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Gary

Buffalo, NY

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#30346
Mar 17, 2013
 
Hi Lee:

I am sorry but you asked me a coupple of questions and I answered them I believe in great detail. However, you did not show me where I was wrong at all what you have tried to do is not follow through with my verses and how they tie-into each other in harmony. Lee, we cannot just grab one verse out of what I was saying and spin it to your meaning it does not work like this we must follow through for example, when Jesus said that you have not chosen me but I have chosen you. This verse also tie in with many are called but few are chosen in other words many may hear the gospel call but it is still up to the Lord to save. I explained in detail how God saves, why we cannot get our self saved I used the foundation that th Bible declares that we are all born dead and in sins, Eph. 2:1, Romans 3:10-12, Eph. 2:8-9., Romans 9:11-24, Romans 8:33-35.

Now you never addressed the foundation of my points here at all when showing you that we are all born dead.

Let me just ask you this question Lee, Are we all born in tresspasses and in sins? This is the foundation one must come from because it tells us we have no more choice to chose Jesus than we had any choice to chose our parents and when we would be born and at what time. What you are saying is, we can choose when we can be born again. Lee, you first have to start with my first question we cannot dodge this I know I had for a long time in the past myself but by the mercy of God I knew I had to deal with these biblical facts, we cannot just skirt around the main issue and pretend that this was not there. Lee, I have asked you many questions in the past and none of them were answerewd yet you seem to think you answered them all please go back and you will see just how much you have missed.

Lee, please why don't you ask me one question and I will annswer it if I could until it is finished instead of skiping all over the place here all this leads to is confusion I am sorry to say.

Again, here is my question to you. Are we all born dead in sins? Thank you. Gary.
Brother Lee Love wrote:
@Gary
What we have, right now, is my posts addressing the verses you quote-- that you believe proves your beliefs accurate and true-- and the interpretations of the same verse-quotes. What we don't have, though, is any such address from you regarding the verses I quote and the interpretations of them.
You're, obviously, disagreeing with my posts, but you're not providing any valid explanations that express why you disagree. All you keep posting are testimonials while, almost, repeating yourself in every post.
Why, Gary, are your interpretations accurate and mine not? Help me to understand.

“Become Love!”

Since: Jan 09

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#30347
Mar 17, 2013
 
Gary wrote:
Hi Lee:
You said concerning John 15:16 where Jesus said you have not chosen me but I have chosen you,,,"
You stated concerning this verses that everyone was not chosen to be a believer by Jesus."
I am sorry but you lost me right here in your reasoning.
Well, the burden of proof rests on you, then. I explained how that from John 13:1, all that was said was said directly and specifically to his apostles. If you can provide one shred of evidence that proves otherwise, then I'll accept it.
Gary wrote:
Question, where in the word of God does it say that God did not chose all the elect?
I didn't say that, at all. What I said was that not all believers are the elect. All the elect are believers, but not all believers are the elect.
Gary wrote:
Question, why would you add Pentecost to what God the Lord said when He said no man can come to me, unless the Father draw him.
Because, there's a time and season for everything. The question is, how does "God" draw us? The answer is simple.

As it's written, faith comes by hearing. In some cases, faith comes by reading, but regardless. "God" draws us when we learn of what He accomplished for us through and by His only-begotten Son. His message is expected to provoke us to godly sorrow. Godly sorrow provokes repentance. And repentance provokes faith and good works.

Romans 10:14
How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
Gary wrote:
Where do we see this is just refering to Pentecost?
Luke 24:49
And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high.
Gary wrote:
I am sorry but I see no proof of this at all in the word of God what some will try to do is try to reason God's election program right out of the Bible I know at one time I did not understand this but I had to shelf it I never tried to reason those verses in a private interpitation for I know that no scripture is given for private interpitation.
CORRECTION:

2Peter 1:20
Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of one's own interpretation.

Peter was writing, specifically, about prophecies. Not scriptures in general.
Gary wrote:
I believe when we allow for the word to declare what God is saying by doing word studies on the meaning of these words and see how God defines His own words then we will get a better picture in how God is using His word.
Are you saying that I've not done word-studies? Do I not include Hebrew and Greek renderings when necessary?
Gary wrote:
To make a sweeping statement that God did not choose all the believers then this would mean there was more than one salvation would it not?
No.
Gary wrote:
Where does it state that those that did not walk any more with Jesus were still saved?
Nowhere. That's not what I said, anyway.
Gary wrote:
Does this mean Judas was saved also?
Of course, not. And again, that's not what I said.
Gary wrote:
I am sorry but I see way to much of self in this reasoning, I just do not see it in the word please chapter and verse. Thank you. Gary
When you say "self," do you mean like how I showed those verses that used such possessive pronouns as "ye," "your," and "I"? Or, are you referring to the verses I quoted that showed Paul instructing believers to follow him? Did Paul not write, "Follow me"?

“Become Love!”

Since: Jan 09

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#30348
Mar 17, 2013
 
@Gary

Colossians 2:13
And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses.

Ephesians 2:1
And you has he made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins.

Ephesians 2:5
Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ.
__________

Before we continue, please and if you will, consider the following exhortation.

Isaiah 1:16-17
Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes; cease to do evil;
Learn to do well.
__________

Now, the answer is "Yes." We were dead in our trespasses and sins. So, how are we made "alive" again? By miraculous intervention? No. The answer is...

John 6:63
It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

John 15:3
Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.

Ephesians 5:25-26
..even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word

John 17:17
Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

Psalm 119:93
I will never forget thy precepts: for with them thou hast quickened me.

Psalm 19:7-8
The law of Yahoweh is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of Yahoweh is sure, making wise the simple.
The statutes of Yahoweh are right, rejoicing the heart: the commandment of Yahoweh is pure, enlightening the eyes.

Psalm 119:9
Wherewithal shall a young man cleanse his way? by taking heed thereto according to thy word.

James 1:21
Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
__________

So, there you have it, Gary. And these bring us back to my initial declaration.

Romans 10:14
How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

In conclusion, we become "alive" when we first, hear the gospel, then secondly, accept the gospel as truth.

“Become Love!”

Since: Jan 09

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#30349
Mar 17, 2013
 
@Gary

You quoted Matthew 22:14. This says, "For many are called, but few are chosen." Now, let's examine this account, if you don't mind.

Matthew 22:1-14
And Jesus answered and spake unto them again by parables, and said,
The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son,
And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.
Again, he sent forth other servants, saying, Tell them which are bidden, Behold, I have prepared my dinner: my oxen and my fatlings are killed, and all things are ready: come unto the marriage.
But they made light of it, and went their ways, one to his farm, another to his merchandise:
And the remnant took his servants, and entreated them spitefully, and slew them.
But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city.
Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy.
Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage.
So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests.
And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment:
And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.
Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
For many are called, but few are chosen.

Again, Gary, you fail to recognize the relevance in this account. In this case, let's not focus on "speaker-audience" relevance, but "time" relevance instead.

As we can see, the marriage is underway. This is why the king said, "The wedding is ready." And this is what our focus should be on, as knowing the time the wedding occurs is crucial to our understanding of this parable.

The wedding takes place after the great day of Judgment. Those that have proven themselves worthy to attend will be granted stay in the kingdom of glory. Now, who are the characters in this parable?

1) Those that were initially bidden, but wouldn't go, are the priesthood. Before all, it was the priesthood that "took his servants, and entreated them spitefully, and slew them." To prove this, we need not look any further than Matthew 21:45. Here, it says, "And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them." If we desire to know the "speaker-audience" relevance of this account, then we can easily conclude that our anointed Savior was speaking to a crowd, but that his subject matter was the priesthood and their relation to the kingdom. At verse 23 of Matthew 21, it reads, "And when he was come into the temple, the chief priests and the elders of the people came unto him as he was teaching." Matthew 21:23 marks the beginning of this account and of the parables he taught, even that which we read in Matthew 22.

2) Those that were in "the highways, and as many as ye shall find" are those of Israel not of the priesthood. And the one that was found without a garment was the one that didn't prepare for the wedding. Therefore, this one was cast out. This one will not be allowed stay in the kingdom of glory. And now, we return to the initial quote.

Matthew 22:14
For many are called, but few are chosen.

The "many" are all of Israel. The "few" are those allowed stay in the kingdom of glory. To believe that the "few" are only those that were chosen contradicts such scriptures as 2Peter 3:9.

"The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that ANY should perish, but that ALL should come to repentance."

"Any" and "all" means just that, Gary. The most High doesn't desire that ANY perish.

Since: Aug 11

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#30350
Mar 17, 2013
 
Gary wrote:
Hi Waste:
I am sorry but I do not believe the word of God is just assumptions here is what God tells us.
"For the prophecy came not in old time by THE WILL OF MAN: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Spirit." 2 Peter 1:21.
Waste, by God's mercy I believe His word and there will come a day when every kneee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to God be the glory. I will not ever speak against the Almighty when He says something I believe without any doubt that God could make sure He preserved His word after all He is the God who brought this world into being by the power of His word. So who am I to speak against the Almighty to assume anything that He says is faulty? God forbid I bow to the word of God because it comes from the mouth of God by holy men of God and we can see in Jer. 36:1-2 that God commanded Jerimiah to write His words in a book and he did as commanded by God, so when we get to the end of the book in Rev. 22:18-19, God again, warns all not to add nor take away any of His words in this book we call the Bible or He will add the judgments to anyone who does that is in this book. I believe as God declares, Let God be true and every man a liar. God will have the final word on judgment day this is for sure if we believe it or not. Thank you. Gary. 1 John 3:13-15
<quoted text>
You are using the Bible to prove the Bible to be God's Word. That is circular reasoning. Do you have any other reason to hold such a belief? Do you have any tangible evidence that God is directly responsible for what is written in the Bible?

“Become Love!”

Since: Jan 09

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#30351
Mar 17, 2013
 
REITERATED:

Matthew 22:14
For many are called, but few are chosen.

The "many" are all of Israel. The "few" are those allowed stay in the kingdom of glory. To believe that the "few" are only those that were chosen to become believers contradicts such scriptures as 2Peter 3:9.

"The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that ANY should perish, but that ALL should come to repentance."

"Any" and "all" means just that, Gary. The most High doesn't desire that ANY perish.

Again, to believe that the "few" are only those that were chosen to become believers contradicts such scriptures as 2Peter 3:9. The "few" are those that were allowed to continue as a guest in the wedding and allowed stay in the kingdom of glory.

“Become Love!”

Since: Jan 09

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#30352
Mar 17, 2013
 
@Gary

QUESTION: Why was Satan allowed to cause Job to suffer?

ANSWER: 1Corinthians 10:13
God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able.

According to what's written, "God" did nothing to assist Job during his suffering. "God" didn't make Job stronger. "God" didn't increase Job's faith. "God" didn't make Job remain obedient. The only thing "God" did was count on the faith and obedience already present in Job.

What's a must that we consider is that Satan's contention was not against "God," but against Job. And like you said, even though Satan was allowed to cause Job to suffer, the most High still enacted boundaries that Satan couldn't cross. With this fact in mind, then we must consider the foolishness in thinking that Satan would have still injured Job if he thought, for one second, that "God" was going to intervene. And as we read Job 1 and 2, there's no accusation of Satan against "God" whatsoever that even suggests such aid. However, I think it's important that we examine Satan's original accusation.

First, Job 1:1 says, "There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil." Now, as we read this account, we'll notice that it was the most High that asked Satan, "Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?" Therefore, if anything, it was "God" that provoked Satan's attacks against Job. But, what was Satan's argument regarding Job's faith and obedience? Satan argued, "Doth Job fear God for nought? Hast not thou made an hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he hath on every side? thou hast blessed the work of his hands, and his substance is increased in the land." In other words, Satan was accusing Job of fraud! Satan's argument was that Job was only faithful and obedient because of all that the most High did and does for him! But, Satan was wrong. And the most High knew that Job's faith and obedience were genuine and sincere, and not because of anything he received of "God." And this is why Satan requested, "But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath," believing that by doing so, Job would become unfaithful and disobedient. And he was wrong.

In conclusion, Job's faith and obedience was not provoked and sustained by anything "God" did. Job's faith and obedience was genuine and sincere, and based on personally induced devotion toward "God."

Since: Aug 11

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#30353
Mar 17, 2013
 
Jesus only gave lessons on compassion.

Here are some interesting links.

http://www.sp urgeo n.org/sermons/3438 .htm http://www.je susce ntral.com/ji/jesus -parables-teaching s/jesus-example/je sus-compassionate. php http://whatthebibl eteaches.com/wbt_1 64.htm http://www.bi blega teway.com/passage/ ?search=Matthew+9% 3A35-38&versio n=NKJV http://www.st alban s.org .nz/teachings /rob_yule/jesus/je sus6-3rd.htm http://www.ex plore faith.org/livingsp iritually/compassi on/following_jesus _means_compassion. php http://dianagraymi nistries.net/bible /bso_compassion.ht ml http://bible.cc/ma tthew/20-34.htm http://saltandligh ttv.org/blog/rosic areflections/jesus -the-compassionate -shepherd-of-god http://www.rci.ru t gers.edu/~lcrew/jo yanyway/joy156.htm l

“What are you looking at?”

Since: Jan 08

Albuquerque, NM

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#30354
Mar 18, 2013
 
Brother Lee Love wrote:
<quoted text>Because, we're told, in the bible, what's expected of us. We know what will allow us, or deny us, access into the coming kingdom.
<quoted text>Perhaps, you should study more. The easiest way to determine what's the "word of 'God'" and what's not is by measuring it against the Torah and the Tanakh. If anything contradicts, then it's not the "word of 'God'." I, too, have read and studied the books that weren't considered "canonical." I'm well aware of what's canonical and what's not. As a matter of fact, I especially enjoy the books of the Apocrypha and the book called "Enoch". But, in all these cases, I've learned to eat the meat and discard of the bones.
<quoted text>Because, it coincides with the discussion we're having.
<quoted text>Actually, I neither, believe in so-called "near-death," nor "life-after-death" experiences. It's been proven that such "experiences" are based on life-long conditioning. And that's why a Buddhist sees what's expected based on what they've been taught, a Muslim sees what's expected based on what they've been taught, and "Christians" see what's expected based on what they've been taught.
<quoted text>Paul never claimed to have either, almost died, or died, when he received his vision. And Paul didn't receive a vision.
<quoted text>You'll love the books "Conversations With God: An Uncommon Dialogue," by Neale Donald Walsch.
<quoted text>Perhaps, you should study more about the differences between Christianity and the apostasy. Have you noticed that every time I mention the terms "Christian" and "Christianity," I always put the term in quotes? There's a reason for that.
<quoted text>Says you. I've spent the last 30-years doing nothing but studying and researching religions and philosophies.
<quoted text>For you to ask me such a question proves you're not paying any attention to anything I've shared with you already. That's frustrating.
Two errors on my part....

a. Sorry to suppose you were "Christian"
b. Sorry to suppose you ahve not researched what you believe.

I'll be more careful in not to "suppose" with our exchange.

Thanks again for reading my post.

“What are you looking at?”

Since: Jan 08

Albuquerque, NM

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#30355
Mar 18, 2013
 
Gary wrote:
Dear all:
To declare with all convictions thinking it is all up to our [free will] that determis our salvation is the same as saying in the first birth it is all up to us to decide when we would be born to whom we would be born to and in what time we would be born after all this is what this [free will] is teaching it is all up to our own [free will] to get born again. I cannot believe the blindness in this type of thinking I cannot believe at one time I was this blind, proud, and arroagant to really think that the power and miricle of salvation of being [born again] was all left up to my own free will?
.
In Hinduism, the 'Spirit' selects new parents for his/her next life.
Gary

Buffalo, NY

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#30356
Mar 18, 2013
 
Hi Lee:

Another question I be glad to answer, very good question

"God gives one the hope of salvation He never states the whole world would be saved we know this by the word when God tells us that wide is the road that leads to destruction but narrow is the gate and few therein that finds it.

God is the one that is in complete control of salvation He alone is in the driver seat so to speak. God does gives mankind the call to wait, come seek the Lord we leave all the salvation work to the Lord, there is the problem people want to take it upon themselves just in case they are not of the elect so they come up with their own plan and as you know there are many out there. However, we have to bow down to verses when God tells us in, Lam. 3:26, God speaks I did not come up with this, these are God's words so the test is, will God give us repentance to acknowledge these truth's 2 Tim. 2:25-26, when He tells us in His word.

"The LORD is good unto them that WAIT FOR HIM, to the soul that SEEKETH Him. It is good that a man should both HOPE and QUIETLY WAIT for the salvation of the LORD." Lam 3:25-26

Here we see that God commands us to WAIT and to SEEK for Him, this is not my plan it is God's plan to both hope and quietly WAIT for the salvation of God.

Lee, the problem is today that many want a Mc donalds type of salvation that is all based on what I, ME, WE, do, have it your way self help salvation have it now come on down and be saved today. No! no matter what anyone tells you this is not the salvation plan of God it is the same exact spirit that when Satan said, I will be like the most High. Same spirit, I ME, WILL accept Jesus now! the name has been changed to protect the guilty sad to say.

We are living in a time that people want it and they want it now and they want it their way. However, the word declarees that there is a way that seems right to man but his way is the way of death and destruction follows.

The Lord encourages us to both wait and hope for the salvation of God we do not dictate to the Almighty when He will save us no way! We come with a broken and a contrite and humble heart not in a haughty spirit we see this in Psam. 51, When David sinned the first words that came out of his mouth when confronted with the truth from Nathan the prophet David said, Have mercy on me Lord. This whole chapter is a picture of salvation and the spirit of salvation even though David was a child of God we can see the spirit in which God saves one.

"The sacrifices od God are a broken and contrite heart, O Godm thou wilt not despise." Psalm 51:17

This is the spirit that God makes in one so he will call out to God out of a pure heart because God has already gave him the Spirit to worship God in Spirit and in truth, John 4:23 these are the only true worshipers that worship God. So when God tells us to wait and hope do we kick and scream and say, I don't like this! Speaking for myself here I know I liked this do it your way have it your way man made self help salvation because it kept my pride intacked and exalted me look what I, ME, did. You see God has to do all the work for He alone is the sole author and finsiher of ones faith, Heb. 12:2, He that begins a good WORK in you will perform it unto the day of the Lord Jesus Christ. However, He must do first the good work in one so he can believe and have faith that only God alone can give because He alone is the author He is the one that must start that good work to believe on Him, John 6:29. Thank you. Gary
Brother Lee Love wrote:
@Gary
Lamentations 3:26
It is good that a man should both hope and quietly wait for the salvation of Yahoweh.
You quoted the above verse, Gary. But, I must ask, now...
How can any man "hope and quietly wait" for anything when everything is out of our control? What this verse doesn't say is that "God" will make us, or makes us, "hope and quietly wait" for His salvation.
Gary

Buffalo, NY

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#30357
Mar 18, 2013
 
Hi Lee:

Your 100% correct here when you stated that God did nothing to assist Job durring in his suffering.

However, you maybe over looking one important factor and that is, Job was already a child of God that is a fact, we can know this just by what God said when speaking to Satan,,,, Have you tried MY SERVANT JOB?,,,

Job without any doubt here was a SERVANT OF THE MOST HIGH GOD SO YES HE WILL ENDURE UNTO THE END, MATTHEW 24:13, THE REASON WHY JOB ENDURED WAS HE WAS ALREADY A CHILD OF GOD

"And the LORD said unto Satan, hast thou considered MY SERVANT Job, that there is NONE LIKE HIM in the earth, A PERFECT and an UPRIGHT MAN, one that FEARETH GOD, and flees evil? and still holdeth fast his integrity although thou movedst me against him, to destroy without cause." Job 2:3

Here we see the battle was finished before it started why is this? The reason being is, he was already God's child and nothing shall sepearte him from the love of God nothing! Romans 8:35

"Who shall separate us from the love love of Christ?,,,"

The answer is nothing! The reason being, the work of God's salvation was already completed in Job before the test began so Job was going to endure unto the end of this testing. I believe this is the foundational point here don't you agree? Thank you. Gary
Brother Lee Love wrote:
@Gary
QUESTION: Why was Satan allowed to cause Job to suffer?
ANSWER: 1Corinthians 10:13
God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able.
According to what's written, "God" did nothing to assist Job during his suffering. "God" didn't make Job stronger. "God" didn't increase Job's faith. "God" didn't make Job remain obedient. The only thing "God" did was count on the faith and obedience already present in Job.
What's a must that we consider is that Satan's contention was not against "God," but against Job. And like you said, even though Satan was allowed to cause Job to suffer, the most High still enacted boundaries that Satan couldn't cross. With this fact in mind, then we must consider the foolishness in thinking that Satan would have still injured Job if he thought, for one second, that "God" was going to intervene. And as we read Job 1 and 2, there's no accusation of Satan against "God" whatsoever that even suggests such aid. However, I think it's important that we examine Satan's original accusation.
First, Job 1:1 says, "There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil." Now, as we read this account, we'll notice that it was the most High that asked Satan, "Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?" Therefore, if anything, it was "God" that provoked Satan's attacks against Job. But, what was Satan's argument regarding Job's faith and obedience? Satan argued, "Doth Job fear God for nought? Hast not thou made an hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he hath on every side? thou hast blessed the work of his hands, and his substance is increased in the land." In other words, Satan was accusing Job of fraud! Satan's argument was that Job was only faithful and obedient because of all that the most High did and does for him! But, Satan was wrong. And the most High knew that Job's faith and obedience were genuine and sincere, and not because of anything he received of "God." And this is why Satan requested, "But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath," believing that by doing so, Job would become unfaithful and disobedient. And he was wrong.
In conclusion, Job's faith and obedience was not provoked and sustained by anything "God" did. Job's faith and obedience was genuine and sincere, and based on personally induced devotion toward "God."
Gary

Buffalo, NY

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#30358
Mar 18, 2013
 
Hi Lee:

Again your correct here when you stated God does not desire that any perish. In fact, God tells us He does not take any deleght in the death of the wicked. The reason being is, Mankind was once created in the image of God and to some degree mankind has a conscience even though he has harden his conscience. However, God is also a just God and He must punish wickedness and we see this fact through out the Bible.

The fact is, without God steping into the picture we all would be lost the reason being everyone of us is tainted and born in sin, Eph. 2:1, Romans 3:10-12, This is why Jesus said that you have not chosen me but I have chosen you. Jesus salvation was the same then and the same now because no one can come to Jesus unless the Father draws him, why? The reason is he is dead this is why I asked you the main foundation question is, are we born in sins and trspasses? Once one comes to grips with the fact that we are all in the same boat that is born into sin we are in rebelion against God from the start that is why God tells us that there is not one that will seek Him no not one, Rom. 3:10-12, The only reason why anyone will seek the true and living God is because God has already done the work of salvation so they will seek after God in Spirit and in truth the reason being God gave them a new heart to seek after God. God said a new heart I will put into you and a new Spirit I will put into you. God has to do it all thus He gets all the glory and that is how it should be to God be all the glory great things He has done not great things WE, I, ME, have done no way. God is the author and finsher of one's faith because if one is truly saved it was by the faith of Christ, Gal. 2:16 Thank you. Gary
Brother Lee Love wrote:
REITERATED:
Matthew 22:14
For many are called, but few are chosen.
The "many" are all of Israel. The "few" are those allowed stay in the kingdom of glory. To believe that the "few" are only those that were chosen to become believers contradicts such scriptures as 2Peter 3:9.
"The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that ANY should perish, but that ALL should come to repentance."
"Any" and "all" means just that, Gary. The most High doesn't desire that ANY perish.
Again, to believe that the "few" are only those that were chosen to become believers contradicts such scriptures as 2Peter 3:9. The "few" are those that were allowed to continue as a guest in the wedding and allowed stay in the kingdom of glory.

“What are you looking at?”

Since: Jan 08

Albuquerque, NM

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#30359
Mar 18, 2013
 
Gary wrote:
<quoted text>Hi Lee:
Another question I be glad to answer, very good question
"God gives one the hope of salvation He never states the whole world would be saved we know this by the word when God tells us that wide is the road that leads to destruction but narrow is the gate and few therein that finds it.
With you stating this, this also sounds like Jesus dying has no bearing on the majority of the world, thus salvation is already gleemed as possible without any religion at all.

This "Atheist" seems to have seen the "promise land".....
http://www.near-death.com/experiences/atheist...

Ayer's account of his own NDE, for a man of such formidable intellect, was surprisingly similar to most of the others on record, though more elegantly observed. He wrote of "a red light for governing the universe" and some barrier he crossed, "like the River Styx." The experience, he said, "weakened my conviction that death would be the end of me, though I continue to hope it will be."

Religion is not needed for one to be saved, one just needs to save theirself - through understanding honest, peace, love, caring, and kindness.

Jesus didn't die ont he cross to "wash aways sins", and you've shown evidence that expresses this, but yet you still don't believe it is possible.

Men have surely wrapped their belief around your mind so you can't see the real truths.

“Become Love!”

Since: Jan 09

Nowhere/Now here

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#30360
Mar 18, 2013
 
New Age Spiritual Leader wrote:
Two errors on my part....
a. Sorry to suppose you were "Christian"
b. Sorry to suppose you ahve not researched what you believe.
I'll be more careful in not to "suppose" with our exchange.
Thanks again for reading my post.
I appreciate your humility. And I accept your apologies. I've met quite a few so-called "Christians" in this Topix-world that could learn a lot from your example.

Until next time, friend.

“Become Love!”

Since: Jan 09

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#30361
Mar 18, 2013
 
@Gary

In regards to your assertions-- that "God" is in complete control of salvation-- I agree 100%. But, here's what you're missing...

You're limiting the understanding of salvation by continually referring to salvation in its most general definition. Salvation, in general, is controlled by Father. Father alone makes salvation possible. Father alone dictates the stipulations of salvation. And Father alone chooses who'll receive salvation and who won't. But, Father can't lie. Therefore, salvation will be granted to those that made and make a personal effort accepting and receiving the salvation offered by Father. In this, we're not in control of salvation in the general sense, but we do control whether or not we'll receive Father's salvation. Consider the following, now, please and if you will.

Matthew 24:13
But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

As we can see, this is not a declaration of any guarantee, whatsoever. This, as a matter of fact, is a stipulation. To be saved, we must endure unto the end.

Romans 8:35-39
Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

As we examine the above quote, we can see, again, that what Paul wrote was in no way, shape, or form, a declaration of any guarantee, whatsoever. Rather, Paul was asking the question in order to share a most necessary attitude that all believers should harness and nurture. To believe otherwise is to blatantly contradict the following quoted.

Hebrews 6:4-8
For it is impossible for those who were

1) once enlightened, and

2)have tasted of the heavenly gift, and

3) were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And

4) have tasted the good word of God, and

5) the powers of the world to come,

If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:
But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

Hebrews 10:26-31
For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

As we can see from both accounts, a conscious decision was made on the part of the individual. In Hebrews 6, the focus is on the person that, on their own accord, falls away. In Hebrews 10, the focus is on the person that sins willfully.

“Become Love!”

Since: Jan 09

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#30362
Mar 18, 2013
 
Gary wrote:
Hi Lee:

Again your correct here when you stated God does not desire that any perish. In fact, God tells us He does not take any deleght in the death of the wicked. The reason being is, Mankind was once created in the image of God and to some degree mankind has a conscience even though he has harden his conscience. However, God is also a just God and He must punish wickedness and we see this fact through out the Bible.

The fact is, without God steping into the picture we all would be lost the reason being everyone of us is tainted and born in sin, Eph. 2:1, Romans 3:10-12, This is why Jesus said that you have not chosen me but I have chosen you. Jesus salvation was the same then and the same now because no one can come to Jesus unless the Father draws him, why? The reason is he is dead this is why I asked you the main foundation question is, are we born in sins and trspasses? Once one comes to grips with the fact that we are all in the same boat that is born into sin we are in rebelion against God from the start that is why God tells us that there is not one that will seek Him no not one, Rom. 3:10-12, The only reason why anyone will seek the true and living God is because God has already done the work of salvation so they will seek after God in Spirit and in truth the reason being God gave them a new heart to seek after God. God said a new heart I will put into you and a new Spirit I will put into you. God has to do it all thus He gets all the glory and that is how it should be to God be all the glory great things He has done not great things WE, I, ME, have done no way. God is the author and finsher of one's faith because if one is truly saved it was by the faith of Christ, Gal. 2:16 Thank you. Gary
Gary.

Not only did I explain Matthew 22:14, the same that declares that many shall be called, but few chosen, but I also explained who the characters are in the parable. What you posted, above, does not coincide with the parable, at all. As a matter of fact, what you posted doesn't coincide with any of the following...

Isaiah 55:6-7
Seek ye Yahoweh while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near.
Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto Yahoweh, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.

Deuteronomy 4:29-31
But if from thence thou shalt seek Yahoweh thy God, thou shalt find him, if thou seek him with all thy heart and with all thy soul.
When thou art in tribulation, and all these things are come upon thee, even in the latter days, if thou turn to Yahoweh thy God, and shalt be obedient unto his voice;
(For Yahoweh thy God is a merciful God;) he will not forsake thee, neither destroy thee, nor forget the covenant

Isaiah 45:22
Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.

Ezekiel 33:11
Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord Yahoweh, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die..?

Ezekiel 18:21-23
But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live.
Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord Yahoweh: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?

Ezekiel 18:27-28
..when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive.
Because he considereth, and turneth away from all his transgressions that he hath committed, he shall surely live, he shall not die.

Ezekiel 18:30-31
Repent... make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die?

“Become Love!”

Since: Jan 09

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#30363
Mar 18, 2013
 
@Gary

Psalm 51:17

New International Version--
My sacrifice, O God, is a broken spirit; a broken and contrite heart you, God, will not despise.

New Living Translation--
The sacrifice you desire is a broken spirit. You will not reject a broken and repentant heart, O God.

Holman Christian Standard Bible--
The sacrifice pleasing to God is a broken spirit. God, You will not despise a broken and humbled heart.

International Standard Version--
True sacrifice to God is a broken spirit. A broken and chastened heart, God, you will not despise.

NET Bible--
The sacrifices God desires are a humble spirit--O God, a humble and repentant heart you will not reject.

GOD'S WORD Translation--
The sacrifice pleasing to God is a broken spirit. O God, you do not despise a broken and sorrowful heart.

Douay-Rheims Bible--
A sacrifice to God is an afflicted spirit: a contrite and humbled heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.

King James Bible--
The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.
__________

In case Psalm 51:17 is misunderstood and misinterpreted, we should be able to see, now, that Father does not cause such humility to take place within us. Rather, it's these things that Father expects of us, as a conscious decision made, and appreciates.

“Become Love!”

Since: Jan 09

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#30364
Mar 18, 2013
 
@Gary

You quoted John 6:44. This says...

"No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day."

QUESTIONS: What does this mean? How does Father draw us?

ANSWER: Matthew 9:13
I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Yes. It's by the teachings of His only-begotten Son that Father draws us. During the generations of the old covenant, it was written (with my emphasis), "Yahoweh hath appeared of old unto me, saying, Yea, I have loved thee with an everlasting love: therefore with lovingkindness have I DRAWN thee (Jer 31:3)." And during, and for, the generations of the new covenant, it was written, "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life (John 3:16)." Essentially, then, this drawing began the very first time our anointed Savior said, "Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand (Matt 4:17)." And when his apostles began preaching, during Pentecost, Peter instructed the crowd, repeating the instruction of our anointed Savior and saying, "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins!" Even after this, we read of Paul giving the same instruction when he preached, "..but now [God] commandeth all men every where to repent: Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead (Acts 17:30-31)." And in this, I remind you of Romans 10:14-15.

"How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
And how shall they preach, except they be sent?"

“Become Love!”

Since: Jan 09

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#30368
Mar 18, 2013
 
@dr Shrink

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