Is the Drug War winnable? Let's discu...

Is the Drug War winnable? Let's discuss America's Drug War, I'm curious!

Created by philosothink on Feb 1, 2011

102 votes

Click on an option to vote

It's winnable, and we're making a difference.

It's not winnable, but we need it to protect ppl.

It's not winnable, prohibition never works.

It's not winnable, soft drugs should be taxed.

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“just a regular guy”

Since: Jan 11

Collinwood, TN

#1 Feb 1, 2011
I'm doing some research on the Drug War. I'd love to get some of your thoughts on the matter. Intelligent discussion please, refrain from flaming one another if you're mentally mature enough.... :)

“just a regular guy”

Since: Jan 11

Collinwood, TN

#2 Feb 2, 2011
two votes against... anyone willing to give us a convincing argument about how this war can be won?

“just a regular guy”

Since: Jan 11

Collinwood, TN

#3 Feb 2, 2011
I posted this poll on my local board and it's at a 60-40 split at the moment but I'm rural south. The 60-40 split is not too out of line with the national polls. So far we're at 100% against the drug war on this one..
uIdiotRacesMakeW orldPeace

Santa Clara, CA

#4 Feb 2, 2011
Hey Philosothink,

I see you in action, if you like mature intellectual stimulating debates from finance, politics ... check this thread out.

Ron PAul on verge of going third Party

http://www.topix.com/forum/us-house/ron-paul/...

Hope see you there!
uIdiotRacesMakeW orldPeace

Santa Clara, CA

#5 Feb 2, 2011
Here something for all think about. Take an Example
What fueling the drug war along US/Mexico Border .
1) American dependency on illegal Drugs fueling the war
2) Hillary before she were head of State admits that the small US arms manufacture/sellers (Registered US cos.,) of guns/small weapons to Mexican drug Cartels fuel war
3) The corrupted US agents/radicals in US govt is in drug trade.

Your solution?

“just a regular guy”

Since: Jan 11

Collinwood, TN

#6 Feb 2, 2011
Only solution I see it to take away their product lines... legalize. There is no way to shut it down short of a total police state where everything large enough to grow pot in, or smuggle it in, is checked every time it moves.

Trafficking of stuff that can be moved in body orifices is impossible to prohibit, just like prohibiting prostitution. It's never worked, anywhere, ever.

“just a regular guy”

Since: Jan 11

Collinwood, TN

#7 Feb 2, 2011
84% for ending the drug war, and 16% that think it's not winnable, but it's a needed protection.
LIH

Fairmont, NC

#8 Feb 2, 2011
Law Enforcement Against Prohibition

http://www.leap.cc/cms/index.php

“just a regular guy”

Since: Jan 11

Collinwood, TN

#9 Feb 2, 2011
LIH wrote:
Law Enforcement Against Prohibition
http://www.leap.cc/cms/index.php
LEAP is a great organization. They're making a big difference, however, their "own people" won't listen to them. I suspect many of the officers out there realize their job depends on the Drug War for funding.

“Question everything”

Since: Apr 10

Assume nothing

#10 Feb 2, 2011
Ignorance is the only thing we need protection from. Irrational fear is the enemy. All drugs should be legal.

“just a regular guy”

Since: Jan 11

Collinwood, TN

#11 Feb 2, 2011
r0n d0n wrote:
Ignorance is the only thing we need protection from. Irrational fear is the enemy. All drugs should be legal.
I agree. I've been looking into this even more now that I've quit smoking weed. I think Portugal and the Netherlands when compared to the USA and Mexico pretty much seal the whole deal.

They've already had 120 deaths in Mexico this year.

“I'm out hunting”

Since: Jan 10

For your mind and soul

#12 Feb 2, 2011
Certain Drugs like ecstasy need to be banned but soft one like wedd should not.

“Life may be sweeter for this”

Since: Nov 08

Fennario

#13 Feb 3, 2011
Reposted from http://www.topix.com/forum/religion/atheism/T... :

The War on Drugs is unforgivable. A government that would wage war on its citizens should be dismantled if possible. The benefit is next to zero - you can still get any drug any time if you're into it and connected.

Yet the damage done to families and individuals far outweighs any small benefit that can be demonstrated. And the cost is enormous.

These are some of the industries that benefit from the War and that spend money to keep drugs illegal and to keep many citizens suffering and in fear :

pharmaceuticals
beer and liquor
cotton, wool, textiles
lumber
organized crime
police
attorneys
prisons
probations
rehab units
drug test manufacturers

Note that in many areas, the police keep whatever money they confiscate, and confiscate property as well :
http://books.google.com.mx/books...

This gives them an incentive to plant drugs, make arrests and seize homes, vehicles and bank accounts - but only if you think that there are any dishonest cops or police forces that want more money.

And keep in mind that something like "prisons" is bigger than just the wardens and screws. My brother in law is an engineer who helps design prisons. Business is good. I think everybody already know that that America leads the free world in the percentage of its citizens that are prisoners.

Don't ever let the police catch you with cash. You may never see it again, especially if it's got cocaine residue on it, which most bills in circulation have just from being in billfolds with bills used to snort coke:
http://www.churchoftrueisrael.com/nsforum/ns2...

This is straying from the War on Drugs a bit, but just to see some of the fruits of privately owned prisons, please also note that now that prisons are becoming privatized and profitable, it's necessary to fill them as fast as possible :
http://boingboing.net/2009/02/02/judges-jaile...

If you smoke pot in America, you know this sickening feeling : You're forever living in fear of being caught. Many people would consider you anti-social and a criminal. I used to have to go 45 minutes out of town to buy papers lest I be recognized. I was an otherwise law abiding citizen who was a productive member of my community. Nevertheless, I had a secret life that could have shamed me, cost me my license, untold numbers of dollars, and possibly my freedom.

Here in Mexico, pot has been decriminalized. It's like a huge weight lifted off of my shoulders. We smoke openly. Last Monday night I shared a joint in a restaurant in the back with the owner's permission. Nobody gave a crap. And just yesterday, I bought five packs of Zig-Zags and dropped four of them in plain view of a half dozen people in a plaza.

It had just noted how nice it was to buy them without being judged or feeling like I was, and then how nice it was for this to be nothing at all. That's freedom from fear, peace of mind, and it's not for American pot smokers, although I understand that they have decriminalized it in California because of the huge public expense in waging the war. Too many people see you as a cash cow, and the government supports that vision.

“Life may be sweeter for this”

Since: Nov 08

Fennario

#14 Feb 3, 2011
philosothink wrote:
I'm doing some research on the Drug War. I'd love to get some of your thoughts on the matter. Intelligent discussion please, refrain from flaming one another if you're mentally mature enough....:)
I didn't vote because I didn't like the choices :

* It's winnable, and we're making a difference.
* It's not winnable, but we need it to protect ppl.
* It's not winnable, prohibition never works.
* It's not winnable, soft drugs should be taxed.

I disagree with the first two outright.

The third isn't correct. We should continue to prohibit some things, like murder and incest (with "working" meaning minimizing their occurrence, even if they can't be eliminated). Prohibition of vice is different.

And I don't care about taxing drugs. It's certainly not the reason to legalize them. Freedom is. The injustice of the War on Drugs is. And if money is a factor, the wastage waging the War far outweighs any lost tax revenues.

How about this?:

* It's not winnable, it's unjust, and it's counterproductive.

“just a regular guy”

Since: Jan 11

Collinwood, TN

#15 Feb 3, 2011
It aint necessarily so wrote:
<quoted text>
I didn't vote because I didn't like the choices :

And I don't care about taxing drugs. It's certainly not the reason to legalize them. Freedom is. The injustice of the War on Drugs is. And if money is a factor, the wastage waging the War far outweighs any lost tax revenues.
How about this?:

* It's not winnable, it's unjust, and it's counterproductive.
Ah, well I'm not a "fantasy-ist" though. If it's sold in stores, it WILL be taxed by sales tax at the very least, and I can assure you it'll have an Alcohol-Styled tax on it per pack.

And whether or not you agree or disagree, prohibition never works. Incest, murder, rape will occur whether or not they are prohibited. Making something illegal is one thing, having a culture wide ideal of Prohibition with entire task forces and governmental agencies is another. We don't have a Department of Incest Prevention, for example.

While I can appreciate your points, I'd have to start the whole affair over again to accommodate your needs :) should I find myself running this again, I will amend question 3 to "Prohibition of VICE never works."

“Life may be sweeter for this”

Since: Nov 08

Fennario

#16 Feb 3, 2011
Let me begin by saying that I was put off by your reply. I gave you a lot of material there. Your comments seemed to be limited to defending yourself when you weren't being challenged. Let's look at them, then
philosothink wrote:
Ah, well I'm not a "fantasy-ist" though.


Great. What's that, a fantasy-ist? And how does that relate to my post? Did I say something that made you think that I associated you with fantasy or fantasy-ism?
philosothink wrote:
If it's sold in stores, it WILL be taxed by sales tax at the very least, and I can assure you it'll have an Alcohol-Styled tax on it per pack.
Obviously. So what? You offered "soft drugs should be taxed" as a choice attached the the War on Drugs being unwinnable. I also told you I didn't care about that. Tax revenue is great. But it's not a motivating factor for me in my desire to end the War on Drugs, just an extra bonus.

So, why are you telling me the obvious, and worded as if it is contradicting me. It isn't. Your comment, once again, seems to be unnecessarily contrarian.
philosothink wrote:
And whether or not you agree or disagree, prohibition never works. Incest, murder, rape will occur whether or not they are prohibited. Making something illegal is one thing, having a culture wide ideal of Prohibition with entire task forces and governmental agencies is another. We don't have a Department of Incest Prevention, for example.
Now you appear to be correcting me, but actually haven't contradicted me. Here's what I said:

"We should continue to prohibit some things, like murder and incest (with "working" meaning minimizing their occurrence, even if they can't be eliminated). Prohibition of vice is different."

Do I have to explain what prohibition means? Murder is prohibited, and it does work in the way that I said it work: reduces the number of murders.

You seem to like to quibble for no reason. Or maybe what were intended as constructive criticisms miffed you. Whatever. I am not enjoying having to struggle with you over minutia while you ignore the main issues. Remember this: "Let's discuss America's Drug War, I'm curious!"
philosothink wrote:
While I can appreciate your points, I'd have to start the whole affair over again to accommodate your needs :) should I find myself running this again, I will amend question 3 to "Prohibition of VICE never works."
Accomodate me? I don't want you to do anything. I just explained why I couldn't vote. You'd have to start the whole thing over? It's all about you, isn't it?

You appreciate my points? Which points? I made quite a few. The only ones you addressed were those you disagreed with.

Never mind. I really don't care to go much more down this path with you. What's in it for your responders? I don't even know if you're for the War on Drugs or opposed to it.

Oh, and you're welcome.

“Life may be sweeter for this”

Since: Nov 08

Fennario

#17 Feb 3, 2011
philosothink wrote:
I posted this poll on my local board and it's at a 60-40 split at the moment but I'm rural south. The 60-40 split is not too out of line with the national polls. So far we're at 100% against the drug war on this one..
What is the topic? You ask if the Drug War is winnable, and offered these options:

* It's winnable, and we're making a difference.
* It's not winnable, but we need it to protect ppl.
* It's not winnable, prohibition never works.
* It's not winnable, soft drugs should be taxed.

Shouldn't you be reporting how many think it's winnable (choice 1), not how many are for it (choices 1 and 2} or against it. Either way, you have to combine categories. So why these questions instead of

* It's winnable
^ It's not winnable

or

* I'm for it
* I'm against it
philosothink wrote:
I'm doing some research on the Drug War. I'd love to get some of your thoughts on the matter. Intelligent discussion please, refrain from flaming one another if you're mentally mature enough....:)
Obviously you're not doing research in any formal sense, any more than Googling something is doing research. You're playing around. This poll will tell you nothing.

Have fun.

“just a regular guy”

Since: Jan 11

Collinwood, TN

#18 Feb 3, 2011
It aint necessarily so wrote:
<quoted text>
What is the topic? You ask if the Drug War is winnable, and offered these options:
* It's winnable, and we're making a difference.
* It's not winnable, but we need it to protect ppl.
* It's not winnable, prohibition never works.
* It's not winnable, soft drugs should be taxed.
S
Obviously you're not doing research in any formal sense, any more than Googling something is doing research. You're playing around. This poll will tell you nothing.
Have fun.
you are rather easy to offend. And I think if you'll take the time to look at your post, you're doing a lot of quibbling too.

I'm asking my 4 questions the way I am for a reason. There are two types of people in favor of Prohibition. People who think it can be won and people who think it's a necessary evil, there are two main types of people who think the war isn't winnable... I'm collecting two types of data at once.

You have become so used to antagonistic discussion here you assume every exchange is an attack.

I'll not quibble with you though... njoy

“just a regular guy”

Since: Jan 11

Collinwood, TN

#19 Feb 3, 2011
It aint necessarily so wrote:
Let me begin by saying that I was put off by your reply. I gave you a lot of material there. Your comments seemed to be limited to defending yourself when you weren't being challenged.(bunch of stuff omitted for space) The only ones you addressed were those you disagreed with.
Never mind. I really don't care to go much more down this path with you. What's in it for your responders? I don't even know if you're for the War on Drugs or opposed to it.
Oh, and you're welcome.
I did not reply to the post where you gave me information. I did however judge it "Interesting" "Agree" and "Helpful". Most of it I have seen before, and thought of before myself. The insight you provide from Mexico, and it's decriminalization of small amounts is MOST helpful and VERY appreciated.

I do not agree with you about my polling method except for the addition of the word "vice". That too is a brilliant and important single word change I failed to think of.

You seem to have an amazing intellect, but you should attempt to not be so easily diverted into controversy. It will elevate your cortisol levels and adversely affect your buzz :)
Patton

United States

#20 Feb 3, 2011
The drug war will only be winnable when we begin treating it as an actual war. All dopers should be shot on sight, dealers should be water-boarded for 'supply' information then thrown off of the Good-Year blimp. In flight, of course.

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