“I'm here with bells on.”

Since: Jul 12

Location hidden

#175719 Mar 11, 2014
WildWeirdWillie wrote:
<quoted text>No, in 1942 we weren't staring down the engines of any-sob-with-a-commercial-jetl iner-and-a-grudge.
In 1942 we were staring down full blown first rate military powers across both oceans with army and air forces roughly the equivalent of Portugal, a small and mostly outdated Navy only marginally better. By the time the war finally came home to us there was an established pattern of aiding the aggressor by ethnic minorities in occupied countries (Poland, Czechoslovakia, Norway, France, Holland, China and others
Combine that with the racism with which Asians were viewed, and you ended up with the interment camps. We used a wholesale approach to the Japanese simply because they weren't white.
This ain't 1942. Yes, there's still plenty of racism out there, but it's not as ingrained as it was. One of the things that argue against it happening here again is the fact that it happened then - that there would be sufficient voices raised up against such an idea to prevent it in part because of the knowledge of how wrong that was.
I say again - nothing I say should be used to justify or validate the camps.. It was wrong in every way. At the same time, I agree with Catcher that one should not minimize the suffering. That is what demolishes the 'a camp is a camp' idea.
I know full well that the Japanese suffered, but to compare the interment of Japanese Americans with the Soviet Gulag and its "iron curtain" subsidiaries, with the German concentration camp system even excluding the extermination camp, with the interment of American and Dutch and UK civilians by the Japanese, IS to minimize their suffering.
There's little doubt that the US would like to believe its interred were 'better treated', than those interred overseas. Asserting that 'a camp is a camp' does little to assuage the average American conscience....I can see it has only done more to unsettle yours.

Minimize their suffering? Really? You're going to sit there and opine that my aversion to ANY 'rounding up' of citizens, for whatever reason, is uncalled-for, because our camps were 'less horrible' than 'their camps'?

Please....
Lyndi

Sarasota, FL

#175720 Mar 11, 2014
Sister Kathryn Lust wrote:
<quoted text>.....or he could have been trying to explain to himself why centuries of use of the tool of racism, has been so damnably successful against his race. Perhaps he was asking the wrong questions.
"We're born that way," is a sorry excuse for maintaining one's racial tendencies. The words 'mystery' and 'riddle' are red herrings for the knowledge that racism is a choice....not a conundrum.
(JMO)
:)
As learned as I'm sure you are on anti-Semitism and racism ( being a white chick from Oklahoma who hasn't studied it); as well as having the uncanny ability to quickly discern what is and what is not a red herring when discussing social evolution, you'll have to excuse me but I think I'll take his class this semester and maybe take yours next semester.
Lyndi

Sarasota, FL

#175721 Mar 11, 2014
WildWeirdWillie wrote:
<quoted text>If a prominent member of Party X actually said that, then some people from Party Y would react in a fairly predictable way.
That's true no matter which way you plug the parties into the variables.
Now, I know I'm supposed to deny what you say. My expected line is to say "Noooooooooooooo, your the worserest ones."
So in other words you know liberals don't play fair and you're good with that and would rather not discuss it. Just suffice it to say both parties do it. I suppose you think there's an equal playing field in the media too.

I'd ask you why if liberalism is so damn good why the need to play dirty at all but I think my chances of getting a straight answer from you are kind of small.

“2016 No Clinton No Bush!”

Since: Dec 06

Lafayette IN

#175722 Mar 11, 2014
Sister Kathryn Lust wrote:
<quoted text>There's little doubt that the US would like to believe its interred were 'better treated', than those interred overseas. Asserting that 'a camp is a camp' does little to assuage the average American conscience....I can see it has only done more to unsettle yours.
Minimize their suffering? Really? You're going to sit there and opine that my aversion to ANY 'rounding up' of citizens, for whatever reason, is uncalled-for, because our camps were 'less horrible' than 'their camps'?
Please....
Yes, I do think you minimize the suffering of those interred by the Japanese, Germans, Soviets, and many others when you compare it to the suffering of Japanese Americans interred during WWII. That's based on the record, not trying to make me feel good about what my country did.

What I'm trying to do here, without speculating on your motives, is tell you I don't agree with you.

I don't think the record supports, in more than a superficial way, that a camp is a camp is a camp. Now, if you want to make the argument that we treated our internees the way the Japanese, Germans, and Russians treated theirs - be my guest.

So ... to prove your point ... please provide me an approximate number of Japanese interned in American camps of any kind who died within six months of release due to malnutrition or physical brutality suffered during their period of internment, or who suffered a lifetime of physical aftereffects from their interment.

Please provide me the number of Japanese interned in American camps who found that they were the only surviving members of their families upon release.

If you're going to include the Gulag, please provide me the names and locations of camps still in operation by early 1946.

Contrary to your accusation, I can't feel good about what my country did. Knowing that we weren't as bad as the worst of the worst doesn't take away from the fact that what we did was horrible and unconscionable.

For the record ... I knew people who'd been interred by the Japanese, including a POW captured at Corregidor and a missionary interred in a Philippine civilian camp. I have also listened to and talked with Japanese internees.

“2016 No Clinton No Bush!”

Since: Dec 06

Lafayette IN

#175723 Mar 11, 2014
Lyndi wrote:
<quoted text>
So in other words you know liberals don't play fair and you're good with that and would rather not discuss it. Just suffice it to say both parties do it. I suppose you think there's an equal playing field in the media too.
I'd ask you why if liberalism is so damn good why the need to play dirty at all but I think my chances of getting a straight answer from you are kind of small.
No, Lyndi.

I know PEOPLE don't play fair, and PEOPLE would include conservatives and liberals alike. This notion that my side's better than your side is silly.

You're getting a straight answer. You just don't like it. Apparently it doesn't compute, so you have to assume that it's a dodge, a ploy to avoid revealing the horrible truth that I really know we are the worserestest.

I think liberals play as fair as conservatives do - because they are both people. I think the more time we spend talking about each other, the likely it is we will do ANYTHING about any problem facing this country.
Lyndi

Sarasota, FL

#175724 Mar 11, 2014
WildWeirdWillie wrote:
<quoted text>Whoa, Nellie!!!
In my conversation with SKL, I was talking about American citizens being para.... worried about interment camps, and the argument that it could happen here again because it happened to the Japanese. Sure, it could, but a whole lotta things would have to happen first - things that don't appear anywhere on the horizon.
Now you're leaping from the United States to the Israeli/Iranian conflict. I'm 60 years old, and I can't jump that far.
That's not a different angle - that's a different question, and what I said to SKL can't be stretched to include that in any way. Just because I don't think Chris Clearwater needs to fear Cuomo barring him from New York or rounding up him and his and putting them in camps doesn't meant that I think Netanyahu doesn't need to fear for his country.
Oh, and kinda primitive the way that water is kinda wet.
It's not a big leap. It's the same thing in a different hemisphere. Most Americans (I think) have moved on from being suspicious of Asians and whatever else it was that prompted the camps. Various groups have NOT moved on when it comes to Jews. They've doubled down. And I don't need to tell you that the suffering of the Jews in the 40's swamps the suffering of the Japanese in American camps in the 40's. Are there different levels of racism? I think there are and when 6+ million of them can be exterminated like roaches and anti-Semitism is still breathing in that neck of the woods and elsewhere, you may want to rethink your opinion that public outrage can halt the possibility of such a thing happening again. I think you completely underestimate and minimize the power and depth of racism and anti-Semitism in particular. Like all feel good liberals, you think you can just ban it and ((( poof))) like magic, it'll be gone.

“2016 No Clinton No Bush!”

Since: Dec 06

Lafayette IN

#175725 Mar 11, 2014
Lyndi wrote:
<quoted text>
As learned as I'm sure you are on anti-Semitism and racism ( being a white chick from Oklahoma who hasn't studied it); as well as having the uncanny ability to quickly discern what is and what is not a red herring when discussing social evolution, you'll have to excuse me but I think I'll take his class this semester and maybe take yours next semester.
What's that I hear?

Was that the mutterings of an east coast elite dismissing the views of someone they don't agree with because they live in fly-over country?

No, that couldn't be. I'm sure there's a valid reason for mentioning where she lives.

Wonder what would happen if a liberal did that?

Hmmmmm ...

Since: Sep 10

San Francisco, CA

#175726 Mar 11, 2014
Lyndi wrote:
<quoted text>
It's not a big leap. It's the same thing in a different hemisphere. Most Americans (I think) have moved on from being suspicious of Asians and whatever else it was that prompted the camps. Various groups have NOT moved on when it comes to Jews. They've doubled down. And I don't need to tell you that the suffering of the Jews in the 40's swamps the suffering of the Japanese in American camps in the 40's. Are there different levels of racism? I think there are and when 6+ million of them can be exterminated like roaches and anti-Semitism is still breathing in that neck of the woods and elsewhere, you may want to rethink your opinion that public outrage can halt the possibility of such a thing happening again. I think you completely underestimate and minimize the power and depth of racism and anti-Semitism in particular. Like all feel good liberals, you think you can just ban it and ((( poof))) like magic, it'll be gone.
I understand.

You're just a little bit pregnant.
Lyndi

Sarasota, FL

#175727 Mar 11, 2014
WildWeirdWillie wrote:
<quoted text>No, Lyndi.
I know PEOPLE don't play fair, and PEOPLE would include conservatives and liberals alike. This notion that my side's better than your side is silly.
You're getting a straight answer. You just don't like it. Apparently it doesn't compute, so you have to assume that it's a dodge, a ploy to avoid revealing the horrible truth that I really know we are the worserestest.
I think liberals play as fair as conservatives do - because they are both people. I think the more time we spend talking about each other, the likely it is we will do ANYTHING about any problem facing this country.
Please provide me with the list of put out and angry liberal/democrat groups targeted by the IRS under G.W. Bush, G.H.W. Bush and any other republican POTUS you can think of who were stonewalled, jacked around and asked what they prayed for, what kind of underwear they wore and what books they read when attempting to get tax exempt status and while you're at it, please give me the dates those disgruntled liberal groups appeared before congress in the ensuing investigation. There was an investigation wasn't there? Oh and one other thing if it won't be too much trouble. Please provide me with the name of the Lois Lerner equivalent at the time who refused to TALK about what went down. I must have been out of the country or something. I missed all that.

There is NO comparison in the area of dirty play between hard core conservatives and hard core liberals. Liberals win in that arena, hands down. You know how I know? A lot of far right conservatives are scared of God's wrath for behaving badly, while liberals thinking they are God and have no such reservations.
Lyndi

Sarasota, FL

#175728 Mar 11, 2014
WildWeirdWillie wrote:
<quoted text>What's that I hear?
Was that the mutterings of an east coast elite dismissing the views of someone they don't agree with because they live in fly-over country?
No, that couldn't be. I'm sure there's a valid reason for mentioning where she lives.
Wonder what would happen if a liberal did that?
Hmmmmm ...
Don't overthink it, Willie. If you'd rather listen to the onslaught of JMO's from the white girl in Oklahoma unschooled on anti-Semitism rather than the Jew from Jerusalem who's lived anti-Semitism and studied it, then by all means go for it.
You go to Oklahoma. I'll go to a Kibbutz outside Tel Aviv and we'll test each other's knowledge at the end of the semester.

“2016 No Clinton No Bush!”

Since: Dec 06

Lafayette IN

#175729 Mar 11, 2014
Lyndi wrote:
<quoted text>
It's not a big leap. It's the same thing in a different hemisphere. Most Americans (I think) have moved on from being suspicious of Asians and whatever else it was that prompted the camps. Various groups have NOT moved on when it comes to Jews. They've doubled down. And I don't need to tell you that the suffering of the Jews in the 40's swamps the suffering of the Japanese in American camps in the 40's. Are there different levels of racism? I think there are and when 6+ million of them can be exterminated like roaches and anti-Semitism is still breathing in that neck of the woods and elsewhere, you may want to rethink your opinion that public outrage can halt the possibility of such a thing happening again. I think you completely underestimate and minimize the power and depth of racism and anti-Semitism in particular. Like all feel good liberals, you think you can just ban it and ((( poof))) like magic, it'll be gone.
Well, see, the leap was news flash's contention that I was speaking globally.

I wasn't speaking globally.

I was speaking about the United States. Just as Stalin has never been an American politician, Iran and Israel have never been among the states united.

Frankly, I don't know how anyone got the idea I was speaking globally.

Since I must talk globally ...

You can take what I said about the United States and extend it, at least in part, to Western Europe. The further east in Europe you go, the less that applies. When you get to the Middle East, it doesn't apply at all. Antisemitism is still a potent force in large parts of the world. I know this, and I know that wishing won't make it go away.

“2016 No Clinton No Bush!”

Since: Dec 06

Lafayette IN

#175730 Mar 11, 2014
Lyndi wrote:
<quoted text>
Don't overthink it, Willie. If you'd rather listen to the onslaught of JMO's from the white girl in Oklahoma unschooled on anti-Semitism rather than the Jew from Jerusalem who's lived anti-Semitism and studied it, then by all means go for it.
You go to Oklahoma. I'll go to a Kibbutz outside Tel Aviv and we'll test each other's knowledge at the end of the semester
I shouldn't criticize people for sniping one minute, then turn around and do it myself the next.

That probably wasn't as direct an admission that I was wrong to make that post as you'd like, but it's the best you're gonna get.

If you go to a Kibbutz outside Tel Aviv and poll residents about antisemitism, you'll get five opinions. Anyone who knows anything about Israel (or Jewish humor) should know that.

All that said ... if she got 'we were born that way' out of Yehoshua's essay, I don't think she read it. Don't think Oklahoma has anything to do that, though.

“2016 No Clinton No Bush!”

Since: Dec 06

Lafayette IN

#175731 Mar 11, 2014
Lyndi wrote:
<quoted text>
Please provide me with the list of put out and angry liberal/democrat groups targeted by the IRS under G.W. Bush, G.H.W. Bush and any other republican POTUS you can think of who were stonewalled, jacked around and asked what they prayed for, what kind of underwear they wore and what books they read when attempting to get tax exempt status and while you're at it, please give me the dates those disgruntled liberal groups appeared before congress in the ensuing investigation. There was an investigation wasn't there? Oh and one other thing if it won't be too much trouble. Please provide me with the name of the Lois Lerner equivalent at the time who refused to TALK about what went down. I must have been out of the country or something. I missed all that.
There is NO comparison in the area of dirty play between hard core conservatives and hard core liberals. Liberals win in that arena, hands down. You know how I know? A lot of far right conservatives are scared of God's wrath for behaving badly, while liberals thinking they are God and have no such reservations.
I'm sure you do believe that "there is NO comparison in the area of dirty play between hard core conservatives and hard core liberals".

I don't believe that. In spite of the fact that I'm a liberal, I don't believe the opposite is true either.

You seem to have trouble accepting that.

Now, I appreciate the flattery ... but it's not working.
Clearwater

Hollywood, FL

#175732 Mar 11, 2014
WildWeirdWillie wrote:
<quoted text>Whoa, Nellie!!!
In my conversation with SKL, I was talking about American citizens being para.... worried about interment camps, and the argument that it could happen here again because it happened to the Japanese. Sure, it could, but a whole lotta things would have to happen first - things that don't appear anywhere on the horizon.
Now you're leaping from the United States to the Israeli/Iranian conflict. I'm 60 years old, and I can't jump that far.
That's not a different angle - that's a different question, and what I said to SKL can't be stretched to include that in any way. Just because I don't think Chris Clearwater needs to fear Cuomo barring him from New York or rounding up him and his and putting them in camps doesn't meant that I think Netanyahu doesn't need to fear for his country.
Oh, and kinda primitive the way that water is kinda wet.
Please do provide the post where Clearwater said any such thing. In fact I'm quite sure while I did say I think Cuomo speaks out of hate for the right, I also said in reference to this we would be in a civil war long before we ever got anywhere close to that.

Since: Sep 10

San Francisco, CA

#175733 Mar 11, 2014
Lyndi wrote:
<quoted text>
Please provide me with the list of put out and angry liberal/democrat groups targeted by the IRS under G.W. Bush, G.H.W. Bush and any other republican POTUS you can think of who were stonewalled, jacked around and asked what they prayed for, what kind of underwear they wore and what books they read when attempting to get tax exempt status and while you're at it, please give me the dates those disgruntled liberal groups appeared before congress in the ensuing investigation. There was an investigation wasn't there? Oh and one other thing if it won't be too much trouble. Please provide me with the name of the Lois Lerner equivalent at the time who refused to TALK about what went down. I must have been out of the country or something. I missed all that.
There is NO comparison in the area of dirty play between hard core conservatives and hard core liberals. Liberals win in that arena, hands down. You know how I know? A lot of far right conservatives are scared of God's wrath for behaving badly, while liberals thinking they are God and have no such reservations.
Yes, you should be careful.

Even the paranoid are sometimes followed.

Since: Sep 10

San Francisco, CA

#175734 Mar 11, 2014
Lyndi wrote:
<quoted text>
Don't overthink it, Willie. If you'd rather listen to the onslaught of JMO's from the white girl in Oklahoma unschooled on anti-Semitism rather than the Jew from Jerusalem who's lived anti-Semitism and studied it, then by all means go for it.
You go to Oklahoma. I'll go to a Kibbutz outside Tel Aviv and we'll test each other's knowledge at the end of the semester.
Boy, do you enjoy playing the victim.

“2016 No Clinton No Bush!”

Since: Dec 06

Lafayette IN

#175735 Mar 11, 2014
Clearwater wrote:
<quoted text>Please do provide the post where Clearwater said any such thing. In fact I'm quite sure while I did say I think Cuomo speaks out of hate for the right, I also said in reference to this we would be in a civil war long before we ever got anywhere close to that.
In post #175659 you said "If he [Cuomo] got his way what happens to people he hates and would like removed from New York?"

There's no reason to assume from his words that he hates anyone or that he wants to remove anyone from New York.

That's how we got onto the camps, and people started talking about Stalin and Iran and Israel and ... did the guys on the grassy knoll make it into the conversation?
Lyndi

Sarasota, FL

#175736 Mar 11, 2014
Catcher1 wrote:
<quoted text>
Boy, do you enjoy playing the victim.
How would preferring to learn about anti-Semitism from a Jew named AB Yehoshua in Israel makes ME a victim?


You're an idiot.

“Custer @ LBH - Ooops”

Since: Nov 07

Bakersfield, CA

#175737 Mar 11, 2014
Catcher1 wrote:
<quoted text>
Yes, you should be careful.
Even the paranoid are sometimes followed.
Lyndi's right, but for you, "idiot" doesn't begin to cover it. You've shown now on several occasions, that you prefer stalking her to actually earning a living as an alleged lawyer.
Yer a fake, a phony and a charlatan. And what's worse is........

..........yer a worthless freakin' troll!

Since: Dec 07

Location hidden

#175738 Mar 12, 2014
WildWeirdWillie wrote:
<quoted text>What you hear me saying is that reasonable people can disagree about whether something like a joke is racist or not.
Personally, I donít feel reasonable people will disagree on what constitutes racial humor. In fact, I submit itís just the opposite. Kind of leaves us at odds with each other.
WildWeirdWillie wrote:
<quoted text>To make more of it than that ... to claim I'm saying racism is completely subjective - is an intellectual circle jerk.
Given the context by which we are discussing it, you in fact, did say it.

Yes?

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