What Your Church Won't Tell You by Da...

“Become Love!”

Since: Jan 09

Nowhere/Now here

#29410 Oct 10, 2012
dr Shrink wrote:
let me interupt you mister BLL
By all means.
dr Shrink wrote:
ancient greek koine not written language,mostly only spoken by peasants
have 2 meaning,phisical and spiritual meanings,
I agree. I, personally and constantly, refer to the Greek texts to determine both meanings. Along with my Greek searches, I rely on coinciding scriptures.
dr Shrink wrote:
also Jesus spoken words doesn't support your explanation about FAITH,
Actually, they do. Our anointed Savior could have referred to the faith these people exhibited as from Father, or "Father's faith," but he didn't. He attributed their faith as being their own.
dr Shrink wrote:
sorry for sticking my nose between yours converstion,
Not a problem, dr Shrink. Your input is appreciated.
dr Shrink wrote:
I love you BLL,Gary,and Student,
and read all of your posts,
only english limitation allow me to read,and not mix
And I appreciate this, too. And the more you practice, the better you'll get.
dr Shrink wrote:
let me add, english word THRUOGH FAITH, doesn,t sound same in greek language,
I know what you meant by this. And it does.

I know that there are certain Greek terms that have numerous English terms to choose from, but that's when we must rely on context. In context, "grace through faith" doesn't mean that both are gifts. Faith in grace is required and expected of us.
dr Shrink wrote:
we are not able to have TRUE FAITH IS WE ARE NOT SAVED BY GRACE,
Since our anointed Savior died, we've all been saved by grace. Grace, all in all, is the temporary fulfillment of the wages for sin until the day of Judgment. Our anointed Savior accomplished this for us, with his own blood. In conclusion, grace is a gift from our Godhead. Faith is within us.
dr Shrink wrote:
our wickendess and complete corruption by Sin our nature is planted in our DNA FROM THE WOMB OF OUR MOTHERS PSALM 58;3.53;3 IS. 48;8
You misunderstand the psalm, dr Shrink. We inherit uncleanness from Adam in the same manner Levi paid tithes while in the loins of Abraham. The reason that "sin" and "sinner" are used in these verses is because, it's by sin that all became unclean. We inherit uncleanness, but not dishonor for our parents, or murder, or adultery, or stealing, or bearing false witness, or covetousness. In other words, at one years old, we're unclean, but we don't desire to commit adultery. Uncleanness is inherited. Sin is learned.

“ Xue Rengui”

Since: Oct 09

Khitan extraordinaire

#29411 Oct 10, 2012
Brother Lee Love wrote:
<quoted text>........ We inherit uncleanness, but not dishonor for our parents, or murder, or adultery, or stealing, or bearing false witness, or covetousness. In other words, at one years old, we're unclean, but we don't desire to commit adultery. Uncleanness is inherited. Sin is learned.


Hello Brother, good exchanges...and shortened post to isolate that which I'd like to elaborate, if I may...

This is key, and where >Free Will< comes into play...the "Choice". What you highlight in the above statement I like to term "Spiritual Genetics"- the propensity or "trait" exists, but will it manifest?

To illustrate ,simplistically, one may be genetically predisposed to be quite tall,yet never use that height to an advantage in the arena of sports(basketball)- instead >choosing< to become an accountant.

Likewise , we may possess a "sin nature" but are constantly choosing the manifestation of such through "personal sin", as you point out adultery, parental dishonour,ect.

It comes down to responsibility , is one responsible for their actions or are we mere automatons?

This really is the question in the freewill/hyper-Reformed debate.

Just me 2 wee pennies:)

“Become Love!”

Since: Jan 09

Nowhere/Now here

#29412 Oct 11, 2012
Senecus wrote:
Hello Brother, good exchanges...and shortened post to isolate that which I'd like to elaborate, if I may...
This is key, and where >Free Will< comes into play...the "Choice". What you highlight in the above statement I like to term "Spiritual Genetics"- the propensity or "trait" exists, but will it manifest?
To illustrate ,simplistically, one may be genetically predisposed to be quite tall,yet never use that height to an advantage in the arena of sports(basketball)- instead >choosing< to become an accountant.
Likewise , we may possess a "sin nature" but are constantly choosing the manifestation of such through "personal sin", as you point out adultery, parental dishonour,ect.
It comes down to responsibility , is one responsible for their actions or are we mere automatons?
This really is the question in the freewill/hyper-Reformed debate.
Just me 2 wee pennies:)
Greetings, salutations, and shalowm, Senecus.

You might not be aware of this, but I was taught and led exclusively by the Holy Spirit, so I can't be wrong! In turn, you can't be right!

Only kidding, Brother. hehe

Anyway, I don't believe that sin is "natural in us." I believe that the confusion arises because, rather than use the term "uncleanness," which is the fruit, the authors preferred the term "sin;" the root. Paul, too, made use of such general terminology that, sadly, causes much confusion. To me, a blink is natural. Scratching an itch while asleep is natural. Breathing is natural. We can try with all our might to refrain from breathing, or blinking. But, in the end, what's natural in us will win. These are actions, though, that require no forethought or planning. And in my humble opinion, what doesn't require forethought or planning is natural while all else is not.

I believe that what the authors were trying to convey is the extent of sin in our world, and the fact that all people (for the most part) are raised by sinners in a most sinful environment. Each generation, too, is worse than the last. In this sense, sin appears as if it's natural in us.

Our anointed Savior died free from sin. He, also, was born clean, or without blemish. But, had he been conceived by natural methods (by Joseph, literally), he would have been born unclean and blemished. So, regardless of whether he remained sinless or not wouldn't have mattered in the end. Had he been born unclean and blemished, as we all are, his sacrifice would have been useless and unacceptable, per the law. In my humble opinion, the mere fact that he was still tempted in all points (as we are) serves to prove that sin can't be natural in us. Had that been the case, then he couldn't have been tempted at all, having not inherited this sinful nature from Adam. This so-called "sinful nature," after all, is inherited through Adam and not Eve. In conclusion, this uncleanness is in the seed and not the egg.
Gary

Buffalo, NY

#29413 Oct 11, 2012
Hi Lee:

Your question:

[Would God not allow men to become believers by withholding His spiritual attubutes from them, then cast them into the lake of fire for their rejection?]

Lee, first I have asked you how does one recieve faith? You never answered any of my points in my last post to you why? I believe the reason why is and I understand because those verses I have shared shows faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. Lee, this hearing has to do with God appling His word to ones heart to give them spiritual ears to hear this is why in Rev. 2 and 3 Jesus tells us only those that has ears to hear let him hear what the Spirit saith. You see Lee, it is the work of God that one believes on the Lord this is just a basic biblical fact, John 6:29 you have not anwered any of the verses except for Hebrews 10:17 and I just explained this to you again Lee.

Now concerning your question I will answer this basic question.

Yes, God will have mercy on whom He will have mercy on Lee, the fact is, no one deserves salvation because the fact is, we are all born sinners you just do not see this fact in, Eph. 2:1-2, Romans 3:10-12.

Lee, when God tells us that there is no one that will seek after God no not one, God means this. Despite of the rebelion of man God will have a people for Himself. Now Lee it is not in man that can will to be saved this is a biblical fact.

"So then IT IS NOT OF HIM THAT WILLETH, nor of him that runneth, but of God that showeth mercy"

"Therefore hath He mercy on whom He will have mercy, and whom He will He hardeneth"

"Hath not the potter power of the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonor?"

"For the children being not born neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according TO ELECTION might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth"

"As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousnes with God? God forbid. For He saith to Moses, I WILL have mercy on whom I WILL have mercy, and I WILL have compassion on whom I WILL have copassion. So then IT IS NOT OF HIM THAT WILLETH,,," Rom.. 9:16, 18, 21, 13,14,15 Gary
Brother Lee Love wrote:
<quoted text>Incorrect, Gary.
Ephesians 2:8-9
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Not of works, lest any man should boast.
So you can understand, the word "through" is what makes you in error. If you were correct, the verse would read as such...
"For by grace are ye saved [AND] faith; and [THESE] not of yourselves:[THEY] are the [giftS] of God:
Not of works, lest any man should boast."
In actuality, we can remove the terms "through faith" from the verse and still come to the same conclusion. In other words, faith in grace could and should be automatically applied. It would read as such, though.
"For be grace are ye saved; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Not of works, lest any man should boast."
How, Gary, do we receive faith? According to Romans 10:17, "..faith cometh by hearing." I believe it's acceptable to include reading in this equation, too, as whether we're listening to a preacher (hearing), or reading, the message should be identical.
Again, I explained how that the fruit of the Spirit is identical, in meaning, to the result of when we allow the words our anointed Savior taught to lead us. In other words, being "led of the Spirit" means that we've made the words our anointed Savior taught our guide. When we accept the teachings of our anointed Savior, we learn to live in love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, and temperance. These attributes are not miraculously implanted into us, Gary.
Consider what you're saying, Gary. Would "God" not allow men to become believers by withholding His spiritual attributes from them, then cast them into the lake of fire for their rejection?
Gary

Buffalo, NY

#29414 Oct 11, 2012
Dear all:

I have given biblical examples that shows us that saving faith MUST come from God, these verses will not fade away below. We have to deal with them before one can move on. Gary
Gary wrote:
Dear all:
1- The first thing we all must come to grips with is this, before one is saved the Bible tells us we are dead in our sins, Eph. 2:1-2, Romans 3:10-12, this means we have before one is saved no spiritual life within us to reach out and accept Jesus as many falsely claim sad to say.
2- Many people cannot get past this foundational biblcal fact that there is no one that will seek after God no not one! Now I am not saying this God is in, Rom. 3:10-12. Many show great contempt for the grace of God they may say they believe in this or that but when it comes to these points that I will disuss they will show great contemt towards God's word. Now they will not show this dirictly but indirictly by slandering the one who does believe the grace and the faith is all the mercy and grace of God.
3- The faith that we must have to believe must come from the work of God not from any man this is very plain in John 6:29, it states very plainly that it is all the work of God that anyone can believe, why? Because before this we were dead in our sins and there is not one that will seek God no not one. That is, there is no one in himself that will seek after the true gospel of grace.
4- The faith that we need is the faith of Christ and this comes by the Spirit of God.
"Knowing that a man is not jusified by the works of the law, but by THE FAITH OF JESUS CHRIST, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the FAITH OF CHRIST, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law no flesh be justified" Gal. 2:16
Here God repeats this over twice that it is the FAITH OF CHRIST, not our faith, this is why Jesus is called in Heb. the author and finisher of our faith, Heb 12:2. He is the one who starts the faith to believe and He is the one who will finish this.
5- Now another major fact that many cannot come to grips with is, God had already chosen whom He will save from the foundation of the world this means before we were even born so this just takes out anything that we can do to merit salvation those that oppose this they oppose God not me. God is very clear that He had to accept us not us accepting Him He had too elect us, He had to adopt us into His family thus He gets all the glory.
"According as He HATH CHOSEN US in Him before THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD, that we shoud be holy and without blame before Him in love: Having PREDISTINATED us unto adoption of children by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to HIS GOOD PLEASURE OG HIS WILL. To the praise of the glory of His grace, wherein He MADE US ACCEPTED IN THE BELOVED." Ehp. 1:4-6.
6- Fact, no free will wants to believe these facts in God's word that it is God that must accept us not us accepting God and He did this before the foundation of the world this is when He elected those that would be saved.
7- So, in Romans 9:16 tells us plainly that it is NOT of him that will's to be saved but of God that showeth mercy.
8- Most hate this gospel unless God draws them to His salvation.
9- God in His love depiste our rebelion has chosen a people for Himself. Now I have no idea who He chose or did not chose or if He will ever chose this one ot that one this is all God's work we do not enter into this at all.
10- God tells us in Ezeak. 36 that it is He that must give us a new heart, it is God that must give us a want to to truly worship Him in Spirit and in truth, John 4:23, all that I can do is share the nature the best I can concerning the salvation of God's plain remember, this is not something I have made up these are God's words I am quoting from so I just hope the very best for all who are under the hearing of these words as your alone are reading them that the Spirit of God may quicken your heart also. Thank you. Gary
Gary

Buffalo, NY

#29415 Oct 11, 2012
Dear all:

Some cannot come to grips that mankind when they are born they are born into sin they are born sinners just because we do not see this act out right away we do see in a short time little Johnny wants his own way and if he does not get it he will yell, screem, hit, and so on this is the sin nature we recieve in Adam this is why the word declares that in Adam all die but in Christ Jesus all shall be made alive.

The problem with most [free willers] is, they cannot accept the fact that we are born sinners as the Bible clearly declares in Psalm 58:3-4

"The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies. The poison is like the poisin of a serpent: they are like the death adder that stoppeth her ears."

Here God likens mankind sinners from the womb, He even goes on and gives us an ugly picture of our state that is, we are like a poison serpent speaking lies right from the womb, now does anyone think it would be wise to pick up a baby poison ratler? Could you see many would like to think look at that baby posion snake lets pick this baby snake up. What do you think would happen? Yes, the snake would bite the posion into you that little baby snake? Yes, God likens our condition as this and most hate God's assesment of our human nature that we are born in sin and in trespasses the Bible declares. God must quicken us or make one alive in Him because we are DEAD, DEAD, DEAD!

"And you hath He quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;" Eph. 2:1.

Now the [free willers] sad to say hate this assisment but this is not my conclusion God tells us these facts to rebelous men who will not bow to His word no matter what one declares unless God steps in.

"As it is written, There is NONE RIGHTEOUS, NO NOT ONE: There is NONE that understandeth, there is NONE that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, They are together become unfrofitable; There is NONE that doeth good, NO, NOT ONE." Romans 3;10-12.

You see it is written in the word and most hate what is written in the word of God, there is NONE that will seek after God, why? Because we are all born dead in sins.

Fact, sin is very natural to us before we are saved because fact is, we are all in the same boat that is born in trespasses and in sins.

Now no matter what is written that is so plain to us in God's word the most intelegent person cannot see these most basic facts because they need spiritual ears and eyes to see and this can only take place when God has mercy on one and it is up to God not me nor any man to have mercy on whom He will have mercy and whom He will He also can harden, mankind hates this assesment and this is not to light of a word I mean they are poison snakes before God saves one this is the language of the Bible. You see mankind would like to think that there is some good in man they are not all that bad they can reach out and accept the Lord. Why this is like asking one in the ground who has been dead for years he is a dead corpse to wake up and accept your new life. Why that would be silly and yet most believe that they have the power to make themselves alive in Christ by their will when God tells us it is NOT of him that willeth fact! However, makind in their pride will say, how dare you tell me what I DID 10 years ago when I ACCEPTED Jesus did not take, how dare you say this!

Now I fully understand where they are coming from I to was there in the free will do it your self have it your way self help gospel plan, but I can tell you the word says otherwise and your being duped this is a fact this is what made Satan fall that is, his pride when he said five times in Isa. 14 the five [i will's] I will be like the most high God, same spirit, I WILL accept Jesus. You see there is another five [I WILL'S] and that is in Romans 9:16-17. which I WILL, will you believe in? Thank you. Gary
Gary

Buffalo, NY

#29416 Oct 11, 2012
Hi Lee:

Here was my questions here below maybe you missed them can you answer them biblically? Thank you. Gary
Gary wrote:
Hi Lee:
I can agree with much here. However, the point in view here is how does one arrive at faith? Is it from himself? Or is it all of the work of God? Do we have any part in getting this faith? We have to go back to the start. Thank you. Gary
<quoted text>

“Become Love!”

Since: Jan 09

Nowhere/Now here

#29417 Oct 11, 2012
Gary wrote:
Hi Lee:
Here was my questions here below maybe you missed them can you answer them biblically? Thank you. Gary
Following is the post that addressed your questions.
__________

Gary wrote: Hi Lee:
I wrote: Greetings, salutations, and shalowm, Gary.

Gary wrote: I can agree with much here.
I wrote: Excellent.

Gary wrote: However,
I wrote: However?

Gary wrote: the point in view here is how does one arrive at faith?
I wrote: By hearing. Romans 10:17

Gary wrote: Is it from himself?
I wrote: Yes.

Gary wrote: Or is it all of the work of God?
I wrote: No. Faith is within us.

Gary wrote: Do we have any part in getting this faith?
I wrote: Yes.

Gary wrote: We have to go back to the start.
I wrote: Let's begin, then.

Gary wrote: Thank you. Gary
I wrote: You're welcome. Brother Lee Love.

If what you say is true, Gary, then the following verses either, are grossly misinterpreted, or are useless.

Matthew 8:10
When Yahowshua heard it, he marvelled, and said unto them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.

QUESTION: If this centurion received faith by Father, then why would Yahowshua react the way he did? Wouldn't he have expected it?

Matthew 9:22, 29
But Yahowshua turned him about, and when he saw her, he said, Daughter, be of good comfort; THY faith hath made thee whole. And the woman was made whole from that hour.

Then touched he their eyes, saying, According to YOUR faith be it unto you.

QUESTION: Why would Yahowshua mislead these people by making them believe that faith is their own attribute?

Matthew 15:28
Then Yahowshua answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that hour.

QUESTION: Why did Yahowshua attribute this faith to this woman, a Gentile?

There are more, as I'm sure you know. I feel that these are enough, though. Following, now, are verses that has our anointed Savior rebuking people for their lack of faith.

Matthew 6:30
Matthew 8:26
Matthew 14:31
Matthew 16:8
Mark 4:40
Luke 8:25
Luke 12:28

QUESTION: Would our anointed Savior be a righteous and just judge if he rebuked anyone for their lack of faith when, in actuality, it was Father that didn't bless them with faith?

Luke 18:8
I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?

QUESTION: Would Yahowshua ask anyone anything regarding matters that was out of their control?

What say you, Gary?

“Become Love!”

Since: Jan 09

Nowhere/Now here

#29418 Oct 11, 2012
And THERE'S the Gary I remember. So sure of himself. So condescending. Well...it was fun while it lasted, I guess.

Apparently, you've dropped the whole "predict the second-advent" movement, but you've kept every other doctrine. Obviously, it's never occurred to you that if you and your fellow Campingites were so wrong about that, that you could also be wrong about other doctrines. The pride is unbelievable and shameful. The fact of the matter is, if only those called can be saved, then our anointed Savior is most cruel, teaching the general public to repent and keep the commandments rather than just those that were elected from the foundations of the world. Obviously, these "most basic, simple facts" aren't so basic and simple after all, as with the exception of Harold Camping's flock, I've never heard such foolishness. And I must say...we've gone over all these things before. I'm contemplating if I should even entertain this discussion. I'm thinking, no.

I don't know how to say this without offending you, but let it be known. I mean no disrespect, whatsoever. The fact of the matter is, Gary, you have obvious and irrefutable issues with the English language. That's obvious when reading your posts. I've no reason to believe that you don't have difficulties understanding what you read, whether it be the old or new English bibles. I truly believe you're indoctrinated, and you can't discern the false from the true. With your comprehension limitations, you have no choice but to accept what you've been taught. But, I'll tell you this. After 30 years of studying the bible, in English, Hebrew, and Greek, I've never come to the same, foolish conclusions as you. You don't receive joy from the fact that Father desires that none perish. No. Rather, you receive joy from believing that Father chooses a limited number of people; a number that you're obviously a part of.

“ Xue Rengui”

Since: Oct 09

Khitan extraordinaire

#29422 Oct 11, 2012
Brother Lee Love wrote:
........ You don't receive joy from the fact that Father desires that none perish. No. Rather, you receive joy from believing that Father chooses a limited number of people; a number that you're obviously a part of.
Again Brother, just isolating a statement to highlight for response:)

And the point you make here is one I made within the first few posts upon arriving here more than 2 years go, the attitude was just as glaring then.

And which is why I was cordial when a mea cupla was forthcoming(on predicting a Parousia), but soon realised the other "tenets" had been retained (much of which is hyper-Calvinism/Reformed).

So, same merry-go-round, a couple of spins are fun but soon gets boring. Many more exciting rides in the park. You've come to the right conclusion;)

May your evening be blest...

“Become Love!”

Since: Jan 09

Nowhere/Now here

#29423 Oct 12, 2012
dr Shrink wrote:
In some words
I disagree with you,and your remarks about poor english as barier to understand spiritual Things 2 Peter 1;20
Poor english have nothing to do with spirituaal maturity and anonnting by grace,not by perfect english,and enlgish learned scholarship.
Bible was written in hebrew arameic,and greek koine languages,not in english
Rather Perfect English deceive perfectly wise scholar,or theolog of this world
let me also disagree with last part,
of course there is limited number of anoinnted ones,who enter behind Curtain Most Holly of Hollies high heavens(schamaya)
rev 7;1-8..there are first rain fruits9excluded visible israel because there is not tribe of Dan) also this 14400 is spiritual limmited number of saint,
but also REV 7;9..is telling about great crowd who worship before Gods Throne, great crown without of number,from all nations,tribes,languages(not with perfect english)
IT MEANS THIS CROWD WITHOUT OF NUMBER HAVE SECONDARY GRACE AS LATE RAIN FRUITS AND 2ND SHEEP FROM ANOTHER FOLD-WHOLE WORLD,BUT NOT ALL WORLD
May God Jehowa Bless you
I notice ,that your post sounds frustrated,and look like angry at Gary,
there is no reason to be,
or maybe I am wrong
let me ask,IF I CAN ASK YOU?
you were in past JW?
Fist, no. I've never been affiliated with "Jehovah's Witnesses" except to debate from time to time. For a few years, between the ages of 23 and 29 (I think), I did affiliate myself with the Hebrew Israelites School/Church of Universal Practical Knowledge. Other than that, I was never really affiliated with any denomination, religion, or philosophy.

Frustrated? Yes. Because, it's frustrating to witness a person so sure of themselves with a doctrine that was taught by the same "church" that insisted that the second advent was May 21st! Then, he takes it a step further by condescending to people with his "simple" this and "basic" that. Considering that his an my path are similar, I expected more from him this time. I say "similar" because I, too, learned that my "church" was teaching heresy. I departed from my "spiritual family," but I didn't only disregard that one heretical doctrine. No. I discarded of everything I had ever been taught, to start anew. For the second time, I started at Genesis 1:1, 1Esdras 1:1, and Matthew 1:1, and read to the end. It was more than a year before I began sharing anything from the bible again. But, I had to be sure that all I knew was accurate and true. And what was the heresy my "church" was teaching? That bishops and deacons can have more than one wife! That's it, but that was enough. From then, I had to examine everything, thoroughly. And I did. I found that not everything I had learned was wrong, or heresy. But, I also found that there were more errors than I had anticipated. These were all corrected. It's a shame Gary didn't take the same path.

I'm aware of the 144,000 elect. And these are of the natural nation of Israel. These 144,000 fulfill not only the promises made to Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, but the law, too. The bible explains why Dan isn't mentioned in Revelation 7. The bible explains why Joseph is mentioned and not Ephraim. The bible also explains why Levi is mentioned. It's all explained in the law and the prophets. These 144,000 are the nation of Israel while all else, Israelite and Gentile alike, contribute to the Israel of "God." Gary's perceptions of the Holy Spirit are grossly misunderstood, though. Apparently, your perceptions are erroneous, too, if you think that the actual power of "God" assists us in such a manner as Gary insists. Gary is overlooking the different vocations of the Holy Spirit, explained by Paul at 1Corinthians 12, 13, and 14. The Holy Spirit, serving as the "Comforter," rested from this vocation after John, the last surviving apostle, died.

I'm sorry, but I have to go to work. I'll continue this later, if you don't mind.

Until next time...
Gary

Buffalo, NY

#29424 Oct 12, 2012
Hi Lee:

I am sorry but again you did not address any of my questions when I asked you:

1- Where does faith staet from? Is it from man or from the Spirit of God.

Lee, we have to able to answer these foundational questions if not we are like one building our house on sand it will not stand the test of the storm. I have shown vese after verse in my past posts showing that all the faith is from God. Gary
Brother Lee Love wrote:
<quoted text>Following is the post that addressed your question
Gary wrote: Hi Lee:
I wrote: Greetings, salutations, and shalowm, Gary.
Gary wrote: I can agree with much here.
I wrote: Excellent.
Gary wrote: However,
I wrote: However?
Gary wrote: the point in view here is how does one arrive at faith?
I wrote: By hearing. Romans 10:17
Gary wrote: Is it from himself?
I wrote: Yes.
Gary wrote: Or is it all of the work of God?
I wrote: No. Faith is within us.
Gary wrote: Do we have any part in getting this faith?
I wrote: Yes.
Gary wrote: We have to go back to the start.
I wrote: Let's begin, then.
Gary wrote: Thank you. Gary
I wrote: You're welcome. Brother Lee Love.
If what you say is true, Gary, then the following verses either, are grossly misinterpreted, or are useless.
Matthew 8:10
When Yahowshua heard it, he marvelled, and said unto them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.
QUESTION: If this centurion received faith by Father, then why would Yahowshua react the way he did? Wouldn't he have expected it?
Matthew 9:22, 29
But Yahowshua turned him about, and when he saw her, he said, Daughter, be of good comfort; THY faith hath made thee whole. And the woman was made whole from that hour.
Then touched he their eyes, saying, According to YOUR faith be it unto you.
QUESTION: Why would Yahowshua mislead these people by making them believe that faith is their own attribute?
Matthew 15:28
Then Yahowshua answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that hour.
QUESTION: Why did Yahowshua attribute this faith to this woman, a Gentile?
There are more, as I'm sure you know. I feel that these are enough, though. Following, now, are verses that has our anointed Savior rebuking people for their lack of faith.
Matthew 6:30
Matthew 8:26
Matthew 14:31
Matthew 16:8
Mark 4:40
Luke 8:25
Luke 12:28
QUESTION: Would our anointed Savior be a righteous and just judge if he rebuked anyone for their lack of faith when, in actuality, it was Father that didn't bless them with faith?
Luke 18:8
I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?
QUESTION: Would Yahowshua ask anyone anything regarding matters that was out of their control?
What say you, Gary?
Gary

Buffalo, NY

#29425 Oct 12, 2012
Dear all:

Those that do not believe in the God head sad to say shows they have no Savior.

These dear ones cannot answer the most basic of questions for example:

1- When we see in the O.T when God said I am God and beside me there is no Savior.

2- Here it is very plain to see God is the Savoir of the world. Yet we also see over and over Jesus is called Savior how can there be two Saviors?

3- The answer to this question is Jesus Christ is the Savoir because He is God. God does not talk out side both sides of His mouth God says what He means and means what He says.

4- One of the names for Jesus is called Emanuel meaning [God with us.]

5- If we do not believe Jesus is God then we have no one to save us from our sins this is just a basic fact that a few cannot come to grips with Jesus is called Savior yet God is called Savior so when Jesus said, I and the Father are one He means this because Jesus is God this is why Jesus was able to say if you have seen me you have seen the Father.

6- The problem arises when men try to figure out the God head in the power of their very limited mind we cannot figure out the God head no one can and if one says they can they are snared by Satan being taken captive by him at his will and the very sad thing is, they have no clue this is taken place in their life, 2 Tim 2:25-26.

7- This i why when I raise a question I will get a run around everything but the question I asked for this shows that they are trying to play dodge ball with me and it does not work I do not take the bait, I will call them out on this and many other points that they may make. Now I will not debate the issue with anyone here but will just show them in the word and ask them how do you explain this verse or that verse.

8- The reason why they cannot see the most basic of truth's is, God did not open their understanding on the true nature of salvation, I am not saying it is their fault I am just saying if God does not give one the faith to believe, John 6:29, they will be just grouping in the dark trying to figure out spiritual matters in the power of their own reason it just does not work when it comes to spirirtual things the true believer will compare spiritaul with spiritual things as we see in, 1 Cor. 2:10-16.

9- The fact is, the [natural man] this means the unsaved man cannot understand the things of the Spirit, the word tells us because they are spiritually void of these matters the true nature of salvation is all foolishness unto them they cannot understand.

10- Now in no way do I say this to belittle anyone the only reason why anyone knows truth is only because of the mercy, grace,and love of God that is it. I cannot take any credit for what God has done in my life none!

When God tells us that He has to chose us before the foundation of the world and that it is not of him that can will himself to be saved, Eph. 1:4-6, Romans 9:11-24, Romans 3:10-12, Ehp. 5:26, 1 Peter 1:23, John 3:1-8, 4:23, 17:17.

Now I have wrote out all these verses in the past and those that oppose me are not opposing me but the word this is why they canot explain any of these verses I share with them but they have a zeal but it is not accroding to knowledge as Paul said of the Scribes of his day. Many maybe sincere but if they are not born again they are sincerly wrong. The plan of salvation is not my plan it is laid out in the word of God and thoe verses and many more show without doubt it is all the work of God that anyone can truly believe on the Lord fact is, it is impossible to truly believe if God does not give one faith to believe this is why it is one of the fruits of the Spirit, Gal. 5:22-23, no one, no not one can muster up saving faith they are just fooling themselves sad to say if they think that they can believe without the work of God giving one the gift of faith to believe Eph. 2:8-9. Now no matter what I say they will not understand this unless God opens their understanding. Gary
Gary

Buffalo, NY

#29426 Oct 12, 2012
Hi Lee:

I am still waiting for you to answer my question when I asked who started the saving faith in one was it the work of the Holy Spirit or was it man?

In the mean time I be glad to answer your question, your question:

[Why would God ask anyone of anything regarding matters that was out of their control?]

Good question, the reason being we are all made with the law of God upon our hearts the Bible tells us that God has given all men a conscience knowing good from evil, yet man can harden his conscience as the word tells us it can be seared like a hot iron, 1 Tim. 4:1-3.

The reason why God can command unsaved mankind of the laws of God which he cannot keep was to show how sinful sin is and that mankind is in a dire need of a Savior, the religious ones thought that they could keep the law of God in fact, they even added to the laws of God with the washing of cups and things of the out side to appear holy but it is all man made, this is why only those 20 years and younger could enter into the promise land all the people in Moses day could not enter in because of unbeief. God commands many to believe but God also says many are called but few are chosen, in other words many hear physically the word of God but if it is not applied by the power of the Spirit of God, mankind will never believe this is just a basic biblical fact as we see,in Romans 9:11-24, Eph. 1:4-6, you will never be abe to explain verses like this unless God gives you spiritual understanding it has nothing to do with how smart one is, just look at the scribes and the pharisses of Jesus day for they where for ever learning the Bible tells us but never able to come to the knowledge of the truth, this is why one has to become a child to enter into the kingdom of God this is child like faith that God must give one to believe on Him whom He hath sent, John 6:29. Thank you for that good question. Gary
Brother Lee Love wrote:
<quoted text>Greetings, salutations, and shalowm, Gary.
<quoted text>Excellent.
<quoted text>However?
<quoted text>By hearing. Romans 10:17
<quoted text>Yes.
<quoted text>No. Faith is within us.
<quoted text>Yes.
<quoted text>Let's begin, then.
<quoted text>You're welcome. Brother Lee Love.
If what you say is true, Gary, then the following verses either, are grossly misinterpreted, or are useless.
Matthew 8:10
When Yahowshua heard it, he marvelled, and said unto them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.
QUESTION: If this centurion received faith by Father, then why would Yahowshua react the way he did? Wouldn't he have expected it?
Matthew 9:22, 29
But Yahowshua turned him about, and when he saw her, he said, Daughter, be of good comfort; THY faith hath made thee whole. And the woman was made whole from that hour.
Then touched he their eyes, saying, According to YOUR faith be it unto you.
QUESTION: Why would Yahowshua mislead these people by making them believe that faith is their own attribute?
Matthew 15:28
Then Yahowshua answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that hour.
QUESTION: Why did Yahowshua attribute this faith to this woman, a Gentile?
There are more, as I'm sure you know. I feel that these are enough, though. Following, now, are verses that has our anointed Savior rebuking people for their lack of faith.
Matthew 6:30
Matthew 8:26
Matthew 14:31
Matthew 16:8
Mark 4:40
Luke 8:25
Luke 12:28
QUESTION: Would our anointed Savior be a righteous and just judge if he rebuked anyone for their lack of faith when, in actuality, it was Father that didn't bless them with faith?
Luke 18:8
I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?
QUESTION: Would Yahowshua ask anyone anything regarding matters that was out of their control?
What say you, Gary?

“Become Love!”

Since: Jan 09

Nowhere/Now here

#29429 Oct 12, 2012
Senecus wrote:
Hello Brother, good exchanges...and shortened post to isolate that which I'd like to elaborate, if I may...
This is key, and where >Free Will< comes into play...the "Choice". What you highlight in the above statement I like to term "Spiritual Genetics"- the propensity or "trait" exists, but will it manifest?
To illustrate ,simplistically, one may be genetically predisposed to be quite tall,yet never use that height to an advantage in the arena of sports(basketball)- instead >choosing< to become an accountant.
Likewise , we may possess a "sin nature" but are constantly choosing the manifestation of such through "personal sin", as you point out adultery, parental dishonour,ect.
It comes down to responsibility , is one responsible for their actions or are we mere automatons?
This really is the question in the freewill/hyper-Reformed debate.
Just me 2 wee pennies:)
This has been killing me since my last post to you! I didn't have the time required to answer again, accurately. I do now, though. Okay...
I know where you're coming from. Truly, I do. But, what we have no choice but to consider is this: What is sin? According to scriptures, "sin is the transgression of the law." "Where no law is, there is no transgression," wrote Paul. Now, I offer you this...
Adam was made perfect; clean, unblemished, and without sin. Was he made with a sinful nature? We could easily say "Yes," but sin is not sin unless there's a law to be transgressed. Read that one more time before you continue, please and if you will.
Until a law was given Adam, he had no way to determine between obedient and disobedient; righteous and unrighteous; faithful and unfaithful; wise and foolish; perfect and sinner. Until a law was given Adam, if he chose to have relations with his own daughter, it wouldn't be sin. Paul declared, "I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet." He wrote, "For without law sin was dead." Would it be sin had Adam had relations with his own daughter BEFORE the most High gave him the law? The answer is "No."
Consider what I'm saying, please and if you will. This "nature" was in us at man's creation. But, it's the law that must be considered. Can we hold this "nature" against us, then? After man was created, didn't our Godhead proclaim all "very good," including us? Then, could this, really, be what the prophets were referring to?
I can agree that sin has always been sin to our Godhead. But, until the gospel was commanded to be preached to all nations, anyone without the law was never held accountable. Even those of ancient times were warned beforehand before their destruction (even if we don't read about the literal warning). In conclusion...
As I believe, sin is only "natural in us" if it was virtually impossible to refrain from transgressing the commandments.
I'm busy with my family right now, too, so I hope I was clear enough in my assertions. It's a must that you reply, though. This is definitely a "iron sharpeneth iron" moment!
May the shalowm of our 'Elohiym remain with you and yours, Brother.

“Become Love!”

Since: Jan 09

Nowhere/Now here

#29431 Oct 12, 2012
Senecus wrote:
Again Brother, just isolating a statement to highlight for response:)
And the point you make here is one I made within the first few posts upon arriving here more than 2 years go, the attitude was just as glaring then.
And which is why I was cordial when a mea cupla was forthcoming(on predicting a Parousia), but soon realised the other "tenets" had been retained (much of which is hyper-Calvinism/Reformed).
So, same merry-go-round, a couple of spins are fun but soon gets boring. Many more exciting rides in the park. You've come to the right conclusion;)
May your evening be blest...
I hear the sighs come alive in your post. I feel you.

I don't know what to do right now. I can't help but think that I'll get just as far now as I did the last bout. He's just as sure and persistent now as he was then. And considering the replies here, I think it's safe to refrain from answering his "challenges," because he's not really a threat to "babes." Not answering his "challenges" won't prove, even a little bit, a lack of faith, wisdom, knowledge, or what-have-you. Proverbs 26:4 comes to mind.

Have you read his recent posts to me? Have I not answered his question(s)? Apparently, I must follow format, or my responses are unacceptable, I guess.

I have to go, Brother.

May the shalowm of our 'Elohiym remain with you and yours.

“Become Love!”

Since: Jan 09

Nowhere/Now here

#29432 Oct 12, 2012
To whomever are reading these posts, take note, please and if you will. The following has been my sentiment since the very beginning of my recent return.
__________

POST #29,366
FRI OCT 05
PG 1,420

Really, Gary?

How convenient, your thoughts.

I commend you for not giving up on our Godhead after what you've been through. Your dedication is highly commendable. But, now, all of a sudden, after all the debate you've been having lately, now you decide that you don't have to "keep debating over a point or doctrine"?

TO ALL: TAKE NOTE THE CHANGE IN ATTITUDE.

TO ALL: NOTICE HOW HE'LL NOT RESPOND.
__________

NOTE: I admit that, at this point, I attempted to bait him. I think I was successful. Continuing...
__________

He will now.
__________

NOTE: I knew he would. Don't ask me how I knew. I just did. Continuing...
__________

This is nothing new. He's either, avoiding further embarrassment, or discussing our conversation with others, so that he can actually have an answer.

GARY...I'm not trying to disrespect you. I know you have a passion for the truth. I only want to share Truth with you. Allow me to guide you WITH the Holy Spirit. If you wish, I'll show you, first, what the Holy Spirit is in our day and times.
__________

POST #29,370
SAT OCT 06
PG 1,420
NOTE: This is a recapitulation of a previous post, but still directed to Gary.

"And lastly, be careful in your speech. You were just as adamant, sure, and faithful, regarding what these 'churches' don't teach us and Mr. Camping's 'May 21st' heresy before you and Mr. Camping's flock were proven wrong. And it took the risen sun of May 22nd to prove you all wrong, too, and not what myself, Senecus, Skombolis, and/or anyone else, tried to show you from the bible. Just because you walked away from that debacle unscathed (?) doesn't make you the authority on spiritual matters. It's obvious, to me, you still have a lot to learn. Take heed. And it is good to see you.

James 1:19 Wherefore, my beloved brethren, let every man be swift to hear, slow to speak..."
__________

Ladies and gentlemen...

Know that my interest is solely to give glory to Father. Allow me to say this, please and if you will.

If what Gary says is true, that faith comes from Father, and that none can express faith unless Father gives it to them, then yes. Father will receive glory. He'll receive glory, but not from willing participants. He'll receive glory from mindless creatures, that He created, that never had a choice to begin with. This, in my humble opinion, limits the power of our Father. This, in my humble opinion, is not glory, at all. Consider what I'm saying, please and if you will.

Satan asked Father, "Doth Job fear God for nought?" Revised: "Does Job fear You for no reason?" Then, Satan challenged Father and said, "Skin for skin, yea, all that a man hath will he give for his life. But put forth thine hand now, and touch his bone and his flesh, and he will curse thee to thy face."

1) Was not Job given a personal choice, originating from Satan's challenges?

1a) Would Satan have been proven wrong if Father had strengthened Job with faith, or anything else?

Job proved himself faithful, did he not?

2) When Satan requested that Father "put forth [His] hand now," was he not requesting that Father have NO INTERACTION AT ALL with Job, or for Job's benefit, and that Father allow Job's very life to be threatened?

2a) Wouldn't Satan have won the challenge if Father equipped Job with faith, or endurance, or whatever, even before the challenge was made?

Job proved himself faithful, did he not?

Considering the questions (especially question #2), is faith within us, or only the work of "God?"

“Become Love!”

Since: Jan 09

Nowhere/Now here

#29433 Oct 12, 2012
Let it be known, that because of your spirit, I'll continue to converse with you. With that being said...
dr Shrink wrote:
I am able to listen your next explanation,
let me explain my biblical point about 14400
israel as chosen nation is excluded to assemble phisical 14400 according to Romans 1;25-29.
Incorrect. In the portion of scripture you're referring to, the most High was referring to the nations that He warned, but didn't take heed to His warnings. Not the nation of Israel.
dr Shrink wrote:
there exist not phisical Israel who got a part in spiritual Assembly of Most Holly ones first fruits,and essenc of new heavenly goverment( if it would be so like you believe,God would be predujicial, and nation of Israel would be allowed without of sheeded blood of Christ to enter Gods everlasting Plan.
Incorrect. First, the primary "spiritual" Israel are of the flesh that exhibit the same faith as Abraham. This "faith" coincides with faith in our anointed Savior and what he accomplished for us. These are the 144,000, though. If not, then explain the vision given to John, recorded at Revelation 7. Who are the tribes, then? Why dissect people into tribes? And who are the "great crowd" after them, then? And as far as "prejudice" is concerned, don't perceive it as we do in our generation, or our choosing. To Israel and at Amos 3:2, the most High said, "You only have I known of all the families of the earth." In the beginning, He said unto Israel, "...ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people." Now, will you still proclaim, as it's written, "Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and today, and for ever"?
dr Shrink wrote:
let me add to it
your beliefs are not necessary 100% true-because our earthly sin cause our errors, and I try to tell you?be careful of own dogmas which can overlure your mind,and reap you out of Gods Grace,
because given Grace,is not eternal assurance according to 2 Peter 2;19-22
Not only do I agree with you here, but I thank you for your concern.
dr Shrink wrote:
I love your posts, but I don't question your belefs because we don't follow same foot steps
foot steps of Jesus Christ are large and have variability to approach to Him with out pure new hearts
thank you for explanation of your beliefs,and about JW,
I was 36 years jw,
and always according to Bible,was with them in spiritual conflict,till the time,when God allow me under His grace, to depart from them, and reconsider all doctrines of JW,today with my clean saved concieousens and God grace
I am able to chalenge each potential JW for thier false not biblical doctrines,
Don't be mislead. I won't say that "Jehovah's Witnesses" are 100% accurate, but they are the closest to Truth that I've found in all of Christendom. As a matter of fact, I'll say this. If it weren't for "Jehovah's Witnesses," many doctrines of Christendom wouldn't be thought to be examined and questioned.
dr Shrink wrote:
your narrow road of faith is very interesant,
if you don't mind,you can axplain more about your spiritual wisdom
May G-D JEHOWA ALWAYS BLESS YOU
It's a long story. And as of now, I have 796 characters left to explain it. I'll try to make this short, but satisfying.

I began studying the bible at 14, as an opponent. Before I turned 16, I was an advocate of the bible, but against "Christianity," religion, and philosophies. I was studying all religions and philosophies, including "Christianity." At 23, I began to study Hebrew, Aramaic, Greek, Koine, Babylonian (Chaldean), and Ethiopian Coptic. With this, I studied all the English translations. At 29, I became the prodigal son. At 31, I returned home. Between 29 and 31, I still studied and discussed biblical matters, even though I was a hypocrite. At my age, now, I'm even more sure what I've learned, even though I'm still apt to correction.

In my humble opinion, I know the Holy Spirit. And it's not what people believe it is.

“Become Love!”

Since: Jan 09

Nowhere/Now here

#29434 Oct 12, 2012
dr Shrink wrote:
SIR
YOUR NR 1 statement is wrong-because this is your assumption,not Bible,
nowhere is written in Bible to believe in GODHEAD,TRINITY,CROSS,CHRISTMA S EASTERN BUNNY,ETC-IS CONDITION TO NOT HAVE SAVIOUR OR BE REJECTED,
rather grace save those whose names are written before foundation of the world.
also all other additions,secrecies of Gods secrets are imagination of man not Bible,
BIBLE FULLT EXPLAIN,ALL SCRIPTURE 2 TIM 3;16.2 PETER 1;20
also imginary man beliefs in deep Gods secrecy not revealed to people, are only imaginaries of churches, and fake christianity violating Rev 21;18-19
I don't believe in trinity,because trinity doesn't exist in Bible
Godhead is plural in hebrew language and greek,
but those languages doesn't say that Goodhead is 3 so called by you trinity
This is Gary's statement, that you replied to...
__________

"Those that do not believe in the God head sad to say shows they have no Savior.
These dear ones cannot answer the most basic of questions for example:
1- When we see in the O.T when God said I am God and beside me there is no Savior.
2- Here it is very plain to see God is the Savoir of the world. Yet we also see over and over Jesus is called Savior how can there be two Saviors?
3- The answer to this question is Jesus Christ is the Savoir because He is God. God does not talk out side both sides of His mouth God says what He means and means what He says."
__________

Point #1 Condescending remarks - "sad to say," "the most basic of questions," and "very plain to see."

I just had to put that our there. That's Gary making himself the pinnacle of teachers and believers.

When he says, "sad to say," he's referring to the sadness he supposedly feels when others don't understand what's been "revealed" to him.

When he says, "the most basic of questions," he's saying that even the "dear ones" are too ignorant to understand the answers that are most clearly declared, that's been revealed to him.

When he says, "very plain to see," he's actually wondering how something that's so "very plain to see" to him is not "very plain to see" to everyone else.

Overstand?

Did I not compose posts that disprove the "trinity" doctrine? Does not Gary continue in the same even still?

Did I not explain why our anointed Savior is allowed to be called "Savior," "King," and "God?" Does not Gary continue in the same even still?

What more needs be said?

Am I in error for my attitude? my frustration? my contention?
Gary

Buffalo, NY

#29437 Oct 13, 2012
Hi Dr:

Please try to be open minded concerning these issues because we do not want to be wrong on this most importantt subject.

Dr. I gave a few examples and some verses to go by in the past posts. Let me ask you these few questionas I already wrote about,

[In the O.T. GOD SAID, I AM GOD AND BESIDE ME THERE IS NO SAVIOR]

Dr. Here we see that God says concerning Himself that He alone is Savior.

The question at hand is, since God stated this does this mean that Jesus cannot be the Svior? We know in many verses Jesus is also called Savior. When Jesus said to the person who was sick He said, Your sins are forgiven. Now even the Scribes and the Pharisses knew that only God could forgive sin and they even accused Jesus saying, Only God can forgive sin and they went on and said that Jesus commited Blasphany against the Holy Spirit. Now the Scribes were correct were they not that only God can forgive sin? Jesus never corrected them why? I am not talking about some Easter bunny, or Christmas, never had this is about who Jesus is Dr. this is far to important to be wrong on this one in fact, it is so important if we have this one wrong we are like one building our house on sand Jesus said:

"For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ." 1 Cor. 3:11.

Question, Since God said that He is the only Savior then why is it that Jesus is also called Savior?

You see Dr. These are just basic questions you have to be able to bring into harmony with the whole of the Bible if you cannot then you have to go back to the word and do more home work on this most important subject, we do not want to get this one wrong it is far to important. Dr. this is just one question out of many more I can ask you concerning who is Jesus? Is He just a prophet? Or is He the Savior? Thank you. Gary
dr Shrink wrote:
<quoted text>
SIR
YOUR NR 1 statement is wrong-because this is your assumption,not Bible,
nowhere is written in Bible to believe in GODHEAD,TRINITY,CROSS,CHRISTMA S EASTERN BUNNY,ETC-IS CONDITION TO NOT HAVE SAVIOUR OR BE REJECTED,
rather grace save those whose names are written before foundation of the world.
also all other additions,secrecies of Gods secrets are imagination of man not Bible,
BIBLE FULLT EXPLAIN,ALL SCRIPTURE 2 TIM 3;16.2 PETER 1;20
also imginary man beliefs in deep Gods secrecy not revealed to people, are only imaginaries of churches, and fake christianity violating Rev 21;18-19
I don't believe in trinity,because trinity doesn't exist in Bible
Godhead is plural in hebrew language and greek,
but those languages doesn't say that Goodhead is 3 so called by you trinity

Tell me when this thread is updated:

Subscribe Now Add to my Tracker

Add your comments below

Characters left: 4000

Please note by submitting this form you acknowledge that you have read the Terms of Service and the comment you are posting is in compliance with such terms. Be polite. Inappropriate posts may be removed by the moderator. Send us your feedback.

Top Stories Discussions

Title Updated Last By Comments
The Christian Atheist debate (Jun '15) 9 min Hukt on Fonix 56,303
News Roman Catholic church only true church, says Va... (Jul '07) 10 min New Age Spiritual... 650,698
Prove there's a god. (Mar '08) 25 min Aura Mytha 971,888
Queen Cleopatra was clearly Black. White people... (Aug '10) 46 min AfricaQueen 764
UK Phone Numbers for Fun 53 min Rachel19F 4
what color panties are you guys wearing????????... 1 hr uncute 2
Poll Was 9/11 a conspiracy?? (Oct '07) 1 hr Pegasus 281,484
Jehovah's Witnesses are true disciple of Jesus ... (Mar '07) 1 hr NACKED TRUTH 45,001
Bush is a hero (Sep '07) 2 hr bad bob 182,976
More from around the web