah 64:6
But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

I see this verse quoted often and misinterpreted just as often. And that troubles me. Before I begin, though, allow me to share the following. And with all the reasoning you can muster, try to understand-- not only the point I'm making-- but the point Isaiah was making, too, and how what Haggai wrote coincides.

Haggai 2:11-14
Thus saith Yahoweh of hosts; Ask now the priests concerning the law, saying,
If one bear holy flesh in the skirt of his garment, and with his skirt do touch bread, or pottage, or wine, or oil, or any meat, shall it be holy? And the priests answered and said, No.
Then said Haggai, If one that is unclean by a dead body touch any of these, shall it be unclean? And the priests answered and said, It shall be unclean.
Then answered Haggai, and said, So is this people, and so is this nation before me, saith Yahoweh; and so is every work of their hands; and that which they offer there is unclean.

At this point in time, the southern kingdom was captive in Babylon. And at this point in time, many of Israel were, rather than repenting and returning to Father, accepting Babylonian culture and their many forms of worship to their many gods. And this further displeased not only Father, but the prophets, too. The reason Israel was in Babylon, to begin with, was because of their sins, as it was! And this is why Isaiah wrote what he did against the captured nation. But, what was Isaiah's point?

Proverb 21:27 says, "The sacrifice of the wicked is abomination: how much more, when he bringeth it with a wicked mind?" This coincides with what the prophet Haggai wrote. Again, he wrote, "Then said Haggai, If one that is unclean by a dead body touch any of these, shall it be unclean? And the priests answered and said, It shall be unclean. Then answered Haggai, and said, So is this people, and so is this nation before me, saith Yahoweh; and so is every work of their hands; and that which they offer there is unclean."

To the most High, there are two types of sinner. One is the sinner that's considered worthy of forgiveness, for they sin "through ignorance," as it's written. The other is the sinner that sins presumptuously. So, considering what I've already shared, how that Israel further angered "God" by accepting Babylonian customs and the worshiping of their gods, this is why the righteousness of Israel was as filthy rags. Whatsoever they did that could be considered righteous was, for the most part, to honor whatever false-god they worshiped. And as they continued in their unrighteousness, their prayers became abominable, too. As it's written, "The sacrifice of the wicked is an abomination to Yahoweh (Pro 15:8)." In concordance, we're instructed to "offer the sacrifice of praise to God continually, that is, the fruit of our lips giving thanks to his name."

In conclusion, Isaiah was referring to the present condition of the nation of Israel at that time and not every believer, especially those of us during these present times. If he was, then the prophet John would have contradicted Isaiah, perhaps blatantly even. John wrote, "Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous (1John 3:7)."

Take note that John wrote, "even as he is righteous." The "he" in this verse is our anointed Savior, himself. Surely, John wasn't saying that our "filthy-rags righteousness" is like our anointed Savior's "filthy-rags righteousness."

Again, John wrote, "Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous (1John 3:7)."
Gary

Buffalo, NY

#30388 Mar 19, 2013
Hi Lee:

Yes, two classes of sinners I will explain in more detail in next post no room sorry. Gary
Brother Lee Love wrote:
@Gary
Isaiah 64:6
But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.
I see this verse quoted often and misinterpreted just as often. And that troubles me. Before I begin, though, allow me to share the following. And with all the reasoning you can muster, try to understand-- not only the point I'm making-- but the point Isaiah was making, too, and how what Haggai wrote coincides.
Haggai 2:11-14
Thus saith Yahoweh of hosts; Ask now the priests concerning the law, saying,
If one bear holy flesh in the skirt of his garment, and with his skirt do touch bread, or pottage, or wine, or oil, or any meat, shall it be holy? And the priests answered and said, No.
Then said Haggai, If one that is unclean by a dead body touch any of these, shall it be unclean? And the priests answered and said, It shall be unclean.
Then answered Haggai, and said, So is this people, and so is this nation before me, saith Yahoweh; and so is every work of their hands; and that which they offer there is unclean.
At this point in time, the southern kingdom was captive in Babylon. And at this point in time, many of Israel were, rather than repenting and returning to Father, accepting Babylonian culture and their many forms of worship to their many gods. And this further displeased not only Father, but the prophets, too. The reason Israel was in Babylon, to begin with, was because of their sins, as it was! And this is why Isaiah wrote what he did against the captured nation. But, what was Isaiah's point?
Proverb 21:27 says, "The sacrifice of the wicked is abomination: how much more, when he bringeth it with a wicked mind?" This coincides with what the prophet Haggai wrote. Again, he wrote, "Then said Haggai, If one that is unclean by a dead body touch any of these, shall it be unclean? And the priests answered and said, It shall be unclean. Then answered Haggai, and said, So is this people, and so is this nation before me, saith Yahoweh; and so is every work of their hands; and that which they offer there is unclean."
To the most High, there are two types of sinner. One is the sinner that's considered worthy of forgiveness, for they sin "through ignorance," as it's written. The other is the sinner that sins presumptuously. So, considering what I've already shared, how that Israel further angered "God" by accepting Babylonian customs and the worshiping of their gods, this is why the righteousness of Israel was as filthy rags. Whatsoever they did that could be considered righteous was, for the most part, to honor whatever false-god they worshiped. And as they continued in their unrighteousness, their prayers became abominable, too. As it's written, "The sacrifice of the wicked is an abomination to Yahoweh (Pro 15:8)." In concordance, we're instructed to "offer the sacrifice of praise to God continually, that is, the fruit of our lips giving thanks to his name."
In conclusion, Isaiah was referring to the present condition of the nation of Israel at that time and not every believer, especially those of us during these present times. If he was, then the prophet John would have contradicted Isaiah, perhaps blatantly even. John wrote, "Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous (1John 3:7)."
Take note that John wrote, "even as he is righteous." The "he" in this verse is our anointed Savior, himself. Surely, John wasn't saying that our "filthy-rags righteousness" is like our anointed Savior's "filthy-rags righteousness."
Again, John wrote, "Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous (1John 3:7)."

“Become Love!”

Since: Jan 09

Nowhere/Now here

#30389 Mar 19, 2013
1John 3:7

King James Bible--
Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

New International Version--
Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. The one who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous.

New Living Translation--
Dear children, don't let anyone deceive you about this: When people do what is right, it shows that they are righteous, even as Christ is righteous.

English Standard Version--
Little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous, as he is righteous.

New American Standard Bible--
Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous.

Holman Christian Standard Bible--
Little children, let no one deceive you! The one who does what is right is righteous, just as He is righteous.

International Standard Version--
Little children, don't let anyone deceive you. The person who practices righteousness is righteous, just as the Messiah is righteous.

NET Bible--
Little children, let no one deceive you: The one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as Jesus is righteous.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English--
Children, let no one deceive you; he who does righteousness is righteous even as The Messiah also is righteous.

GOD'S WORD Translation--
Dear children, don't let anyone deceive you. Whoever does what God approves of has God's approval as Christ has God's approval.

American Standard Version--
My little children, let no man lead you astray: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

Douay-Rheims Bible--
Little children, let no man deceive you. He that doth justice is just, even as he is just.

Darby Bible Translation
Children, let no man lead you astray; he that practises righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

“Become Love!”

Since: Jan 09

Nowhere/Now here

#30390 Mar 19, 2013
English Revised Version--
My little children, let no man lead you astray: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

Webster's Bible Translation--
Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

Weymouth New Testament--
Dear children, let no one lead you astray. The man who acts righteously is righteous, just as He is righteous.

World English Bible--
Little children, let no one lead you astray. He who does righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

Young's Literal Translation--
Little children, let no one lead you astray; he who is doing the righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
Gary

Buffalo, NY

#30391 Mar 19, 2013
Hi Lee:

Yes, there are only two classes of siners and that is one that is saved by the grace, mercy, and love of God, Eph. 2:8-9, and those that are left on their own that is it Lee.

Either we were saved by Christ righteousness not our own as some may believe for God makes this very, very, clear when He tells us it is not by our rightousness which WE have done but by His mercy He has saved us.

Those that believe that they are saved by something that they have done is called [self rightousness] the scribes and Pharisses were very good in this as Jesus went into great detail in Matthew 23 the whole chapter talking about man's righteousness which is as filthy rags verse God's righteousness.

When God tells us very clear that He which has begun a good work in you will perform it unto the day of the Lord Jesus Christ this is called His [God's] good work if we want to claim part of the work of salvation unto our self then we make void the Spirit of God this is just the flesh and the flesh will always exalt self not Christ this is what this [free will] gospel does it takes the Lord off the throne and it put's self there it is a doctrine that really is based on the pride of man as I shared with you the two differnt [I WILL'S] the one is found in Isa. 14, the [I WILL] of Satan, the other is the [I WILL] of God, Romans 9:11-15-16, Ezeak. 36:24-29.

Lee, in man's pride he cannot humble himself to give all the glory to God in His work of salvation alone from beginning to the end this is why He is called the AUTHOR and FINISHER of our salvation, Heb. 12:2. The Alpha and Omega the beginning and the ending. For one to say you have to be baptized, accepet,reach out and accept Jesus, go to church, and on and on it goes no body really knows how much many believe in to assist their so called salvation.

Now to be born again is not the act of mere sinful man it is an act and work and miricle of God alone we do not enter into this work at all and to add to the finished work of Christ is making void the spirit of grace, Heb. 10:29.

We had no part in our first birth and we sure do not have any part in our second birth those that think they do are really in total denial to think that one had the power to choose the parents when they would be born is just silly the same goes with being [born again] they both are an act and work of God. Pride will blind us to the most basic of truth's. However, they are not really basic they are all spiritual this is why only those that are spiritually born again will understand the power of God in the salvation of man it has nothing to do with what man could do if it did then this would mean Jesus died in vain for us if we can merit the work which only God can do. All this is folly and will lead one in danger of their own souls this is why God tells us today if you hear His voice harden not your hearts in the day of provacation. This is why this subject is of the utmost importance we have to make sure as the word declares that our calling and election is sure if we do this we will not fall, 2 Peter 1:10. 2 Cor. 13:5. I hope all will look these verses up to make sure we are on the same track I pray that we all may grow in the grace and knoweldge of the Lord and that He will have mercy on all who reads His word. Thank you. Gary. 1 John 3:13-15.
Gary

Buffalo, NY

#30392 Mar 19, 2013
Hi Lee:

Thank you for sharing those verses, let me add also the Greek literal translation of Green's

"The one acting unjustly, let him act unjustly; and the filthy, let him still be filthy: and the righteous, let him still do righteousness; and the holy, let him still be holy." Rev. 22:11
Brother Lee Love wrote:
English Revised Version--
My little children, let no man lead you astray: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
Webster's Bible Translation--
Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
Weymouth New Testament--
Dear children, let no one lead you astray. The man who acts righteously is righteous, just as He is righteous.
World English Bible--
Little children, let no one lead you astray. He who does righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
Young's Literal Translation--
Little children, let no one lead you astray; he who is doing the righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

“Become Love!”

Since: Jan 09

Nowhere/Now here

#30393 Mar 19, 2013
Gary wrote:
Hi Lee:
Thank you for sharing those verses, let me add also the Greek literal translation of Green's
"The one acting unjustly, let him act unjustly; and the filthy, let him still be filthy: and the righteous, let him still do righteousness; and the holy, let him still be holy." Rev. 22:11
You're welcome, Gary. However, I don't understand your reason for quoting Revelation 22:11. What's your thoughts on what the prophet John wrote, though?

1John 3:7

Literal Translation--
Little children, no one let lead astray you; he that practices righteousness, righteous is, even as he righteous is.

Greek Transliteration Version--
TEKNIA, MEDEIS PLANATO HYMAS; HO POION TEN DIKAIOSYNEN, DIKAIOS ESTIN, KATHOS EKEINOS DIKAIOS ESTIN.

King James Bible--
Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

New International Version--
Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. The one who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous.

New Living Translation--
Dear children, don't let anyone deceive you about this: When people do what is right, it shows that they are righteous, even as CHRIST is righteous.

English Standard Version--
Little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous, as he is righteous.

New American Standard Bible--
Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous.

Holman Christian Standard Bible--
Little children, let no one deceive you! The one who does what is right is righteous, just as He is righteous.

International Standard Version--
Little children, don't let anyone deceive you. The person who practices righteousness is righteous, just as the MESSIAH is righteous.

NET Bible--
Little children, let no one deceive you: The one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as JESUS is righteous.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English--
Children, let no one deceive you; he who does righteousness is righteous even as THE MESSIAH also is righteous.

GOD'S WORD Translation--
Dear children, don't let anyone deceive you. Whoever does what God approves of has God's approval as CHRIST has God's approval.

American Standard Version--
My little children, let no man lead you astray: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

Douay-Rheims Bible--
Little children, let no man deceive you. He that doth justice is just, even as he is just.

Darby Bible Translation
Children, let no man lead you astray; he that practises righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

English Revised Version--
My little children, let no man lead you astray: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

Webster's Bible Translation--
Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

Weymouth New Testament--
Dear children, let no one lead you astray. The man who acts righteously is righteous, just as He is righteous.

World English Bible--
Little children, let no one lead you astray. He who does righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

Young's Literal Translation--
Little children, let no one lead you astray; he who is doing the righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

“Become Love!”

Since: Jan 09

Nowhere/Now here

#30394 Mar 19, 2013
Gary wrote:
Hi Lee:

Yes, there are...those that are left on their own that is it Lee.
I'd be interested in learning your understanding of Acts 17:30-31.

"And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth ALL MEN EVERY WHERE to repent: Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto ALL MEN, in that he hath raised him from the dead."
Gary wrote:
Either we were saved by Christ righteousness not our own as some may believe for God makes this very, very, clear when He tells us it is not by our rightousness which WE have done but by His mercy He has saved us.
I agree. But, can the elect continue in willful sin and still be saved? Book, chapter, and verse, please. And for the record, our anointed Savior saved us from the penalty of death of the Mosaic law. That's the definition of "grace". Until the return of our anointed Savior, though, we still die. It's not until after the second resurrection that death will be destroyed in the lake of fire.
Gary wrote:
Those that believe that they are saved by something that they have done is called [self rightousness] the scribes and Pharisses were very good in this as Jesus went into great detail in Matthew 23 the whole chapter talking about man's righteousness which is as filthy rags verse God's righteousness.
Actually, the "self-righteous" are those that believe they're concept of righteousness derives from self and not from "God". And according to 1John 3:7, anyone that thinks, acts, reacts, and speaks, righteously is righteous. Isaiah was referring, strictly, to Israel. And Matthew 23 is the record of our anointed Savior exposing the scribes and Pharisees as hypocrites, not as self-righteous. There's a difference.
Gary wrote:
When God tells us very clear that He which has begun a good work in you will perform it unto the day of the Lord Jesus Christ this is called His [God's] good work
First, Paul was referring to that whole Philippian congregation. Secondly, the "good work" is "God's" grace. "God's" grace will continue until the return of our anointed Savior.
Gary wrote:
if we want to claim part of the work of salvation unto our self then we make void the Spirit of God this is just the flesh and the flesh will always exalt self not Christ
I've already admitted that "God" is in complete control of salvation. Salvation begins with "God". And "God" dictates the stipulations of salvation. But, whether we become saved depends on whether or not we accept "God's" salvation and become what's expected of us-- which is Love.

Romans 11:18-22
Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. BE NOT HIGHMINDED, BUT FEAR:
For if God spared not the natural branches, TAKE HEED LEST HE ALSO SPARE NOT THEE.
Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, IF THOU CONTINUE IN HIS GOODNESS: otherwise THOU ALSO SHALT BE CUT OFF.
Gary wrote:
this is what this [free will] gospel does it takes the Lord off the throne and it put's self there it is a doctrine that really is based on the pride of man as I shared with you the two differnt [I WILL'S] the one is found in Isa. 14, the [I WILL] of Satan, the other is the [I WILL] of God, Romans 9:11-15-16, Ezeak. 36:24-29.
So, you don't agree with all the verses I quoted that used the possessive pronouns "ye," "yours," and "I"? Or, the verses I quoted where Paul instructed believers to follow him?

Is it not giving glory to "God" when we declare that we're righteous only because we adhere to the righteous law of "God"?

“Become Love!”

Since: Jan 09

Nowhere/Now here

#30395 Mar 19, 2013
PART II
Gary wrote:
Lee, in man's pride he cannot humble himself to give all the glory to God in His work of salvation alone from beginning to the end this is why He is called the AUTHOR and FINISHER of our salvation, Heb. 12:2. The Alpha and Omega the beginning and the ending.
Our anointed Savior is the author and finisher of my faith. But, doesn't this mean that he's the first and last example of faith to follow?
Gary wrote:
For one to say you have to be baptized, accepet,reach out and accept Jesus, go to church, and on and on it goes no body really knows how much many believe in to assist their so called salvation.
Can we call it assistance when we're only following what we learn from the bible to begin with?
Gary wrote:
Now to be born again is not the act of mere sinful man it is an act and work and miricle of God alone we do not enter into this work at all and to add to the finished work of Christ is making void the spirit of grace, Heb. 10:29.
Becoming born-again, no. Becoming born-again is a work that "God" has to perform. But, unless we accept our anointed Savior as our means to "God" is our responsibility.
Gary wrote:
We had no part in our first birth and we sure do not have any part in our second birth
That's according to you, based on secular reasoning. There's no verse you can provide that proves that.
Gary wrote:
those that think they do are really in total denial to think that one had the power to choose the parents when they would be born is just silly the same goes with being [born again] they both are an act and work of God.
Becoming a believer and becoming born-again are two different things.
Gary wrote:
Pride will blind us to the most basic of truth's. However, they are not really basic they are all spiritual this is why only those that are spiritually born again will understand the power of God in the salvation of man it has nothing to do with what man could do if it did then this would mean Jesus died in vain for us if we can merit the work which only God can do. All this is folly and will lead one in danger of their own souls
Unbeknownst to you, you just called me foolish and void of the spirit.
Gary wrote:
this is why God tells us today if you hear His voice harden not your hearts in the day of provacation.
Why would "God" tell anyone not to harden their hearts if He controlled that anyway?
Gary wrote:
This is why this subject is of the utmost importance we have to make sure as the word declares that our calling and election is sure if we do this we will not fall, 2 Peter 1:10. 2 Cor. 13:5.[QUOTE who="Gary"]2Peter 1:10 says, "Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall." Now, didn't Paul mean that "God" will make us diligent so that we can make our calling and election sure, so that we won't fall?

[QUOTE who="Gary"]I hope all will look these verses up to make sure we are on the same track I pray that we all may grow in the grace and knoweldge of the Lord and that He will have mercy on all who reads His word. Thank you. Gary. 1 John 3:13-15.
That's what we're trying to do, Gary.

“Become Love!”

Since: Jan 09

Nowhere/Now here

#30396 Mar 19, 2013
PART II
Gary wrote:
Lee, in man's pride he cannot humble himself to give all the glory to God in His work of salvation alone from beginning to the end this is why He is called the AUTHOR and FINISHER of our salvation, Heb. 12:2. The Alpha and Omega the beginning and the ending.
Our anointed Savior is the author and finisher of my faith. But, doesn't this mean that he's the first and last example of faith to follow?
Gary wrote:
For one to say you have to be baptized, accepet,reach out and accept Jesus, go to church, and on and on it goes no body really knows how much many believe in to assist their so called salvation.
Can we call it assistance when we're only following what we learn from the bible to begin with?
Gary wrote:
Now to be born again is not the act of mere sinful man it is an act and work and miricle of God alone we do not enter into this work at all and to add to the finished work of Christ is making void the spirit of grace, Heb. 10:29.
Becoming born-again, no. Becoming born-again is a work that "God" has to perform. But, unless we accept our anointed Savior as our means to "God" is our responsibility.
Gary wrote:
We had no part in our first birth and we sure do not have any part in our second birth
That's according to you, based on secular reasoning. There's no verse you can provide that proves that.
Gary wrote:
those that think they do are really in total denial to think that one had the power to choose the parents when they would be born is just silly the same goes with being [born again] they both are an act and work of God.
Becoming a believer and becoming born-again are two different things.
Gary wrote:
Pride will blind us to the most basic of truth's. However, they are not really basic they are all spiritual this is why only those that are spiritually born again will understand the power of God in the salvation of man it has nothing to do with what man could do if it did then this would mean Jesus died in vain for us if we can merit the work which only God can do. All this is folly and will lead one in danger of their own souls
Unbeknownst to you, you just called me foolish and void of the spirit.
Gary wrote:
this is why God tells us today if you hear His voice harden not your hearts in the day of provacation.
Why would "God" tell anyone not to harden their hearts if He controlled that anyway?
Gary wrote:
This is why this subject is of the utmost importance we have to make sure as the word declares that our calling and election is sure if we do this we will not fall, 2 Peter 1:10. 2 Cor. 13:5.
2Peter 1:10 says, "Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall." Now, didn't Paul mean that "God" will make us diligent so that "God" can make our calling and election sure, so that we won't fall?
Gary wrote:
I hope all will look these verses up to make sure we are on the same track I pray that we all may grow in the grace and knoweldge of the Lord and that He will have mercy on all who reads His word. Thank you. Gary. 1 John 3:13-15.
That's what we're trying to do, Gary.

Since: Aug 11

Location hidden

#30399 Mar 19, 2013
Brother Lee Love wrote:
<quoted text>First, no offense taken. You are entitled to your own opinion, and I respect that. And as to your opinion...
The fact is, what I'm trying to show Gary are the differences between his beliefs and that which the bible teaches. As far as Gary is concerned, all that come to believe in our Godhead, so forth and so on, are predetermined, predestined, and chosen, to live forever in the coming kingdom. This would mean, then, that those that don't come to believe in our Godhead, so forth and so on, are predetermined, predestined, and chosen, to be forever destroyed by means of the lake of fire. And as I said before, I can only assume that the foundation of this most erroneous belief derives from a gross misunderstanding of Romans 9 (among others, maybe). What has to be proven is that not all that come to believe in our Godhead, so forth and so on, are predetermined, predestined, and chosen. Only the vocation of the elect is. And not every believer will serve in the vocation of the elect. As I said in a previous post; "All the elect are believers, but not all believers are the elect."
The second issue is that Gary believes that we have no control over anything that takes place in our lives, whether thoughts, actions, reactions, or speech. According to Gary, the very act of repentance is not a personal decision made, but a provocation of "God". And such beliefs are founded on the belief that all that come to believe in our Godhead, so forth and so on, are predetermined, predestined, and chosen. Conclusively, Gary doesn't believe in free-will. And I believe this is most erroneous. For starters, we're told the importance and gravity of genuineness and sincerity in our walk with our Godhead. The issue arises, then, that if "God" controls even the decision to repent, then this eliminates every notion of genuineness and sincerity, altogether. And as you've, most likely, come to imagine by now, such beliefs cause questions and doubt in regards to compassion, as well.
I understand your point. And I believe it's good that you've brought up the subject of compassion. When it comes to compassion, we can be sure that Gary will rely on and quote a verse from Romans 9 to prove his beliefs accurate. Before I quote the verse, remember that I mentioned Romans 9 in this very post and how I believe that Gary's understanding of Romans 9 is most erroneous. Anyway, Romans 9:15 says, "For [God] saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion." Isolated, this does seem to coincide with Gary's beliefs. But, when compared to all else written, the intended meaning becomes evident.
For your knowledge, this discussion (between Gary and myself) is an old one. Gary might have changed his beliefs when it comes to trying to find out the actual moment that our anointed Savior is going to return, but I haven't noticed much change in anything else, or any change in his beliefs, at all, other than in the advent-time. But, to his credit, we haven't really discussed much else, so...
I see. I would say first of all that eternal punishment is far too severe. For example, how could even one lifetime of crime be worth and eternity of punishment? I would like to think of God as being just rather than putative. I'm sure these juxtapositions already exist in the Bible so one could use the Bible to justify either position right? God could punish the unbelievers because God is God and can make arbitrary rules. We could also argue that God is of unconditional love and would do no such thing. The question is a perennial question as to the nature of God. Is our God a God of Love or a vengeful God of conditional love?

“Become Love!”

Since: Jan 09

Nowhere/Now here

#30400 Mar 20, 2013
WasteWater wrote:
I see. I would say first of all that eternal punishment is far too severe. For example, how could even one lifetime of crime be worth and eternity of punishment? I would like to think of God as being just rather than putative. I'm sure these juxtapositions already exist in the Bible so one could use the Bible to justify either position right? God could punish the unbelievers because God is God and can make arbitrary rules. We could also argue that God is of unconditional love and would do no such thing. The question is a perennial question as to the nature of God. Is our God a God of Love or a vengeful God of conditional love?
Okay. I'm going to try to do this without making a novel out of it.

The wages of sin is death. To think that anyone will live forever (keywords: live forever) in some fiery torment is contradictory. Everlasting life is the gift for the righteous only. There are two deaths, though. The first, all will be resurrected from, to be judged. The second indicates a total annihilation of both, flesh and spirit. There's no resurrection from the second death. The second death might seem cruel, but it's proof of love and compassion toward all that chose to learn and live righteousness. To eradicate murder and fornication, "God" must eradicate those that chose to continue committing such sins. This total annihilation of those that chose to continue in unrighteousness is to protect those that chose to live righteously.

As we peruse the bible, we learn that there are only three characters that will be made to endure punishment either, for ever, or for an extended period of time. And these are Satan, the beast, and the false prophet. But, the unrighteous of men are not among these. Death is death. And according to what's written, there's no conscious state in death.

I believe "unconditional love" is an invention of men, based on just wishful thinking if nothing else. Perhaps, it's a concept of the presumptuous sinner. As we read the history within the texts, though, we read of many conditions. Deuteronomy 28 is a prime example of such conditions. One such condition is as follows...

Romans 11:18-22
Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and THOU STANDEST BY FAITH. BE NOT HIGHMINDED, BUT FEAR:
For if God spared not the natural branches, TAKE HEED LEST HE ALSO SPARE NOT THEE.
Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but TOWARD THEE, GOODNESS, IF THOU CONTINUE IN HIS GOODNESS: OTHERWISE THOU ALSO SHALT BE CUT OFF.

Many chose to ignore the fact that stipulations and conditions exist throughout the bible. But, if it's anything we should pay close attention to, it's the following. One; the above reveals to us a most obvious stipulation and condition. And two; contradictory to what some might believe, we're going to be held solely responsible for the choices we make in this life and no one else. Not "God". Not Satan. And not those we allowed to lead us. WE'RE warned not to boast against the branches! WE'RE warned not to be highminded, but to fear! WE'RE told to behold the goodness and severity of "God"! WE'RE told that we'll be blessed with goodness IF we continue in His goodness! And that's the facts, Jack!

I'll provide verses if you need them, to prove my assertions. But, until next time...
Gary

Buffalo, NY

#30401 Mar 20, 2013
Hi Lee:

Sure I be more than glad to give you my imput concerning Acts 17:30-31.

First, before I get started remember when I was sharing saying many times we can come to the wrong conclusion by isolating a verse or two but if we do not put all the weight that bears on this subect we can fall into error I know this from experience and I believe we all fall short just because we all only know in part and declare in part.

The key word in Acts 17:30-31 is the word [repent] God can call everyone everywhere to repent as we hear John saying Repent ye for the kingdom of God is at hand. Jesus tells us that the kingdom of God is at hand repent ye and believe the gospel.

You see God commands the world to repent but who are those that will repent? Here is Jesus prayer to the Father,

"I pray for them: I pray NOT FOR THE WORLD, but for them which THOU HAST GIVEN ME: fot they ARE HINE."

"I HAVE GIVEN THEM THY WORD; and the WORLD hath HATED THEM, because they ARE NOT OF THE WORLD, even so I am not of the WORLD." John 17:9, 14

Lee, we can see very clear here that only those that God has taken them [the elect] out of the world as Jesus is not of the world.

God also tells us that we cannot repent unless God alone gives one the gift to repent, 2 Tim. 2:25-26.

This is why I asked the question, are we born dead in sins or not? Gary
Brother Lee Love wrote:
<quoted text>I'd be interested in learning your understanding of Acts 17:30-31.
"And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth ALL MEN EVERY WHERE to repent: Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto ALL MEN, in that he hath raised him from the dead."
<quoted text>I agree. But, can the elect continue in willful sin and still be saved? Book, chapter, and verse, please. And for the record, our anointed Savior saved us from the penalty of death of the Mosaic law. That's the definition of "grace". Until the return of our anointed Savior, though, we still die. It's not until after the second resurrection that death will be destroyed in the lake of fire.
<quoted text>Actually, the "self-righteous" are those that believe they're concept of righteousness derives from self and not from "God". And according to 1John 3:7, anyone that thinks, acts, reacts, and speaks, righteously is righteous. Isaiah was referring, strictly, to Israel. And Matthew 23 is the record of our anointed Savior exposing the scribes and Pharisees as hypocrites, not as self-righteous. There's a difference.
<quoted text>First, Paul was referring to that whole Philippian congregation. Secondly, the "good work" is "God's" grace. "God's" grace will continue until the return of our anointed Savior.
<quoted text>I've already admitted that "God" is in complete control of salvation. Salvation begins with "God". And "God" dictates the stipulations of salvation. But, whether we become saved depends on whether or not we accept "God's" salvation and become what's expected of us-- which is Love.
Romans 11:18-22
Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. BE NOT HIGHMINDED, BUT FEAR:
For if God spared not the natural branches, TAKE HEED LEST HE ALSO SPARE NOT THEE.
Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, IF THOU CONTINUE IN HIS GOODNESS: otherwise THOU ALSO SHALT BE CUT OFF.
<quoted text>So, you don't agree with all the verses I quoted that used the possessive pronouns "ye," "yours," and "I"? Or, the verses I quoted where Paul instructed believers to follow him?
Is it not giving glory to "God" when we declare that we're righteous only because we adhere to the righteous law of "God"?

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