Bush is a hero
Clearwater

United States

#181597 Aug 27, 2014
HipGnosis wrote:
<quoted text>This hi-lites one thing I don't understand. What is the difference between Carson's experience, and Obama's? I understand folks not liking a person's politics, but on the personal level, it seems that, on the surface at least, Obama's experience is everything conservatives supposedly commend. Very often we've seen people degrade Obama's experience by shouting "Release the transcripts! What's he hiding?" I wonder if the same cynicism applies to Carson?
In a word, yes.
Clearwater

United States

#181598 Aug 27, 2014
lisw wrote:
<quoted text>
don't be foolish. I don't know a soul who thinks Jim Crow laws or slavery were good things. And I certainly don't think prejudice in this day and age is called for at all. But as a clinician I also don't think that having bad things happen in your life (or your parents' lives" gives you carte blanche to behave badly. Many don't, I have known people who experienced awful abuse who went on to be the best of parents and be very successful. We need to make sure everyone has a shot at that, but that's all.
You want black people to be victims? Well some of them will be , but some refuse to be.
Also well said. Of course some will claim and even Shapton said this of late that if you're black and do well others will claim you're not being black enough.
Clearwater

United States

#181599 Aug 27, 2014
Looks like the dear leader is making good on not waiting on Congress. Man that darn climate change or whatever the hacks call it today will be the death of us all. Thank God Obama is willing to act as he knows best.

Since: Sep 10

San Francisco, CA

#181600 Aug 27, 2014
Roberta G wrote:
<quoted text>
First, let me say I suspect that I walked into a carefully baited trap. But I did so with my eyes open, because I always did run in where angels feared to tread, and because no good can come from ignoring the elephant in the room. You do that, all you get is...uh...more things to remove from the room, than just the elephant.(My, my, what a lot of metaphors in such a small space!)
More to the point--Catcher, this really IS the "elephant in the room," isn't it? Black people HAVE contributed to their own problems AND that racial divide you mentioned. Why deny that?
As someone else said, Larry I think, I can certainly understand that experience can be hard to recover from, but even the most recent experience on your list was DECADES ago. None of them account for the breakdown of the black family, widespread criminal activity and drug use, overwhelming school dropout and out-of-wedlock birth rates. None of them account for racebaiters like Jackson and Sharpton, and their unholy alliance with political liberals, especially far-left liberals.
Have you ever noticed, Catcher, that cold air blowing into a closed atmosphere can be uncomfortable, even downright painful? Catcher, I am absolutely, 100% convinced, that the vast majority of whites in this country sincerely want that racial divide closed and healed.** I ** certainly do, with all my heart I do--and one of the reasons I opened this can of worms is to do a bit to bring these unspoken issues into the open. But that divide cannot and will not close, Catcher, unless and until blacks are prepared to meet whites in the middle of it.(Still the metaphors? Hmm...)
Your comment about blacks making reparations to whites was just plain silly, Catcher. Blacks owe us white people nothing. Nothing, that is, except HONESTY. And 149 years since slavery ended in America, honesty is all we white people owe blacks too.
No trap at all.

And I don't disagree with the facts you cite: the breakdown of the black family, widespread criminal activity, out-of-wedlock births, school dropout rate and so on.

Where we disagree is that I see these social conditions as consequences, vestiges if you will, of almost two centuries of discrimination. Of course there can be Dr. Carsons and Obamas and Oprahs and Sidney Poitiers, who are able to overcome obstacles and succeed. Nonetheless, in my view the long-term mistreatment of an entire race and denial of basic human rights has left us with an undeniable toll.

With that, I'll leave the subject.
Roberta G

United States

#181601 Aug 27, 2014
bad bob wrote:
Edit:
Should have led off with the fact that I do NOT presume to speak FOR Roberta G. Only reason I resplied at all is because the response from chaser was r-i-d-i-c-u-l-o-u-s (IMO).
You clearly got the point of my post, though :) Terrific reply too, my fuzzy wuzzy teddy bear ;)

Since: Dec 07

Location hidden

#181602 Aug 27, 2014
Catcher1 wrote:
<quoted text>
The concept does not lend itself to a pithy definition.
If you are truly interested, I suggest you read John Locke's Second Treatise of Government, and/or some Rousseau. Our founding fathers generally adopted Locke's ideas.
I'm familiar with the concept and the general definition is easy enough to find despite in spite of its vagueness and disagreement.

I bring it up because it seemed as if you were implying that "these poor unfortunate people" i.e.... African-Americans, were being unfairly and unlawfully treated as regards the whole Ferguson incident.

That their history and mistreatment had, in some way, entitled them a leg up on the Law which is what the whole theory of "Social Contract" ultimately hangs ...yes?

Doesn't seem like an equitable contract to me.
Does it to you counselor?

(Not rhetorical)
Roberta G

United States

#181603 Aug 27, 2014
Catcher1 wrote:
<quoted text>
No trap at all.
And I don't disagree with the facts you cite: the breakdown of the black family, widespread criminal activity, out-of-wedlock births, school dropout rate and so on.
Where we disagree is that I see these social conditions as consequences, vestiges if you will, of almost two centuries of discrimination. Of course there can be Dr. Carsons and Obamas and Oprahs and Sidney Poitiers, who are able to overcome obstacles and succeed. Nonetheless, in my view the long-term mistreatment of an entire race and denial of basic human rights has left us with an undeniable toll.
With that, I'll leave the subject.
Leave the subject if you like, Catcher. But I suggest you do your part, in the OFFline world, by calling out such irresponsible reasoning. Today's conditions are IN PART the result of long years of discrimination, yes, but that does not excuse blacks today of the failure to make use of their opportunities now. You can't change the mistreatment of the past, but you CAN change the future, and no one can do that FOR you. The people you mentioned have all built successful careers, but who put the most effort into building those careers? They THEMSELVES did, of course. They went to school. They avoided drugs. They didn't sleep around and have kids they couldn't afford, financially or emotionally.

For heaven's sake, Catcher, do you think American blacks, or blacks anywhere, are the only group ever to suffer outrageous mistreatment? I've got a newsflash for you, Catcher: Blacks AREN'T the only group. Over the course of history, there have been very few groups which have never suffered through terrible periods of systemic mistreatment--and that includes Europeans, Catcher. Ever read any of the history of the peasants of Germany, or the serfs of England, or the Dutch while under Spanish rule, or the slaves of the Roman Empire and elsewhere? Do you know any of the history of the Aborigines of Australia? Do you know any of the history of the Jews of the world?

That does NOT excuse the mistreatment of any of the groups inflicting the mistreatment. But somehow the mistreated peoples still managed to make the most of the opportunities which DID come their way, and even managed to thrive to the point which they could help end the systemic mistreatment still being endured by others. As far as I know, making excuses and...uh...whining...was not accepted, let alone encouraged. If those other mistreated peoples could succeed, then there's only one reason why blacks can't succeed here: it's convenient not to.
Roberta G

United States

#181604 Aug 27, 2014
HipGnosis wrote:
<quoted text>This hi-lites one thing I don't understand. What is the difference between Carson's experience, and Obama's? I understand folks not liking a person's politics, but on the personal level, it seems that, on the surface at least, Obama's experience is everything conservatives supposedly commend. Very often we've seen people degrade Obama's experience by shouting "Release the transcripts! What's he hiding?" I wonder if the same cynicism applies to Carson?
I'm not sure I understand your point, Hip. I referenced Dr. Carson because he was the person Catcher (or was it Larry?) did in his post. I wasn't thinking about Obama at all.

Good to see you too, old friend :)

Since: Dec 07

Location hidden

#181605 Aug 27, 2014
lisw wrote:
I don't know a soul who thinks Jim Crow laws or slavery were good things.
Don't get out much eh?

Just saying ...

“Custer @ LBH - Ooops”

Since: Nov 07

Bakersfield, CA

#181606 Aug 27, 2014
Catcher1 wrote:
<quoted text>
No trap at all.
And I don't disagree with the facts you cite: the breakdown of the black family, widespread criminal activity, out-of-wedlock births, school dropout rate and so on.
Where we disagree is that I see these social conditions as consequences, vestiges if you will, of almost two centuries of discrimination. Of course there can be Dr. Carsons and Obamas and Oprahs and Sidney Poitiers, who are able to overcome obstacles and succeed. Nonetheless, in my view the long-term mistreatment of an entire race and denial of basic human rights has left us with an undeniable toll.
With that, I'll leave the subject.
You can run but ya can't hide.

Asian-Americans have not only been discriminated against as long or longer than blacks, but they have a language barrier to overcome as well. But because education, retention of the family unit, and long standing cultural traditions, etc., are a PRIORITY for Asians, they have exceeded by a few percentage points, the American experience over white America.

Real Black leaders such as Dr Carson, not the phony race-mongers like Sharpton & Jackson, MUST encourage the nation's black population to turn themselves around, get on their own 2 feet, take responsibilty for their actions, and strive to succeed. There's no better place for them to do that than right here in the US.

Otherwise, it'll be the same status quo until SOMEONE in the black community decides enough is enough.

Since: Dec 07

Location hidden

#181607 Aug 27, 2014
HipGnozizzz wrote:
<quoted text>In the context in which I used it, it is merely a convenient phrase to describe any society which a semi-contiguous people develop between themselves in common. It can and does mean different things in different times, locations, and between different peoples.
--
On a side-note - there's a hardly a phrase or term available that people don't try to attach unintended connotations and insidious implications to, is there? It's like, we're not just talking a different language, we are determined to do so, for each our own purposes. That would be one way that a developed but complacent society begins to tear the thing down......
What I get out of this is that the term is well intention but illusory,

Serves only those with power and authority and as you said ..is fluid.

Helluva way to govern, helluva way to keep peace.

Wish people would stop using it.

Since: Dec 07

Location hidden

#181608 Aug 27, 2014
bad bob wrote:
Real Black leaders such as Dr Carson, not the phony race-mongers like Sharpton & Jackson, MUST encourage the nation's black population to turn themselves around, get on their own 2 feet, take responsibility for their actions, and strive to succeed. There's no better place for them to do that than right here in the US.

Otherwise, it'll be the same status quo until SOMEONE in the black community decides enough is enough.
Ya know...I kinda like Carson.

He ...
Seems to speak intelligently.
Seems to speak objectively.

But ...
Looks sleepy, as if he's going to nod off during the interview at any given moment.

Somebody needs to slip him a Red Bull or something!

“Custer @ LBH - Ooops”

Since: Nov 07

Bakersfield, CA

#181609 Aug 27, 2014
HipGnosis wrote:
<quoted text>This hi-lites one thing I don't understand. What is the difference between Carson's experience, and Obama's? I understand folks not liking a person's politics, but on the personal level, it seems that, on the surface at least, Obama's experience is everything conservatives supposedly commend. Very often we've seen people degrade Obama's experience by shouting "Release the transcripts! What's he hiding?" I wonder if the same cynicism applies to Carson?
For you to say ya don't understand this is, well....I believe.... less than honest.

Obviously there can be no higher "rags to riches" experience than coming from black (or in Obama's case, half black), to POTUS.

And I reckon IF Dr Carson is ever sworn in as a US President, you'll likely see plenty of detractors.
Perhaps not of education transcripts, but I'm pretty sure, they'll find something with which to squeeze him.

“Custer @ LBH - Ooops”

Since: Nov 07

Bakersfield, CA

#181610 Aug 27, 2014
another edit:
s/h/r coming from black (or in Obama's.....) HERITAGE

Since: Sep 10

San Francisco, CA

#181611 Aug 27, 2014
NEWS-FLASH wrote:
<quoted text>I'm familiar with the concept and the general definition is easy enough to find despite in spite of its vagueness and disagreement.
I bring it up because it seemed as if you were implying that "these poor unfortunate people" i.e.... African-Americans, were being unfairly and unlawfully treated as regards the whole Ferguson incident.
That their history and mistreatment had, in some way, entitled them a leg up on the Law which is what the whole theory of "Social Contract" ultimately hangs ...yes?
Doesn't seem like an equitable contract to me.
Does it to you counselor?
(Not rhetorical)
I have made no comment about the Ferguson incident.

“Custer @ LBH - Ooops”

Since: Nov 07

Bakersfield, CA

#181612 Aug 27, 2014
NEWS-FLASH wrote:
<quoted text>Ya know...I kinda like Carson.
He ...
Seems to speak intelligently.
Seems to speak objectively.
But ...
Looks sleepy, as if he's going to nod off during the interview at any given moment.
Somebody needs to slip him a Red Bull or something!
I know what you mean NF.

I see it slightly different though. He's obviously well-spoken, etc., but being very LOW-KEY, he has the rare skill to wait patiently until the other person(s) is/are finished speaking, no matter if they are railing against what he has to say or not.

Noticed that last night with O'Reilly. With an Irish background, BillO gets a bit animated, AND
will also usually throw in some humor somewhere in the interview. If you noticed, you knew Dr Carson was paying strict attention, because he smiled slightly after each "pun", and answered ALL of the questions to the extreme best of his ability.

Not sure he has the demeanor it takes to be President of the US however.

Since: Dec 07

Location hidden

#181613 Aug 27, 2014
Catcher1 wrote:
<quoted text>
I have made no comment about the Ferguson incident.
It was implied.

Since: Sep 10

San Francisco, CA

#181614 Aug 27, 2014
bad bob wrote:
<quoted text>
I know what you mean NF.
I see it slightly different though. He's obviously well-spoken, etc., but being very LOW-KEY, he has the rare skill to wait patiently until the other person(s) is/are finished speaking, no matter if they are railing against what he has to say or not.
Noticed that last night with O'Reilly. With an Irish background, BillO gets a bit animated, AND
will also usually throw in some humor somewhere in the interview. If you noticed, you knew Dr Carson was paying strict attention, because he smiled slightly after each "pun", and answered ALL of the questions to the extreme best of his ability.
Not sure he has the demeanor it takes to be President of the US however.
Democrats would love to see Carson as the adversary.

Even more so than Rand Paul.

Since: Dec 07

Location hidden

#181615 Aug 27, 2014
Catcher1 wrote:
<quoted text>
I have made no comment about the Ferguson incident.
Correction - You didn't.

Your post just came at a time when a number of posts were discussing Ferguson.

Apologies

Since: Dec 07

Location hidden

#181616 Aug 27, 2014
bad bob wrote:
<quoted text>
I know what you mean NF.

I see it slightly different though. He's obviously well-spoken, etc., but being very LOW-KEY, he has the rare skill to wait patiently until the other person(s) is/are finished speaking, no matter if they are railing against what he has to say or not.

Noticed that last night with O'Reilly. With an Irish background, BillO gets a bit animated, AND
will also usually throw in some humor somewhere in the interview. If you noticed, you knew Dr Carson was paying strict attention, because he smiled slightly after each "pun", and answered ALL of the questions to the extreme best of his ability.

Not sure he has the demeanor it takes to be President of the US however.
He stays cool, I'll give him that.

Regarding the Presidency ... not a snowballs chance in hell!

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