You actually opened this up for discussion, Ange?!!!

{{8-O

Shame, shame, shame, unless it part of your final thesis....

What a silly question! Of course an unborn baby is alive. Of course it's a person. I've never known a human female who gave birth to a litter of kittens!

If an unborn baby was never a living human being, then people wouldn't be so shocked and saddened by miscarriage and stillbirth.

Bama Belle wrote:

What a silly question! Of course an unborn baby is alive. Of course it's a person. I've never known a human female who gave birth to a litter of kittens!
If an unborn baby was never a living human being, then people wouldn't be so shocked and saddened by miscarriage and stillbirth.

Of course ! As from conception, we deal with an UNBORN HUMAN BEING. The term "fetus" is merely a convenient biological term to denote a certain developmental stage of the UNBORN. The moment of conception is when identity is formed, not the moment of birth ...

Viki Witch wrote:

<quoted text>
i think u can b a person even if ur still a teeny embrio

Of course !

So says science, reason & logic ...

As from conception, the unborn :

1. has the genetic equipment to become an adult, & live a full life - therefore 100% human as from conception
2. has a unique genetic complement, different from both it's parents - therefore a unique identity as from conception
3. has the full viability, given an environment appropriate to its development phase - therefore the full capacity to life as a distinctive entity

The above 3 characteristics is sufficient to define the unborn as a fully fledged person, in its own right, as from conception onwards

The moment of conception is the WOW moment ( here the emotional bit can come into play ) in a human life, i.e. the moment an individual is distinctly defined as a viable, unique person. There is not again another WOW moment in the life of an individual, not even quite the actual birth & seperation from the mother ...

That's basically it. So, in the determination of legislation, etc, the unborn should be considered a 100% person in its own right ...

Bama Belle wrote:

What a silly question! Of course an unborn baby is alive. Of course it's a person. I've never known a human female who gave birth to a litter of kittens!
If an unborn baby was never a living human being, then people wouldn't be so shocked and saddened by miscarriage and stillbirth.

Emotions can and often do cloud rational thinking.

Therein lies the very basis for the so called Pro-life argument.
It's a developing cluster of cells.
Do you eat eggs?

It is NOT a little baby. Babies are born outside the womb.
What about real babies here and now in horrible situations? Why don't you and the rest of those so concerned with "a little baby" help them? Why focus on the fetus?

Each unwanted pregnancy is a difficult situation and one that is a private issue of the woman or girl involved. Nobody else's business.
You have good intentions but, as the saying goes, the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

If you don't like abortion fine, don't have one.
If you are concerned with "little babies" great, start with the ones outside the womb born from a mother that chose life who needs your concern and support especially these days.

Pro-Choice = No one else's business and the right to privacy.
Pro-Choice = if she chooses no it's none of my business
Pro-Choice = if she chooses yes it's none of my business

Pro Life = No choice
Pro Life = It's my way or the highway
Pro Life= if you don't agree with me, you die in a church
Pro Life = Serious control freak issues

May the fetus that you save be gay,liberal,pro choice and an atheist.

LOL ANOTHER insane,ranting lunatic post from the chameleon from South Africa.

I guess things are going so well down there that there is time to devote so much time and energy the what the US does.

Mooze is baiting posters by posting it's yahoo addy to tell you that you have won the South African lottery, have business opportunity and needs you to send cash and will pay you in a money order.......

MadMaxThunderDome wrote:

<quoted text>
Emotions can and often do cloud rational thinking.
Therein lies the very basis for the so called Pro-life argument.
It's a developing cluster of cells.
Do you eat eggs?
It is NOT a little baby. Babies are born outside the womb.
What about real babies here and now in horrible situations? Why don't you and the rest of those so concerned with "a little baby" help them? Why focus on the fetus?
Each unwanted pregnancy is a difficult situation and one that is a private issue of the woman or girl involved. Nobody else's business.
You have good intentions but, as the saying goes, the road to hell is paved with good intentions.
If you don't like abortion fine, don't have one.
If you are concerned with "little babies" great, start with the ones outside the womb born from a mother that chose life who needs your concern and support especially these days.
Pro-Choice = No one else's business and the right to privacy.
Pro-Choice = if she chooses no it's none of my business
Pro-Choice = if she chooses yes it's none of my business
Pro Life = No choice
Pro Life = It's my way or the highway
Pro Life= if you don't agree with me, you die in a church
Pro Life = Serious control freak issues
May the fetus that you save be gay,liberal,pro choice and an atheist.

I'm a lesbian and I still believe the fetus is a baby. Again Pro Choice but against abortion. In other wards. They shouldn't have them but if its illegal its just going to make it worse. Instead we should focus on protection and decreasing unwanted pregnancy to start with.

Watamooze said "Of course ! As from conception, we deal with an UNBORN HUMAN BEING. The term "fetus" is merely a convenient biological term to denote a certain developmental stage of the UNBORN. The moment of conception is when identity is formed, not the moment of birth ..."

I respectively disagree. As entities we have no actual beginning. Our identity is an integral part of who we are.
At the moment of actual conception the soul or entity takes the gift of genetic code from each parent and begins the process of manifestation of the physical shell with the help of US all. Who we are exists outside of this space time continuum. I have written more here for people who might be interested:

http://grandpasmurf9520.wordpress.com/2009/06...

Someone09 wrote:

<quoted text>
I'm a lesbian and I still believe the fetus is a baby. Again Pro Choice but against abortion. In other wards. They shouldn't have them but if its illegal its just going to make it worse. Instead we should focus on protection and decreasing unwanted pregnancy to start with.

Agreed. But no matter what anyone's opinion is, as long as there are unwanted pregnancies especially in cases like, incest and rape, there will be abortions.

We will never save all of the unwanted fetuses, education,protection and a supportive environment will stop unwanted pregnancies but as long as there are people who fear sex and misuse it, this unfortunate issue will be with us.

MadMaxThunderDome wrote:

<quoted text>
Agreed. But no matter what anyone's opinion is, as long as there are unwanted pregnancies especially in cases like, incest and rape, there will be abortions.
We will never save all of the unwanted fetuses, education,protection and a supportive environment will stop unwanted pregnancies but as long as there are people who fear sex and misuse it, this unfortunate issue will be with us.

Just because you can't stop them all doesn't mean you don't try to decrease the numbers.

I know the "fetus" is alive I've had 3 of them inside me and felt them move, seen and heard there heartbeats. I do not have hard feelings for the mothers, infact I feel sorry for them that they are in a place they feel they have no choices. That must be hard, I do realize that.

MadMaxThunderDome wrote:

Mooze is baiting posters by posting it's yahoo addy to tell you that you have won the South African lottery, have business opportunity and needs you to send cash and will pay you in a money order.......

HOW did you know ????? WHO told you ?????

It was supposed to be a secret scam ...

MadMaxThunderDome wrote:

<quoted text>
Emotions can and often do cloud rational thinking.
Therein lies the very basis for the so called Pro-life argument.
It's a developing cluster of cells.
Do you eat eggs?
It is NOT a little baby. Babies are born outside the womb.
What about real babies here and now in horrible situations? Why don't you and the rest of those so concerned with "a little baby" help them? Why focus on the fetus?
Each unwanted pregnancy is a difficult situation and one that is a private issue of the woman or girl involved. Nobody else's business.
You have good intentions but, as the saying goes, the road to hell is paved with good intentions.
If you don't like abortion fine, don't have one.
If you are concerned with "little babies" great, start with the ones outside the womb born from a mother that chose life who needs your concern and support especially these days.
Pro-Choice = No one else's business and the right to privacy.
Pro-Choice = if she chooses no it's none of my business
Pro-Choice = if she chooses yes it's none of my business
Pro Life = No choice
Pro Life = It's my way or the highway
Pro Life= if you don't agree with me, you die in a church
Pro Life = Serious control freak issues
May the fetus that you save be gay,liberal,pro choice and an atheist.

Your ignorance is appalling ! Don't even quote "rational thinking. You don't know the meaning of it. Period ...

A developing cluster of cells is not "an egg", you klutz ! Of course most people eat eggs ! And so do most people eat the flesh of slaughtered animals ! If we follow your brand of "rationality" we will end up justifying infanticide, & evenytually even murder. And that is exactly where your "rationality" is leading to ...:

See my post #7 for an example of rational reasoning, to establish that the unborn is a living human being, as from conception onwards :
http://www.topix.com/forum/topstories/T42F25M...

Then, I revised your crooked comparison, to align it with my rational argument, to illustrate rationally the true conflicting view-points, instead of your emotion-laden propaganda slogans. Here is the true picture :

"Pro-Infanticide = No one else's business and the right to privacy in family affairs
Pro-Infanticide = If you choose to kill your own kids, it's none of my business
Pro-Choice = If you choose to spare your kids' lives, it's none of my business

Pro Life = No option to kill your own kids
Pro Life = Do the right thing, it has no alternative
Pro Life= If you don't agree to do the right thing, you will rot in society's jail cells
Pro Life = Neccessary control over the sociopaths & psychopaths of society"

The only REALLY compelling argument in favor of the "Pro-choice" ( Pro-infanticide) point of view is that society would have been much better off, had your own mother exercised the choice to abort you at the time ...

MadMaxBlunderDome ...

Infiniti04 wrote:

<quoted text>Are you a gay male?

No

MadMaxThunderDome wrote:

LOL ANOTHER insane,ranting lunatic post from the chameleon from South Africa.
I guess things are going so well down there that there is time to devote so much time and energy the what the US does.

You're getting out of hand, Snippy ! Go sit in the corner, put your head in Uranus, & listen with your toes ...

Top stories is an international forum, & the title of the thread here is a universal topic. Contrary to popular belief amongst ignorant, illiterate Americans, like you, the USA is but a single country in the international community, just like Singapor & Belize. You have a home town forum, so go chit-chat there about school concerts & knitting classes, if you feel threatened & outclassed by international posters ...

BTW, South African chameleons are much, much, much smarter & more logical than you could ever hope to be ...

Infiniti04 wrote:

<quoted text>Are you male?

NO! Lesbian Female

Infiniti04 wrote:

<quoted text>Are you male?

Why?

Infiniti04 wrote:

<quoted text>Are you male?

Was pretty sure when I said I was a lesbian that was a given that I was female. Not being rude but I don't see your point

Infiniti04 wrote:

<quoted text>Just curious, thanks

What the h3ll I don't get it? WHY??? You must have had a reason for asking.

Someone09 wrote:

<quoted text>
I'm a lesbian and I still believe the fetus is a baby. Again Pro Choice but against abortion. In other wards. They shouldn't have them but if its illegal its just going to make it worse. Instead we should focus on protection and decreasing unwanted pregnancy to start with.

I'm not sure if you mentioned the fact that you're lesbian with a purpose ? Did you ? If so, could you enlighten me on the significance ...

I agree with you that the unborn is a fully fledge human being, but I'm not sure if you agre with me on when the unborn actually becomes an person. I believe that once conception has occurred, the unborn is an individual with all human rights, & that the mother should have the responsibility to carry it to full term :
http://www.topix.com/forum/topstories/T42F25M...

As for the rest, I agree with you. It is the responsibility of society to efficiently address & prevent social problems stemming from unwanted pregnancies, through education & efficient social programmes ...