“I'm here with bells on.”

Since: Jul 12

Location hidden

#175920 Mar 21, 2014
WildWeirdWillie wrote:
<quoted text>McCain's remarks were funny. Your Cindy Sheehan imitation (Bush is going to the ranch while Americans are dying) is not.
Predictable ... but not funny.
I will admit that Obama is in over his head on Ukraine/Crimea when you can tell me what options the United States has to prevent Russian expansionism in the former Soviet Republics that Obama is not taking.
See, U.S. foreign policy is something I'm very interested in. U.S. foreign policy as a campaign bumper sticker doesn't interest me at all.
It's my understanding that the People of the Crimea are, in the main, in FAVOR of being annexed.....Please correct me if I'm wrong....as I'm sure someone will try to do, regardless.
Lyndi

Sarasota, FL

#175921 Mar 21, 2014
WildWeirdWillie wrote:
<quoted text>Once again you have written a post that shows just how much in common you have with people who cry racism as a way to shut down discussion - and to make themselves a victim.
You (and Chris) have a troll. Anyone can see that. You bantered with him for quite some time, then got bored with it. You cried stalker, now you're crying foul because someone has the audacity to question that exaggeration.
That's EXACTLY what this is (at best). It's an exaggeration.
A word from me to Catcher about his trolling would have accomplished about as much as a word from you to USA_1 about his trolling me - which is to say, nothing. I think you know that. I think you also know that we said about the same amount to each others trolls.
If I thought for a second that Catcher was an actual stalker, Topix would have been notified before you were, and you would have been notified of my concern in a private message. The last thing I would have done is introduce it on the board as a part of the conversation. If you or anyone else has information that goes beyond the annoying troll posts on Topix, I'd suggest that you use the information PRIVATELY and take appropriate steps.
So the part about "you >not< putting MY level of discomfort up for public debate," isn't something you choose to respect unless or until you get in the last word......... is that about right?

Don't answer. Please. I've had about as much of your patronizing on this as I can stomach ........

“2016 No Clinton No Bush!”

Since: Dec 06

Lafayette IN

#175922 Mar 21, 2014
Lyndi wrote:
<quoted text>
So the part about "you >not< putting MY level of discomfort up for public debate," isn't something you choose to respect unless or until you get in the last word......... is that about right?
Don't answer. Please. I've had about as much of your patronizing on this as I can stomach ........
Going forward if you want me to drop a subject like this one, just make the request without burying it in the middle of a whole lot of utter rubbish about how I disagree with you because of liberalism and bias toward women or whatever.

“2016 No Clinton No Bush!”

Since: Dec 06

Lafayette IN

#175923 Mar 21, 2014
Sister Kathryn Lust wrote:
<quoted text>It's my understanding that the People of the Crimea are, in the main, in FAVOR of being annexed.....Please correct me if I'm wrong....as I'm sure someone will try to do, regardless.
I think you're probably right, but that doesn't mean I buy the 97% election results or think that the annexation was done in a legitimate manner.

Everything I've read suggests that the conditions in Crimea differ from other areas of Ukraine, even other Russian speaking areas.
Lyndi

Sarasota, FL

#175924 Mar 21, 2014
WildWeirdWillie wrote:
<quoted text>
I will admit that Obama is in over his head on Ukraine/Crimea when you can tell me what options the United States has to prevent Russian expansionism in the former Soviet Republics that Obama is not taking..
Um, it probably would have been helpful when Romney et al warned of this very thing, that Obama and the rest of you liberal "hug our enemies 'til they hug us back," didn't laugh your heads off.....{ Pssst. Even Palin predicted this waaaaaay back. 2008? 2009?

Over his head in Afghanistan, Iran, Libya, Iraq, Russia. He's over his head with Mexico, with Cuba, with Israel with Venezuela......Over his head when he thought al Qeada was on the run and decimated. Oops. Over his head when he drew lines in Syria and had no follow through. Oops. Over his head when Putin brokered the deal on chemical weapons in Syria. Oops. Over his head when Snowden took a duffle bag full of sensitive information and moved to Moscow....Oops. Over his head with Hillary Clinton and her stupid re-set button. Oops.
Are you KIDDING me? He's a foreign policy buffoon and Putin knows it. Everybody knows it.

Lemme tell you something. When Comrade former KGB Putin took a looksie at Obama's resume and saw Community organizer, Community agitator, junior senator, tree hugger extraordinaire and windmill and solar panel specialist salesman; then listened to his liberal utopian blah blah and reduction of military spending etc. I guarantee you he started licking his chops at how incredibly lucky he was at how incredibly stupid the US was.
Lyndi

Sarasota, FL

#175925 Mar 21, 2014
WildWeirdWillie wrote:
<quoted text>Going forward if you want me to drop a subject like this one, just make the request without burying it in the middle of a whole lot of utter rubbish about how I disagree with you because of liberalism and bias toward women or whatever.
Did my two words, "don't answer," not compute with you? Too many syllables? Did the urge to tell me how to compose my posts to better suit your preferences, simply trump my request?

Let's try it again.

Don't answer.

Ssssh,...I know you can do it.

“MEET ROSEMARY-She Seeks Home”

Since: Oct 10

With Established Harem

#175926 Mar 21, 2014
Sister Kathryn Lust wrote:
<quoted text>It's my understanding that the People of the Crimea are, in the main, in FAVOR of being annexed.....Please correct me if I'm wrong....as I'm sure someone will try to do, regardless.
.. historically, the Ukraine has always been tied to Russia and over 50% of the Crimean population is ethnic Russian ..

.. Baltic states like Lithuania are becoming extremely nervous because, like the Ukraine, they have a significant ethnic Russian population in certain areas ..

.. if the Ukraine becomes part of the Russian Federation, Belarus, already in concert with Russia, will follow ..

"NATO sees a wider regional strategy at play."

.. here's the map ..

http://www.dw.de/russias-periphery-whos-next/...

Since: Jun 08

Location hidden

#175927 Mar 21, 2014
WildWeirdWillie wrote:
<quoted text>McCain's remarks were funny. Your Cindy Sheehan imitation (Bush is going to the ranch while Americans are dying) is not.
Predictable ... but not funny.
I will admit that Obama is in over his head on Ukraine/Crimea when you can tell me what options the United States has to prevent Russian expansionism in the former Soviet Republics that Obama is not taking.
See, U.S. foreign policy is something I'm very interested in. U.S. foreign policy as a campaign bumper sticker doesn't interest me at all.
I believe that the problem is one of momentum. Once that car starts rolling down the hill there is no stopping it. I think it began during the presidential campaign of 2008. McCain said what he thought about the encroachment on Georgia. Obama shrugged his shoulders. As soon as he was elected Putin knew what he was dealing with and put his plan in place. He has three more years to do his thing, maybe more.

“2016 No Clinton No Bush!”

Since: Dec 06

Lafayette IN

#175928 Mar 21, 2014
Lyndi wrote:
<quoted text>
Um, it probably would have been helpful when Romney et al warned of this very thing, that Obama and the rest of you liberal "hug our enemies 'til they hug us back," didn't laugh your heads off.....{ Pssst. Even Palin predicted this waaaaaay back. 2008? 2009?
Over his head in Afghanistan, Iran, Libya, Iraq, Russia. He's over his head with Mexico, with Cuba, with Israel with Venezuela......Over his head when he thought al Qeada was on the run and decimated. Oops. Over his head when he drew lines in Syria and had no follow through. Oops. Over his head when Putin brokered the deal on chemical weapons in Syria. Oops. Over his head when Snowden took a duffle bag full of sensitive information and moved to Moscow....Oops. Over his head with Hillary Clinton and her stupid re-set button. Oops.
Are you KIDDING me? He's a foreign policy buffoon and Putin knows it. Everybody knows it.
Lemme tell you something. When Comrade former KGB Putin took a looksie at Obama's resume and saw Community organizer, Community agitator, junior senator, tree hugger extraordinaire and windmill and solar panel specialist salesman; then listened to his liberal utopian blah blah and reduction of military spending etc. I guarantee you he started licking his chops at how incredibly lucky he was at how incredibly stupid the US was.
I will admit that Obama is in over his head on Ukraine/Crimea when you can tell me what options the United States has to prevent Russian expansionism in the former Soviet Republics that Obama is not taking.

You haven't answered that question.

As far as the prophesy of Palin and Romney, when this first came up I dug back and reposted one of my own posts from the time of the Russian incursion into Georgia where I said that Russia would continue to behave badly in their former republics.

That means, of course, that the views you tried to assign me aren't mine. I don't own that. To borrow one of yours, you don't have my permission to assign me that.

You clearly want to present the Russian incursion into Ukraine something Obama is responsible for. Fine - show me what it is he could be doing that he's not. Show me the power available to the United States President that Obama's not using.

“2016 No Clinton No Bush!”

Since: Dec 06

Lafayette IN

#175929 Mar 21, 2014
Lyndi wrote:
<quoted text>
Lemme tell you something. When Comrade former KGB Putin took a looksie at Obama's resume and saw Community organizer, Community agitator, junior senator, tree hugger extraordinaire and windmill and solar panel specialist salesman; then listened to his liberal utopian blah blah and reduction of military spending etc. I guarantee you he started licking his chops at how incredibly lucky he was at how incredibly stupid the US was.
Well, that explains EVERYTHING.

No, really, It sheds light on a lot of Russian actions.

So ... what was it you think Khrushchev saw in Eisenhower that emboldened him to crush the Hungarian revolution in '56? What was it that Brezhnev saw in Johnson's resume to realize he could turn the clock back on the Prague spring? What was it that Putin saw in Bush's background that give him permission to go into Chechnya and Georgia?

Yeah, that's it. It explains EVERYTHING. Or nothing.

See that's not a laundry list of perceived Obama failures - that's a very real list of previous Russian actions of similar character with a similar American response. That response came about not because of the incompetence of whoever happened to be in the White House at the time - that response was due to our lack of options.

You want to make this about Obama, tell me what those options are.

“2016 No Clinton No Bush!”

Since: Dec 06

Lafayette IN

#175930 Mar 21, 2014
lisw wrote:
<quoted text>I believe that the problem is one of momentum. Once that car starts rolling down the hill there is no stopping it. I think it began during the presidential campaign of 2008. McCain said what he thought about the encroachment on Georgia. Obama shrugged his shoulders. As soon as he was elected Putin knew what he was dealing with and put his plan in place. He has three more years to do his thing, maybe more.
Let's say Palin is accurate when she says that she 'predicted' a Russian invasion of Ukraine if was elected.

I would have laughed at her at the time, because predicting Russian expansionism at the expense of Ukraine was a pretty good bet no matter WHO won the election of 2008. That's not based on momentum near as much as it is on geography and history.

What I'm still waiting to hear is what option the United States has in this situation that Obama's not using. Maybe we need to start talking about how much the United States and its allies are willing to risk in order to stop Putin.

“MEET ROSEMARY-She Seeks Home”

Since: Oct 10

With Established Harem

#175931 Mar 21, 2014
lisw wrote:
<quoted text>I believe that the problem is one of momentum. Once that car starts rolling down the hill there is no stopping it. I think it began during the presidential campaign of 2008. McCain said what he thought about the encroachment on Georgia. Obama shrugged his shoulders. As soon as he was elected Putin knew what he was dealing with and put his plan in place. He has three more years to do his thing, maybe more.
.. do you really think any U.S. President could stop a power hungry Putin without using military intervention ??..

.. and, what's the self-imposed paralysis of Europe's leaders all about? Perhaps they know more about the situation than the average American ??..

.. to understand what's going on in the Ukraine, you must know its history, its close ties to Russia. Next, ignore the politicians, it's all chatter. There are sociological and economical issues, an east -vs- west struggle, a cultural impasse which few Americans can fully comprehend ..

.. as a Ukrainian-American once told me, "I liked the Soviet Union. You could travel anywhere throughout the east without worrying about visas or health care. In many ways, it was an ideal society." ..

.. culture sweetheart, culture ..

Since: Jun 08

Location hidden

#175932 Mar 21, 2014
Happy Lesbo wrote:
<quoted text>
.. do you really think any U.S. President could stop a power hungry Putin without using military intervention ??..
.. and, what's the self-imposed paralysis of Europe's leaders all about? Perhaps they know more about the situation than the average American ??..
.. to understand what's going on in the Ukraine, you must know its history, its close ties to Russia. Next, ignore the politicians, it's all chatter. There are sociological and economical issues, an east -vs- west struggle, a cultural impasse which few Americans can fully comprehend ..
.. as a Ukrainian-American once told me, "I liked the Soviet Union. You could travel anywhere throughout the east without worrying about visas or health care. In many ways, it was an ideal society." ..
.. culture sweetheart, culture ..
You talk lots but don't demonstrate much understanding of culture. I know about as much about Russia as most educated americans and have some insight gained from in laws that came from that Eastern block, specifically Hungary and Slovakia. In those nations as well as the Ukraine, they identified much more with the west than the east. To put it bluntly they hated the Russians.
My point is that McCain could have been trusted from the get go to supply arms if requested and to impose sanctions immediately without wringing his hands. Obama has waited too long and has played right into the hands of Putin. Putin now has the piece of the Ukraine that provides some sort of hope for the Ukraine to prosper. I'm sure he offered a sweet deal to the crimeans.
Sanctions I would have hoped the Europeans would have imposed along with the US? Refusal to accept the ruble and refusal to buy natural gas from Russia. Ah, but people like their creature comforts.
It's not about culture sweetie, It's about money.

Since: Jun 08

Location hidden

#175933 Mar 21, 2014
And power. Same thing.

“2016 No Clinton No Bush!”

Since: Dec 06

Lafayette IN

#175934 Mar 21, 2014
Happy Lesbo wrote:
<quoted text>
.. do you really think any U.S. President could stop a power hungry Putin without using military intervention ??..
.. and, what's the self-imposed paralysis of Europe's leaders all about? Perhaps they know more about the situation than the average American ??..
.. to understand what's going on in the Ukraine, you must know its history, its close ties to Russia. Next, ignore the politicians, it's all chatter. There are sociological and economical issues, an east -vs- west struggle, a cultural impasse which few Americans can fully comprehend ..
.. as a Ukrainian-American once told me, "I liked the Soviet Union. You could travel anywhere throughout the east without worrying about visas or health care. In many ways, it was an ideal society." ..
.. culture sweetheart, culture ..
I don't know if the European leaders 'know more about the situation' than the average American, but they do have more at stake. It is, after all, their back yard, and any reprisals for western economic sanctions (for example) will fall more directly on their countries.

Besides ... getting the European leadership to do anything but talk about not doing something is a lot like herding cats.

I think you're right to say to understand what's going on you need to understand the region's history - but that's damned complicated. You have centuries of ties to Russia, but you also have centuries of attempts on the part of the Ukrainians to go their own way.

You can also overplay the east west struggle - to make this into poor misunderstood Russia being victimized by the west. Sell that one to the Poles. Or the Latvians. Or the Estonians. Or the Lithuanians. Or the Hungarians. Or the citizens of the former Czechoslovakia. Tell the Finns that the Russian incursion into Crimea was just them protecting the rights of Crimean citizens.

Hell ... tell Chechnya that the Russians have decided that if a region doesn't want to be a part of a country, they can just walk away. Chechnya could use a good laugh.

As far as your touching story of the Ukrainian American who thought the Soviet Union was an ideal society ... see, I too know a Ukrainian American who spoke of his travels east. His travels east weren't exactly voluntary, however, and he didn't wax nearly as nostalgic as your acquaintance did.

It's all chatter indeed...

“2016 No Clinton No Bush!”

Since: Dec 06

Lafayette IN

#175935 Mar 21, 2014
lisw wrote:
<quoted text>You talk lots but don't demonstrate much understanding of culture. I know about as much about Russia as most educated americans and have some insight gained from in laws that came from that Eastern block, specifically Hungary and Slovakia. In those nations as well as the Ukraine, they identified much more with the west than the east. To put it bluntly they hated the Russians.
My point is that McCain could have been trusted from the get go to supply arms if requested and to impose sanctions immediately without wringing his hands. Obama has waited too long and has played right into the hands of Putin. Putin now has the piece of the Ukraine that provides some sort of hope for the Ukraine to prosper. I'm sure he offered a sweet deal to the crimeans.
Sanctions I would have hoped the Europeans would have imposed along with the US? Refusal to accept the ruble and refusal to buy natural gas from Russia. Ah, but people like their creature comforts.
It's not about culture sweetie, It's about money.
It is all about power and money, but when a source supplies more than 30% of the energy required to run a modern industrial state, there's more at play than 'creature comforts'. I have to wonder if a President McCain or Romney, encumbered with the responsibilities of being the President of the United States and arguably leader of the free world, would charge off too far ahead of the European leaders on sanctions with that in mind, since any backlash would fall more directly on their people.

In order to provide Ukraine with a military option against Russia, a US president would have to provide arms. Some of those arms would have to stuff like guns and tanks and planes and bombs that make it easy to make other people dead. The rest of those arms would have to be the other kind - the ones with legs and heads attached, all trained in using the stuff that make it easy to make other people dead. I mean, Russia's three times bigger than Ukraine, with active duty military forces about 7 times the size of that of Ukraine.

You ready to get into that?

Since: Jun 08

Location hidden

#175936 Mar 21, 2014
WildWeirdWillie wrote:
<quoted text>It is all about power and money, but when a source supplies more than 30% of the energy required to run a modern industrial state, there's more at play than 'creature comforts'. I have to wonder if a President McCain or Romney, encumbered with the responsibilities of being the President of the United States and arguably leader of the free world, would charge off too far ahead of the European leaders on sanctions with that in mind, since any backlash would fall more directly on their people.
In order to provide Ukraine with a military option against Russia, a US president would have to provide arms. Some of those arms would have to stuff like guns and tanks and planes and bombs that make it easy to make other people dead. The rest of those arms would have to be the other kind - the ones with legs and heads attached, all trained in using the stuff that make it easy to make other people dead. I mean, Russia's three times bigger than Ukraine, with active duty military forces about 7 times the size of that of Ukraine.
You ready to get into that?
That's like asking the chicken and the pig if they are ready to make breakfast. I'd be the chicken, with something to lose but not as much as others. But when do we draw a line. We waited and watched and yelled no war, while Hitler did what he did. I wonder if we are going to "get into that" anyway. Russia was at it's meekest when it was struggling to provide enough food for its people. Yes people get hurt but do we ust let him keep going?

“MEET ROSEMARY-She Seeks Home”

Since: Oct 10

With Established Harem

#175937 Mar 21, 2014
lisw wrote:
<quoted text>You talk lots but don't demonstrate much understanding of culture. I know about as much about Russia as most educated americans and have some insight gained from in laws that came from that Eastern block, specifically Hungary and Slovakia. In those nations as well as the Ukraine, they identified much more with the west than the east. To put it bluntly they hated the Russians.
My point is that McCain could have been trusted from the get go to supply arms if requested and to impose sanctions immediately without wringing his hands. Obama has waited too long and has played right into the hands of Putin. Putin now has the piece of the Ukraine that provides some sort of hope for the Ukraine to prosper. I'm sure he offered a sweet deal to the crimeans.
Sanctions I would have hoped the Europeans would have imposed along with the US? Refusal to accept the ruble and refusal to buy natural gas from Russia. Ah, but people like their creature comforts.
It's not about culture sweetie, It's about money.
.. I understand the culture just fine since my mother was born in Lithuania and I have inhaled books on the history and culture of the area ..

.. along with Hungary and Slovakia, the Baltic states also detest Russia. However, Belarus and Ukraine are historical allies ..

.. it's always about power and money with culture hanging in the balance ..

.. so far, your 'side' only places blame on Obama. What would Bush, Jr. or McCain have done differently? What's your solution ??..

“MEET ROSEMARY-She Seeks Home”

Since: Oct 10

With Established Harem

#175938 Mar 21, 2014
WildWeirdWillie wrote:
<quoted text>I don't know if the European leaders 'know more about the situation' than the average American, but they do have more at stake. It is, after all, their back yard, and any reprisals for western economic sanctions (for example) will fall more directly on their countries.
Besides ... getting the European leadership to do anything but talk about not doing something is a lot like herding cats.
I think you're right to say to understand what's going on you need to understand the region's history - but that's damned complicated. You have centuries of ties to Russia, but you also have centuries of attempts on the part of the Ukrainians to go their own way.
You can also overplay the east west struggle - to make this into poor misunderstood Russia being victimized by the west. Sell that one to the Poles. Or the Latvians. Or the Estonians. Or the Lithuanians. Or the Hungarians. Or the citizens of the former Czechoslovakia. Tell the Finns that the Russian incursion into Crimea was just them protecting the rights of Crimean citizens.
Hell ... tell Chechnya that the Russians have decided that if a region doesn't want to be a part of a country, they can just walk away. Chechnya could use a good laugh.
As far as your touching story of the Ukrainian American who thought the Soviet Union was an ideal society ... see, I too know a Ukrainian American who spoke of his travels east. His travels east weren't exactly voluntary, however, and he didn't wax nearly as nostalgic as your acquaintance did.
It's all chatter indeed...
.. ultimately, only time will tell ..

.. personally, I don't think Putin will stop at the Crimea, he wants the Ukraine and Belarus. After that, who knows ??..

.. for all practical purposes, European leadership is looking the other way. Should a NATO Nation be invaded, what do you think will happen ??..

“2016 No Clinton No Bush!”

Since: Dec 06

Lafayette IN

#175939 Mar 21, 2014
Happy Lesbo wrote:
<quoted text>
.. ultimately, only time will tell ..
.. personally, I don't think Putin will stop at the Crimea, he wants the Ukraine and Belarus. After that, who knows ??..
.. for all practical purposes, European leadership is looking the other way. Should a NATO Nation be invaded, what do you think will happen ??..
I don't think it's a surprise that Putin wants to 'put the band back together': reacquire or at least dominate much of what had been part of the Soviet Union.

To what length he'll go to do it, only time will tell. I do think it's premature to start speculating about a what-if invasion of a NATO country, however.

I don't think it's fair to say that the European leadership is 'looking the other way.' I think they have arguably more limitations on their actions than the U.S. does, since the fallout from a Russian response will fall directly on them. They also have the disadvantage of trying to coordinate the efforts of 25+ nations.

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