Since: Aug 11

Santa Cruz, CA

#30326 Mar 16, 2013
DOG wrote:
<quoted text>
Well what a coincidence! You don't exist, either, so who cares?
You have a point there. I don't care. Do you?

Since: Aug 11

Santa Cruz, CA

#30327 Mar 16, 2013
Brother Lee Love wrote:
<quoted text>What I'm trying to show Gary is Job's perceptions of the accounts that befell him. My reason is to show Gary that repentance, good works, so forth and so on, are personal choices made by us and not magically induced. I'm trying to show Gary that there are verses that might seem to be suggesting such things, but only if we don't take the bible as a whole into consideration; comparing spiritual with spiritual. Ancient Israel suffered much and not because the most High made them rebellious and unrighteous, but because they made a conscious decision to be rebellious and unrighteous. And when ancient Israel was blessed, it's because they made a conscious decision and effort to live righteously.
Gary doesn't realize that he only strengthens the arguments of the opposition by even suggesting that nothing occurs by free-will. It's these same issues that unbelievers and atheists have been relying on to oppose the claims made by believers. It's his misunderstanding of Romans 9,for one, that fuels his belief. And, perhaps, you've noticed that I have addressed some of the scriptures he quotes to show him his error, but he neither, addresses my assertions to show where I'm mistaken, nor changes his view.
Good points IMHO.
Gary

Buffalo, NY

#30328 Mar 16, 2013
Hi Lee:

I understand that you disagree. However, if you can could you show me om my last two posts where I misunderstood those verses I have shared this would be a great help. Thank you. Gary
Gary wrote:
Hi Lee:
Good questions.
You number one question is, no. When one is saved he will work out what God has worked in him this is why God tells us to work out our sallvation with fear and tremblling for IT IS CHRIST IN YOU THAT WORKETH THE GOOD WORK.
When one is truly saved he will fall from time to time because as long as he is still in this flesh he is subject at times to the lust of the flesh this is why God tells us to mortify or put to death the works of the flesh, the believer is not sinnless in this body but as he grows in grace he wll sin less and less.
Your next question, yes. To be righteous means to have right standing on the merits of what Christ has already done on behalf of the one God sheds His grace upon.
Those that are unrighteous or unjust they will be unless God saves them. The righteous will be righteous still.
"He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be be filthy still: and he that is righteous let him be righteous still: and he that is holy: let him be holy still." Rev. 22:11
You see Lee, I found out by the mercy and grace of God without God I cannot do anything that is righteous it is only the work of God that produces the good work in me it is not by the power of myflesh that is righteous no way! We do not perfect the flesh by the power of the flesh do we? I thought we did at one time when I used to believe in this do it your self have it your way self help gospel I used to believe we had to do this we had to do that. No, Lee, I had it all wrong it is only Christ in me that doeth the good work. we are not saved by the righteousness which we have done but by His mercy He saved me and has done the righteous work in me. Many of the scribes and pharisses thought they were righteous also but it was their self righteousness not God doing the good work in them it was in them that thought they could take it upon themselves and do the good work in the power of their own flesh, this is where I used to be Lee, I had my own self righteousness but that was the problem it was mine and not God's work in me that doeth the good work. This is why many will be shocked in that day thinking they were saved because they said, Lord, Lord, HAVE WE NOT declared they word? Have WE not cast out devils in thy name? Have not I done many wonderful works in thy name. You see Lee, many think of themselves saved by what they, I, I, ME, ME, has done but Jesus exposed their hearts and told them, I NEVER knew you depart from me you that work wickedness. You see they NEVER knew the Lord they were never saved they had a do it your self have it your way self help gospel that exalts self not Christ. You see Lee, by the mercy of God I found out that if I can do all these goods works by my power and not of the fruit of the Holy Spirit then it would mean that I did not need Christ to save me because I, I, ME, ME, could do the good work in the power of my flesh. This is when I knew I had a false man made do it your self gosple that was cattered to me what I liked this is why we are all born dead this is why we will never seek after God on His terms there is not one that will seek after Him no not one, Romans 3:10-12. The reason being Lee, I found out I was born dead and in my sins and I know now a dead man cannot come alive and accept Jesus why? Because he is dead, dead, dead. Eph. 2:1. This is why Jesus said, You have NOT CHOSEN ME BUT I HAVE CHOSEN YOU,,, John 15:16. It is all God''s work thus God gets all the glory and that is how it should be this is what I have learned only by the mercy, grace, and love of God. Great questions. Gary. 1 John 3:13-15.
<quoted text>
Gary

Buffalo, NY

#30329 Mar 16, 2013
Hi Lee:

As you can see in those verses you have shared the question is asked, what shall WE DO, that we might work the works of God?

Jesus tells us that we cannot do nothing the reason being it is all the work of God that one can believe on Him as we see in the next verse. Jesus said that this is the work of God that you believe on Him.

Question, did Jesus say this IS THE WORK OF MAN THAT YOU BELIEVE ON HIM whm you have sent.

Question, who's work does Jesus say it is for anyone to believe on Him? Is it man's work or is it God's work to believe on Him? Thank you. Gary 1 John:3-13-15.
Brother Lee Love wrote:
John 6:28-29
Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God [that ye might work], that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
Gary

Buffalo, NY

#30330 Mar 16, 2013
Hi Lee:

You asked the following verses who is to balme?

Lee, then your closing comments were concerning Job 2:6-7 where God tells Satan concerning His servnant Job

,,, Behold he is in thy hand but save his life.

Question, could Satan have kiiled Job with these plagues?

Your closing statement,

OK, To me it is obvious that in both accounts it was Satan that cursed Job.

Why then did God say in, Job 2:3 concerning Job, God asked Satan this question,

",,,Hast thou considered Job MY SERVANT Job, that there is none like him in the earth?,,

Question, Was Job already a servant of God a child of God before this test that God had allowed for Job to go through?

Qestion, where does it state that Satan has the power to curse anyone? Is not God the judge of all who has the power to both cast soul and body into hell? for our God is a consuming fire, Heb. 12:29. Thank you for your input. Gary. 1 John 3:13-15

“Become Love!”

Since: Jan 09

Nowhere/Now here

#30331 Mar 16, 2013
@Gary

1John 3:7
Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

I know you saw the above quote in my previous posts, Gary. It's odd that you had nothing to say in regards to its content. But, based on 1John 3:7 and with all due respect, it's become painfully obvious, to me, that you've been deceived. According to what's written and without a doubt, "he that doeth righteousness is righteous." The following scriptures should explain my position and how you're putting too much emphasis on the verses you quoted in your post. Consider the following, please and if you will.
__________

The following verses use what's called "possessive pronouns." These are to indicate ownership by the subject. In the following examples, the possessive pronouns used are "ye" and "your," which I emphasized by typing the word in all capitals. The term "I" is used numerous times, too. But, the term, of course, is already capitalized.

Deuteronomy 4:5-8
Behold, I have taught you statutes and judgments, even as Yahoweh my God commanded me, that YE should do so in the land whither ye go to possess it.
[YE] Keep therefore and [YE] do them; for this is YOUR wisdom and YOUR understanding in the sight of the nations, which shall hear all these statutes, and say, Surely this great nation is a wise and understanding people.
For what nation is there so great, who hath God so nigh unto them, as the LORD our God is in all things that we call upon him for?
And what nation is there so great, that hath statutes and judgments so righteous as all this law, which I set before you this day?

Matthew 5:16
Let YOUR light so shine before men, that they may see YOUR good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

John 15:8
Herein is my Father glorified, that YE bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.

1Peter 2:12
Having YOUR conversation honest among the Gentiles: that, whereas they speak against you as evildoers, they may by YOUR good works, which they shall behold, glorify God in the day of visitation.
__________

And then, Paul declared.....

1Corinthians 4:15-16
For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.
Wherefore I beseech you, be ye followers of ME.

1Corinthians 11:1
Be ye followers of ME, even as I also am of Christ.

Philippians 3:17
Brethren, be followers together of ME, and mark them which walk so as ye have US for an ensample.
__________

As we can see, Paul utilized the term "me" in every verse. Take note, though, that Paul went so far as to instruct believers to follow him! But, why would he instruct believers in a manner that suggests that he was intentionally exalting himself? ANSWER: Because, he wasn't, actually.

As we can see, Paul's instruction was based on the fact that he followed the example set forth by our anointed Savior. Therefore, he considered himself an appropriate example for believers to follow, as well. In essence, by following Paul's example would cause believers to follow the example originally set forth by our anointed Savior. So, essentially, Paul wasn't exalting himself. Paul was, in fact, given glory to our anointed Savior which, in turn, is giving glory to Father. And this brings us to the first verses I quoted, namely 1John 3, Deuteronomy 4, Matthew 5, John 15, and 1Peter 2.

As we've read, these verses contain the possessive pronouns "ye," "your," and "I". And again, these might suggest exaltation on our part. But, as we can see, even though it's us that performs righteousness, we only do so by what we've learned by Father. Therefore, Father receives the glory for our righteous behavior. How much more glory will Father receive when people learn that we've chosen to behave righteously because we love one another and our Godhead?!

“Become Love!”

Since: Jan 09

Nowhere/Now here

#30332 Mar 17, 2013
@Gary

The following quotes are the different versions of John 6:29 interpreted. You'll notice that each puts the "work of God" as a performance expected of us by Him and not a performance on His part.

New Living Translation
Jesus told them, "This is the only work God wants from you: Believe in the one he has sent."

NET Bible
Jesus replied, "This is the deed God requires--to believe in the one whom he sent."

Weymouth New Testament
"This," replied Jesus, "is above all the thing that God requires--that you should be believers in Him whom He has sent."

King James Bible
Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
__________

Now, if you don't mind, let us examine the account.

John 6:26-34
Jesus answered them and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Ye seek me, not because ye saw the miracles, but because ye did eat of the loaves, and were filled.
Labour (Gr. ergazesthe) not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.
Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work (Gr. ergazometha) the works (Gr. erga) of God?
Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work (Gr. ergon) of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
They said therefore unto him, What sign shewest thou then, that we may see, and believe thee? what dost thou work (Gr. ergaze)?

Let's stop here, for now. First, I showed the Greek terms, above, to show the similarities. The reason I did this is because of the term "Labour" in verse 27. It was here that the subject of "work" began. And here, our anointed Savior said, "Labour not." Accordingly, then, our anointed Savior said, "Work not." And it was this instruction that provoked the question, "What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?" Essentially, the men were asking what works were expected of them, by Father, so that they could receive the "meat which endureth unto everlasting life". In this, our anointed Savior said, "This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent." In other words and even according to the different interpreted versions I quoted, what our anointed Savior was saying was that the work that Father required of them in order to receive this "meat which endureth unto everlasting life" was to believe in His only-begotten Son. Upon hearing this, the men asked, "What sign shewest thou then, that we may see, and believe thee? what dost thou work?" In other words, they wanted proof that he was, in fact, "the Son of man" whom "shall give unto [them]," and the one that "God the Father sealed." And this brings us to verses 31 to 34.

Our fathers did eat manna in the desert; as it is written, He gave them bread from heaven to eat.
Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven.
For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.
Then said they unto him, Lord, evermore give us this bread.

As we can see, the men used Moses as their example, citing that the manna was Moses' proof that he was of "God." But, our anointed Savior corrected their erroneous perception. In this, the men performed the "work of God" that was required of them, by Father, and called him "Lord." They performed this "work of God" by asking our anointed Savior, personally, for "this bread."

John 6:29
Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God [THAT YE MIGHT WORK], that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
Student

Mexico

#30333 Mar 17, 2013
Hi Gary,

Jehovah God, who sets all the terms for salvation, commands that we accept in faith the word, namely, that Jesus Christ is Lord and that God raised him up from the dead.

This is exactly what Jesus told the Jews in answer to their question:“What shall we do to work the works of God?” Jesus said:“This is the work of God, that you exercise faith in him whom that One sent forth.”(John 6:28, 29)

“Become Love!”

Since: Jan 09

Nowhere/Now here

#30334 Mar 17, 2013
Gary wrote:
Hi Lee:
You asked the following verses who is to balme?
Lee, then your closing comments were concerning Job 2:6-7 where God tells Satan concerning His servnant Job
,,, Behold he is in thy hand but save his life.
Question, could Satan have kiiled Job with these plagues?
Your closing statement,
OK, To me it is obvious that in both accounts it was Satan that cursed Job.
Why then did God say in, Job 2:3 concerning Job, God asked Satan this question,
",,,Hast thou considered Job MY SERVANT Job, that there is none like him in the earth?,,
Question, Was Job already a servant of God a child of God before this test that God had allowed for Job to go through?
Qestion, where does it state that Satan has the power to curse anyone? Is not God the judge of all who has the power to both cast soul and body into hell? for our God is a consuming fire, Heb. 12:29. Thank you for your input. Gary. 1 John 3:13-15
You missed the point of my post, Gary. First, though, yes. Job was Father's servant even before he suffered. And secondly, I used the term "curse" to indicate a cause of suffering such as defined at Deuteronomy 28. Satan caused Job to suffer. In that, Satan "cursed" Job. Now, examine my post again, please and if you will.
__________

I ask, Gary, of the following verses, who's to blame?

Job 1:12
And Yahoweh said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of Yahoweh.

At this point, Job lost his children and his property.

Job 1:21
[Job] said, Naked came I out of my mother's womb, and naked shall I return thither: Yahoweh gave, and Yahoweh hath taken away; blessed be the name of Yahoweh.

Job 2:6-7
And Yahoweh said unto Satan, Behold, he is in thine hand; but save his life.
So went Satan forth from the presence of Yahoweh, and smote Job with sore boils from the sole of his foot unto his crown.

Job 2:9-10
Then said his wife unto him, Dost thou still retain thine integrity? curse God, and die.
But [Job] said unto her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil?
__________

Okay. To me, it's obvious that in both accounts, it was Satan that caused Job to suffer. But, after both accounts, Job said "Yahoweh gave, and Yahoweh hath taken away," and "What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil?" So, was "God" to blame, or was Satan to blame? And I'm aware that "God" allowed Satan to cause Job's sufferings. That's not my question. My intention, though, is to reveal Job's perception of the accounts and how his perceptions are common throughout the bible.
__________

My reason for bringing this account up was so that we can understand how that even though it was Satan that caused Job's sufferings, that Job-- not blamed-- but attributed his sufferings to Father. And this attribution is found throughout the bible. Therefore, for any verse that seems to imply that nothing is in our control, or that we've no free-will, the reason is because in many cases, occurrences and actions are attributed to Father, regardless. Consider the following, please and if you will.

1Kings 19:11-12
Yahoweh passed by, and a great and strong wind rent the mountains, and brake in pieces the rocks before Yahoweh; but Yahoweh was not in the wind: and after the wind an earthquake; but Yahoweh was not in the earthquake:
And after the earthquake a fire; but Yahoweh was not in the fire: and after the fire a still small voice.

As we can see, all these occurrences took place, but the most High was not the cause of any of them.

Since: Aug 11

Santa Cruz, CA

#30335 Mar 17, 2013
Student wrote:
Hi Gary,
Jehovah God, who sets all the terms for salvation, commands that we accept in faith the word, namely, that Jesus Christ is Lord and that God raised him up from the dead.
This is exactly what Jesus told the Jews in answer to their question:“What shall we do to work the works of God?” Jesus said:“This is the work of God, that you exercise faith in him whom that One sent forth.”(John 6:28, 29)
I doubt God commands anything. Religious men have formed such beliefs. There is no real evidence they are correct in those beliefs.
Gary

Buffalo, NY

#30336 Mar 17, 2013
Hi Student:

You are correct of course that God sets all the terms for salvation. However, we cannot accept the faith why? Because the Bible the word of God is very clear that we are all born dead in sins, Eph. 2:1 this is the foundation that one can build upon. First Jesus must CHOOSE us we cannot choose Him on His terms why? Because we are dead in sins. A dead man cannot come alive spiritually because he is dead he needs a resrrection and the only one that can do this is the Lord this is why Jesus said, You have NOT chosen me but I have chosen you and I have ordained you that you should go and bear forth much fruit. This fruit. God speaks of the fruit of the Holy Spirit found in, Gal. 5:22-23, and one of these fruits is called [FAITH] we cannot muster up faith to believe, why? Because we are dead in sin. God must do all the work as Jesus said This is the WORK OF GOD THAT YOU BELIEVE ON Him whom He has sent. John 6:29

So the question I had to come to grips with Student was this, The true test is this, will I believe by God's mercy alone these truth's or will I hold unto my own way? I know I was in this do it your self help gospel but lost, as I went into great detail with Lee showing the two different [I WILL'S] thus far no one was able to show me in those verses I have shared that I was wrong. Now I don't care if I am wrong there is no pride issue with me here all that I am seeking is the truth that can set the captives free the fact is, one cannot even repent unless God gives him the gift to repent, if not he will contine to be taken captive by Satan at his will this is what God declares in, 2 Tim. 2:25-26.

If God does not do all the work for ones salvation then there is no hope we are building our house on sand this is what I have done for years and I could see only by the mercy of God that I had a works gospel You see if I can do something by my own power to get saved then this would mean Jesus died in vain God forbid! This is what I believed because it does not strip man from his pride I was knee deep in my pride. However, God tells us He must predesinate us and that was already done before the foundation of the world, Eph. 1:4-6. This gospell that I am declaring I know is not poplar because it leaves [self] out of the equation does it not? You see we do not like this gospel of the soverignty of God that He alone is in full control who will be saved and God made sure that nothing would frustrate His plan not even our will cannot frustate God's plan man hates this idea that you mean I am just to wait upon God for Him to save me if it be His good pleasure? Yes, that is what Romans 9:11-24 declares. I know most will not read those verses because it does not line up with their plan of salvation, I fully understand I was there I know. however, many do not have a clue what I am declaring unless God makes His word real to us. You see in our own will we like to pick and chose what verses we like that is tailored made just for our plan. However, we have to take everything into account. This is why I ask anyone out there if they have a question and verse that seems to say otherwise then please share it and if I cannot explain it then I have to do more home work on the isse. However, I try to answer in detail those asking me a question or two as Lee had asked a few posts ago and I believe I answered them in detail. The problem is, many cannot answer any of my questions and I understand. Thank you for your input. Gary
Student wrote:
Hi Gary,
Jehovah God, who sets all the terms for salvation, commands that we accept in faith the word, namely, that Jesus Christ is Lord and that God raised him up from the dead.
This is exactly what Jesus told the Jews in answer to their question:“What shall we do to work the works of God?” Jesus said:“This is the work of God, that you exercise faith in him whom that One sent forth.”(John 6:28, 29)
Gary

Buffalo, NY

#30337 Mar 17, 2013
Hi Lee:

You are coorect in declaring that nothing is in our control I fully agree with this truth. God is the one who is in full control and this also includes our salvation there is no mention of [free will] as you see God knew that Job would be faithful when tested even at the lose of his family why Did God know this? The reason being God already saved him this is why God told Satan he is in thy hand only do not take his life. The fact is, Satan had to obey God if he liked it or not. You are correct everything is in the control of God. Fact is, nothing can separate the believer from the Father no not one as we see in, Rom. 8:35-37

"Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril? or sword? As it is written, for thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him that loved us."

You see Lee, we can see Job went through all these trials and tribulations and testing and why was he still faithful was it because his own will? No way! It was because nothing can separte the true believer from the love of Christ why? Becuase God tells us that he is sealed unto the day of redeemtion that is, until God raises him up and gives him a glorified body. You see the harmony the cohesiveness in all this? God is indeed as you said is in full control nothing can separte a true believer from God's love nothing! This is great news is it not for the true believer. Again, thank you for your input. Gary. 1 John 3:13-15.

Since: Aug 11

Santa Cruz, CA

#30338 Mar 17, 2013
Gary wrote:
Hi Student:
You are correct of course that God sets all the terms for salvation. However, we cannot accept the faith why? Because the Bible the word of God is very clear that we are all born dead in sins, Eph. 2:1 this is the foundation that one can build upon. First Jesus must CHOOSE us we cannot choose Him on His terms why? Because we are dead in sins. A dead man cannot come alive spiritually because he is dead he needs a resrrection and the only one that can do this is the Lord this is why Jesus said, You have NOT chosen me but I have chosen you and I have ordained you that you should go and bear forth much fruit. This fruit. God speaks of the fruit of the Holy Spirit found in, Gal. 5:22-23, and one of these fruits is called [FAITH] we cannot muster up faith to believe, why? Because we are dead in sin. God must do all the work as Jesus said This is the WORK OF GOD THAT YOU BELIEVE ON Him whom He has sent. John 6:29
So the question I had to come to grips with Student was this, The true test is this, will I believe by God's mercy alone these truth's or will I hold unto my own way? I know I was in this do it your self help gospel but lost, as I went into great detail with Lee showing the two different [I WILL'S] thus far no one was able to show me in those verses I have shared that I was wrong. Now I don't care if I am wrong there is no pride issue with me here all that I am seeking is the truth that can set the captives free the fact is, one cannot even repent unless God gives him the gift to repent, if not he will contine to be taken captive by Satan at his will this is what God declares in, 2 Tim. 2:25-26.
If God does not do all the work for ones salvation then there is no hope we are building our house on sand this is what I have done for years and I could see only by the mercy of God that I had a works gospel You see if I can do something by my own power to get saved then this would mean Jesus died in vain God forbid! This is what I believed because it does not strip man from his pride I was knee deep in my pride. However, God tells us He must predesinate us and that was already done before the foundation of the world, Eph. 1:4-6. This gospell that I am declaring I know is not poplar because it leaves [self] out of the equation does it not? You see we do not like this gospel of the soverignty of God that He alone is in full control who will be saved and God made sure that nothing would frustrate His plan not even our will cannot frustate God's plan man hates this idea that you mean I am just to wait upon God for Him to save me if it be His good pleasure? Yes, that is what Romans 9:11-24 declares. I know most will not read those verses because it does not line up with their plan of salvation, I fully understand I was there I know. however, many do not have a clue what I am declaring unless God makes His word real to us. You see in our own will we like to pick and chose what verses we like that is tailored made just for our plan. However, we have to take everything into account. This is why I ask anyone out there if they have a question and verse that seems to say otherwise then please share it and if I cannot explain it then I have to do more home work on the isse. However, I try to answer in detail those asking me a question or two as Lee had asked a few posts ago and I believe I answered them in detail. The problem is, many cannot answer any of my questions and I understand. Thank you for your input. Gary
<quoted text>
Your assumption is that The Bible is actually God's rule book full of terms and conditions. This is something I doubt very much. The Bible is written by men and is based upon their assumptions as to the nature of God.
Gary

Buffalo, NY

#30339 Mar 17, 2013
Hi Lee:

Sorry I made the mistake in you saying nothing is in control you said it seems to imply nothing is in our control. However, the fact is as the exampe I gave everything is in control of God He will have mercy on whom He will have mercy if we like this or not this is what God is declaring and I can tell you Lee, at one time I did not like this at all you mean I am just to waith and both hope for the salvation of the Lord? Lam3:26, declares this truth Lee and when I read verses like this and many others I had to bow down to God because He is the only one who truly is in control. Lee, our free will as you declare may seem in control but in reality it is not, one may want to take a trip he goes to the airport and gets out of the car and breaks his leg there goes his freel will, one may want to wear his best shirt puts it on and sees an ink spot on it there goes his free will. You see Lee, our will is very weak at best. now concerning a [free will] to accept Jesus we have none why? Because the Bible is very, very, clear that we are born dead and in sins we need a reserrrection Lee, and this must take the miricle and work of God to save one. God is the one who is in full control who will be saved and nothing will stop this not man;s so called [free will] I am sorry Lee but I am speaking for myself here I know I have been there done that gospel and I can tell you by the word of God it is as false as a three dollar bill because it is all built on the pride of ME, ME, I, I. and I know Lee we do not like this fact at least I know at one time I did not like this at all but I knew I could nkt explain all those verses that has to do with God's will not mine as words such as elect, chosen, ordain, chose, called predestinate, election, and such I know God did not use those words just to fill up space did He? No! they all have a profound meaning and by the mercy, grrace of God we can see that it is NOT of him that willeth! Romans 9:15-16, We cannot will our self to get saved if we like it or not it is impossible why? Because we are all in the same boat we are dead and in sins, Eph. 2:1. Now I know this went against my do it your self help gospel but God had to give me a broken and a contrite heart to bow to His word. Thank you. Gary. 1 John 3:13-15.
Gary

Buffalo, NY

#30340 Mar 17, 2013
Dear all:

I am speaking from my own convictions here I am not trying to tie this dialog to no one it is just my walk with the Lord thus far. I am greatful that we are on the most important topic and that is, the true nature of God's salvation program.

I must admit that I find it just so hard to see at this time in my life that anyone can
truly believe that God alone is not in full
control of man's salvation. Since I have been on both sides of this very important issue because it has to do with salvation there could not be a more important subject and if we have the wrong foundation then we are building on sand it will never stand the test of God's all knowing man's heart from before the very foundation of the world.

To think at this stage of man life that man has the control of his salvation just seems so very strange to me to even grasp this because for me looking back at one time I used to believe this shows me just how arroagant and proud I was thinking I had the say in the matter of my so called salvation this is hard for me to see this now knowing it is all in the hands of the Almighty.

To me it is like this, did I have any say in my birth? Did I decide to choose the parents I wanted? Did I have the power to be born into this world at a certain time?

The answer to all these questions we know is very basic at best why no we had no say in any of this why all this would be down right silly would it not to think we had any say in this matter?

Now this is exactly what people are saying when they think that it is all up to them to become [born again] they had no say in the first birth at all yet some believe they have all the say in the second birth. They do not see that in both cases and in both births it is all a miricle work of God.

To declare with all convictions thinking it is all up to our [free will] that determis our salvation is the same as saying in the first birth it is all up to us to decide when we would be born to whom we would be born to and in what time we would be born after all this is what this [free will] is teaching it is all up to our own [free will] to get born again. I cannot believe the blindness in this type of thinking I cannot believe at one time I was this blind, proud, and arroagant to really think that the power and miricle of salvation of being [born again] was all left up to my own free will?

As I said before, if it was all up to our free will none of us would ever chose God on His terms because it is a gospel that strips mankind from all pride it gives them a broken and humble and a contrie heart that only God can give in the first place. To think our [free will] is all powerful is now silly to me if it was not so sad that I to used to believe this doctrine. I can tell you without any doubt I was not a true child of God yet I was a deeacon in the church with good stannding with the people. However, in God's sight I was lost headed for the wrath of God. Now I did not know that God would step into my life the way He did and turned me up-side down in my thinking I thought I have arrived? I was farther from the true gospel at any time when I was knee deep into this do it your self, have it your way self help gospel, I had what I would call a MC donald's type of salvation it was [have it your way salvation] It
was all based on what I, I, ME, ME, has done. I exalted myself way above God as in Isa. 14:13-16. same spirit that made Satan fall that was the five [ I WILL'S] of Satan, same spirit I had I will accept Jesus as Satan said I will be like the most High, I said I WILL accept Jesus now! all based on my pride and arrogance. Now only by the mercy, grace, and love of God I can see once I was blind, i just did not know just how blind I used to be. Thank you. Gary. 1 John 3:13-15.
Gary

Buffalo, NY

#30341 Mar 17, 2013
Hi Waste:

I am sorry but I do not believe the word of God is just assumptions here is what God tells us.

"For the prophecy came not in old time by THE WILL OF MAN: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Spirit." 2 Peter 1:21.

Waste, by God's mercy I believe His word and there will come a day when every kneee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to God be the glory. I will not ever speak against the Almighty when He says something I believe without any doubt that God could make sure He preserved His word after all He is the God who brought this world into being by the power of His word. So who am I to speak against the Almighty to assume anything that He says is faulty? God forbid I bow to the word of God because it comes from the mouth of God by holy men of God and we can see in Jer. 36:1-2 that God commanded Jerimiah to write His words in a book and he did as commanded by God, so when we get to the end of the book in Rev. 22:18-19, God again, warns all not to add nor take away any of His words in this book we call the Bible or He will add the judgments to anyone who does that is in this book. I believe as God declares, Let God be true and every man a liar. God will have the final word on judgment day this is for sure if we believe it or not. Thank you. Gary. 1 John 3:13-15
WasteWater wrote:
<quoted text>
Your assumption is that The Bible is actually God's rule book full of terms and conditions. This is something I doubt very much. The Bible is written by men and is based upon their assumptions as to the nature of God.

“Become Love!”

Since: Jan 09

Nowhere/Now here

#30342 Mar 17, 2013
@Gary

John 15:16
Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.
__________

As we delve into this verse, I believe it's vital that we recognize one important factor that many tend to overlook. This is called "speaker-audience relevance."

From as far back as John 13:1, we see that our anointed Savior and his apostles isolated themselves so that they can observe Passover. From this point on, then, we've no choice but to accept that our anointed Savior was speaking to no one else but his apostles. And as we read further, we can see that by the time we reach John 13:30, Judas had just been dismissed. Therefore, we've no reason to believe that anything said, by our anointed Savior and at this time, was even directed at and meant for Judas. From John 13:30 and on, our anointed Savior was speaking, specifically, to his apostles only. At this time, I'd like to say that all that's said from John 13:30 and on, by our anointed Savior, are beneficial as lessons for all, but not directed at and meant for all.

What our anointed Savior shared with his apostles during the meal was directed at, and meant for them and those that would share in the same vocation. This vocation is limited to what's called "the elect." And the elect, only, will serve as kings and priests in the coming kingdom. In this, not every believer is the elect. Nor should every believer expect to serve as a king and priest. And this brings us back to the above, quoted verse.

To his apostles and his apostles only, our anointed Savior said, "Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you." Now, does this mean that every believer was chosen to be a believer, or does this mean that our anointed Savior called the men that were present with him to become his apostles? The answer is the latter. As our anointed Savior began his ministry, he personally selected the men he wanted to follow him. And this is why he said what he did to them.

John 6:65-66
And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.

Point #1: Regardless, those that "walked no more with him" were still considered "disciples" of his.

Point #2: When our anointed Savior said that "no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father," this came to the fullest extent of fruition at Pentecost and the conversion of Cornelius. At these times, the message of repentance and the gospel was preached to all. The message of repentance and the gospel was, then, "given unto" all, "of [his] Father."

“Become Love!”

Since: Jan 09

Nowhere/Now here

#30343 Mar 17, 2013
@Gary

What we have, right now, is my posts addressing the verses you quote-- that you believe proves your beliefs accurate and true-- and the interpretations of the same verse-quotes. What we don't have, though, is any such address from you regarding the verses I quote and the interpretations of them.

You're, obviously, disagreeing with my posts, but you're not providing any valid explanations that express why you disagree. All you keep posting are testimonials while, almost, repeating yourself in every post.

Why, Gary, are your interpretations accurate and mine not? Help me to understand.
Gary

Buffalo, NY

#30344 Mar 17, 2013
Hi Lee:

You said concerning John 15:16 where Jesus said you have not chosen me but I have chosen you,,,"

You stated concerning this verses that everyone was not chosen to be a believer by Jesus."

I am sorry but you lost me right here in your reasoning.

Question, where in the word of God does it say that God did not chose all the elect?

Question, why would you add Pentecost to what God the Lord said when He said no man can come to me, unless the Father draw him.

Where do we see this is just refering to Pentecost?

I am sorry but I see no proof of this at all in the word of God what some will try to do is try to reason God's election program right out of the Bible I know at one time I did not understand this but I had to shelf it I never tried to reason those verses in a private interpitation for I know that no scripture is given for private interpitation. I believe when we allow for the word to declare what God is saying by doing word studies on the meaning of these words and see how God defines His own words then we will get a better picture in how God is using His word. To make a sweeping statement that God did not choose all the believers then this would mean there was more than one salvation would it not? Where does it state that those that did not walk any more with Jesus were still saved? Does this mean Judas was saved also? I am sorry but I see way to much of self in this reasoning, I just do not see it in the word please chapter and verse. Thank you. Gary
Brother Lee Love wrote:
@Gary
John 15:16
Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.
__________
As we delve into this verse, I believe it's vital that we recognize one important factor that many tend to overlook. This is called "speaker-audience relevance."
From as far back as John 13:1, we see that our anointed Savior and his apostles isolated themselves so that they can observe Passover. From this point on, then, we've no choice but to accept that our anointed Savior was speaking to no one else but his apostles. And as we read further, we can see that by the time we reach John 13:30, Judas had just been dismissed. Therefore, we've no reason to believe that anything said, by our anointed Savior and at this time, was even directed at and meant for Judas. From John 13:30 and on, our anointed Savior was speaking, specifically, to his apostles only. At this time, I'd like to say that all that's said from John 13:30 and on, by our anointed Savior, are beneficial as lessons for all, but not directed at and meant for all.
What our anointed Savior shared with his apostles during the meal was directed at, and meant for them and those that would share in the same vocation. This vocation is limited to what's called "the elect." And the elect, only, will serve as kings and priests in the coming kingdom. In this, not every believer is the elect. Nor should every believer expect to serve as a king and priest. And this brings us back to the above, quoted verse.
To his apostles and his apostles only, our anointed Savior said, "Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you." Now, does this mean that every believer was chosen to be a believer, or does this mean that our anointed Savior called the men that were present with him to become his apostles? The answer is the latter. As our anointed Savior began his ministry, he personally selected the men he wanted to follow him. And this is why he said what he did to them.
John 6:65-66
And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.
."

“Become Love!”

Since: Jan 09

Nowhere/Now here

#30345 Mar 17, 2013
@Gary

Lamentations 3:26
It is good that a man should both hope and quietly wait for the salvation of Yahoweh.

You quoted the above verse, Gary. But, I must ask, now...

How can any man "hope and quietly wait" for anything when everything is out of our control? What this verse doesn't say is that "God" will make us, or makes us, "hope and quietly wait" for His salvation.

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